Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[Callandora]

The creator is tied to a lot of people's religious beliefs so that may be where the reluctance to trying to explain Nakomi comes from. Sex and religion are two subjects that should be treated with care

[Suttree]

I thought it was clear since avi's vision that the Aiel would be peacekeepers. I even posted a few times on it and people were hating.

 

Where there really some people that didn't like that? Seemed like it was the most prevalenttheory that I saw.

 

Why will the treaty "nullify" what the White Tower is? The treaty exactly like Compact of the Ten Nations, and the compact was (suspected of) being influenced by the White Tower.Sure, some parts of the White Tower (especially Reds and Greens) are losing their contemporary functions and will redefine themselves for post-LB future. But the others (Yellows, Browns, Whites) will continue what they always do, and will benefit from the Peace. Blues and Grays might need to adjust a little. The Grays already took a deep interest in Travelling weaves, maybe will play as a "communication Ajah" in the future?

The compact of the Ten Nations was totally WT influenced. The various Queens who signed it were mostly AS. Regardles the AS did not sign it and really there has never been a need to. Tar Valon has neve declared war or fought to expan it's borders. By signing the treaty they let their secular power be stripped after 3,000 years and no one even so much as commented on it. It essentially ends their role of being above the other nations. It would have been one things if the WT pushed for guidance on disputes and the Aiel inforced it militarily(not saying that is the right way to go, just that what AS would have pushed for). It's a sea change for the WT and huge loss of prestige that passed with nary a comment.

[Terez]

Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

[Viperswhip]

I am with you on this one Terez, Nakomi was just as annoyingly mysterious as Verin and even a little bit like Verin in seeming oblivious to the world around her, which was also clearly an act. I think Nakomi's very behaviour supports the Verin theory.

[Suttree]

Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

+1

[Amandera]

Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

I agree.

[MarkDiLillo]

Only issue I have with Nakomi = Verin theory is that there is literally not a shred of evidence to support it.  It's just our best guess right now.  If this were the case, why wouldn't there be a shred of evidence somewhere to at least SUGGEST this theory?

 

Has anyone found the "hint" that appears between 37 and the Epilogue yet?

[Amandera]

She appears to Rand a second time after the Horn is blown. That's the hint. The first one was to Aviendha in TAR.

[Terez]

There's actually a lot of evidence for it, really. Mostly it's the personality, particularly the rambling, which is what made most of us think of Verin in the first place. But Nokomis was apparently the (mythological) person who taught the shamans how to enter the dream world, which is a parallel to giving Egwene the stone ring ter'angreal.

[MarkDiLillo]

She appears to Rand a second time after the Horn is blown. That's the hint. The first one was to Aviendha in TAR.

 

But we have absolutely nothing to point towards Nakomi being Verin.  It's just a wild guess.  She may well be a HotH, but we only choose Verin based on a gut feeling.

[Callandora]

Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

How would Nakomi's communication with Avi and helping Rand after he seals the DO "undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world" Remember she meets Rand AFTER he seals the bore. Can't say that  she is a creator's avatar interfering or helping Rand with the fight cause that fight was over

[Viperswhip]

We've told you, if Thom can can pick out who people are not based on their walk, can we not make sound guesses based on similar personalities?

 

It was almost certainly Nakomi by the cave. I guess a random ancient Aeil could feel that type of connection to Rand, but Verin seems like a more likely candidate to care enough to help him out there.

[MarkDiLillo]

There's actually a lot of evidence for it, really. Mostly it's the personality, particularly the rambling, which is what made most of us think of Verin in the first place. But Nokomis was apparently the (mythological) person who taught the shamans how to enter the dream world, which is a parallel to giving Egwene the stone ring ter'angreal.

 

OK that bit about the ring ter'angreal has me convinced then.

[MarkDiLillo]

We've told you, if Thom can can pick out who people are not based on their walk, can we not make sound guesses based on similar personalities?

 

It was almost certainly Nakomi by the cave. I guess a random ancient Aeil could feel that type of connection to Rand, but Verin seems like a more likely candidate to care enough to help him out there.

 

Nope.  That's not how things work in the real world.  :)  You need evidence in the real world.

[lilltempest]

 

I thought it was clear since avi's vision that the Aiel would be peacekeepers. I even posted a few times on it and people were hating.

Where there really some people that didn't like that? Seemed like it was the most prevalenttheory that I saw.

 

>Why will the treaty "nullify" what the White Tower is? The treaty exactly like Compact of the Ten Nations, and the compact was (suspected of) being influenced by the White Tower.Sure, some parts of the White Tower (especially Reds and Greens) are losing their contemporary functions and will redefine themselves for post-LB future. But the others (Yellows, Browns, Whites) will continue what they always do, and will benefit from the Peace. Blues and Grays might need to adjust a little. The Grays already took a deep interest in Travelling weaves, maybe will play as a "communication Ajah" in the future?

The compact of the Ten Nations was totally WT influenced. The various Queens who signed it were mostly AS. Regardles the AS did not sign it and really there has never been a need to. Tar Valon has neve declared war or fought to expan it's borders. By signing the treaty they let their secular power be stripped after 3,000 years and no one even so much as commented on it. It essentially ends their role of being above the other nations. It would have been one things if the WT pushed for guidance on disputes and the Aiel inforced it militarily(not saying that is the right way to go, just that what AS would have pushed for). It's a sea change for the WT and huge loss of prestige that passed with nary a comment.

 

My take on it was that Rand did to them (and Egwene) what Egwene had done to the Hall so many times - he got them to agree to something that sounded reasonable to them without them really thinking it through because there was so much else going on. I don't doubt that they'll try to stick their noses in, but now nations can tell the Aiel to make the AS butt out. No doubt Cadsuane understands what Rand did, but she may see, at this point, that he was right to get strip some of the Tower's power and prestiege until they can earn the place they had before.

 

As for them pushing for giving "guidance" on disputes, there is no way Rand would've agreed - his whole point was that the Aiel have no interest other than honor. The Aes Sedai have always had the interest of elevating the WT and would do whatever fit their interests the best (like trying to put more WT-friendly rulers on thrones)...that does not serve the world, it serves the WT. If it happened to help others, that was merely coincidence. I think it's good that the Aiel are taking that place. They won't put up with AS crap and will keep the WT from getting a stranglehold on the world.

 

Egwene likely realized what the agreement meant, but she thought that, because the Wise Ones were her friends, she could manipulate them into letting the WT keep power and, possibly, doing exactly what you suggest. I think that was part of the reason that the clan chiefs had to be included as well - they wouldn't be as influenced by Egwene. Either way, it worked out for the best.

[mgns]

I have no idea what the Green Ajah is going to do now. 

 

Hunt shadowspawn, maybe. There's also Shara to deal with. And whatever comes rising out of the ashes of Seanchan.

[Viperswhip]

 

 

I thought it was clear since avi's vision that the Aiel would be peacekeepers. I even posted a few times on it and people were hating.

Where there really some people that didn't like that? Seemed like it was the most prevalenttheory that I saw.

 

>Why will the treaty "nullify" what the White Tower is? The treaty exactly like Compact of the Ten Nations, and the compact was (suspected of) being influenced by the White Tower.Sure, some parts of the White Tower (especially Reds and Greens) are losing their contemporary functions and will redefine themselves for post-LB future. But the others (Yellows, Browns, Whites) will continue what they always do, and will benefit from the Peace. Blues and Grays might need to adjust a little. The Grays already took a deep interest in Travelling weaves, maybe will play as a "communication Ajah" in the f

uture?

The compact of the Ten Nations was totally WT influenced. The various Queens who signed it were mostly AS. Regardles the AS did not sign it and really there has never been a need to. Tar Valon has neve declared war or fought to expan it's borders. By signing the treaty they let their secular power be stripped after 3,000 years and no one even so much as commented on it. It essentially ends their role of being above the other nations. It would have been one things if the WT pushed for guidance on disputes and the Aiel inforced it militarily(not saying that is the right way to go, just that what AS would have pushed for). It's a sea change for the WT and huge loss of prestige that passed with nary a comment.

My take on it was that Rand did to them (and Egwene) what Egwene had done to the Hall so many times - he got them to agree to something that sounded reasonable to them without them really thinking it through because there was so much else going on. I don't doubt that they'll try to stick their noses in, but now nations can tell the Aiel to make the AS butt out. No doubt Cadsuane understands what Rand did, but she may see, at this point, that he was right to get strip some of the Tower's power and prestiege until they can earn the place they had before.

 

As for them pushing for giving "guidance" on disputes, there is no way Rand would've agreed - his whole point was that the Aiel have no interest other than honor. The Aes Sedai have always had the interest of elevating the WT and would do whatever fit their interests the best (like trying to put more WT-friendly rulers on thrones)...that does not serve the world, it serves the WT. If it happened to help others, that was merely coincidence. I think it's good that the Aiel are taking that place. They won't put up with AS crap and will keep the WT from getting a stranglehold on the world.

 

Egwene likely realized what the agreement meant, but she thought that, because the Wise Ones were her friends, she could manipulate them into letting the WT keep power and, possibly, doing exactly what you suggest. I think that was part of the reason that the clan chiefs had to be included as well - they wouldn't be as influenced by Egwene. Either way, it worked out for the best.

 

But it does not prohibit the Tower from guiding nations of mediating disputes. I don't think it has reduced their influence very much, if at all. They were never an aggressor, and the next leader of any nation may not feel like the Treaty should limit them. So, they are the diplomacy arm of the new treaty, the Aiel are the stick.

[KakitaOCU]

Mark, you need evidence to convict, you only need to "know" to act or be sure. :D

 

Aside from the match up of the original Nakomi teaching dreaming and Verin giving Egwene the ring, here are my thoughts on the Verin-Nakomi theory.

 

First. I think Nakomi is clearly a hero. In T'A'R with Aviendha and then in the flesh after the horn is blown.

 

Second. Now to Verin. Nakomi was not present when the Horn was blown in TGH. True, we didn't get a FULL description of all the heroes, but as many have pointed out, Jordan is the master of forshadowing, I think he would have at least mentioned a brief description.

 

So now we have the idea of a Hero who was alive in a normal life of some sort during TGH but was back in T'A'R by ToM. Verin had died in the prior book.

 

Third: As Terez said, the personalities are incredibly similar. Beyond that, I did see a fondness for the Aiel in Verin's life, she took her time as an "Apprentice" almost without an issue and seemed to have a great deal of respsect for them.

 

Fourth. Why did she then appear as Nakomi instead of as Verin again? Well, she did just reveal herself as Black Ajah. She may trust Egwene to see her as a hero, but at her death she was very clearly concerned about what her legacy would be seen as by everyone. If I were a hero, and I knew there was a very strong chance that by the time I'm showing up everyone would see my last life as a villain, I'd drop to an earlier persona.

 

So I will absolutely give that this is speculation and assumption, but it does add up, at least for me. :)

 

[CTGryffindor]

The creator is tied to a lot of people's religious beliefs so that may be where the reluctance to trying to explain Nakomi comes from. Sex and religion are two subjects that should be treated with care

Treated with care? Certainly. But nothing in WOT is disrespectful to religious and non-religious people, regardless of whether the Creator meddles or not. Can't atheists, Christians, Jews and Muslims alike enjoy the Aneid or the Odyessy without being offended by the underlying acceptance of a polytheistic religion? Can't we they all enjoy the Golden Compass, despite its rejection of God? They, like WOT, are works of men. Accept and interpret them on their own terms, rather than demanding that your own worldview be affirmed. For they are stories, only; entertainment.

 

I neither read WOT in hopes of the Dragon Reborn making it through without some sort of encouragement from a higher figure, nor in hopes he would succeed because of some encouragement. It made no difference to me because it is merely a fantasy series I was reading for fun, as opposed to some theological or political screed that might afect my life. I am actually NOT religious: was raised Christian, married a Jew, and am raising my daughter Jewish because my wife cares more than I do. And ya know what? None of my views are validated or undermined by Jordan's fantasy world.

 

The basic point of my screed is that WOT is neither better not worse if Nakomi is a stand in for the Creator, at least not in any way that I have read on this board yet. Am I missing something, or is it just people imposing their religious and non-religious prejudices into their interpretations and expectations?

 

End screed (which is not directed against you, but to you, because you seem like a regular poster who is calm, cool and collected enough on the subject to answer my question without having taken offense).

[dreadlord]

My take on it was that Rand did to them (and Egwene) what Egwene had done to the Hall so many times - he got them to agree to something that sounded reasonable to them without them really thinking it through because there was so much else going on. I don't doubt that they'll try to stick their noses in, but now nations can tell the Aiel to make the AS butt out. No doubt Cadsuane understands what Rand did, but she may see, at this point, that he was right to get strip some of the Tower's power and prestiege until they can earn the place they had before.

 

[...]

 

Egwene likely realized what the agreement meant, but she thought that, because the Wise Ones were her friends, she could manipulate them into letting the WT keep power and, possibly, doing exactly what you suggest. I think that was part of the reason that the clan chiefs had to be included as well - they wouldn't be as influenced by Egwene. Either way, it worked out for the best.

 

I just skimmed over this section this morning before work, Faile and Perrin's conversation at the conclusion of the section, agrees with your first point. 

 

Not sure what Egwene realized or not, she stops being a focal point of the section once Moiraine's intervention happens until it comes time to sign the document.

 

A couple little things I noticed in that section... 

 

- Egwene isn't happy that Cadsuane is there or that Rand gives her a nod and doesn't seem to question her presence.

- I don't think any other Aes Sedai speak until after Moiraine's intervention.  And, the two that do after, make rather important contributions to building a consensus.

 

My take on the whole thing is that in the white tower might have some diffliculty in adapting to the new age because they no longer have a monopoly on the one power.

[Viperswhip]

Mark, you need evidence to convict, you only need to "know" to act or be sure. :D Aside from the match up of the original Nakomi teaching dreaming and Verin giving Egwene the ring, here are my thoughts on the Verin-Nakomi theory. First. I think Nakomi is clearly a hero. In T'A'R with Aviendha and then in the flesh after the horn is blown. Second. Now to Verin. Nakomi was not present when the Horn was blown in TGH. True, we didn't get a FULL description of all the heroes, but as many have pointed out, Jordan is the master of forshadowing, I think he would have at least mentioned a brief description. So now we have the idea of a Hero who was alive in a normal life of some sort during TGH but was back in T'A'R by ToM. Verin had died in the prior book. Third: As Terez said, the personalities are incredibly similar. Beyond that, I did see a fondness for the Aiel in Verin's life, she took her time as an "Apprentice" almost without an issue and seemed to have a great deal of respsect for them. Fourth. Why did she then appear as Nakomi instead of as Verin again? Well, she did just reveal herself as Black Ajah. She may trust Egwene to see her as a hero, but at her death she was very clearly concerned about what her legacy would be seen as by everyone. If I were a hero, and I knew there was a very strong chance that by the time I'm showing up everyone would see my last life as a villain, I'd drop to an earlier persona. So I will absolutely give that this is speculation and assumption, but it does add up, at least for me. :)

Not too mention, if she showed up as an Aes Sedai to Avi, well, she knows how the Aeil see Aes Sedai at this point.

[Callandora]

Another thing is there anyone out there that believes RJ capable of dumping a verin=Nakomi easter egg in the final book of the series w/o laying some kind of foreshadowing in the previous books. RJ was very meticulous as far as foreshadowing was concerned even if we are not keen enough to pick up on them

[dreadlord]

A (looney) Nakomi theory...

 

In TEOTW, we have a Kari al'Thor cameo.  Perhaps, Nakomi is a cameo appearance of Rand's birth mother.  She would certainly be interested in her grandkids future...

[Callandora]

Ultimately the fanbase will not be satisfied until BS or team jordan clarify Nakomi's role and origins which from what im hearing not very likely

[KakitaOCU]

Callandora. I think we get forshadowing both in earlier books and in this one.

 

We know that Rand is a Hero of the Horn in mortal form and as such doesn't get summoned by the horn. RJ has also said Birgitte would not appear while she was alive if the horn was blown. Lastly we have Jain show up when the horn is blow further establishing the pattern. (I know some people think Jain got added, but I have the feeling he's always been a hero, just happened to be spun out at the time of the story, same as Rand)

 

Combine that with the characters being very similar. Verin's seeming interest and understanding of T'A'R despite supposedly having no talent there (latent or subconscious understanding maybe) I think there's hints there to see.