Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[Terez]

There were quite a few hints about homosexuals in the book. RJ was more subtle while Brandon was more direct... I don't recall the scenes exactly but I think there is one instance in APOD when Rand gets attacked by the renegade Asha'man, tries to escape and stumbles into a room...

 

If anything, Brandon was more subtle.

[BFG]

 

 

There were quite a few hints about homosexuals in the book. RJ was more subtle while Brandon was more direct... I don't recall the scenes exactly but I think there is one instance in APOD when Rand gets attacked by the renegade Asha'man, tries to escape and stumbles into a room...

 

If anything, Brandon was more subtle.

This is something I don't see written very often! :)

[orient]

Really minor thing, but was I the only one who felt that he overused the word 'bloodied' in the book? I kept coming across the word every few pages, and it distracted me to no end.

 

 

 

What was the point of showing homosexuality in this book?  I ask this in terms that I don't recall seeing it in any of the previous books, yet it seemed to have been thrown in AMOL twice, saying so-and-so prefers men.     I don't have a problem with it being there and it in no way takes away from the story for me, but why for the first time in the last book of a 14 book series?  I pretty sure I didn't see it before but I could be mistaken.

It seemed out of place to me. Who knows...maybe Brandon felt a need to make sure everyone understand homosexuality exists in Randland.

 

It just seemed so forced though. I approved of the concept of homosexuality in the WoT universe, but I was expecting something slightly more subtle than 'oh by the way, he prefers men'.

[Terez]

How is that unsubtle?

[smileyman]

Really minor thing, but was I the only one who felt that he overused the word 'bloodied' in the book? I kept coming across the word every few pages, and it distracted me to no end.

 

It was the return of flaming bloody Uno, who can't very flaming well speak a bloody word without bloody cursing. Of course the word bloody is going to be bloody well used a flaming great deal. The amount of swearing in the books has fluctuated based on where the action is and who's around. This didn't feel at all to me like it was too used, especially since most of it was restricted to Uno. 

[orient]

 

Really minor thing, but was I the only one who felt that he overused the word 'bloodied' in the book? I kept coming across the word every few pages, and it distracted me to no end.

 

It was the return of flaming bloody Uno, who can't very flaming well speak a bloody word without bloody cursing. Of course the word bloody is going to be bloody well used a flaming great deal. The amount of swearing in the books has fluctuated based on where the action is and who's around. This didn't feel at all to me like it was too used, especially since most of it was restricted to Uno. 

 

No sorry I didn't mean bloody as in the insult, I meant bloodied as in the adjective. So and so runs back from the battlefield, his face bloodied etc.

[orient]

How is that unsubtle?

 

Maybe unsubtle was a bad word. It just felt like he was telling us for the sake of telling us. There was no point to Algarin/Emarin or Baldhere liking men, it just seemed like they told us because they'd promised to tell us. With Elaida and Meidani, and Galina Casban and whatshername, there was a point about telling us. It explained things about the characters' interactions with each other. With Emarin and Baldhere, mentioning their sexuality added as much to our knowledge of their personality as mentioning that they liked to drink hot chocolate on a rainy day.

[Matthew79]

 

 

where the hell did 'Shaisam'(which I can't help but say as Shazzam! like Beyonce says in the last Austin Powers movie) come frm as a name, did it just get established or have I missed in ToM?

as far as I can tell it comes out of nowhere

I could not help noticing that if you take Shaitan, and go back one letter in the alphabet with the 5th and 7th letters you get Shaisam.

[Agitel]

 

 

 

where the hell did 'Shaisam'(which I can't help but say as Shazzam! like Beyonce says in the last Austin Powers movie) come frm as a name, did it just get established or have I missed in ToM?

as far as I can tell it comes out of nowhere

I could not help noticing that if you take Shaitan, and go back one letter in the alphabet with the 5th and 7th letters you get Shaisam.

 

Good catch about the similarities between the words, especially the root, 'shai'. I'm wondering if this is another allusion.

[Terez]

 

How is that unsubtle?

 

Maybe unsubtle was a bad word. It just felt like he was telling us for the sake of telling us. There was no point to Algarin/Emarin or Baldhere liking men, it just seemed like they told us because they'd promised to tell us. With Elaida and Meidani, and Galina Casban and whatshername, there was a point about telling us. It explained things about the characters' interactions with each other.

 

So what was the point with Seonid?

 

"Perhaps I  was mistaken after all," Sulin said dryly. "But I will tell her."  Turning, she paused. "Tell me something. Teryl Wynter and Furen Alharra  are close to Seonid Traighan—like first-brothers with a first-sister; she does not like men as men—yet they offered to take her punishment for her. How could they shame her so?"

 

How is that any different from Baldhere and Emarin?

 

With Emarin and Baldhere, mentioning their sexuality added as much to our knowledge of their personality as mentioning that they liked to drink hot chocolate on a rainy day.

 

And yet it wouldn't bother you if you learned that either liked to drink hot chocolate on a rainy day.

[XXX]

Wht happened to the maiden Sulin,she was everywhere in one book then was sent off with Perrin then disappeared. Did she die?

[Owyn]

I had thought that shiasm was spun out by the pattern in case Rand went ahead and killed the Dark One to replace him.  It was mentioned that the pattern was about balance and there had to be Evil to balance the good.

 

Once Rand imprisoned the Dark One the pattern allowed Shiasm to just...die.

[smileyman]

 

 

How is that unsubtle?

 

Maybe unsubtle was a bad word. It just felt like he was telling us for the sake of telling us. There was no point to Algarin/Emarin or Baldhere liking men, it just seemed like they told us because they'd promised to tell us. With Elaida and Meidani, and Galina Casban and whatshername, there was a point about telling us. It explained things about the characters' interactions with each other.

 

So what was the point with Seonid?

 

 

>"Perhaps I  was mistaken after all," Sulin said dryly. "But I will tell her."  Turning, she paused. "Tell me something. Teryl Wynter and Furen Alharra  are close to Seonid Traighan—like first-brothers with a first-sister; she does not like men as men—yet they offered to take her punishment for her. How could they shame her so?"

 

 

How is that any different from Baldhere and Emarin?

 

With Emarin and Baldhere, mentioning their sexuality added as much to our knowledge of their personality as mentioning that they liked to drink hot chocolate on a rainy day.

 

And yet it wouldn't bother you if you learned that either liked to drink hot chocolate on a rainy day.

 

 

Thank you. That's a perfect analogy. It's one thing to complain about it if it's mentioned every other chapter (e.g. Nynaeve tugging on her braid when she was angry), but when it's just casually dropped and no fuss or muss made about it? Especially when there isn't any criticism labled at how unsubtle the heterosexual relationships are. 

[Oliver]

I finished the book yesterday and wants time to think about it.

 

I liked it not as much as ToM or as tSR which a my fans but ot was a good book.

 

Things I liked Perrin and his whole arc. Brandons ability to kill of characters and make you feel it. I was surprised at how sad I was over Siuan. The end was really we

Written aNd I was happy that it ended with an open ending.

 

Things I didn't like

The book felt like it was a lot of filler. With most WoT books I feel there is an arc in this one it felt like we could have cut out a lot of the begining and gone straight to the final battle. The side characters... I felt like they had scenes written in just to have them there. No real point to a lot of their stories although the Thom scenes were fantastic. I enjoyed the read and I was happy with the ending it just doesn't rate as high as most of the other books. Also why no mention of elaida I mean she is a major character in most of the other books and you know she was fighting in the battle when the eal was made between egween and the seanchan about channeled able to leave I thought for sure that elaida would have been there and jumped at the chance. It would have been a great twist because she probably feels she is still the amyrlin and if freed might try to get the position back. Wild have been a great way to add some chaos.

[Oliver]

 

I just re read this sorry for the typos o wrote it on my iPad and the keyboard is not the best

 

 

 

 

I finished the book yesterday and wants time to think about it.

I liked it not as much as ToM or as tSR which a my fans but ot was a good book.

Things I liked Perrin and his whole arc. Brandons ability to kill of characters and make you feel it. I was surprised at how sad I was over Siuan. The end was really we

Written aNd I was happy that it ended with an open ending.

Things I didn't like

The book felt like it was a lot of filler. With most WoT books I feel there is an arc in this one it felt like we could have cut out a lot of the begining and gone straight to the final battle. The side characters... I felt like they had scenes written in just to have them there. No real point to a lot of their stories although the Thom scenes were fantastic. I enjoyed the read and I was happy with the ending it just doesn't rate as high as most of the other books. Also why no mention of elaida I mean she is a major character in most of the other books and you know she was fighting in the battle when the eal was made between egween and the seanchan about channeled able to leave I thought for sure that elaida would have been there and jumped at the chance. It would have been a great twist because she probably feels she is still the amyrlin and if freed might try to get the position back. Wild have been a great way to add some chaos.

[Randommer]

Sorry, wacky theory I must post somewhere before I forget: What if Nakomi is Rand in disguise? When Avi encountered her, she seemed to be doing Rand's new Pattern-bending stuff, and we haven't seen anyone else who can do that. A lot of the stuff she said made it sound like she was from a different time ('I am far from my roof, and yet not far at all. Perhaps it is far from me'), and if there was ever a canditate for time-travel, it would seem to be Rand now, having stepped outside of time and the Pattern and seemingly gained some weird understandings while there. He would be concerned enough about the fate of the Aiel to do it, and Avi may tell him about her trip at some point. He would also be concerned enough about his own survival post-TG to turn up at Shayol Ghul.

 

This is probably wrong, but at the same time, Rand is now weirdly the best candidate from 'known' things. Anything else would have to be something completely new, and I really don't think she's the Creator. Just doesn't fit with the 'I WILL TAKE NO PART' philosophy. I had thought she was a Jenn Aiel of some sort or Verin at a stretch, but I don't see the Jenn Aiel turning up at Shayol Ghul and Verin's dead.

[Reader2]

So, in Rand's speech to the DO, who is he referencing? I'm trying to think who might fit into that, but really struggling?

* It was about a woman, torn and beaten down, cast from her throne and made a puppet—a woman who had crawled when she had to. That woman still fought. - Erm, Tigraine, but she's dead, and isn't fighting? Morgase? Siuan? Who is important enough to Rand who fits this? Avi, Min, Elayne don't seem to fit. Egwene? But then who is the last one?

* It was about a man that love repeatedly forsook, a man who found relevance in a world that others would have let pass them by. A man who remembered stories, and who took fool boys under his wing when the smarter move would have been to keep on walking. That man still fought. - Thom

* It was about a woman with a secret, a hope for the future. A woman who had hunted the truth before others could. A woman who had given her life, then had it returned. That woman still fought. - Moraine

* It was about a man whose family was taken from him, but who stood tall in his sorrow and protected those he could. - Perrin

* It was about a woman who refused to believe that she could not help, could not Heal those who had been harmed. - Nynaeve

* It was about a hero who insisted with every breath that he was anything but a hero. - Mat

* It was about a woman who would not bend her back while she was beaten, and who shone with the Light for all who watched. - Egwene?Any help?

 

There are only a few who fit that first one at all, Morgase, Alliandre, Amathera? None seem like a perfect fit, maybe Morgase is the closest, her and Alliandre are at least there, Amathera never was much more that insubstantial fluff. It's odd though that all the rest are people who were in that first journey from the Two Rivers, so why mention just one that wasn't.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

Two questions still burn deeply in my mind, sorry if these have already been answered before:

 

How is the DO "not the enemy"???? Rand decides to lock him up as opposed to eliminating him?

 

and also, how is Elayne Turned when the DO is apparently "killed"? How is it that a person can turn to the shadow if the shadow no longer even exists?!

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I had thought that shiasm was spun out by the pattern in case Rand went ahead and killed the Dark One to replace him.  It was mentioned that the pattern was about balance and there had to be Evil to balance the good.

 

Once Rand imprisoned the Dark One the pattern allowed Shiasm to just...die.

 

Dude, I have no idea if you're right, but if that were the case, it completely explains Fain's story line in a way that is line with the books, makes sense, and makes sense of his quick ending. Very cool!

[Bluedust9]

lol i love how suttree is just sniping randomly at some of the most poingant - but much overlooked - displays of sloppy writing throughout this thing.  there are literally so many examples, at least in my mind, that i cant begin to name them all.

 

I keep getting in trouble for pointing out your gimmick, but it's seriously so tired. At least we know Valan Luca wasn't the real Dragon but your posts are so predictable. Form some new thoughts please?

[Bluedust9]

What was the point of showing homosexuality in this book?  I ask this in terms that I don't recall seeing it in any of the previous books, yet it seemed to have been thrown in AMOL twice, saying so-and-so prefers men.     I don't have a problem with it being there and it in no way takes away from the story for me, but why for the first time in the last book of a 14 book series?  I pretty sure I didn't see it before but I could be mistaken.

 

I honestly never noticed it. And I have no desire to look back. There's pillow friends, why not? The point of showing it is to show that WoT is a real world.

[F Horn of Valere]

How is the DO "not the enemy"???? Rand decides to lock him up as opposed to eliminating him?

 

I interpreted this as more of a social commentary. Mankind is the only true enemy of itself.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

How is the DO "not the enemy"???? Rand decides to lock him up as opposed to eliminating him?

 

I interpreted this as more of a social commentary. Mankind is the only true enemy of itself.

Indeed. It is also true. 

 

The DO needs humanity to complete its victory. 

 

Without human allies, the DO is virtually powerless. Only when humans give in to the DO can the DO actually win. 

 

The DO represents a choice, which many would call evil. it is not the only evil, but it is the biggest choice of an evil. The DO literally cannot win until humanity has given up. The Pattern prevents it. Of course, that doesn't mean that if only 1 good person still lives, the DO cannot win. I believe it is on a grand scale. If humanity as a whole gives in. The Pattern spins out the corrective mechanisms that gives people the ability to win - but ultimately it is their choice. Rand is really only a proxy. If he died or turned, another would come and preserve the Pattern. (As has been confirmed, RJ said that in previous turnings the Dragon has gone to the Shadow yet it only resulted in a draw, not a Shadow win.) 

 

That is why Rand chose to Seal the DO away, not kill it. (if that would have been possible) It is a matter of choice. He realised that the DO cannot win if humanity fought. IF the DO does manage to win, then humanity would have been subverted so much they deserved to have lost. Taking away the choice would have been no better than the DO forcing people to his own will. 

 

It is a thing of the Pattern, a DO is needed. It is essential for the Wheel. It is a test. Look at how the DO was re-discovered. Humanity had reached an apex - nearly all evils (nearly) were non-existent. Humanity grew complacent, unchecked and stagnant - so the DO was re-introduced, to revitalise humanity, to test it. 

 

It has been mentioned elsewhere but the Pattern was likely preparing a new DO in case Rand decided to kill the DO. As much as I have always hated the idea, it does fit. Shaisam grew in power and made its way to Shayol Ghul. Until the moment that Rand decided to Seal the DO. Then, there was no more use for it, and Mat was at hand to kill it. 

 

The Wheel needs the evil of a DO. But it also needs it contained, because subjecting humanity to never-ending DO attacks would be torture. Instead, it locks the DO out until the time comes when it is once again needed. 

 

Point being - all of this requires humanity/mortal sentient creatures. Without that, there would be no way for the DO to even enter the Pattern. After all, it was humans who drilled the bore. Humans who created Shadowspawn. Humans who used balefire. Humans who killed one another. 

 

All that is attriubted to the DO requires human choice. Turning a person to the Shadow is unique, however, it requires humans to do it. People have to choose to Turn someone - just the same as they can choose to kill or hurt a person. Grey Men offer their souls - it is a choice, the DO can't just take someone's soul. 

 

Of course, it is very complex, the DO has power of its own, but it can't actively use it. All of the DO's power is essentially either a product of its being, or a reaction to human interaction. Like the Taint, it was a reaction to Saidin touching the DO - not an actual attack. The True Power is merely the essence of the DO, a human needs to actually use it. Bubbles of evil are simply another product of the DO's being, random, not directed by the DO. 

 

I could go on to explain further, but I don't want to clog the thread up. 

[Arran]

 

 

 

 

where the hell did 'Shaisam'(which I can't help but say as Shazzam! like Beyonce says in the last Austin Powers movie) come frm as a name, did it just get established or have I missed in ToM?

as far as I can tell it comes out of nowhere

I could not help noticing that if you take Shaitan, and go back one letter in the alphabet with the 5th and 7th letters you get Shaisam.

 

Good catch about the similarities between the words, especially the root, 'shai'. I'm wondering if this is another allusion.

 

Someone on another part of the forums pointed out that Shai is 'Dark' in the Old Tongue, and that Sam is 'Destroyer'. Kind of like SHAIdar Haran. With apparently directly translates to Dark Hand, but is known as Hand of the Dark.

 

So Dark Destroyer, Destroyer of the Dark. One of those things.

[waffle]

Two questions still burn deeply in my mind, sorry if these have already been answered before:

 

How is the DO "not the enemy"???? Rand decides to lock him up as opposed to eliminating him?

 

and also, how is Elayne Turned when the DO is apparently "killed"? How is it that a person can turn to the shadow if the shadow no longer even exists?!

 

She was "turned" in the other direction by the DO not existing. And that's just as bad. According to Rand (well Sanderson/Jordan).