Luckers... Official on Brandon

[RelentlessAttack]

I have to admit, I've been avoiding Dragonmount in the buildup to AMOL because of the constant negativity surrounding the release and Brandon's work. I've always felt TGS and TOM were flawed, even when TGS was met with incredible enthusiasm by the majority of the fanbase, and I do find it a lot harder to reread or discuss Brandon's volumes because of the unreliable nature of the continuity and characterization.

 

However, it is simply pointless to create this immense air of negativity that has surrounded discussion of AMOL here lately. Ever since RJ passed it was clear that any writer would have a hard time delivering the end of the series the same way RJ would, and that's fine. For all it's flaws, I really enjoyed reading TGS just as I really enjoyed reading the last 2/3 of TOM, and I'm sure as I'll enjoy reading AMOL. Yeah it won't be perfect but as Terez said, this is what we have now amd we may as well accept it. Harriett, Brandon, and everyone else involved were truly left with an impossible task, and there's no point questioning whether or not they've done their best. They've worked incredibly hard to bring us the ending to a series that has greatly affected many of our lives and I don't think we should focus in the negatives. Personally, I just want to sit back and enjoy the ending to a saga that has been with me since my childhood.

[Suttree]

As I said in my previous post Im not mad at people pointing out mistakes, and I certainly dont need them "unveiling" by you or anyone. it just grates that its all we hear about now. We have known there are plenty of mistakes for ages now, you could get over it if you want, but you obviously dont want to, so you drivel on about it all the time like you have nothing better to do. 

But again saying that's all we hear about is beyond ridiculous. I challenge you to look at Luckers, Barid, Yoniy0 and my own posts to see what we discuss on a daily basis. Stop falsely presenting what happens here(or is it just absurd hyperbole trying to hammer home your point?).

 

Again it is the most cowardly stance to take saying well yeah there are problems but I am just going to ignore them. We are lucky to just be getting the ending. Get out of here with that bs. It's about as true as your Moridin/Taim theory.

 

@Manscher

 

Who said anything about right or wrong? Again this talk had been isolated into one thread and had been constructive. As long as posters like yourself stick to the text and debate what you like instead of going after other posters the problem ceases to exist. But oh wait you think people have been talking about the problems too much and want them to stop...no not censorship in the slightest. I see exactly what you mean.

 

 

I believe the phrase is 'hear hear'.

Lol...on iPhone waiting for friends out for a sushi dinner. Fired it off quick but point taking I expect ;)

 

 

I believe it's "point taken." (I apologize, I couldn't help myself)

 

Lol...cocktails and flash posting had me on a roll last night I see. Classic...

 

@pillow

 

I certainly would have an issue with it. You don't just register to pile on in a debate like this regardless of what side you fall on. Further yout utterly and completely missed the point in relation to Lucker's post. I don't care how long you have lurked, comment on the actual work instead of going after posters. End of.

[pillowfriend]

@Suttree

[Manscher]

The thing is Suttree, it haven't been contained to just that thread. This thread being a magnificent example of just that :D

[pillowfriend]

@Suttree

 

"Comment on the actual work instead of going after posters."

 

You're joking, right?

[Suttree]

The thing is Suttree, it haven't been contained to just that thread. This thread being a magnificent example of just that :D

Actually Barid, myself and others had been trying hard to make that the case and also have been trying to make that thread constructive. Regardless this thread had a specific purpose. I suggest you go back and see who threw it off track.

 

@pillow

 

If you are here for another reason aside from trolling by all means begin posting elsewhere. I welcome your additions to the community and look forward to your posts in all the various threads. Cheers.

[RelentlessAttack]

I hate to say this Suttree because I'm not looking for conflict but your posts come across as very defensive.  I can only provide the perspective of one person who has lurked here (and elsewhere) for years upon years and has posted every now and then since Brandon took over and I can honestly say that I've never seen this level of negativity on this board, or any other WoT community before.  And I know that you, Luckers, Fish, and other are all very passionate fans who've contributed positively to this community for a long time and I have in general had a lot of respect for your views over the years.  I even agree with you guys on the vast majority of points.  However, despite your good intentions, I have to say that from my perspective all of the negativity has really made coming here a lot less fun.

 

I fully believe there is a place for constructive criticism - however, one month from the release of AMOL, I truly believe that now is not that time.  I have been largely avoiding DM lately, and will continue probably continue to do so over the next month, simply because I think its down to that time where it doesn't make sense to do much else other than enjoy the anticipation and get ready for the end of this series.  Reading on various WoT communities usually is a big part of that for me to build excitement but the negative vibe here means that this probably won't be one of them for the first time in ages.

[fionwe1987]

Re Beta readers: there are two issues at play here. One is about what can be expected from beta readers. The other is to what extent we should expect Brandon to rely on them.

 

The first part has been well addressed, I think. Terez was correct that while factual and continuity errors would have been brought down, this would not change the characterization, the plot mechanics, the focus on particular parts of the various story-lines... none of these could have been changed by beta readers. Any set of beta readers is going to have their own prejudices regarding the characters, and we all know that it is impossible to get a bunch WoT fans to agree on something about a character.

 

Which brings me to the second part. I think any early involvement with beta-reades, using the fans as sounding boards... those are not reasonable ideas. I don't think the start of the creative process can be with the discussion of your ideas with fans. The last thing this series needed is any kind of deep fan influence on Brandon's conception of the books. I respect a lot of the posters on the board who might have likely played such a role, but I think the moment something like this happened, the final three books would officially have moved into fan-fiction territory. We all have ideas of what the final books should be, based on our extensive reading of the previous books, our personal views and opinions, and the way those have been shaped by many years of discussion with other fans.

 

I think any of this leaking into the creative process would have been a disaster. Would the mechanics of the books have improved? Maybe. But that book would not be anything but some sort of weird wish fulfillment. And I don't think any author would stand for it, or deserves to be questioned for not agreeing to it. Whatever we think of the choice, whatever our feelings on the end product, Brandon was chosen as the best person to have creative input into the end of the series. He wasn't simply converting a plot outline to a story. Asking him to essentially crowsource that creative process is wrong. Whether at the front end by bringing in fans as sounding boards, or later by having them comb through the work and suggest changes to characterization and plotting. Whether we accept it or not, every fan with extensive posts in DM, or TL or wotmania or any other WoT board is going to have been shaped by years of discussions with other fans. What place does that have on the creative aspect of the books? Exactly none. I don't want to read the story version of some random discussion of Cadsuane on DM. Substitute any character with any discussion board there, and the point still stands. 

 

I have any number of issues with the last two books, and even the few chapters of aMoL that have been released. But the suggestion (which I've seen coming from both "sides" of this argument) that fan involvement is some sort of cure for the problems of these books is ludicrous. Whatever your views on the books, they're Brandon's work, and that is a good thing.

[fionwe1987]

About the "negativity": Let's stop saying this is only the fault of posters criticizing Brandon's work. I gave up on the Thisguy thread ages ago because it got boring as hell. But even a swift glance there shows that what's happening is essentially reciprocal escalation. Someone criticizes something, someone else defends it, someone criticizes the defense, and so on. Its not like one side is all negative and the other is singing Kumbaya! 

 

In fact, I would say that it is the meta-discussion on whether there should be discussion of the negative aspects of the books/author that is to blame for all the negativity. That is where things get personal, and that is entirely the problem. I don't think closing that thread or curtailing such arguments will solve the problem, however. 

[sleepinghour]

I think any early involvement with beta-reades, using the fans as sounding boards... those are not reasonable ideas. I don't think the start of the creative process can be with the discussion of your ideas with fans. The last thing this series needed is any kind of deep fan influence on Brandon's conception of the books. I respect a lot of the posters on the board who might have likely played such a role, but I think the moment something like this happened, the final three books would officially have moved into fan-fiction territory.

 

You don't think that has already happened, at least to some degree?

 

@Dragonmount: Another #wotconfession : In part because of my influence, one of the Forsaken is alive. Can't say more than that. -JD

[fionwe1987]

 

I think any early involvement with beta-reades, using the fans as sounding boards... those are not reasonable ideas. I don't think the start of the creative process can be with the discussion of your ideas with fans. The last thing this series needed is any kind of deep fan influence on Brandon's conception of the books. I respect a lot of the posters on the board who might have likely played such a role, but I think the moment something like this happened, the final three books would officially have moved into fan-fiction territory.

 

You don't think that has already happened, at least to some degree?

 

@Dragonmount: Another #wotconfession : In part because of my influence, one of the Forsaken is alive. Can't say more than that. -JD

 

And that's bad enough. Can you imagine how insane it would be if we had many more instances of this kind of crap? 

[OptimusPrime]

 

As I said in my previous post Im not mad at people pointing out mistakes, and I certainly dont need them "unveiling" by you or anyone. it just grates that its all we hear about now. We have known there are plenty of mistakes for ages now, you could get over it if you want, but you obviously dont want to, so you drivel on about it all the time like you have nothing better to do. 

But again saying that's all we hear about is beyond ridiculous. I challenge you to look at Luckers, Barid, Yoniy0 and my own posts to see what we discuss on a daily basis. Stop falsely presenting what happens here(or is it just absurd hyperbole trying to hammer home your point?).

 

Again it is the most cowardly stance to take saying well yeah there are problems but I am just going to ignore them. We are lucky to just be getting the ending. Get out of here with that bs.

 

 

Cowardly? Were talking about reading books for Christs sake. Theres nothing chivalrous about pointing out errors in hope on getting the "Find The Thousandth Mistake" award you guys are obviously after.  And I dont ignore the problems of the book, I just dont see the point of making them the focal point of my existence either.

 

 Luckers admitted his mistake, why cant you?

[davesmith1983]

Re Beta readers: there are two issues at play here. One is about what can be expected from beta readers. The other is to what extent we should expect Brandon to rely on them.

 

The first part has been well addressed, I think. Terez was correct that while factual and continuity errors would have been brought down, this would not change the characterization, the plot mechanics, the focus on particular parts of the various story-lines... none of these could have been changed by beta readers. Any set of beta readers is going to have their own prejudices regarding the characters, and we all know that it is impossible to get a bunch WoT fans to agree on something about a character.

 

Which brings me to the second part. I think any early involvement with beta-reades, using the fans as sounding boards... those are not reasonable ideas. I don't think the start of the creative process can be with the discussion of your ideas with fans. The last thing this series needed is any kind of deep fan influence on Brandon's conception of the books. I respect a lot of the posters on the board who might have likely played such a role, but I think the moment something like this happened, the final three books would officially have moved into fan-fiction territory. We all have ideas of what the final books should be, based on our extensive reading of the previous books, our personal views and opinions, and the way those have been shaped by many years of discussion with other fans.

 

I think any of this leaking into the creative process would have been a disaster. Would the mechanics of the books have improved? Maybe. But that book would not be anything but some sort of weird wish fulfillment. And I don't think any author would stand for it, or deserves to be questioned for not agreeing to it. Whatever we think of the choice, whatever our feelings on the end product, Brandon was chosen as the best person to have creative input into the end of the series. He wasn't simply converting a plot outline to a story. Asking him to essentially crowsource that creative process is wrong. Whether at the front end by bringing in fans as sounding boards, or later by having them comb through the work and suggest changes to characterization and plotting. Whether we accept it or not, every fan with extensive posts in DM, or TL or wotmania or any other WoT board is going to have been shaped by years of discussions with other fans. What place does that have on the creative aspect of the books? Exactly none. I don't want to read the story version of some random discussion of Cadsuane on DM. Substitute any character with any discussion board there, and the point still stands. 

 

I have any number of issues with the last two books, and even the few chapters of aMoL that have been released. But the suggestion (which I've seen coming from both "sides" of this argument) that fan involvement is some sort of cure for the problems of these books is ludicrous. Whatever your views on the books, they're Brandon's work, and that is a good thing.

This times a million.

[Valsuvious]

     Here we go again. In my personal opinion you have 2 schools of thought. The first is that you have the people upset of all the criticism aimed at them because of the simple fact that they are critiquing Sanderson's work on finishing up the series. This is criticism they they in fact EARNED because of the simple fact that they are supposed to represent the community as a whole versus becoming super fans only (aimed at the moderators and certain long time posters).  I am not saying that people, especially moderators, should not have a right to an opinion because they ARE entitled.  They should look at keeping the threads constructive rather than letting it devolve into the verbal scrums that have developed   I appreciate Terez's view on this because of the simple fact that she summed up that while she has been critical that she also finishes up at the end with a note of thanks and appreciation for the overall fact that that we are getting the ending to this series and that even with the flaws that she still gets the bigger picture.

 

    The second school of thought are those that understand that there are flaws, However, they also feel that the ending is justification for staying their hand on this particular subject.  People have heaped praise on TGS as well as ToM and I will acknowledge this.  In saying that it was after these 2 releases that we have the hostility mounting.  I don't know exactly where it started or by who and I don't care.  The bottom line here is that we have people just nitpicking the flaws out of the book and then magnifying them.  The opposition to this school of thought simply is stating that we recognize these flaws but that it doesn't take from the overall appreciation as well as the main story as it is being told.  The super fan will say that these are just casual fans and that these people are just not "educated enough" where by their opinions should be ignored.  No one is outright saying this but that is the feeling that is being implied.   It is this implication that is continuing to stir the pot and magnify the separation between those who nitpick EVERY word of the past 2 books with the 3rd upcoming and the those who accept that there will be flaws with the overall feeling that they are happy that it all will be finished as closely as possible to what RJ intended and by a competent author.  The word grateful is as best a description as I can come up with here.

 

For those who say that RJ was criticized as well, they are right.  If you think that the level of criticism is the same for RJ vs Sanderson then you are sadly mistaken.  All you need to do is back out of this thread and look at the other thread that takes open shots that have continued the devolution of the boards.  Peter has been nice enough to chime in here and there defending Sanderson as best he can as well as defending the work of most individuals associated with this work.  I personally thank you sir for doing this even though you do not necessarily have to.

 

In closing I want to state that I do believe that there are flaws.  Do they take away from the the overall story as it moves forward?  Perhaps to some who hang on every line of text as they read it.  It didn't for me and I am grateful for the fact that I am not wired that way when it comes to reading this series.  Overall I don't mind the criticism as it once stood but the direction in which it has headed has got to stop.  Please!?

 

If you read this thanks for taking the time.  I have been a very long time lurker on this forum and because of this subject matter I felt compelled to finally say something.  Either way thanks.

 

Valsuvious  

[Agitel]

Re Beta readers: there are two issues at play here. One is about what can be expected from beta readers. The other is to what extent we should expect Brandon to rely on them.

 

The first part has been well addressed, I think. Terez was correct that while factual and continuity errors would have been brought down, this would not change the characterization, the plot mechanics, the focus on particular parts of the various story-lines... none of these could have been changed by beta readers. Any set of beta readers is going to have their own prejudices regarding the characters, and we all know that it is impossible to get a bunch WoT fans to agree on something about a character.

 

Which brings me to the second part. I think any early involvement with beta-reades, using the fans as sounding boards... those are not reasonable ideas. I don't think the start of the creative process can be with the discussion of your ideas with fans. The last thing this series needed is any kind of deep fan influence on Brandon's conception of the books. I respect a lot of the posters on the board who might have likely played such a role, but I think the moment something like this happened, the final three books would officially have moved into fan-fiction territory. We all have ideas of what the final books should be, based on our extensive reading of the previous books, our personal views and opinions, and the way those have been shaped by many years of discussion with other fans.

 

I think any of this leaking into the creative process would have been a disaster. Would the mechanics of the books have improved? Maybe. But that book would not be anything but some sort of weird wish fulfillment. And I don't think any author would stand for it, or deserves to be questioned for not agreeing to it. Whatever we think of the choice, whatever our feelings on the end product, Brandon was chosen as the best person to have creative input into the end of the series. He wasn't simply converting a plot outline to a story. Asking him to essentially crowsource that creative process is wrong. Whether at the front end by bringing in fans as sounding boards, or later by having them comb through the work and suggest changes to characterization and plotting. Whether we accept it or not, every fan with extensive posts in DM, or TL or wotmania or any other WoT board is going to have been shaped by years of discussions with other fans. What place does that have on the creative aspect of the books? Exactly none. I don't want to read the story version of some random discussion of Cadsuane on DM. Substitute any character with any discussion board there, and the point still stands. 

 

I have any number of issues with the last two books, and even the few chapters of aMoL that have been released. But the suggestion (which I've seen coming from both "sides" of this argument) that fan involvement is some sort of cure for the problems of these books is ludicrous. Whatever your views on the books, they're Brandon's work, and that is a good thing.

 

 

Great post.

[Maleshub]

RJ's work was critiqued, but to say that it was critiqued in the same manner that Brandon is being critiqued now is revisionist in my opinion. At least in the 15 years I've been following RJ online here and other places, I don't remember ever seeing the level of criticism leveled at RJ that has been leveled at Brandon in regards to timeline issues, continuity, and textual critiques of his prose. Granted, I go in and out of following discussions and I generally just lurk, so I may be misremembering. However, the level of criticism definitely feels "hotter" to me now then when RJ was alive, but maybe that's just my perception.

In the epic RJ vs BS debate, my personal opinion is that Brandon never wrote anything as boring as Crossroads of Twilight.

 

Two excellent posts by Terez and Finowe about appreciating the closure of the saga. Thank you both :)

[Southpaw89]

For some reason I can't use the quote button on Peter's post. I'm assuming it has something to do with the weirdness DM is experiencing in general right now.

 

Brandon did want Terez and Luckers as gamma readers. I would use much different phrasing from "Harriet shot it down" to describe why it ultimately didn't happen. It's complicated and I don't believe I'm at liberty to go into it.

I wasn't ever given a reason, but I just wanted to say that the 'complicated' reasons why it didn't happen should probably be as obvious as the reasons why Brandon wanted us. I was not particularly surprised that it didn't happen, and in the end not too disappointed either. From what I have learned about the beta process—which was 99% from Luckers, since my only close-ish friend among the beta readers is what Luckers likes to call a 'steel trap'—I don't think it would have made much difference. There could have been some improvement on continuity, certainly—the more knowledgeable fans you can consult on continuity, the better your continuity will be (and while Maria served that role for RJ, it was sort of accidental; he did not seek her out for that role)—but there probably wouldn't have been any difference whatsoever on things like characterization.

 

I could go into a long post here about this and that and the other but I don't really think this is the place for it. There are certainly things I wish had gone differently—for example, a concerted effort early on to find the most knowledgeable fans and use them as a sounding board could have made a big difference—but in the end I think RJ would have wanted us to recognize that he left Harriet with an impossible job. I don't believe the impossibility of it was ever a good reason not to make certain efforts, but what's done is done. The book is printed, and it won't change aside from the inevitable continuity retcons. We will have the end of the story. It won't be perfect, but it's over now, and I have nothing left but appreciation for the amazing amount of stress that Harriet and Brandon have endured to make it happen. And grateful that I got the chance to be friends with Luckers in the process. Because I'm pretty sure that would never have happened otherwise.

 

You said it perfectly. There is always room to critique and there have definitely been things that Brandon could have done better, much better, but overall in the end he DID finish a series that may not have gotten done otherwise and I'm sure did better than others would have if Harriet had chosen someone else to. I do think though that the critique should quiet down for awhile as we head into the final stretch leading up to AMoL. The ending is almost here and there will be time to critique once it is all over. Even with certain issues that I have had with how Brandon did some things, I will always be appreciative of what he and the rest of Team Jordan (Harriet, Maria, Alan, Wilson and Peter) have done.

[Ryan52]

Re Beta readers: there are two issues at play here. One is about what can be expected from beta readers. The other is to what extent we should expect Brandon to rely on them.

 

The first part has been well addressed, I think. Terez was correct that while factual and continuity errors would have been brought down, this would not change the characterization, the plot mechanics, the focus on particular parts of the various story-lines... none of these could have been changed by beta readers. Any set of beta readers is going to have their own prejudices regarding the characters, and we all know that it is impossible to get a bunch WoT fans to agree on something about a character.

 

Which brings me to the second part. I think any early involvement with beta-reades, using the fans as sounding boards... those are not reasonable ideas. I don't think the start of the creative process can be with the discussion of your ideas with fans. The last thing this series needed is any kind of deep fan influence on Brandon's conception of the books. I respect a lot of the posters on the board who might have likely played such a role, but I think the moment something like this happened, the final three books would officially have moved into fan-fiction territory. We all have ideas of what the final books should be, based on our extensive reading of the previous books, our personal views and opinions, and the way those have been shaped by many years of discussion with other fans.

 

I think any of this leaking into the creative process would have been a disaster. Would the mechanics of the books have improved? Maybe. But that book would not be anything but some sort of weird wish fulfillment. And I don't think any author would stand for it, or deserves to be questioned for not agreeing to it. Whatever we think of the choice, whatever our feelings on the end product, Brandon was chosen as the best person to have creative input into the end of the series. He wasn't simply converting a plot outline to a story. Asking him to essentially crowsource that creative process is wrong. Whether at the front end by bringing in fans as sounding boards, or later by having them comb through the work and suggest changes to characterization and plotting. Whether we accept it or not, every fan with extensive posts in DM, or TL or wotmania or any other WoT board is going to have been shaped by years of discussions with other fans. What place does that have on the creative aspect of the books? Exactly none. I don't want to read the story version of some random discussion of Cadsuane on DM. Substitute any character with any discussion board there, and the point still stands. 

 

I have any number of issues with the last two books, and even the few chapters of aMoL that have been released. But the suggestion (which I've seen coming from both "sides" of this argument) that fan involvement is some sort of cure for the problems of these books is ludicrous. Whatever your views on the books, they're Brandon's work, and that is a good thing.

 

Very nice post, too much fan involvement has been a chief complaint of mine through this whole process.  Brandon already had a daunting enough task without the distraction of being harassed by vocal fans, some that developed a rather large sense of entitlement because they were given access to the author.  I am not going to get into a long diatribe on things because it is really not worth the time, but I always thought this  whole issue should be transparently petty and blatantly personal to anyone that has followed the DM community and boards for the last few years.      

[Suttree]

I hate to say this Suttree because I'm not looking for conflict but your posts come across as very defensive.  I can only provide the perspective of one person who has lurked here (and elsewhere) for years upon years and has posted every now and then since Brandon took over and I can honestly say that I've never seen this level of negativity on this board, or any other WoT community before.  And I know that you, Luckers, Fish, and other are all very passionate fans who've contributed positively to this community for a long time and I have in general had a lot of respect for your views over the years.  I even agree with you guys on the vast majority of points.  However, despite your good intentions, I have to say that from my perspective all of the negativity has really made coming here a lot less fun.

No worries and I would never have conflict with someone voicing their opinion in a rational way such as yourself. You make some good points, I'll just have you know my tone likely comes from being fed up of being attacked. It's a bummer because some of the people doing it are friends I have had here for a number of years. There comes a time however when someone purposely mis-characterizes your point of view enough and you just can't take it anymore. Case in point we have new material released and someone gives an honest opinion of the flaws(the irony is the one thing everyone agrees on is that the flaws are there) from that point you get a chorus of people jumping in to attack the poster would made the critique. They don't focus on the opinion, they don't focus on the text, they attack the poster and his right to critique. The part that is absolutely unconscionable is they even take it a step further and claim it is actually "Brandon hate" rather than a valid viewpoint. You can literally count the number of people here at DM who have been unfair to Brandon and attacked him personally on one hand. Everyone knows(or should) not to take them seriously and they are called out by people on both sides of the debate.

 

It is a very sad statement on our society you get a group mentality trying to shout down any dissenting opinion. There quite literally is no higher complement you can pay an author than critiquing his work. Holding Brandon to a standard of what we know he is capable, being the great author he is, is not "hate". The very thought is absolutely absurd and it unfortunately is being stated by many people who should know better.

 

As an aside anyone who says RJ wasn't criticized in the same way after the release of CoT  either wasn't around or is straight up revising history.

 

@Fionwe

 

Lot's of good stuff there, don't agree with it all but well said mate.

[davesmith1983]

As an aside anyone who says RJ wasn't criticized in the same way after the release of CoT  either wasn't around or is straight up revising history.

 

 

I was around for CoT here and wotmania. RJ was certainly criticized for CoT, but he never received the level of textual criticism being aimed at Brandon. Saying otherwise is "straight up revising history."

[Suttree]

 

As an aside anyone who says RJ wasn't criticized in the same way after the release of CoT  either wasn't around or is straight up revising history.

 

 

I was around for CoT here and wotmania. RJ was certainly criticized for CoT, but he never received the level of textual criticism being aimed at Brandon. Saying otherwise is "straight up revising history."

 

Nah mate, you are wrong and the old timers who were here for it have all been very clear about that. You are the sole person who has even tried to dispute it at this point. The criticism was different in relation to him "losing the story" and things moving too slow, while with Brandon it's the unpolished prose, timeline and poor characterization(so yes you could be right about it if you only refer to the "textual" aspect as there are far more issues along those lines in Brandon's work.) It comes down to timing, people think it's worse simply because it what's been going on right now. Overall however they are similar, in fact if IRC there was a time in which every thread seemed to get derailed with the RJ talk, it wasn't just centered around one thread as it is now. Around the CoT release and all the blowback from Jason's review at that time it was all anyone could take about in RJ losing it and both sides were going at each other in a similar manner to now. The difference being people actually gave points for both sides of the debate back then instead of just labeling the critique "hate" and taking the lazy way out by grouping everyone "analysis" side into one group regardless of how reasoned their opinion is.

 

Regardless there is no need to continue with this, hold to your opinion if you want. I just wish posters such as yourself would be more active in all the other threads and not wait until a fire is stirred up to comment. Hope to see more of you every where else now that you are back. Cheers.

[fionwe1987]

 

As an aside anyone who says RJ wasn't criticized in the same way after the release of CoT  either wasn't around or is straight up revising history.

 

 

I was around for CoT here and wotmania. RJ was certainly criticized for CoT, but he never received the level of textual criticism being aimed at Brandon. Saying otherwise is "straight up revising history."

 

 

Well of course he didn't receive the same level of criticism on the "text". Its not like his prose was drastically different in CoT! 

[Manscher]

The opposition to this school of thought simply is stating that we recognize these flaws but that it doesn't take from the overall appreciation as well as the main story as it is being told. The super fan will say that these are just casual fans and that these people are just not "educated enough" where by their opinions should be ignored. No one is outright saying this but that is the feeling that is being implied.

Actually think that parts hit the nail on the head pretty well. While I don't think they intend to sound condescending or demeaning, it's still the very much the vibe they give off.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The opposition to this school of thought simply is stating that we recognize these flaws but that it doesn't take from the overall appreciation as well as the main story as it is being told. The super fan will say that these are just casual fans and that these people are just not "educated enough" where by their opinions should be ignored. No one is outright saying this but that is the feeling that is being implied.

Actually think that parts hit the nail on the head pretty well. While I don't think they intend to sound condescending or demeaning, it's still the very much the vibe they give off.

The problem I have with the first school of thought to my mind is it makes excuses for inferior work. Essentially saying we realize its flawed but that's fine we are getting the ending. I'm sorry but both RJ and Brandon deserve better than that. This is the final work upon which RJ's legacy will be judged and "just getting the ending" isn't nearly good enough.

 

I do want to be clear about the second part. I can only speak for myself but I apologize if my posts have ever come off like that as it was never my intention. In fact as many will recall I've argued quite often that one does not need a lit degree or any special training to analyze the text. From my perspective it goes back to taking critique as a personnel affront. It is odd but it seems as if some people view the critique as an attack on themselves if they don't agree. Having said that to my mind the thisguy thread is a great opportunity for growth on both sides(and yes it should stick to that thread as it has done lately, accusations that it derails every topic at this point are largely over blown). If you follow it there have been periods of time in which everyone communicated in a reasonable manner and literary devices were discussed along with examples of strong prose given. I just wish that everyone could stick to pros and cons of this work of art. All the extras and focus on posters only serves to derail what should be a reasoned debate. That is one way to grow after all and we should not squander this opportunity as we reach the end of RJ's life's work.

 

We have all expressed how thankful we are for the job Brandon has done many times and I hold out hope that AMoL will be the best work yet. After all Team Jordan admitted the issues, they changed Brandon's writing process to polish the prose and they have taken extra time to make sure that they fix the mistakes and get AMoL "right". We have also recently heard from Peter how hard Brandon has been working on this and how proud he is of the finished result. I for one don't think Peter would come on to DM solely to defend his employer. To me it sounds as if he truly believes that the ship has been righted and that the results of all the changes and effort will be plain to see. As much as I have been a vocal critique and even though the pre-materials had some glaring problems(perhaps they were rushed out and that led to the mistakes and rough feel), at this point after much thought I am choosing to put my faith Team Jordan. Think we can all agree that they have earned that trust over the years and as many people have said let's hold our judgment back until AMoL is released. After all I seriously doubt Peter would have said...

Peter

Brandon worked his tail off. He worked harder at it than he works on his own books.

&

Brandon is satisfied with the result and is as proud of the book as he is of his other books.

if this was anything less than his best work in the WoT to date. I for one will be ecstatic to see Brandon in top form. If all we have been told is true, AMoL will be a very special piece of work.

[fuzz1717]

 

RJ's work was critiqued, but to say that it was critiqued in the same manner that Brandon is being critiqued now is revisionist in my opinion. At least in the 15 years I've been following RJ online here and other places, I don't remember ever seeing the level of criticism leveled at RJ that has been leveled at Brandon in regards to timeline issues, continuity, and textual critiques of his prose. Granted, I go in and out of following discussions and I generally just lurk, so I may be misremembering. However, the level of criticism definitely feels "hotter" to me now then when RJ was alive, but maybe that's just my perception.

In the epic RJ vs BS debate, my personal opinion is that Brandon never wrote anything as boring as Crossroads of Twilight.

 

Two excellent posts by Terez and Finowe about appreciating the closure of the saga. Thank you both :)

 

That pretty much sums up my opinion on this whole thing also. As disjointed or deus ex machina BrS's work may be, at the very least it kept me in suspense and entertained when I was reading it. The fact that there is an active board of discussion about his work is a testament to the fact that regardless if it is amazingly written or not, it was successful enough to keep people interested. The greatest honor you can give to a writer is to criticize (both in the positive and negative sense of the word) his or her work, and considering the amount of debate BrS's work has sparked, I think he did a pretty darn good job and should be commended.