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Mierin - My Opinion


Silver Neccho
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I have a few reason for why I believe Lanfear/Mierin will turn back to the Light. This is not to say she will turn to the Light for the purpose of self-preservation. I believe she will embrace the Light fully and I plan to explain why.

 

1. Her actions during the War of the Shadow. Specifically her protection of the Da'shain Aiel.

 

 

Sounds of merrymaking rolled out to meet him before he reached the town—laughing, singing. The bells in the town hall tower began ringing exuberantly. Townspeople danced in the streets, men and women and children. Coumin dodged between them, searching. Charn had elected to stay at one of the inns where the Aiel were putting up instead of coming to the singing—even the Aes Sedai could no longer do much for the aches in his aged knees—but surely he would be out for this.

Abruptly something struck Coumin in the mouth and his legs buckled; he was pushing himself to his knees before he realized he was down. A hand put to his mouth came away bloody. He looked up to find an angry faced townsman standing over him, nursing a fist. “Why did you do that?” he asked.
The townsman spat at him. “The Forsaken are dead. Dead, do you hear? Lanfear will not protect you anymore. We will root out all of you who served the Forsaken while pretending to be on our side, and treat the lot of you as we treated that crazy old man.”

A woman was tugging at the man’s arm. “Come away, Toma. Come away, and hold your foolish tongue! Do you want the Ogier to come for you?” Suddenly wary, the man let her pull him away into the crowd.

Struggling to his feet, Coumin began to run, heedless of the blood oozing down his chin.
The inn was empty, silent. Not even the innkeeper was there, or the cook, or her helpers. Coumin ran through the building shouting, “Charn? Charn?Charn?”

Out back, maybe. Charn liked to sit under the spiceapple trees behind the inn, and tell his stories of the days when he was young.

Coumin ran out the back door, and tripped, falling on his face. It was an empty boot that had caught his toe. One of Charn’s red dress boots that he wore all the time, now that he no longer joined in the singing. Something made Coumin look up.
Charn’s white-haired body hung from a rope pulled over the ridgepole, one foot bare where he had kicked his boot off, the fingers of one hand caught at his neck where he had tried to pull the rope free.

“Why?” Coumin said. “We are Da’shain. Why?” There was no one to answer. Clutching the boot to his chest, he knelt there, staring up at Charn, as the noise of revelry washed over him.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" - Coumin & Rand's point of view

 

I this interesting; when you realize that they very man that served her personally was the ancestor of Rand al'Thor you have to wonder if this is a connection RJ purposefully put into the series. It means more to me now then when I originally read this passage.

 

2. This statement to Lanfear by Ishamael:

 

"the Great Lord's oaths are not so easily broken as the bonds of the Light that you forsook "

 

3. Reincarnated as Cyndane, she was placed in a mindtrap. She had not openly defied the DO as Lanfear so why the need for the mindtrap? Not to mention, why defy the DO? She is really not dedicated to the Shadow as I see it. Yes, she may be morally corrupt but it takes true allegiance to the DO to truly be of the Shadow, look at Fain. I believe she is in the mindtrap because Moridin does not trust her to keep her oaths to the DO.

 

4. At the end of ToM she calls out to Rand, pleading. Since when has anyone in the series ever been able to telepathically communicate with out aid? She is pleading to him because she understands mercy and is willing to accept it. Anyone who accepts mercy must accept that such exists as well as value the action itself.

 

5. Her love for Rand. Obsession or not, even obsession has roots that are honest and loving. Narcissistic people are capable of love, sociopaths are not. Since she is obviously not the latter I can only believe that at least at one time Mierin did in fact love Rand.

 

6. RJ did state that Mierin had been ripe for the Shadow's picking well before the Bore. But then I realized something about the Bore itself. There were those who could sense the True Power even before the DO was allowed to touch the world. Mierin must have spent years or months at the least in it's presence. I believe that yes, Mierin would have been easily swayed to the Shadow. But I believe that this was only because of her long proximity to the evil of the True Power. She was literally basking in it's evil. Just like the taint, the longer you are exposed the more it takes you in.

 

7. Not sure how it ties into this but Mierin was the only Forsaken to pick their new name. She was already standing out from all the other Forsaken. I believe this is an act of defiance in of itself. She would control her own, not allowing others.

 

This is all for now. I have thought long and hard about Mierin switching sides. As to others trusting her, the White Tower has a perfect method to ensure her honesty, the Oath Rod.

 

Please give me your thoughts. I know there have been other threads similar to this but most are old or too long for me to catch up with.

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5. Her love for Rand. Obsession or not, even obsession has roots that are honest and loving. Narcissistic people are capable of love, sociopaths are not. Since she is obviously not the latter I can only believe that at least at one time Mierin did in fact love Rand.

Just going to touch on a couple of these. First off she did not love Rand, she loved the power of the association not the man himself according to the BWB. Also Rand says flat out....

 

TSR

 

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true—he knew they were true—but where had they come from? Selene – Lanfear – seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

Notice she doesn't even try and deny it, she is just surprised he remembered. We also have from RJ...

 

RJ

"Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance."

 

 

 

6. RJ did state that Mierin had been ripe for the Shadow's picking well before the Bore. But then I realized something about the Bore itself. There were those who could sense the True Power even before the DO was allowed to touch the world. Mierin must have spent years or months at the least in it's presence. I believe that yes, Mierin would have been easily swayed to the Shadow. But I believe that this was only because of her long proximity to the evil of the True Power. She was literally basking in it's evil. Just like the taint, the longer you are exposed the more it takes you in.

You have taken this totally out of context and are ignoring a crucial piece. It's very obvious he was referring to her personality and he specifically rules out what you claim.

 

RJ

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

The only chance she comnes back to the light is for self preservation or power. Her character flaws have been well established and RJ makes clear what her true motivations are. It would be utterly unrealistic for her to all of a sudden want to do good.

Edited by Suttree
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You didn't address points 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7.

 

In regards to RJ addressing Mierin before the Bore, he does not ACTUALLY DENY my claim. She may have been a weak-minded person at the time, easily swayed by glory and power. He also says she was ripe for the picking way before the Bore. How long had the project been going before they made the Bore is the question. "Way before the Bore" does not neccessarily mean before the project began. The taint of the Dark One may have inadvertently swayed a possibly weak-minded individual therefore making her "ripe for the taking."

 

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

 

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5. Her love for Rand. Obsession or not, even obsession has roots that are honest and loving. Narcissistic people are capable of love, sociopaths are not. Since she is obviously not the latter I can only believe that at least at one time Mierin did in fact love Rand.

Just going to touch on a couple of these. First off she did not love Rand, she loved the power of the association not the man himself according to the BWB. Also Rand says flat out....

 

TSR

 

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true—he knew they were true—but where had they come from? Selene – Lanfear – seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

Notice she doesn't even try and deny it, she is just surprised he remembered. We also have from RJ...

 

RJ

"Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance."

 

 

 

6. RJ did state that Mierin had been ripe for the Shadow's picking well before the Bore. But then I realized something about the Bore itself. There were those who could sense the True Power even before the DO was allowed to touch the world. Mierin must have spent years or months at the least in it's presence. I believe that yes, Mierin would have been easily swayed to the Shadow. But I believe that this was only because of her long proximity to the evil of the True Power. She was literally basking in it's evil. Just like the taint, the longer you are exposed the more it takes you in.

You have taken this totally out of context and are ignoring a crucial piece. It's very obvious he was referring to her personality and he specifically rules out what you claim.

 

RJ

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

The only chance she comnes back to the light is for self preservation or power. Her character flaws have been well established and RJ makes clear what her true motivations are. It would be utterly unrealistic for her to all of a sudden want to do good.

 

 

 

Very well said Sutree.  I had a thread on here a couple days ago of things we are all tired of hearing and this very thing was on that list.  I'll give the shorter version of my post.

 

The Forsaken WILL NOT come back to the light.  They have openly served the Dark One.  They have done his bidding.  They have tortured entire cities, committed outright murder.  Their crimes and reputation are so famous that 3000 years later people still invoke their names to frighten children to behave.  The Dark One is Randland's SATAN.  There is nobody, not one person, on the side of the Light who would say to any of the Forsaken: "Sure, we can use your help.  Glad you came back to the Light". 

 

I don't mean to beat a dead horse to death but Forsaken turning back to the Light, Demandred is Taim, Taim is Moridin, and Olver is Gaidal Cain are all things that no matter how many times it's told or how many different ways it's spun out are all things that are not true and will not happen. 

 

Sorry, I do like that you clearly put time and thought into your post.  There's never anything wrong with wishful thinking either, but everytime I see somebody put up a new way or reasoning that the Forsaken will turn to the Light just makes me say "C'mon, man!"

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The quotes you use Suttree do not say that Lanfear did not love LTT/Rand, only that she wasn't purely in love, which is a stupid movie concept anyway. Cognizant or not we measure things about those we are attracted to, it's not all just chemical or fate or what have you.

 

So, she loved LTT AND she loved Power and she wanted dominance.

 

I am not saying she will turn back to the light or that she is a more likely candidate than any other Forsaken but your quotes don't mean she didn't love Rand, just that maybe that love was not her biggest priority in pursuing him.

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I've only the first point to address, but I see no real evidence that Lanfear protected the Aiel. It's no less than a lynch mob to make that claim and it seems far more likely they went after the first person with the vaguest connection to a Forsaken rather than Lanfear having anything to do with the Aiel after joining the Shadow.

 

 

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The quotes you use Suttree do not say that Lanfear did not love LTT/Rand, only that she wasn't purely in love, which is a stupid movie concept anyway.

Errmm are you just ignoring the Rand quote and the fact that RJ states flat out she would not do anyting good for Rand's sake? That is not love and sure as hell isn't "honest". The BWB is clear, she loved power more than the man. That contradicts the point made by the op.

 

You didn't address points 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7. In regards to RJ addressing Mierin before the Bore, he does not ACTUALLY DENY my claim. She may have been a weak-minded person at the time, easily swayed by glory and power. He also says she was ripe for the picking way before the Bore. How long had the project been going before they made the Bore is the question. "Way before the Bore" does not neccessarily mean before the project began. The taint of the Dark One may have inadvertently swayed a possibly weak-minded individual therefore making her "ripe for the taking." Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Which is why I said "just going to touch a couple of these". I don't regard any of them to be relevant to the subject really, they all are a pretty big stretch. For instance we already know from Brandon that the ToM communication from her is all but certain to be a trap, nothing at all to do with understanding mercy. We know that Moridin says he placed her in the mindtrap for her failures, a throwaway line about people not going after Aiel because of "Lanfear's protection" doesn't mean that she actively was trying to work for their good. In fact as RJ stated she wouldn't even do good for Rand's sake, if that is the case she certainly wouldn't do it for others etc...

 

Second your intepertation above ignores all context in the overall quote(as an aside the person who asked the question clearly said "the project leading to the drilling of the bore") along with the line "of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow". If what you say is true many more, including Beidomon would have gone over. You really don't have much ground to stand on here.

 

You seriously have to ignore the vast majority of textual and author evidence to reach the conclusions that you have. RJ was beyond clear on her character motivations and saying she will switch for anyting other than self preservation ignores mountains of evidence to the contrary.

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If lanfear turns to the light i'll eat a boot.

 

And even if she does, what does anyone expect to happen... that she becomes some great champion of the light?  

 

This is how it would happen.

Lanfear "Hey guys i'm all good guy now, go light"

Rand "That's awesome, remember that time you fed 3 whole cities to trollocs during the war of power?"

Lanfear "yeah, but n..."

Rand: [balefire]

Rand "yeah yeah tell it to someone that cares"

 

Maybe its not put forth enough in the book, but that ANYONE can like(as something than a good villian) or imagine these people coming back to the side of the light is unimaginable to me.  They murdered and tortured MILLIONS during the war of power.  It would literally like Hitler coming to the allies in WW2 and going "yeah i know i killed millions but i'm a good guy now"  :dry:

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We also know that Lanfear was at the top in terms of atrocities...

 

BWB

She was involved in many atrocities, perhaps more than most of the Forsaken, but the people she governed had more than the usual horrors of the Shadow to face; they feared sleep itself. Suicide rates were extremely high in her territory, even considering the fact that suicide was endemic in all the conquered territories

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I don't think that one of the forsaken cannot come back to light but can help the light for her/his cause. Maybe, Moridin will understand there is no way for shadow to win this game so he can help the light. However, they are so evil and did many evil things, so they cannot turn back to light.

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5. Her love for Rand. Obsession or not, even obsession has roots that are honest and loving. Narcissistic people are capable of love, sociopaths are not. Since she is obviously not the latter I can only believe that at least at one time Mierin did in fact love Rand.
Just going to touch on a couple of these. First off she did not love Rand, she loved the power of the association not the man himself according to the BWB. Also Rand says flat out.... TSR
You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!” “And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true—he knew they were true—but where had they come from? Selene – Lanfear – seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.
Notice she doesn't even try and deny it, she is just surprised he remembered. We also have from RJ... RJ
"Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance."
6. RJ did state that Mierin had been ripe for the Shadow's picking well before the Bore. But then I realized something about the Bore itself. There were those who could sense the True Power even before the DO was allowed to touch the world. Mierin must have spent years or months at the least in it's presence. I believe that yes, Mierin would have been easily swayed to the Shadow. But I believe that this was only because of her long proximity to the evil of the True Power. She was literally basking in it's evil. Just like the taint, the longer you are exposed the more it takes you in.
You have taken this totally out of context and are ignoring a crucial piece. It's very obvious he was referring to her personality and he specifically rules out what you claim. RJ
As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.
The only chance she comnes back to the light is for self preservation or power. Her character flaws have been well established and RJ makes clear what her true motivations are. It would be utterly unrealistic for her to all of a sudden want to do good.
Very well said Sutree. I had a thread on here a couple days ago of things we are all tired of hearing and this very thing was on that list. I'll give the shorter version of my post. The Forsaken WILL NOT come back to the light. They have openly served the Dark One. They have done his bidding. They have tortured entire cities, committed outright murder. Their crimes and reputation are so famous that 3000 years later people still invoke their names to frighten children to behave. The Dark One is Randland's SATAN. There is nobody, not one person, on the side of the Light who would say to any of the Forsaken: "Sure, we can use your help. Glad you came back to the Light". I don't mean to beat a dead horse to death but Forsaken turning back to the Light, Demandred is Taim, Taim is Moridin, and Olver is Gaidal Cain are all things that no matter how many times it's told or how many different ways it's spun out are all things that are not true and will not happen. Sorry, I do like that you clearly put time and thought into your post. There's never anything wrong with wishful thinking either, but everytime I see somebody put up a new way or reasoning that the Forsaken will turn to the Light just makes me say "C'mon, man!"
"The Forsaken WILL NOT come back to the light." I really only need show that quote of yours. It is laughable coming from a community that has yet to read the final book. I am speaking possibility, you are speaking as if you have supernatural sight into the future. If the Forsaken WILL NOT come back to the light, how can you explain "the Great Lord's oaths are not so easily broken as the bonds of the Light that you forsook "? Not to mention the statements in the book about there being none so taken in to the Shadow so far that they cannot return to the light. Why mention this at all if it was not possible as you say?

 

 

"No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again"

 

 

As to not one of the Forsaken being accepted by anyone in Randland, I believe Rand would in the case of a few. He is changed since destroying the Choden Kal. The reasons many of the Forsaken turned are altogether petty. One turned because he was tired of being second to Rand. One turned because he wanted retribution against those who did not like his music. Graendal changed because after a long life of suffrage and the believe that everyone else was inferior to her ascetic life, she craved the opposite secretly. The list goes on. So loose was their reason that it cannot possibly hold for all in the future. Asmodean, if he were still alive would be my best guess as fully turning to the light. I quote the following from http://www.dragonmount.com/index.php/News/theoryblog/it-works-in-theory-no-man-can-stand-in-th-r190

Asmodean (AKA Jasin Natael) Age of Legends name: Joar Addam Nesossin Age of Legends occupation: Composer, Musician This male Forsaken had by far the strangest reason for turning to the Shadow. He grew up a child prodigy, and many around the world expected great things from him, seeing his potential. He didn't quite fulfill this potential, though, and this left a bad taste in his mouth. When given the opportunity to gain immortality through linking with the Dark One, Asmodean accepted, thinking that with more time he could end up fully realizing his potential. He was beaten in the confrontation with Rand al'Thor in The Shadow Rising and bound by Lanfear in order to deliver to Rand the perfect tutor. Once captured, however, it became obvious that the evil that existed in Asmodean in no way compared to the evil inside the likes of Semirhage. I couldn't find the quote amidst all the "who killed Asmodean" questions for the author, but I do remember hearing that Robert Jordan confirmed that Asmodean had indeed turned towards and was walking in the Light. Verdict: 9 out of 10 to play it safe
Ishamael (AKA Ba'alzamon, AKA Moridin, AKA Heartfang) Age of Legends name: Elan Morin Tedronai Age of Legends occupation: Philosopher, Author The baddest of the bad, the darkest of the dark, the Nae'blis, the maddest of the mad, the Betrayer of Hope himself. If Rand al'Thor is the Champion of the Light, then Moridin is almost assuredly the Champion of the Dark. Ishamael has been poised to be the Shadow's best chance of foiling the Dragon Reborn the whole series, and in his mind for the entire infinite history of the Wheel of Time, so there's no chance he converts to the forces of the Light, right? Not so fast, Mr. Hotfoot. Let's take a second to look this over. It appears the main reason Ishamael first turned to the Shadow (and he was the first by the way) was an existential quandary. Unlike many of his peers, he saw no glory or benefit in the promise of immortality. Instead, he was actually searching for an end to what he thought was a cosmic joke being played on all the citizens of the world of the Wheel of Time. Endless turnings of the wheel with no differences, no growth, no lessons learned--all that held no interest for Ishamael. Incidentally, Rand himself actually experiences this same internal conflict during the famous scene "Veins of Gold" in The Gathering Storm. He almost comes to the same conclusion his dark counterpart comes to, but at the last second has a sudden epiphany of what makes it all worth it: love. What does this have to do with Ishamael? Remember, there is a very real link between the two, and foreshadowing has hinted of either a merger or swap between the two since the very first book. During said transfer of souls and/or minds, maybe Ishamael will suddenly be able to see what he's been missing out on all these millenia. This fresh new perspective helping Ishamael to return to the Light might even be one of the keys to helping the forces of Light win. Verdict: 8 out of 10
I find it funny that he did not kill Lews Therin after temporarily curing him of madness. He needed only to strike Lews with balefire and end all possibility of return. It also would have allowed his dream of "ending it all" to come to pass. No Dragon, no Wheel of Time. And on to Suttree...
You seriously have to ignore the vast majority of textual and author evidence to reach the conclusions that you have. RJ was beyond clear on her character motivations and saying she will switch for anyting other than self preservation ignores mountains of evidence to the contrary.
RJ did not say what you are accepting as fact. He was describing her character as she was in the previous books and beyond. Until the word "impossible" comes out of the mouth of Brandon, the possibility exists. True, authors will reveal things to the readers. But an author will NOT reveal all, especially if the audience is particularily invested. Yes, Mierin does have a lot going against her, but the story is yet unfinished. We are also talking as if a person can not change drastically. Many of the Forsaken made a drastic change by turning to the Shadow. One can as easily revert or improve on what they once were. Ishamael for one, Asmodean as well. For Asmodean it took capture and months of mercy at the hands of Rand. Even RJ said that he was "walking in the light". He was no longer walking in the shadow. He was free of the DO, both in spirit and the severing of his connection. It is likely because of this, and based on what I read from the books, that the Shadow chose not to bring him back from death. Edited by Silver Neccho
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I find it funny that he did not kill Lews Therin after temporarily curing him of madness. He needed only to strike Lews with balefire and end all possibility of return. It also would have allowed his dream of "ending it all" to come to pass. No Dragon, no Wheel of Time. And on to Suttree..

Yes on to Suttree. First off you seem to have a fundamentally flawed understanding of how balefire works. It is not the eternal death of the soul so I have no idea why you would state the above?

Interview: Nov 21st, 1998John Novak
[is balefire the eternal death of the soul?]
Robert Jordan
If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.
As for Asmodean I thank you to not make things up. RJ never said anything of the sort(I know Desp well and he was wrong in that blog post), in fact RJ was quite clear that it was all about self preservation and Asmodean viewed Rand as his only chance. You are going to need to do much better than just saying "well anything is possible" in relation to Lanfear! Virtually all of the evidence points against it.
Edited by Suttree
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It doesn't really matter why they turned to the dark... by large except for Ishamael all their reasons amounted to childrens hissy fits.  Its what they did to prove themselves Chosen that pretty much damns them.  Most people like to point at Lanfear and Asmoden as possibly returning to the light, but nothing in their character make ups even remotely points to that.  These people were raised above all others in the midst of the war of power for exactly their strength, cruelty, and ambition.  Some of them might not have started 100% pure evil but after 100 years of raping and murdering their way across civilization none of them have any shred of humanity left in them.  Each and every one of them rank right below the Dark One and Madashar for pure unapologetic evil.

 

Everyone like to bring up "but lanfear loves..." "but asmodean was nice..."  None of that matters.  These are the very same people that severed and fed their own mothers to trollocs, that took pleasure in making people so scared of dreams that their sanity snapped from lack of sleep, that killed Millions in a war that lasted 100 years.  And no matter what the other Friends of the Dark did... THESE people were the ones that stood above even them as the Chosen.

 

Again i think the forsaken are down played to much in the book.  

The whole moggy thing is pretty much the low point of the wonder girls lives IMO.  They took one of the most vile humans to ever walk creation and captured her... did they try to make her face justice... no they ignored the countless crimes against humanity this woman committed and instead used her as a teacher and a "poor maid".  Again i'm going to reference Hitler here.  in 1945 you capture hitler... do you submit him to justice, or do you ask him to teach you to draw pictures?  There is something wrong with your moral compass if you do otherwise, and thats a lot of the reason i dislike the wondergirls (and Rand) they can NEVER claim a moral high ground after something like this.  I often laugh at Rand for trying to use morality because he freakin hid a forsaken and help him from justice... its almost inconceivable to me that someone could do that.

 

lol i just realized this turned into a rant... my apologies, i'm just going to stop here because its only going to get worse i fear :smile:

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"Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha!
She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her.
Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him.
To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....
Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance."

The strange thing here is that he almost seems to be contradicting his own writing.

 

When discussing in a thread about which Forsaken would turn recently I mentioned Dem and Ishy as possibles because I didn't see it happening with Cyndane because almost all that is left of her seems to be a hate for Rand. But I read a quote from tFoH that made me wonder. It was one of the first scenes where we see LTT really coming out in Rand's mind.....

 

 

"You were always ambitious, Mierin." His voice grated in his ears. "Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You' were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!"

 

LTT never loved her? Then what's all that business about LTT saying he turned away from her and that she was in his heart at some point?

 

 

She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. "Graendal said. . ." she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. "Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!"

 

In the context of what is said before and after, this really does sound like a genuine shock and admission by Lanfear. Up until this point, she thinks she is dealing with Rand al'Thor, when she is confronted by LTT, her entire demeanor changes.

 

I am not saying I expect Cyndane to turn back. But at the very least it should be very interesting to see what happens when she is faced with a fully integrated Rand/LTT.

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In the context of what is said before and after, this really does sound like a genuine shock and admission by Lanfear. Up until this point, she thinks she is dealing with Rand al'Thor, when she is confronted by LTT, her entire demeanor changes.

Shrug. Not sure why we would trust her, she is a lier and Rand is clear multiple times that she loved power more than him and RJ backs it up with his quotes. Pretty cut and dry...

Edited by Suttree
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In the context of what is said before and after, this really does sound like a genuine shock and admission by Lanfear. Up until this point, she thinks she is dealing with Rand al'Thor, when she is confronted by LTT, her entire demeanor changes.

Shrug. Not sure why we would trust her, she is a lier and Rand is clear multiple times that she loved power more than him and RJ backs it up with his quotes. Pretty cut and dry...

 

 

Because it's a common device in the series that people can be shocked into truthfulness. As I said, up to this point in the series, Lanfear has treated Rand as a means to an end precisely because she thinks he is nothing more then a sheepherder who is a reborn Dragon. When she is confronted by LTT, her whole demeanor changes. Eyes wide, hands to her stomach. Those are indicators that she is truly off balance.

 

I am honestly surprised how much RJ cabashes the love that Meirin and LTT seem to have shared in the series. Love is complicated thing, and I have never seen their relationship as all of one or the other. Like I said though, not expecting a turn, but it should be very interesting if Cyndane has a talk with a fully integrated Dragon.

 

 

The whole moggy thing is pretty much the low point of the wonder girls lives IMO.  They took one of the most vile humans to ever walk creation and captured her... did they try to make her face justice... no they ignored the countless crimes against humanity this woman committed and instead used her as a teacher and a "poor maid".  Again i'm going to reference Hitler here.  in 1945 you capture hitler... do you submit him to justice, or do you ask him to teach you to draw pictures?  There is something wrong with your moral compass if you do otherwise, and thats a lot of the reason i dislike the wondergirls (and Rand) they can NEVER claim a moral high ground after something like this.  I often laugh at Rand for trying to use morality because he freakin hid a forsaken and help him from justice... its almost inconceivable to me that someone could do that.

 

Operation Paperclip

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I am honestly surprised how much RJ cabashes the love that Meirin and LTT seem to have shared in the series.

It's not just Rand/LTT and RJ stating she loved power not him however, the BWB says the exact same thing...

 

BWB

 

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time, and that Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself.

An overwhelming amount of textual evidence, author quotes and supplemental materials touching on her true intentions and flawed character. One scene in which she is trying to trick someone who is just coming into an understanding of his past life is not nearly enough to balance the rest out.

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I am honestly surprised how much RJ cabashes the love that Meirin and LTT seem to have shared in the series.

It's not just Rand/LTT and RJ stating she loved power not him however, the BWB says the exact same thing...

 

BWB

 

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time, and that Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself.

An overwhelming amount of textual evidence, author quotes and supplemental materials touching on her true intentions and flawed character. One scene in which she is trying to trick someone who is just coming into an understanding of his past life is not nearly enough to balance the rest out.

 

 

Well, the BWB is a written history, I would hardly consider it tantamount to describing the complexities of a relationship.

 

If we are debating here that Meirin did not love LTT at all, I think that is certainly false. The quote I gave alone shows a hurt woman saying what she meant. The quote and context clearly shows Lanfear is not simply trying to deceive Rand. The cues in the scene go from Lanfear in complete control, to Lanfear being shocked into professing her love to LTT, then visibly trying to reassert her control.

 

Does that mean Lanfear loved LTT with all her heart and it was pure and puppy kisses and all that? No, but love is rarely like that anyway. It was a mixture of loving the man and the power, which is quite common really. Would Faile be with Perrin if he were a blacksmith? Does that mean she doesn't love him? It's not to the same degree of Lanfear's ambition, but it's like things on the same scale.

 

Even LTT's reaction comes off as telling. Why does he not say he never loved her if he never loved her? And the rest is unclear at best. He says all she ever cared about is power. Does he mean that literally, or is it a point of argument between two old lovers. Who hasn't said something to an ex that was more about hurting them then being strictly, literally true?

 

So yes, that is on the subject of whether or not Meirin loved LTT. If we are going to talk at each other back and forth anymore then that we should probably define exactly what it is we are saying, since I am not really arguing at all that I think Lanfear will turn.

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Does that mean Lanfear loved LTT with all her heart and it was pure and puppy kisses and all that? No, but love is rarely like that anyway. It was a mixture of loving the man and the power, which is quite common really.

As I've said above a few times she loved power  more than she loved the man. This is stated in text, by the author and in the BWB(so yes while there are a small number of mistakes...errr it was written by a historian :wink: , it's good as gold when you have supporting evidence as we do here). All of these quotes also support all we know about her personality flaws that held her back from getting a third name in the AoL. Word of God flat out says the idea is laughable that she would do good for Rand' sake and that her desire was for power more than him. That is not an "honest" love as Silver claimed at the start of this thread and let's do away with this "storybook" nonsense that a few people have thrown out. There is a huge difference between real life genuine love and someone using another for their position and power. You have to admit the overwhelming majority of evidence is on my side.

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Let's not also forget the fact that Lanfear went to the dark side once LTT spurned her for the golden haired chit Illiyena, what will her reaction be when he now chooses THREE lovely ladies instead of her? Lanfear is far more likely to try killing his entourage or even Rand as they try to get to SG which would upset Moridin's plans, thus explaining the reason for the mind trap. People supporting one of the best evil female characters turning to the Light must imagine that conversation would go like this:

 

Lanfear: I love you, LTT. I would forsake my oaths to the DO and risk my soul for you.

 

Rand: um, well, I kind of have this other thing going on with a Wise One, a Queen, and a hot knifey chick who can see the future. Sorry.

 

Lanfear: oh, okay. It's cool. Go Light.

 

Come on, Lanfear is on a short leash because Moridin fears she might kill Rand before his 13 books worth of plans come to fruition. She's been playing her own game since TGH and it revolves around her advancing her own cause or her own delusion rather than what's best for her boss.

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That makes me wonder if a Forsaken dropped a hint to Lanfear knowing she'd go ballistic. Knowing Moridin went to great lengths to "rescue" her solidifies the idea in my mind that he is using her to bait Rand. Rand would hope that she redeem herself and might make an effort to help her save herself, he has a severe weakness for women, a trait he shared with LTT. I imagine Moridin will use her as a distraction, but with Dark Rand gone, his only play is to kill Rand and hope to over come the Light with armies and force so I don't know how effective Lanfear will actually be.

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Anybody else feel like theyre getting much less passionate about theories with less than a month to reveal? Lol, just doesn't seem worth the fire and passion anymore. Anyway, I think the Lanfear dream is a pretty obvious trap via Rand's Moridin connection (its actually the identical trap LV laid on Harry Potter in Order of the Phoenix i believe). If Lanfear tries to change sides again it will be out of self preservation. Remember what Verin said about how the Dark One chose his favorites- it wasnt based on power or skill, but selfishness. And if you had to put one adjective on Lanfear, its selfish.

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