Mierin - My Opinion

[Dreggs Morlock]

 

In the context of what is said before and after, this really does sound like a genuine shock and admission by Lanfear. Up until this point, she thinks she is dealing with Rand al'Thor, when she is confronted by LTT, her entire demeanor changes.

Shrug. Not sure why we would trust her, she is a lier and Rand is clear multiple times that she loved power more than him and RJ backs it up with his quotes. Pretty cut and dry...

 

Lanfear counted on the fact that Rand had none of LTT's memories, due to what she did during the war.

 

Now that he has ALL of those memories, she has ZERO chance of swaying him...except for lust.  The epilogue leaves us with 2 questions, IMO:

1) Is Rand suseptible to Lanfear's "charms of the flesh"; and

2) Does Lanfear still have a way into Rand's dreams?

[Viperswhip]

I would like Lanfear to come back to the Light because I am a sucker for pretty ladies, it's why I don't go out very often. There, I was honest. I don't see it as particularly likely.

[Silver Neccho]

 

I find it funny that he did not kill Lews Therin after temporarily curing him of madness. He needed only to strike Lews with balefire and end all possibility of return. It also would have allowed his dream of "ending it all" to come to pass. No Dragon, no Wheel of Time. And on to Suttree..

Yes on to Suttree. First off you seem to have a fundamentally flawed understanding of how balefire works. It is not the eternal death of the soul so I have no idea why you would state the above?

Interview: Nov 21st, 1998

TPOD Signing Report - John Novak (Paraphrased)

John Novak

[is balefire the eternal death of the soul?]

Robert Jordan

If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

As for Asmodean I thank you to not make things up. RJ never said anything of the sort(I know Desp well and he was wrong in that blog post), in fact RJ was quite clear that it was all about self preservation and Asmodean viewed Rand as his only chance. You are going to need to do much better than just saying "well anything is possible" in relation to Lanfear! Virtually all of the evidence points against it.

 

 

---

 

Once again, please address this issue:

 

 

"No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again"

 

No reason to state this in the books if it is not true. Notice also the wording. "that he cannot find the Light again." At this point I honestly believe you will ignore this or point out that it refers to a 'he.' Finding the Light, it is an implied journey, a discovery. Self-preservation is not a 'journey' but a flip flop. As a matter of opinion I do not think that joining the Light out of selfishness is indeed walking in the Light.

 

 

As for Asmodean I thank you to not make things up. RJ never said anything of the sort(I know Desp well and he was wrong in that blog post), in fact RJ was quite clear that it was all about self preservation and Asmodean viewed Rand as his only chance. You are going to need to do much better than just saying "well anything is possible" in relation to Lanfear! Virtually all of the evidence points against it.

 

Whoa pal, you thank me for not making things up? What a load of bull if you think I knew that the blog post was not credible. And I would like to know how the writer got the information he posted. Either it was a quote of RJ or he made it up. I would like to think that your friend did not create such a statement out of his imagination. I am inclined to to believe he did not intentionally create a quote out of mid-air.

 

"Anything is possible?" You took my statement out of context, much like you accused me of doing in regards to RJ's posts.

 

 

RJ did not say what you are accepting as fact. He was describing her character as she was in the previous books and beyond. Until the word "impossible" comes out of the mouth of Brandon, the possibility exists.

 

I am not saying "anything is possible." I am pointing out the arrogance of declaring "divine knowledge" of the final book. As far as I can see, Mierin allowed hatred to control her, much like going down the road of becoming Sith. Anger is what led a few to the Shadow. Anger can be overcome. As far as selfishness, we see that around us everyday in large abundance. Selfishness is a human trait, but it does not mean that someone is evil. Her actions were fueled by anger, the feeling of slight. Mixing a common trait of selfishness, you have a nice pot of nastiness cooking.

 

 

True, authors will reveal things to the readers. But an author will NOT reveal all, especially if the audience is particularily invested. Yes, Mierin does have a lot going against her, but the story is yet unfinished.

 

The author will not reveal everything, doing so would defeat the purpose of talking theory. What we are doing here is exactly what a good author would wish his readers to do. Until the series is complete we only have theories, and that is all anyone on this board and in this discussion have. Theories, not facts, and it a final book will hopefully reveal the answers.

[Suttree]

 

Once again, please address this issue:

 

 

"No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again"

 

No reason to state this in the books if it is not true.

Many things are stated in the text that are not true,  one of the major themes in the WoT is characters not knowing everything they think they do and working of wrong or faulty information. Regardless even if the above is true(although to me it sounds more like a catechism along the lines of ""The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time. The hand of the Creator shelters the world, and the Light shines on us all."

 

Regardless you have to show that Lanfear herself wants to return to the light for non-selfish reasons. There is zero evidence to support it, a huge amount of evidence against it and we find ourselves back to "well anything is possible" in her case. You presented a theory, the evidence has shown to be overwhelmingly against it. Now you can dig in to the books and try and find something to support your idea then we can continue the discussion from there.

 

Finally you cited something as fact with no evidence to support it. Desp writes a blog and as such he is just a fan making a guess at something he thought he remembered. If you are going to use that as evidence you need to provide the actual quote(hint: it doesn't exist).

[Gordar]

There's returning to the light & there's 'returning to the light'.

 

The first option means you actually try to redeem yourself, while the 2nd option means you've abandoned/betrayed the DO.

 

The 1st option seems nearly impossible to me, but the 2nd option might be possible (very unlikely, but still) if Cyndane manages to acquire her cour'souva box thingy.

 

Here's how it'd go (please keep in mind that I'm not RJ or BS & that my writing skills are crappy at best):

 

 

 

Moridin: Soon it'll all end.

 

Cyndane: Yeah yeah, soon you'll rule the newly created world.

 

Moridin: Uhm no. Soon it'll simply all end.

 

Cyndane: What do you mean?

 

Moridin: You don't actually think the Great Lord of the Dark is going to bother recreating a world, do you?

 

Cyndane: Well, yes, that's exactly what I and every other chosen for that matter, thought. 

 

Moridin: I'm not sorry to say this at all, but you're wrong!

 

Cyndane: Keeping that & your writings in mind (Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, The Disassembly of Reason & probably other books as well) I think I finally figured out why you joined the DO.

 

Moridin: Yup, oh, by the way, it's the Great Lord of the Dark, not the Dark One. I guess I'll have to punish you again.

 

 

Some time later....

 

 

Cyndane: I hope that tea party Moridin is having with Demandred will last some time. Hmm, look there, Isn't that  my cour'souva laying on the table over there? It is! This is starting to resemble some old EA (Electronic Arts, they'll acquire the rights to make the ... quest games in the very distant future, at least in this reality) holographic game like King's Quest MCLXII which I used to play back in the Age of Legends. Unusual thing laying around on tables & stuff, you only see that in those games. Better use this opportunity while I still can.

 

 

A while later, somewhere in the blight, Cyndane happily hops southwards.

 

 

Cyndane; Hmm... now what? I can't just join those weaklings trying to stop Moridin & Co., they'll balefire me as soon as I tell them who I am. Besides, I want power, more power, even more power, yummy, power. Let's hide in the bushes for a moment. *enter private Cyndane moment here*

 

 

Some time later

 

 

Cyndane: Where was I? Power! I want it, need it, crave it, etc. etc.. But I certainly won't get it from those fools who think they stand a chance against the DO & I don't think I can return to the DO either, having betrayed him & everything. Do I hear a sound over there?

 

Alanna walks on stage.

 

Cyndane: Hey you there. Aren't you one of those unimportant, nearly unnoticable 3rd age darkfriends? You know, the kind that gives you a dirty feeling just looking at them?

Alanna: Yup, I'm Alanna Mosvani, but you can call me Alanna Sedai of the Green/Black Ajah. (merely an idea, not a theory or anything like that, there are different scenario's where Cyndane might meet light serving Alanna alone, but most would require much more writing from my part)

 

Cyndane: I'll call you whatever I... Did you just say Alanna Mosvani? The Alanna Sedai that holds Lews Therin's bond? I think I remember Moghedien saying something along those lines. 

 

Alanna: You know Moghedien?!?

 

Cyndane: Well yes, I am one of the Chosen after all. Let's hope Moridin hasn't made it public knowledge yet that I've run away...

 

Alanna: What can i do for you, great mistress?

 

Cyndane: Pass his bond to me.

 

Alanna: Who'se bond?

 

Cyndane: Lews Therin... I mean Rand's bond.

 

Alanna: Okay.

 

(this dialogue would be slightly different if Alanna serves the light)

 

 

 

Cyndane: Teehee, now that I have Lews Therin's bond, the light can no longer kill me without risking their precious dragon! Bwahahaha! Now I'm off to Shara, the Isle of the Madmen or Seanchan. Well, let's skip Seanchan, I'm not sure I'd like those a'dam. WAIT! If the DO wins, carving a little kingdom for myself won't be very useful... Drats and double drats & now I actually have to help those fools sealing the bore. They'll probably need some duct tape. It's a good thing I never go anywhere without it. 

 

to be continued (but not by me)

 

Maybe she'll survive & flee, maybe she won't. Considering the fact that Rand has been bonded by multiple women, the effect of one of them dying might not be as extreme as it usually is.

[Kamin_Majere]

lol

 

You forgot to use "go light" a few times

[MarkDiLillo]

I had always been a big believer than she would turn back to the Light and that her dream sequence at the end had been genuine and not a trap.

 

I've posted about it in detail in the past so I will just real quickly summarize here:

 

1)  She is the Forsaken we know the most about and who has appeared the most in the series.  Some others have been throughout the series, but none have received the screen time that Lanfear had.

 

2)  Her backstory was told in detail.  A little tidbit about her opening the bore was intentionally revealed by RJ.  This is important considering every other Forsaken has a rather generic and insignificant backstory.

 

3)  Nearly every action she has taken in the series has been to help Rand and his friends.  I understand that her motivation is not pure and is selfish, but from the readers sake she would be very easy to redeem in the story because of this.

 

4)  She hasn't killed any non-DF directly in the series except for when she went nuts at the docks.  Again, no terrible deeds = easy to redeem.

 

5)  Her backstory only suggests she had done evil during the War of Power, but no details revealed.  Same as above.

 

6)  She clearly doesn't serve the DO the same way the others do and puts herself first.  This is an important distinction and separates her from the others.

 

So in summary, she is unique amongst the Forsaken and the story has set her up for an easy path to redemption that the readers would all embrace.  The other Forsaken are shown as despicable and terrible people.  She is portrayed only as selfish and obsessed.  She is also the counterpart to Moridin - the two most powerful Forsaken.

 

Why would RJ go out of his way to write Lanfear as so unique if she wasn't going to be redeemed?  At the very least, she will have a very important part in the ending.

 

All that being said, the more I read and am disappointed by what is released the more I am expecting a gigantic let down with her just dying again as a generic bad guy.

[rand4747]

If any of the forsaken, forsake the darkone It might be like how Ingtar did, die to help them, not change sides and fight with them. Ingtar knew he could not change to the light and survive, he was still a darkfriend and had to die. no one would trust a former darkfriend. So death was the only way he could redeem himself. The children of the light had it right in their own twisted way. The person confesses and forsakes the shadow before they are killed.

[dhazeghi]

I had always been a big believer than she would turn back to the Light and that her dream sequence at the end had been genuine and not a trap.

 

I've posted about it in detail in the past so I will just real quickly summarize here:

 

5)  Her backstory only suggests she had done evil during the War of Power, but no details revealed.  Same as above.

 

6)  She clearly doesn't serve the DO the same way the others do and puts herself first.  This is an important distinction and separates her from the others.

 

So in summary, she is unique amongst the Forsaken and the story has set her up for an easy path to redemption that the readers would all embrace.  The other Forsaken are shown as despicable and terrible people.  She is portrayed only as selfish and obsessed.  She is also the counterpart to Moridin - the two most powerful Forsaken.

 

Unfortunately, she also has a personal grudge against Rand.  We get her PoV near the end of WH, and she wants him dead and those are her thoughts independent of Moridin's orders.  Doesn't seem to leave much room for redemption.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

It's just cause she is so damn hot, isn't it? Admit it.

[Morden]

 

2) Does Lanfear still have a way into Rand's dreams?

 

His dreams are warded, to my knowledge the only one who can touch them is Moridin due to the bond they share. Which means his vision of Meirin is almost certainly a trap sent to him through Moridin.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

2) Does Lanfear still have a way into Rand's dreams?

 

His dreams are warded, to my knowledge the only one who can touch them is Moridin due to the bond they share. Which means his vision of Meirin is almost certainly a trap sent to him through Moridin.

Indeed, Brandon's comments on the topic concerning Lanfear practically gaurauntees it's a trap as well.

[Kamin_Majere]

Yeah and like the good little hero he's going to fall right in it I fear. Just once I would like to see a hero that can recognize so obvious an attempt AND just ignore it

[Morden]

Yeah and like the good little hero he's going to fall right in it I fear. Just once I would like to see a hero that can recognize so obvious an attempt AND just ignore it

Ive been reading Mark Lawrences Thorns books and that made me crease. The main Character is a serious anti-hero. he'd probably set off a nuke under them. The guy shot one of his friends with a crossbow to kill the bad guy behind him.

 

 

But thats besides the point really. The idea of a hero is that he's willing to risk his own life to save someone else, so in a sense they wouldnt be what they are if they had the right mindset to think about the risks. They'd be sat at home with a cup of hot chocolate relaxing infront of the fire.

[Kamin_Majere]

I'm not saying i want Rand to go full dark side/anti hero, i just kind of want him to see the trap (which he does) recognize the trap (which he does) and then don't fall for it (which we all know he will)

 

Willingness to help others is great, but its not like a good person is being tortured... heck its not even like a bad person is being tortured... its a forsaken.  One of the dark ones own chosen, the ones that happily burned utopia to ash and delighted in it.  There is no tactical gain from her rescue, there's not even a moral one.  All this is going to do is to turn out badly for Rand... and the worst bloody thing is he knows it, and is going to whistle happily while stepping right in to it.

[dhazeghi]

Yeah and like the good little hero he's going to fall right in it I fear. Just once I would like to see a hero that can recognize so obvious an attempt AND just ignore it

 

I think it would be somewhat keeping in character though - he's let his prejudices regarding women cloud his judgment in the past.  Also, while I like the Dark Rand/Zen Rand transition, I'm finding Zen Rand just a bit too controlled and sure of himself.  A hero who doesn't make any mistakes isn't all that interesting either.

[MarkDiLillo]

If that dream sequence at the end is an intentional trap I'll be so annoyed.  It simply could not have been so poorly written.

 

1)  Why would Rand try to save Lanfear?  He has never even once shown himself to favor her or do anything helpful to her.  Why set a trap with crap bait?

 

2)  Why would she appear in her new body when its a dream?  Just hoping that he would by chance "recognize her soul"?  Again, crap bait for a trap.

 

3)  She didn't technically even ask for help if I remember correctly.  She was just pleading for it to end while revealing zero details or information or any hook for Rand to grab onto and follow her.  She just had some corny and really weird dialogue about Moridin being a jerk.

 

If it's a trap then it is terrible work by the author.  I dont care if it's RJ or BS (though the writing clearly indicates Sanderson wrote at least portions of it), it makes zero sense from our perspective.  If it's a trap it totally breaks the narrative apart and is just being used as a horrible plot device for something else.  Very little thought went into it if this is the case.

 

I mean...."oh hey...there is one of my worst enemies that killed my closest advisor that I actually trusted and liked....she's being tortured....AWESOME SHES GETTING WHAT SHE DESERVES!!!"  That's the more likely reaction than "omg i need to save her shes a girl!!!  poor lanfear!"

 

Just really doesn't add up well IMO.  For those reasons I dont think it's a trap - but in all honesty I am really bracing myself for it being a trap anyways and the entire scene being a really terrible plot device that is being used to setup something else important in the last book.

[Finnssss22]

@Mark D

The "Thisguy's..." thread is that way --->

[Suttree]

@Mark D

The "Thisguy's..." thread is that way --->

+1

 

There are two active threads where quality can be discussed right now. Lets please try and keep it there.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ya ok.  Or we can just pretend that I wasn't explaining why I dont think its a trap.  We can also pretend that what I wrote belongs in another thread and not in this one.

[Finnssss22]

Ya ok.  Or we can just pretend that I wasn't explaining why I dont think its a trap.  We can also pretend that what I wrote belongs in another thread and not in this one.

 

Ya and we can just pretend that your explanation wasn't just a thinly vieled excuse to rip BS again.

 

Seriously dude, this is EXACTLY the kind of bashing seepage everyone is sick of seeing in other threads.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Ya ok.  Or we can just pretend that I wasn't explaining why I dont think its a trap.  We can also pretend that what I wrote belongs in another thread and not in this one.

 

Ya and we can just pretend that your explanation wasn't just a thinly vieled excuse to rip BS again.

 

Seriously dude, this is EXACTLY the kind of bashing seepage everyone is sick of seeing in other threads.

 

 

Actually it wasn't at all. 

 

 

"If that dream sequence at the end is an intentional trap I'll be so annoyed. It simply could not have been so poorly written."

 

Pretty clear here.  I am saying that it cannot be so poorly written.  Flat out saying that I do not think this is the case.

 

"1) Why would Rand try to save Lanfear? He has never even once shown himself to favor her or do anything helpful to her. Why set a trap with crap bait?

 

2) Why would she appear in her new body when its a dream? Just hoping that he would by chance "recognize her soul"? Again, crap bait for a trap.

 

3) She didn't technically even ask for help if I remember correctly. She was just pleading for it to end while revealing zero details or information or any hook for Rand to grab onto and follow her. She just had some corny and really weird dialogue about Moridin being a jerk."

 

 

Nothing about quality here.  Simply supplying reasons why a trap would make no sense from the readers perspective.

 

 

"If it's a trap then it is terrible work by the author. I dont care if it's RJ or BS (though the writing clearly indicates Sanderson wrote at least portions of it), it makes zero sense from our perspective. If it's a trap it totally breaks the narrative apart and is just being used as a horrible plot device for something else. Very little thought went into it if this is the case."

 

Here I am mentioning quality.  Notice how I say I dont care if it is RJ or BS?  I merely say that IF IT ENDS UP BEING A TRAP then it is a terrible break in the narrative and makes no sense.  Nowhere do I accuse BS of being a bad author or call his work poor or criticize this scene.  I merely point out that it makes no sense if it ends up being a trap and if it ends up that way then whoever is responsible for this did a poor job whether it be RJ or BS.  It very well could have been in RJ's notes - this is not a detail problem or anything similar.  This would be a plot issue.

 

 

"I mean...."oh hey...there is one of my worst enemies that killed my closest advisor that I actually trusted and liked....she's being tortured....AWESOME SHES GETTING WHAT SHE DESERVES!!!" That's the more likely reaction than "omg i need to save her shes a girl!!! poor lanfear!"

 

Just really doesn't add up well IMO. For those reasons I dont think it's a trap - but in all honesty I am really bracing myself for it being a trap anyways and the entire scene being a really terrible plot device that is being used to setup something else important in the last book."

 

Now here in the last sentence I finally say something that implies I am unhappy with BS's work.  And I do it by saying given what we've seen in the past, I would not be surprised if this ended up being a trap and was poor writing.  Notice how literally my entire post was on topic and had nothing to do with Brandon Sanderson until the last sentence saying that I may be wrong because there have been inconsistencies in the past since the new author took over?

 

Reading comprehension.  It's important.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree that 90% of your post was fine. Expressing the opinion that it would be a bad plot device if it turned out to be a trap is fine. 

 

However, as you yourself point out, the last 10% does involve Brandon discontent. So next time, I would say just leave out the 10% and it would be fine. 

[Finnssss22]

I agree that 90% of your post was fine. Expressing the opinion that it would be a bad plot device if it turned out to be a trap is fine. 

 

However, as you yourself point out, the last 10% does involve Brandon discontent. So next time, I would say just leave out the 10% and it would be fine. 

Bingo

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Until we all read that last book...althing is possible.

 

I doubt it.  But it IS possible.