Luckers... Official on Brandon

[Suttree]

 The fact that there is an active board of discussion about his work is a testament to the fact that regardless if it is amazingly written or not, it was successful enough to keep people interested. The greatest honor you can give to a writer is to criticize (both in the positive and negative sense of the word) his or her work, and considering the amount of debate BrS's work has sparked, I think he did a pretty darn good job and should be commended. 

Great call fuzz...

[DaoineSidhe]

First and foremost, I would like to say that I am incredibly thankful to Brandon Sanderson, Harriet, and the rest of Team Jordan for the work that they did in ensuring that we received an end to the story that Robert Jordan decided to share with the world.  However, I am not so thankful as to think that this act alone means that any form of criticism against them is invalid.  The problem that is occurring on these boards seems similar to what has become endemic throughout the US (can't speak for other countries that people are posting from because I'm not there, lol):  attacking the person for having a different view than yours, rather than addressing the difference in opinion.  Look at the most recent US Presidential election to see similarities in the way differing viewpoints are addressed.

 

It is valid to think that the BS written books are the best in the WoT.  It is just as valid an opinion to think that Brandon Sanderson has written these books terribly.  What isn't valid is to say that because you think one way or the other you are not a fan of the WoT, or that you are somehow "stupid, dumb, uneducated, etc.".  In the Brandon Sanderson criticism debate, both sides have at times made the error of attacking the person, not the opinion.

 

The idea to me of message boards is to discuss our opinions and thoughts upon the subject of the message board.  Considering the size of the community, of course there will be different opinions given by different people.  So when someone attacks someone else simply for having a different opinion, and doesn't discuss the points of the opinion, they are directly counter-acting the purpose of these message boards.  For both sides of the argument, there is no reason to ever utter the word stupid, idiotic, dumb, etc.  The minute either side uses one of these words, they are attacking the poster, not the post.  Regardless of whether the post is a troll, a personal attack, or just a different opinion, a reciprocal attacking post does no good.  If it just a troll, then you are just feeding the troll, instead of defusing it.  If it's a personal attack, and you respond in kind, you've already lost your point, because you've allowed the attacker to deflect the topic from your opinion to which poster is "right" or "wrong", "smart" or "dumb".  And if it's the final reason, then you are the cause of the problem, and should first be warned, then kicked for awhile, and then banned, if it keeps happening (just my opinion, not sure if that really lines up with the actual warn/kick/ban rules of DM).

 

I also think the same rules about responding to different opinions should also somewhat apply to critique of Brandon Sanderson and Team Jordan in their finishing of the WoT.  It quite alright to say that you dislike the way something was done, or disagreed with the way something was written.  It is another thing to imply that the author did not try hard on this work, and that all those involved where not striving for this to be the best product they could produce.  We are fans, not those working directly on the project, and regardless of how much we may know about the process in general, or that taking place for these books, we still aren't the ones working to complete this project. But this being the real world, just "doing your best" doesn't make you above valid criticism of the work that you did.  I'm sure most of us have tried our best at something, and it still earn criticism, whether from your boss, your teacher, etc.  That is life.

 

There are quite a few things that I dislike about Brandon's writing.  There are quite a few things that I like about his writing.  My final ruling on Brandon Sanderson as the author to complete WoT will be reserved until after I have read aMoL.  If I dislike what he did with the book, and feel it was a bad book, I won't think that he didn't try hard at writing the book, only that he failed in making the final book enjoyable to me as a fan of WoT.  I'll respect him for the effort he put into it, but still criticize him if I think he failed in that effort.

 

Of course, this is all just my opinion, others may (and I'm sure do) feel differently.

[Agitel]

They don't focus on the opinion, they don't focus on the text, they attack the poster and his right to critique. The part that is absolutely unconscionable is they even take it a step further and claim it is actually "Brandon hate" rather than a valid viewpoint. 

 

There have been criticisms that have gone beyond the text itself, and I'm not just referring to the handful of true haters. There have been complaints about the process, accusations that Brandon didn't try or fully commit to this work. Some of that's been retracted, some of its still there, but there have certainly been times when the criticism has been elevated to a personal level. This isn't "Brandon hate," but maybe we could call it "Brandon frustration."

 

fionwe has already made a great point that the fan involvement and interest in the creative process is certainly beyond any normal levels.

[skalors3]

Let me start by saying that I am on a kindle and type like a jackass on touch screens, so sorry. I will leave a lot of my opinions towards other responses to this thread out, but I felt inclined to reply to this thread despite the fact that I am just perusing this forum during my travels.

 

Lucker's, I am sure you won't read this, but I will share anyways. I support your attempt to try and correct whatever you feel needed to be correct. However, by trying to justify your feelings you basically negated any attempt at correction. I am sure you love this series, but you made a mess of things in many ways. Mostly by sowing discontent privately. I don't need to be privy to conversations to see that truth. You have (and others) have went well beyond criticizing content. If that was all that was being said, I wouldn't have an issue, but you have made public private inner workings that you have acquired second handed and added your own twists to them. For that you should have said sorry and called it a day. Mostly because I highly doubt that everything said is 100% truth, maybe not even 50%.

 

Instead of an apology, we have a one sided reply to a conversation that uses a praise/criticism form to get your feelings out. The saddest part, it never should have been shared. You basically ressurected a dead horse. You go after the man. You accuse him of not giving it his all. Then you thank him for his hard work. If this is how you normally conduct yourself, I completely agree with Harriet's decision to not include you as a gamma.

 

I for one find this a shameful attempt at reconciliation.

[Terez]

fionwe has already made a great point that the fan involvement and interest in the creative process is certainly beyond any normal levels.

 

Well, it's hardly a normal situation. The fan involvement has been fairly minimal, and actually pretty normal even for books being written by the original author (if not normal for RJ specifically). It's the Team Jordan aspect that's not normal, and the fact that the ship has two captains. And whoever suggested earlier (I forgot who it was) that using a handful of knowledgeable fans as a sounding board would result in more 'captains', I don't see why anyone would think that would be inevitable. The point would have been to help Brandon get a little closer to RJ's vision for the story, not for Brandon to try to make these fans' individual theories come true. And handful of diverse experts would provide varying theories and opinions but give Brandon a better idea of the details with which he needs to be familiar to realize RJ's vision. Even Jason's comment about the Forsaken....why would anyone assume that Jason convinced Brandon to do this on a whim, rather than convincing Brandon that it was a better representation of RJ's vision for the story? Someone mentioned that fan input makes it like fanfiction. What do you think Brandon writing the story is? Sure, we have what RJ left behind, but it's not as if fan involvement somehow makes it more likely that Brandon is going to diverge from that path. It makes it less likely, and that's the point of fan involvement in a situation like this (which is, again, far from your normal novelistic endeavor).

[Southpaw89]

 

fionwe has already made a great point that the fan involvement and interest in the creative process is certainly beyond any normal levels.

 

Well, it's hardly a normal situation. The fan involvement has been fairly minimal, and actually pretty normal even for books being written by the original author (if not normal for RJ specifically). It's the Team Jordan aspect that's not normal, and the fact that the ship has two captains. And whoever suggested earlier (I forgot who it was) that using a handful of knowledgeable fans as a sounding board would result in more 'captains', I don't see why anyone would think that would be inevitable. The point would have been to help Brandon get a little closer to RJ's vision for the story, not for Brandon to try to make these fans' individual theories come true. And handful of diverse experts would provide varying theories and opinions but give Brandon a better idea of the details with which he needs to be familiar to realize RJ's vision. Even Jason's comment about the Forsaken....why would anyone assume that Jason convinced Brandon to do this on a whim, rather than convincing Brandon that it was a better representation of RJ's vision for the story? Someone mentioned that fan input makes it like fanfiction. What do you think Brandon writing the story is? Sure, we have what RJ left behind, but it's not as if fan involvement somehow makes it more likely that Brandon is going to diverge from that path. It makes it less likely, and that's the point of fan involvement in a situation like this (which is, again, far from your normal novelistic endeavor).

 

 

What did Jason say about the Forsaken?

[Terez]

 

 

fionwe has already made a great point that the fan involvement and interest in the creative process is certainly beyond any normal levels.

 

Well, it's hardly a normal situation. The fan involvement has been fairly minimal, and actually pretty normal even for books being written by the original author (if not normal for RJ specifically). It's the Team Jordan aspect that's not normal, and the fact that the ship has two captains. And whoever suggested earlier (I forgot who it was) that using a handful of knowledgeable fans as a sounding board would result in more 'captains', I don't see why anyone would think that would be inevitable. The point would have been to help Brandon get a little closer to RJ's vision for the story, not for Brandon to try to make these fans' individual theories come true. And handful of diverse experts would provide varying theories and opinions but give Brandon a better idea of the details with which he needs to be familiar to realize RJ's vision. Even Jason's comment about the Forsaken....why would anyone assume that Jason convinced Brandon to do this on a whim, rather than convincing Brandon that it was a better representation of RJ's vision for the story? Someone mentioned that fan input makes it like fanfiction. What do you think Brandon writing the story is? Sure, we have what RJ left behind, but it's not as if fan involvement somehow makes it more likely that Brandon is going to diverge from that path. It makes it less likely, and that's the point of fan involvement in a situation like this (which is, again, far from your normal novelistic endeavor).

 

 

What did Jason say about the Forsaken?

 

 

Just that because of his influence, one of the Forsaken was alive.

 

By the way, I was having an email conversation with someone, and apparently they thought my comment about Maria earlier--that RJ didn't seek her out to be his continuity check--was intended to imply that Maria isn't very good at it. That's not what I was trying to imply at all. She's one of a few people on this planet whose WoT-fu I respect. I was just trying to make it clear that RJ didn't seem to think he needed a continuity checker. He hired her to do more mundane things, and she sort of snuck into the other role, from what I understand.

[ArveduiEreinion]

It is valid to think that the BS written books are the best in the WoT.  It is just as valid an opinion to think that Brandon Sanderson has written these books terribly.  What isn't valid is to say that because you think one way or the other you are not a fan of the WoT, or that you are somehow "stupid, dumb, uneducated, etc.".  In the Brandon Sanderson criticism debate, both sides have at times made the error of attacking the person, not the opinion.

 

I can't agree with this point. It is simply not valid to think that either TGS or ToM are the best written books in the WoT. You could argue that these books contain the most plot gratification. However, I fail to understand how anyone could argue that these books contain solid prose. Moreover, I find it hard to believe anyone could find the plot of ToM anything but frustrating. Another WH or TPoD. A completely unnecessary book, in other words, that should have been folded into perhaps two final books (e.g. TGS and AMoL). 

 

I'm honestly asking for your follow-up thoughts on this. If someone were to argue that the earth is flat, I wouldn't consider their argument valid. I would simply dismiss their argument. 

[Southpaw89]

 

 

 

fionwe has already made a great point that the fan involvement and interest in the creative process is certainly beyond any normal levels.

 

Well, it's hardly a normal situation. The fan involvement has been fairly minimal, and actually pretty normal even for books being written by the original author (if not normal for RJ specifically). It's the Team Jordan aspect that's not normal, and the fact that the ship has two captains. And whoever suggested earlier (I forgot who it was) that using a handful of knowledgeable fans as a sounding board would result in more 'captains', I don't see why anyone would think that would be inevitable. The point would have been to help Brandon get a little closer to RJ's vision for the story, not for Brandon to try to make these fans' individual theories come true. And handful of diverse experts would provide varying theories and opinions but give Brandon a better idea of the details with which he needs to be familiar to realize RJ's vision. Even Jason's comment about the Forsaken....why would anyone assume that Jason convinced Brandon to do this on a whim, rather than convincing Brandon that it was a better representation of RJ's vision for the story? Someone mentioned that fan input makes it like fanfiction. What do you think Brandon writing the story is? Sure, we have what RJ left behind, but it's not as if fan involvement somehow makes it more likely that Brandon is going to diverge from that path. It makes it less likely, and that's the point of fan involvement in a situation like this (which is, again, far from your normal novelistic endeavor).

 

 

What did Jason say about the Forsaken?

 

 

Just that because of his influence, one of the Forsaken was alive.

 

By the way, I was having an email conversation with someone, and apparently they thought my comment about Maria earlier--that RJ didn't seek her out to be his continuity check--was intended to imply that Maria isn't very good at it. That's not what I was trying to imply at all. She's one of a few people on this planet whose WoT-fu I respect. I was just trying to make it clear that RJ didn't seem to think he needed a continuity checker. He hired her to do more mundane things, and she sort of snuck into the other role, from what I understand.

 

 

Do we know which Forsaken that was or is it just assumed that it was Graendal?

[The Fisher King]

So much of this whole debate goes back to the fact that different people look for - and are gratified by - different things.

 

For someone who loves Characterization and Development, TSR and TFOH could be their two favorite novels in the WOT.

 

For someone who likes a steady, gradual pace with lots of descriptions, COT may well be one they consider to be the ''best'' book in the series.

 

To those who love lots of plot gratification and loose-end tying, TOM could be their pick.

 

A book is a creative piece of art and is subjective and will never be just one thing. We all look for different things that are important to us when we read a book so each book is going to meet those needs in different ways for everyone.

 

 

Fish

[fionwe1987]

 

And whoever suggested earlier (I forgot who it was) that using a handful of knowledgeable fans as a sounding board would result in more 'captains', I don't see why anyone would think that would be inevitable. The point would have been to help Brandon get a little closer to RJ's vision for the story, not for Brandon to try to make these fans' individual theories come true. And handful of diverse experts would provide varying theories and opinions but give Brandon a better idea of the details with which he needs to be familiar to realize RJ's vision.

 

I don't think I was saying that anyone asked to be a sounding board would deliberately try to make their theories come true, or that Brandon would try to help that happen. But given the very complex nature of this story, even the details someone emphasizes (with no intent to specifically get any agenda through) is going to make a difference to what enters the story and how. The theories and opinions you or Luckers might discuss with Brandon would be totally different from what someone else would, and unless they came up with a way to get every major WoT-fans opinions and theories, your entirely natural biases and opinions would bleed through. 

 

Even Jason's comment about the Forsaken....why would anyone assume that Jason convinced Brandon to do this on a whim, rather than convincing Brandon that it was a better representation of RJ's vision for the story?

That's not it. What he did was convince Brandon that his view of what was RJ's vision for the story was the correct one. Are you seriously saying that that would be exactly what RJ thought? Or that other fans who're equally invested in the series wouldn't have had differing ideas on that?

 

 

Someone mentioned that fan input makes it like fanfiction. What do you think Brandon writing the story is?

You're claiming Brandon's work is fanfic? Because that is absurd. He's the author of these books with RJ. A team of fans advising him changes that. They might as well have gone with a ghost writer in that case.

 

Sure, we have what RJ left behind, but it's not as if fan involvement somehow makes it more likely that Brandon is going to diverge from that path. It makes it less likely, and that's the point of fan involvement in a situation like this (which is, again, far from your normal novelistic endeavor).

I don't think anyone is arguing that continuity errors and factual mistakes would have reduced in number. Significantly. But I don't think the major gripe we all have with the handling of the final books is these things. The major problem is the characterization and some of the plot decisions. And I think having fan input into those aspects of a book is unacceptable. I'd much rather have the flawed output of one author than some meshwork of fan opinions converted to story form. 

[Terez]

Brandon is a fan. He's not the original author of the books. So yes, what he writes is essentially fan fiction when he's filling in gaps in RJ's outline; there's no way to argue around that. Brandon's fan ideas have worked their way into the book, and there's nothing inherently better about his ideas than other fans' ideas, and there is also nothing inherently better about one person's ideas than a melding of several people's ideas. In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite on both points. And Brandon's ideas have already been influenced by fan ideas; you can't avoid that either. There's no telling whether Jason's arguments to Brandon were actually representative of RJ's vision, but I don't see any reason why anyone would assume otherwise. Brandon was obviously convinced by those arguments. The flaw here is that Jason mentioned it at all.

[DaoineSidhe]

@ArveduiErenion:

 

How can someone say that tGS or ToM are their favorite books?  Simple, if they enjoyed reading those books more so than any other book in WoT.  I'm not talking literary criticism, but people's opinions on the books.  You are more than allowed to disagree with them, but if they enjoyed these books the most of the series, that is their opinion, and they are entitled to feel that way.  And for them, those books truly are the best in the series.  That doesn't mean you have to feel the same way.  Only that them feeling that way doesn't make them "stupid, dumb, etc."

 

Don't get me wrong, in my mind tGS & ToM are ranked dead last in the WoT series due to some issues I had with BS's writing, especially his character voicing for Mat.  But if someone loves these books the most, I ask them what it was that they liked about these books, and what their thoughts are on what I didn't like about the books, not call them an idiot, mean, ungrateful, un-educated, or anything else.

 

I'm sure we have all heard the words "Beauty if in the eye of the beholder."  Well, that holds true as much with books as it does with paintings, romantic attraction, scenery, clothes, you name it.  If someone finds something beautiful that you find ugly, you shouldn't be calling them "stupid" for seeing that beauty, but rather discussing why you two feel differently about this thing, so that possibly both people's horizons may expand.  If both sides can't agree, you can still discuss why you disagree, but that shouldn't include demeaning the person for feeling differently than you.

[Suttree]

Hey Terez any thoughts on Jason's statement in a recent interview that the outline was done by Harriet not RJ? That was the first I'd heard of that and was curious if you knew how it worked?

 

[fionwe1987]

Brandon is a fan. He's not the original author of the books. So yes, what he writes is essentially fan fiction when he's filling in gaps in RJ's outline; there's no way to argue around that.

 

Brandon was a fan of the books. He stopped being that the moment he was given the job of writing the finale. He's responsible for these books and how they turn out. He had access to extensive notes and an outline to work from. He's completing the books in response to RJ's specific wish that they be completed. So no, he's not essentially writing fan fiction. 

 

Brandon's fan ideas have worked their way into the book, and there's nothing inherently better about his ideas than other fans' ideas,

Of course they have, and no, there isn't. But they're clearly his ideas. And lo, his name on the cover alongside RJ's attests to that. But if a set of fans was molding the creative input right from the start, their ideas would be in there too. But their names would not make it to the cover, and frankly, I'm not reading this series for their input. I wasn't reading it for Brandon's either, but RJ's death made it critical that someone had to take over. I'm happier with it being the flawed work of one person than the collective effort of several fans.

and there is also nothing inherently better about one person's ideas than a melding of several people's ideas. In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite on both points.

That would be true for many things, but not for writing. Just having Brandon's and RJ's voices mixed is uncomfortable enough. Having five more people adding creative input would have mucked it up much worse, especially when their input will obviously be shaped by what they have discussed, and who they have discussed with on their various discussion boards. That's the difference between a fan like Brandon and a fans of the sort you want involved as sounding boards.

 

And Brandon's ideas have already been influenced by fan ideas; you can't avoid that either. There's no telling whether Jason's arguments to Brandon were actually representative of RJ's vision, but I don't see any reason why anyone would assume otherwise. Brandon was obviously convinced by those arguments. The flaw here is that Jason mentioned it at all.

That's definitely a major flaw, but I would argue that the fact that he had input at all is the huger one. I'm not reading this for Jason's views, or his idea of how this story should work. Knowing that his influence changed something as drastic as the survival of a Foresaken cheapens the entire experience for me.

[Terez]

Hey Terez any thoughts on Jason's statement in a recent interview that the outline was done by Harriet not RJ? That was the first I'd heard of that and was curious if you knew how it worked?

 

We've been told several times by Brandon that Alan was the outline guy, and Maria assisted him. I think Harriet gets technical credit sometimes for what Alan and Maria do, which is not to say that Harriet's own contributions aren't essential.

 

Fionwe--you're of course free to have your own opinion on this. I just don't think it makes much sense.

[The Fisher King]

Charles Guzbon, anyone?

 

 

Fish

[fionwe1987]

I want to explain my discomfort with fans helping on the front end a little more, so I'm going to do that separately.

 

I'm going to take an example from the latest book and try to explain from that what my problem is. Let's look at Egwene's actions in ToM. Before the release of the early chapters from aMoL, there was of course quite a bit of discussion of those actions. On the one hand, there was the typical argument that she was being her usual anti-Rand self. There were those who claimed she was being reasonable. There were others arguing she might have had reasons but she went about it the wrong way.

 

But there were several people arguing that before we judge Egwene as a character in this book, we need to look at all the inconsistencies in her actions, a result of Brandon taking over from RJ. Essentially, the integrity of the character was broken. Egwene the character that RJ wrote no longer existed. This was Brandon's version of her, and while she filled the same shoes and many a time even did things that RJ intended for her to do, the writing and characterization altered our perception of those actions. To truly analyse her in this book and fit that into the continuum of analysis from the previous books, we had to take into account the fact that Brandon was writing her, adjust for that, then proceed. Since I knew Brandon was the one who wrote her, and from that glean an idea of how he generally handles her and the types of situations she finds herself in, in can in fact make this correction to an extent. 

 

But imagine five or six other people having inputs on what Egwene would and would not do. Imagine five or six people making suggestions on how she'd handle something, how she would react. There's a possibility that all these people working together results in a character that's more consistent to her past (this is a huge big maybe), but it still won't come close to matching the same person writing her in book 12 as who wrote her in 11. But when I as a reader want to parse out what is happening and what part is the natural evolution of the character and what part is due to the change of authors, I'm left with even less chance of doing so because so many hands have been at it.

 

One of the great things about books, especially those written in third person personal or first person is that we can expect a consistency of characterization and motivation at a level we can get in no other medium. When you change an author, you lose that cohesion And when you substitute an author with five more, it gets even worse. My greatest pleasure from these (and any other) books is understanding the narrative of each character and getting a feel for them. Its hard enough to do that with one new author. It would be impossible with many more at the helm. And what happens when, say, someone goes on twitter and boasts about how it was their opinion that resulted in Egwene doing such and such? What happens when someone they had discussed Egwene with on the boards says that since this action was clearly due to the influence of fan X, it is clearly biased, and in the long ranging debate on this character, it holds no value as cannon because of this. You see how the author-character-reader axis is broken when you have fans take a hand? After all, if Luckers had managed to get his view of Cadsuane through to Brandon, and this affected how Brandon wrote Cadsuane, wouldn't some guy who argued Cadsuane with Luckers at DM rightfully argue that this holds no water? What does that imply for these books?

 

Further, there are those who feel these two volumes are some of the best in the series, and that this excuses/mitigates any flaws in these books. These people hold that Brandon's contribution added something positive to the series over and beyond what RJ himself could have achieved. I disagree with that, and I can analyse their reception of this book and argue their view of it to death, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea that Brandon should have filtered his creative process through a group of fans. That is a most uncomfortable situation for any author, and even with its doubtful benefits, I don't see how its fair to Brandon to impose this on him.

[Terez]

It may seem strange to you, but I think that Brandon might have actually been more comfortable with more fan input early on. I think it was mostly Harriet who was uncomfortable with that, because RJ was incredibly territorial about the creative process to the point that he wouldn't even let Harriet see anything before it had been through 20 or so revisions. But Brandon is not RJ, and perhaps trying to impose that expectation onto him was unfair.

[Sid]

The characterization problems are irritating to me, extremely irritating even, but somewhat understandable.  Some do go well beyond what I can wrap my head around, but it's all different people's perceptions I suppose.  People's perceptions of characters vary wildly, as is made obvious by what's written on these forums and what Brandon has written.  I dislike it, but what can you do.

 

The continuity problems are what I find unforgivable.  I truly believe that anyone in the position Brandon and Team Jordan is in, to give this series it's due, should have used several knowledgeable people to go over the newly written books with a fine-toothed comb.  If there are continuity inconsistencies or contradictions found, they should be made right, no matter that it might make it necessary that sections (perhaps even large sections) have to be rewritten, in then name of keeping the integrity of the WoT intact.  The series is extremely complex, perhaps too complex for even Team Jordan to find everything that doesn't add up.  But the impression I get (and I might have misunderstood something along the way) is that while Beta readers do serve this function in some small way, their feedback is actually used not by the author, but only by the rest of Team Jordan to make a few small changes in an attempt to smooth things out a bit.  For instance, Brandon has stated that things in the books were changed afterward without his knowledge.  Also, Brandon was done with writing AMoL before any other readers saw it at all:  they give their feedback, and then... what?  It seems the function of the Beta readers is overemphasized when it's convenient, i.e. 'none of them caught this or that', but I don't think they should have any kind of blame shifted to them for mistakes making it through to the published books either if their feedback isn't taken to be as important to the process as some of us might have thought.  I'm not saying to blame Brandon in this either, though he wrote the mistakes in the first place.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Perhaps the process they used itself is to blame. 

 

I agree that several authors working together would likely muddle things up a great deal.  But if others are able to point out direct contradictions and inconsistencies, chapter and verse, to the one author, so they can write it in a way that makes sense without the need for slapping a bandage on it later, I think that would be an overall improvement.  Perhaps this is a completely unrealistic view, or an example of hindsight being 20/20, but I wish it was done nonetheless.  I dislike mistakes, but absolutely despise obviously unintentional contradictions that affect the plot when reading a series like this.

[goksekor]

First of all, I need to say I started posting to DM very recently and not at all versed with past discussions or other users' standings regarding debates and such. I apologize in advance if I hurt people's feelings with my ignorance, for that is definitely not my intention.

 

Having said that, I am sad to see people attacking each other on a personal level in this medium. It is not about DM not being a fun place any more, I don't know the history of DM, yes I lurked every now and then but have never contributed to the community ever before, so saying that would be some bullshit on my part. I understand there is some accumulated fatigue for people who have been in this kind of debates and target of personal shots (hats off to Sutree who admitted and went back to sticking on to the topic), but this is saddening really.

 

Regarding the topic: I want to empathize with Brandon Sanderson for a minute, before the time he was brought in for WoT. He has been a WoT fan from childhood, his very career choise is affected by this series. He is trying to establish himself as an author(sidenote :I don't know if any of you has read his other work (most likely) but I read Mistborn Series and was amazed by it. I thought this guy had potential. The only reason I've heard of him is because of WoT, and he got my approval AFTER reading Mistborn series). Imagine Harriet's position after RJ changed his mind in the last months and as his will, he left her a HUGE task to her: Find someone to finish his magnum opus after he passes away. Now.. It CANT be well established writers for numerous reasons, I guess everyone would agree with that. It has to be an up and coming writer who will do the series justice and will be HONORED to have been offered. In comes Brandon. He probably was very sad after RJ's death like the rest of fandom since the story can not be finished, but he recieves a phone call and he learns not only the story will be finished but he CAN be the one to finish it. I'd be surpised to hear if he hasn't come close to tears afterwards, or even cried.

 

Anyhow, Brandon Sanderson is an up and coming author. He has only published a couple of books so far. And if you read Elantris, one can see how clumsy he is in some aspects. But in Mistborn those are mostly corrected. He has a big career choise now: be a part of this awesome saga and help finish it or focus on his work. The first is an awesome opportunity but can be his downfall as well. Having a fandom like WoT against you can be VERY VERY troubling to any fantasy author. He risks it though. I think this decision is %50 logical and %50 emotional, latter coming from the love of his series.

 

In the beginning he is very, very humble, to an extent he is critisised by it. I think this is coming from his respect for RJ, Harriet, the fandom and for the series itself. I don't think this is a lack of confidence or anything on his part. He simply states this is RJs work and noone can write it as he would and he is right. I dont know how the inner circle of RJ worked before he passed away but I have to think RJ had final say in everything related to the narrative. Things may be pointed out to him of course, and maybe he would correct his actions as such, but his was the final word. We all know this is not the case for Brandon. I think this would be a very hard thing in a creative process. We know that Team Jordan's or Harriet's intentions are pure; to do RJ's legacy justice, but I think this has put Brandon in very tight spots time after time since his opinion might differ from theirs. After all, it is his name next to RJs. Not Team Jordan. He has to be the one to take the critisism. He has to take it like a champ. As an example, for any given topic, if he insisted on one thing to happen and then if Harriet shut it down (or feedbacks from Team Jordan), when the book is out if there are bitter critisism regarding that topic he can not go and say "Oh I wanted to do this but they didn't let me". I don't think he even can say to the rest of the team "I told you so" later on, purely out of respect.

 

In the end, it is a VERY hard task to keep the fandom happy. Even RJ himself couldnt do it at times. I remember my frustration on some books, most likely shared with the community. I dont think he is placing the blame on any group(beta readers, team jordan etc) but come on guys, he HAS to be political at least. He has a career on his own besides WoT. I agree, WoT was a huge boost to his career as well, but he has to think of and that means he has to be political at times. Considering the amount of energy he put into this series - and I cant imagine it is anything less than %100 of what he has available to give - maybe Peter, witnessing it firsthand, is trying to protect him to some extent since he believes in him.

 

Please note, I am NOT saying Brandon did not do any mistakes with regards to WoT. He obviously did. But that is nothing unexpected. It HAD to be an up an coming author, with a good potential for the series to be finished. He has a great potential I would say, and he keeps learning, and WoT taught him a lot I guess. Regarding continuity issues, I completely agree there, continuity should have been mistake-free. But there it is. And I'm thinking.. if Brandon, Harriet, Maria and rest of Team Jordan, beta readers and so on missed those.. What would be my chances to find them out, in a very limited timeframe, which the responsible for this task were in? I am not saying these are forgivable, and by no means justifiable since I dont think I could have done it myself in that limited timeframe. But in my opinion ALL of the people involved in deliverance of the ending of the WoT saga are trying to do RJ's legacy justice and if this is the best they can do(and I am sure it is), I feel I am obliged to forgive the unforgivable and thank them for their efforts and hope the final book will live up to expectations.

 

I may be wrong since I have no idea what is going on with the inner circle, but IF there had been definite errors(not talking about opinions based on characterization or plotlines etc) for continuity or such and beta readers have pointed that out, it is hard for me to believe that no corrective action was taken by the creative team, or at least without good reason. Think of the reaction of the fandom if they said the final volume was postponed to 2015 instead of 2013 for example, I know how frustrated and angry I would have been if that happened.

 

Cheers.

[Luckers]

Skalor I read everything in this thread--I hurt someone I admire posting it, you can be sure I won't avoid hurt in return.

[Sarlic]

Hi all ---

 

I've been a long-time lurker, with most of my forum-reading activity limited to the 1-2 month time frame before a release. I tend to do a re-read before each book, and in an (unsatisfying) attempt to fill the void and satisfy the craving for more after I finish the RR, I come here to read spoilers. :-)

 

Too many threads in the "Memory of Light SPOILERS section" have been hijacked by an ongoing pissing match between the various parties involved in beta-reads, consistency checks, or whatever you want to call them.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to presume to tell people not to express their opinions, but can we *at least* get this stuff filtered out of a forum that's meant to be dedicated to a discussion of the story, the reveals, expectations, etc? I'm just tired of every discussion degenerating into this.

 

At least this one has its own thread; God knows why I bothered to read it, as it's exactly what I thought it would be; insiders, outsiders, all with opinions; overly negative, aggressive, but passionate, and a demonstration of our love for this great work of fantasy.

 

Anyway -- I don't care who's right or wrong here. But several posters commented on the declining quality of discussions on the Dragonmount board, mostly because they all get re-directed back to this very same topic.

 

If people want to bash Brandon or defend Brandon, can it *at least* be done somewhere where those of us who are just here to discuss theories etc, for book 14 don't have to get overwhelmed by it? This type of insider discussion, while fascinating, really has no relevance here. It has relevance, certainly, but as someone who wants to go into the last book excited by little tid-bits we're able to glean from the pre-releases and other spoilers, this forum and its current climate makes that very difficult.

 

We have a prologue, and 2 chapters........... If anything, the overwhelming negativity towards this book is more than a bit premature. (And if you want to say, "yes, but we have 2 other books with the same mistakes," then again, I tell you, the aMoL SPOILER forum is not the appropriate place to discuss it.)

 

Anyway -- just wanted to say my piece, and hope the moderators can get some of these discussions moved to a more appropriate place.

 

For the rest -- Sit back, take a deep breath; we're getting an ending to a series that some of us have been reading for 20 years. This is MONUMENTAL. It may not be the ending we all wanted, and it may not be as perfect as everyone wanted it to be.... but let's enjoy the last month of being able to theorize and get back to topics that really matter -- like who *really* killed Asmodean? (Joke.)

 

Doubt my rants will really have much influence, but just needed to get it off my chest.

 

Happy reading all!

 

SM

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Terez]

..the impression I get (and I might have misunderstood something along the way) is that while Beta readers do serve this function in some small way, their feedback is actually used not by the author, but only by the rest of Team Jordan to make a few small changes in an attempt to smooth things out a bit.  For instance, Brandon has stated that things in the books were changed afterward without his knowledge.  Also, Brandon was done with writing AMoL before any other readers saw it at all:  they give their feedback, and then... what?

 

From what I understand, pretty much everything they noted about continuity was used, but I also understand there were a few debatable things, and that none of their comments about characterization and the like were used. (Though I also am under the impression that they knew it would be that way beforehand.) Brandon was involved in the TGS and TOM beta reads but the AMOL beta read was mostly done without him. Some continuity things in TOM were corrected without consulting him, but I'm pretty sure that was after it was published.

[sleepinghour]

Do we know which Forsaken that was or is it just assumed that it was Graendal?

 

My guess is that it was actually Mesaana. When Brandon was asked if Graendal's new name Hessalam came from RJ's notes, he answered, "it was not me." An Aes Sedai answer, but it probably came from RJ since (as Dom pointed out) the name is likely a nod to Dr. John Haslam, known for his work on mental illness. And FWIW, I don't believe RJ would have opted to leave Mesaana alive in vegetative state; it's a somewhat annoying loose end now since we'll probably never hear of Mesaana again.

 

Beyond that, there are many other signs of fan influence in the books, though it could just as well be from Brandon/Team Jordan having read discussions on fan forums (some of them have been known to lurk here) as anyone specifically suggesting these additions. At times, Androl sounds like he's quoting Luckers' "The Life and Times of an Aes Sedai" essay. There are also obvious attempts to rehabilitate Egwene's image in AMoL by using common suggestions from these forums, like "why doesn't anybody bother to check Elayne's Kindle ter'angreal if there's anything useful in it." And so on.