On Lan

[Torome]

I was thinking about the last charge of the Malkieri at the end of ToM.  Though there may still be an eleventh hour save coming that keeps Lan from dying similar to Rand saving Maradon, I was thinking on if he died.

 

So, Lan is killed in this (which the viewing Min had of Nyn weeping over a grave implies as a very strong possibility) along with his people.  Now, when Mat blows the Horn of Valere, does Lan appear (along likely with Noal since he is Jain Farstrider).  And it is said that occasionally new people are added to the number, so if this were true, would Lan be a new Hero or an old one who has been spun out many times but his past lives were unknown.  I think that it would be appropriate, and atleast Nyneave will likely get to speak to him again.

 

~The Grave Is No Bar To My Call~ (gives me chills every time)

[Whizbang]

I don't imagine too many people are added each turning. I would expect only one or two, at most. TAR would get clogged with dead people, and the Wheel only needs so many heroes to keep things on track. So, if either comes to answer the call of the Horn, then they are most likely pre-existing heroes, not new adds.

 

Also, I don't think Lan will die. RJ doesn't seem to be like G. Martin, killing off people left and right. Yes, in this last book people will die, probably even major characters. But those people who have that "fated" love seem to have a plot shield.

 

Also, Lan's favorite colors are blue and green, so I don't see him putting on a red shirt any time soon.

[Ryan52]

My guess is he has been bound to the Horn long before this iteration.  He is the last King of Malkier and a huge part of the Dragon Reborn being found and kept safe from the Shadow until he was ready to proclaim himself, pretty significant roles in the story world.  Lan always seemed like one of RJ's pet characters to me, I would personally be shocked if he was outlined as just some random thread in the Pattern and not a bound Hero.

[acmeraptor]

@Ryan52  I get what you're saying but it seems like wishful thinking.  There haven't been any allusions to any hero being spun out just a short time prior to the Dragon Reborn (not that I think that is needed), so the same argument to be made for Lan could be applied to Matt and/or Perrin.  In fact it would be more likely I'd say in their cases being so strongly ta'veren, arguably, but we already know they aren't spun-out heroes.  If anything, his life accomplishments and possibly events of his death would make him a great candidate for the Wheel to add to its number.  My $0.02 anyway.

[Torome]

What I was saying about it possibly being Lan's first spinning is more of a musing on when heroes are first bound since, while it is incredibly rare, it does happen and who better?  However, Perrin would be a spun out hero because in Shadow Rising when he talks with Birgitte by the Tower of Genjei she points out his axe and says that he always chooses the same weapon, implying that they have known each other in past lives.  As for Mat nothing specific is stated since the old memories cloud things up.  For the most part though, the heroes don't know while alive who they were in a past life, aside from Rand.

[mbuehner]

I don't know about Lan being a hero of the horn. Don't get me wrong, he's a major badass... but he hasn't really done the kind of things you think about with the other heroes. He's not an everyday name in Randland like Birgette or Hawking, he hasn't really done the kinds of impossible deeds you would expect. Now if he actually WON at Tarwin's Gap, as opposed to dying a glorious death King Aemon style, he'd have a case.  Its like they say, its called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Really Really Good.

[acmeraptor]

However, Perrin would be a spun out hero because in Shadow Rising when he talks with Birgitte by the Tower of Genjei she points out his axe and says that he always chooses the same weapon, implying that they have known each other in past lives. 

 

I just reread that scene the other day but don't remember a mention of weapon choice, I'll have to take another gander when I get home.  My comment above was solely based off what I remember of the HotH only really commenting on Rand/LTT reborn.

[Viperswhip]

As to Lan and the Horn, I will be disappointed if he is a Hero of the Horn. He offered to kill to many innocent people for Moiraine for me to think he hasn't done it before.

[Torome]

I just looked that scene over and she doesn't mention the axe, but I knew that it was said somewhere where Perrin was in the Dream so I looked through and found it at the beginning of DR in the chapter 'Shadows Sleeping' where Lanfear came to him.  He is in extremely ornate armor and the only thing plain about him is the axe and- "A voice-his own- whispered in his mind that he would take it over any other weapon, had carried it thousands of times, in a hundred battles."  I think this implies Perrin has been spun-out numerous times and has usually carried the axe, though he has given it up in this life, he may take it again, or perhaps he has changed a key aspect of his soul and will carry the hammer in the next life.

 

Now, about Lan having done too many bad deeds to be a Hero, from what I understand the moral aspect seems to have little to do with whether or not you are bound.  As for him not being legendary enough, he seems to be fairly legendary among Warders who are all considered great warriors, and the Aiel seem to have extraordinary respect for him.  In PoD 'To Keep a Bargain' Aviendha considers that "she had grown up around dangerous men, but never one to match Aan'allein.  Had death been a man, she would have been him."  An opinion like that from an Aiel about a wetlander certainly makes him Hall of Fame and not just Hall of Really Really Good(though I like your Prime reference).

[Ryan52]

I don't know about Lan being a hero of the horn. Don't get me wrong, he's a major badass... but he hasn't really done the kind of things you think about with the other heroes. He's not an everyday name in Randland like Birgette or Hawking, he hasn't really done the kinds of impossible deeds you would expect. Now if he actually WON at Tarwin's Gap, as opposed to dying a glorious death King Aemon style, he'd have a case.  Its like they say, its called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Really Really Good.

 

I disagree and there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.  In the Borderlands he is well known and highly respected by anybody that is anybody (being royalty and all), the other Warders and AS treat him like a legend and place him in a separate category, even the Aiel know and respect him and they know nothing of Wetlanders.  By all accounts the author rated Lan as the best swordsman in the series.  We do not see a lot of Lan's exploits as much happens off-screen or is in the past relative to the main story, but there is a reason the guy is a living legend.  I think it is safe to say Lan is the kind of guy gleemen and bards would write stories of in the 4th Age.

[Ryan52]

As to Lan and the Horn, I will be disappointed if he is a Hero of the Horn. He offered to kill to many innocent people for Moiraine for me to think he hasn't done it before.

 

Rand has served the Dark One in some lives and been His champion, I would imagine in those lives he killed many more innocents and done more heinous things than Lan has ever imagined doing.  Hell, we have seen Rand kill a number of innocents and do some heinous things at times in this Turning, and he is Chief among the Heroes.  There has never been any clause or implication that a person had to be a saint to become a Hero of the Horn.

[Morden]

Really cant see Lan dying, he is the Aragorn of the WoT universe, if he dies Malkier dies and I really cannot see that happening after how much they have been through and the fact that he is literally taking the last of the Malkier to their deaths...

 

something has to pop up to save the day, RJ has a thing about people getting what they deserve.

[Torome]

I guess we just have to wait a few days to RAFO!

[nitavonne]

I think Lan will survive. He has lost too many people already. He is a true hero. He has made himself the man he is, without any superpowers or gifts. He is the Bat-man of the series.

Rand never bowed to the shadow. He has always been the champion of the Creator. He found out that huge truth in Veins Of Gold.

[KrisAnton]

He didn't bow to the shadow when he used the TP to destroy the male a'dam? Was he the champion of light when he nuked the fortress Graendal was hiding in? I don't hope Lan will die, but I do want to see some serious carnage other than 2nd tier characters. LAN dying without leaving an heir to Nynaeve would be dark and more realistic than him being saved at the 11th hour by Rand/HoV/Nynaeve and her Battle Braid...

[Bromo Sapien]

Yes, he was still the Champion of Light when he did those things. He just went down the wrong path. He came close to abandoning the cause but didn't. His role as the Champion of Light is determined by one thing and one thing only: fighting the Dark One and stopping him (in one way or another). He has in every single life or else the pattern would be eradicated.

 

As for Lan, if anyone is getting added, it's him. I doubt he's already a Hero just because we haven't seen foreshadowing of a similar Hero from the past. Plus, the Horn did not affect him at Falme, as I think RJ said it would to Heroes spun out at the time (I could very easily be misremembering this last part. In fact, I think I am). He has consistently shown heroic attributes and a deep sense of honor. I would love to see him be raised to a Hero and would not be surprised in the least.

 

One last thing: the fact that he isn't an "everyday name like Birgitte and Hawkwing" doesn't matter. They are always spun out with new names. Birgitte has mentioned dozens of names she had and has mentioned that she never knows she's a Hero until she dies.

[Kuston]

If anyone from the books was to be added to the heros of the horn my best guess would be Matt and Perrin since I dont think that either are actually a hero reborn.  Matt maybe a hero as we have had things in past books that lead to to believe he is at the very least a high ranking general from Manetheren reborn, if not Aeomon himself.  (Though since he was never I dentified by the heros like Rand was it would lead you to think neither of them are currently tied to the wheel.)  (This may have been answered somewhere else that I'm not aware of, and if it was I appologize for not knowing if these two being tied/untied was finally cleaned up by rj at some point.)

 

Jain was turned to the shadow (forcibly or not) for a good portion of his life, I would highly doubt those actions would bind him to the wheel as tightly as a hero, and Lan, has done nothing but play second fiddle to Mo, Rand, and Ny the entire series.  Lan is a great character, and the last charge of the Mal's is a interesting story line, but Lan creating world shaking and pattern defining events...... helping Rand do it, yes.. himself.... nope.

[Bromo Sapien]

It's not always "world-shaking events" that make a hero. The major story of one of Birgitte's stories was simply going into the Tower of Ghenjei. Nothing earth-shattering, just impressive, like Lan at Tarwin's Gap (I assume). I would never say Lan played second fiddle. He may have been Moiraine's Warder, but there was a mutual respect of equals there and there were multiple times when he overruled her. And just because he was a teacher to Rand et al doesn't mean he was second fiddle. He has committed numerous heroic acts and is almost a stereotype of the stoic, reluctant hero with ideal values.

[Orderofolde]

I don't imagine too many people are added each turning. I would expect only one or two, at most. TAR would get clogged with dead people, and the Wheel only needs so many heroes to keep things on track. So, if either comes to answer the call of the Horn, then they are most likely pre-existing heroes, not new adds.

 

Also, I don't think Lan will die. RJ doesn't seem to be like G. Martin, killing off people left and right. Yes, in this last book people will die, probably even major characters. But those people who have that "fated" love seem to have a plot shield.

 

Also, Lan's favorite colors are blue and green, so I don't see him putting on a red shirt any time soon.

Also we have Rand's promise to Nynaeve that he will not leave Lan to die.  It is in the anticipation of if he will be saved, trying to puzzle out the how of it.

[Shami]

I think it's given Lan won't die, least on start of the book. Min's viewing bout him was baby with sword - while it's like Lan's past, RJ said Min's visions were always bout future. If Nynaeve was pregnant, it would show already as its been a while since they last met. I'd say Lan is safe till he gets to play with Nynaeve again.

[Yemini]

I believe that Lan will be saved.. most likely in a very close call. If he is not and falls, my guess would be that it is done in order to give Nyn a reason to go darkside. Not sure why I'm thinking that about Nyn.. just feels like it'd fit in somehow. Temperamental, already stated that she's pick Lan before anything else. Could almost see her going against Rand out of vengeance. But then again.. Lan will most likely be saved.

[Rand the Plumber]

I think that Lan will sheath the sword but, as has been suggested, it won't be right at the very beginning and there's a good chance that he and Nynaeve will meet and have their conjugals before he goes off in his blaze of glory. It seems fitting that the Uncrowned King of Malkier, who saw his country betrayed and destroyed by the shadow, should avenge its death and so make his own ending. His child, should he have one, will not be Malkieri in the sense of having been born there - since there is no Malkier in which to be born. The child will have great honour through its heritage, but it will be a new beginning (ahem) in that particular story.

 

A Hero? I'd like to think so, but I suspect that we'll never know the answer to that.

[aunt_pol]

It looks v bleak for Lan at Tarwin's Gap, but to be honest it looked fierce bad for Graendal when Rand lit up the forest and blew the place out of existence. To be honest I'll be fairly annoyed if it transpires that she was saved to be Shaidar Haran's new toy while Lan dies. Him being added to Hero ranks would make up for it somewhat. He just has to. Remember his first pov in New Spring, facing the Aiel and they all roared Aan'allein and left the battlefield? The man's name is so on the list.

[Viperswhip]

 

As to Lan and the Horn, I will be disappointed if he is a Hero of the Horn. He offered to kill to many innocent people for Moiraine for me to think he hasn't done it before.

 

Rand has served the Dark One in some lives and been His champion, I would imagine in those lives he killed many more innocents and done more heinous things than Lan has ever imagined doing.  Hell, we have seen Rand kill a number of innocents and do some heinous things at times in this Turning, and he is Chief among the Heroes.  There has never been any clause or implication that a person had to be a saint to become a Hero of the Horn.

Umm what? I don't think he has, Rand doesn't seem to think so, and I believe the whole Wheel of Time would have ended if had. Rand hasn't killed someone to "keep them quiet" or to prevent someone from knowing something, which is a weak assed reason to kill someone.

[XoMeltdownoX]

As to Lan and the Horn, I will be disappointed if he is a Hero of the Horn. He offered to kill to many innocent people for Moiraine for me to think he hasn't done it before.

 

Rand has served the Dark One in some lives and been His champion, I would imagine in those lives he killed many more innocents and done more heinous things than Lan has ever imagined doing.  Hell, we have seen Rand kill a number of innocents and do some heinous things at times in this Turning, and he is Chief among the Heroes.  There has never been any clause or implication that a person had to be a saint to become a Hero of the Horn.

Umm what? I don't think he has, Rand doesn't seem to think so, and I believe the whole Wheel of Time would have ended if had. Rand hasn't killed someone to "keep them quiet" or to prevent someone from knowing something, which is a weak assed reason to kill someone.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 16th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

(inaudible)

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.