Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Nightstrike]

Oh, so you think only duelling merits count, then? That's great, because I do think so as well. So, Egwene - WHEN has she had a faceoff with a Forsaken in the OP and gotten away with it?

 

(If anything else goes, then "insisting" upon being taught by one individual, instead of the other ones who've already been taught the weave, would indicate something. Also, it wasn't specified what they wanted to be taught.)

[Suttree]

Oh, so you think only duelling merits count, then? That's great, because I do think so as well. So, Egwene - WHEN has she had a faceoff with a Forsaken in the OP and gotten away with it? (If anything else goes, then "insisting" upon being taught by one individual instead of the other ones who've already been taught the weave,

I honestly don't even know what you are talking about at this point. From almost the start of this thread it has been established that Nyn is miraculous with healing and dismal with all else. Proof has been provided of her getting spanked in a duel do to lack of dexterity, proof has been provided of her lack of touch in regular channeling with something as simple as linking, proof has also been provided with an RJ quote saying out of the three Nyn would struggle with regualr channeling skills in testing because she is "too specialized"(which exactly back up the "dismal" Cads quote).  Further proof of Egwen's dexterity has been shown and it is well established that she is the one who has the drive, skill and works hardest in learning everything possible and then shows inventive changes with those diverse weaves while Nyn disdains all else aside from healing. It really is cut and dry.

[Nightstrike]

No, there is no such "proof". When has Egwene spanked anyone as strong as Talaan? You claim only duelling skills matter, so the proof of Egwene being that skilled with duelling is ... nonexisting. Talaan and Egwene are SO far from each other.

[Suttree]

 You claim only duelling skills matter, so the proof of Egwene being that skilled with duelling is ... nonexisting. Talaan and Egwene are SO far from each other.

Again, I have no idea what you are on about. Not once have I said "only dueling" skills count. In fact I've said skills, knowledge and dexterity are what might offset Nyn's power advantage for Egwene. The other knock on Nyn is she shows no interest in anything besides healing and is shown to have zero touch or dexterity outside that arena. This has been proven throughout this thread with concrete quotes from both author and text. I'm afraid if you want to continue disputing it you will have to do far more than build straw men and ignore quotes people have provided showing Egwen's skills. If you feel like continuing this discussion I'm afraid I have to ask you to support your views with evidence. There has been far too much conjecture already.

[Nightstrike]

I have solid examples of when Nynaeve have had great duelling success, but Egwene has nothing like that. Also, you claim it was only Healing they wanted taught, but it's never specified what they wanted her to teach. Egwene has never had a face off with Moggy, and she thought Nynaeve stood a chance against Rand even though both Eggy and Elaine failed. Facing a man (who can divide his flows A LOT, and whose flows they can't see) will take skill and strength.

 

Nynaeve would beat Egwene. Talaan would beat Egwene. Moggy would beat Egwene. I have no idea who Egwene would beat, but I'd like you to quote it.

[Suttree]

I have solid examples of when Nynaeve have had great duelling success, but Egwene has nothing like that.

That I don't recall. It seems Luckers was right when he warned us that you would never concede point despite all evidence to the contrary. What duels did Nyn have success in? I assume you mean the one with Mogi which has already being thoroughly debunked as strength on strength with no skills and extra weaves involved, much like arm wrestling and it was totally due to Mogi looking past Nyn. Where there other examples of duals you provided since you claim plural? Again at this point you are just repeating opinion, you have given us nothing of relevance from in text to work with and utterly ignored reams of evidence showing your side wrong from both the author and text. Going to have to step away unless you can come up with something knew. Have a good one Night.

 

Edit: As an aside, yes it was for healing. Just like every other time Nyn was hounded in text by AS lining up to learn.  It is ludicrous to put forth that AS all of a sudden want to learn non-existent skills in other areas of channeling from her. Especially since RJ said she is "too specialized" with knowledge only of healing and Cads claimed she is "dismal" outside that area. It most certainly is specified...

 

 

 

ToM Ch. 20

Rosil pursed her lips, but said nothing further. The woman had shown Nynaeve remarkable kindness during her short time in the White Tower—which had been a relief. Nynaeve had grown to expect that every Yellow sister would regard her with disdain, or at least indifference. Oh, they thought she was talented, and many insisted on being trained by her.

 

[Nightstrike]

What duels did Nyn have success in? I assume you mean the one with Mogi which has already being thoroughly debunked as strength on strength with no skills and extra weaves involved, much like arm wrestling and it was totally due to Mogi looking past Nyn.

What? Debunked as? You're just making a lot of assumptions and proclaim it's a fact.You're assuming that Talaan's strength meant nothing, and that Moggy's skill meant nothing. You're assuming Egwene is fast in making weaves in a duel, that her skills in duelling is great, that the difference in strength will mean nothing. You're assuming that Eggy judged Nyneave's superior chances against Rand wrongly. You're assuming dexterity actually matters if one is a whole lot stronger. You're assuming Egwene would get several chance, like Talaan got.

 

Egwene has never shown any great success with OP duels, unlike Nynaeve, who met one of the Forsaken stroke for stroke. Egwene has defeated - who? Who has she defeated in a fair fight? Face to face with an opponent her own strength, thereabout, or maybe even stronger? Nynaeve is a whole lot stronger.

[Nightstrike]

Edit: As an aside, yes it was for healing. Just like every other time Nyn was hounded in text by AS lining up to learn.  It is ludicrous to put forth that AS all of a sudden want to learn non-existent skills in other areas of channeling from her. Especially since RJ said she is "too specialized" with knowledge only of healing and Cads claimed she is "dismal" outside that area. It most certainly is specified...

 

 

 

 

ToM Ch. 20

Rosil pursed her lips, but said nothing further. The woman had shown Nynaeve remarkable kindness during her short time in the White Tower—which had been a relief. Nynaeve had grown to expect that every Yellow sister would regard her with disdain, or at least indifference. Oh, they thought she was talented, and many insisted on being trained by her.

 

Nothing says it was only healing weaves. Her own healing had already been taught to some, so if Nynaeve was so poor at it, then they could learn from others.

[Suttree]

Ok one thing to make clear, for someone who tried to build a straw man in saying I claimed only duels matter you seem to be very focused on them. For the last time, no one is saying that and you are thinking about this in the wrong way. Nyn has strength and great skill at healing. She is "too specialized" and "dismal" in other areas. She has zero touch in other areas. All of these quotes have been provided. On the flip Egwene has great dexterity, skill and knowledge. All those quotes have been provided. Egwene has a huge desire to learn, be the best and innovate in all areas. Nyn is only interested in healing and knows little to nothing about the other areas. Also Egwene is stronger on the elements that are important to fighting.  Seriously stop talking about duels when the only one that is relevant to the discussion is the one in which Nyn got spanked.

 

You're assuming that Talaan's strength meant nothing, and that Moggy's skill meant nothing.

No, actually we gave you quotes showing dexterity won it and Moggy was fighting from strength only. Quotes that you are ignoring(not even trying to explain away, just flat out ignoring mind) along with everything else.

Edit: As an aside, yes it was for healing. Just like every other time Nyn was hounded in text by AS lining up to learn.  It is ludicrous to put forth that AS all of a sudden want to learn non-existent skills in other areas of channeling from her. Especially since RJ said she is "too specialized" with knowledge only of healing and Cads claimed she is "dismal" outside that area. It most certainly is specified...
 

 
 
ToM Ch. 20
Rosil pursed her lips, but said nothing further. The woman had shown Nynaeve remarkable kindness during her short time in the White Tower—which had been a relief. Nynaeve had grown to expect that every Yellow sister would regard her with disdain, or at least indifference. Oh, they thought she was talented, and many insisted on being trained by her.
 

Nothing says it was only healing weaves. Her own healing had already been taught to some, so if Nynaeve was so poor at it, then they could learn from others.

 

Lol! It specifically says "every Yellow sister". You are trying to put forth that WT Yellow's(who hadn't had access to Nyn yet) are all of a sudden lining up to be taught in areas of channeling BESIDES healing?!?! Have a good evening Nightstrike.

[Nightstrike]

It's her new way of healing you're talking about. That's 1 weave, out of a whole lot of things she can do. That quote was when she was going to the testing, and she thought about becoming fully recognized by everybody. If her skills with anything but that 1 weave was terrible, then they didn't need to take much of her time. Has Egwene specifically taught anyone how to duel channelers of Moghedien's or Nynaeve's strengths? ...

[Nightstrike]

If they both went for Balefire, then who would be quicker? I don't know, but I know Nynaeve must be quick. I have no idea if Egwene is quick, since we've got nothing to go on there. Rand was either quicker or so much stronger that he effortlessly cut her out regardless of her being quick, in which case strength must matter a whole lot (except with Balefire, right?).

 

Shielding someone of the opposite sex is supposed to be very difficult. Takes maybe 3 or 4 instead of 1 or 2? I still doubt Nynaeve could have shielded Rand. She probably couldn't have held Logain. Egwene definitely couldn't have held Logain. Rand could both shield and hold 2 of Egwene whilst dividing his flows a lot (doing difficult things). Egwene thought Nynave might have had a chance, and whilst I doubt it was true, it still speaks volumes.

[Cybertrolloc]

Should have read my post from a few days ago Suttree. Stop digging ;)

[Nightstrike]

Again, with the assumptions. Why would it abount to anything but brute strength with Nynaeve versus Egwene. Nynaeve would do with Egwene what Rand did to Eggy + Elayne .

 

Whoops, was there a post deleted, or did I read something from another page by mistake?

[fionwe1987]

Incidentally, for all those claiming Egwene can never face a Foresaken based on some of her quotes from the early books... can you explain why you're ignoring Egwene's quotes in the latest book where she says she can face Mesaana head on, and in fact sets up traps in the real world to do exactly that? Either the Foresaken became less skilled, or Egwene's own estimation of her abilities has been refined by experience, allowing her to change her mind about Nynaeve being the only one capable of facing them. 

 

And for those insisting strength differences can overwhelm the weaker channeler... I would advise you to go read the duel between Merean and Moiraine in New Spring. There, the skill and dexterity levels were more or less the same, and Merean had a significant strength advantage over Moiraine, and the battle still raged on for quite some time dead even. 

[Suttree]

It boils down to this: What Egwene considers "very complex", Nyaneve does not think it is. That says it all.

If it boils down to that, you've lost the debate already. Fionwe posted the quote with Nyn calling it complex herself contrary to what you have falsely repeated ad nauseum in this thread. Add to that the RJ quote(about Nyn being too specialized) you first tried to give a false time frame for and then claimed RJ was wrong because it directly contradicted the point you were trying to make. Quite the roll.

 

[elric]

it has been established that Nyn is miraculous with healing and dismal with all else.

 

no it HADNT been .

Nyn is good with atleast spirit as well Delving / compulsion undoing

Nyn passed the most grueling tersting in the last 100-200 years (the min- max age i giving Saerin), showing she didnt just memorise the 100 weave but that she CONTROL them and ablke to modify them in way that no one seen before.

 

 

Proof has been provided of her getting spanked in a duel do to lack of dexterity,

 

against an opponent of EQUAL steangth and unknown dexterity.

how dexterious is Taleen ?

u cant say X loose to B couse she less dexterious so that mean X is less dexterious then C without knowing the how C is in regard to B.

also the Taleen fight dont support the ASSUMPTION that Dex is ALL , streangth is nothing, becose Taleen is AS STRONG AS Nyn, and Yes Taleen would beat Eggy with ease.

and unlike you i DONT disregard it like wrestling -> u KNOW how to wrestle quote just becouse it dont support my Theory.

 

 

proof has been provided of her lack of touch in regular channeling with something as simple as linking,

 

again no it hadnt

all it show is that Nyn have problem in surrendering and passing the control.

just like the wind finder who did the weather ritual.

it the exact problem that couse Nyn block -> her difficulty to surrender

it like saying:

this is a bad soldeirs couse he cant accept authority becouse of that he a lausy sniper while IGNORING the shhoting range results

 

 

proof has also been provided with an RJ quote saying out of the three Nyn would struggle with regualr channeling skills in testing because she is "too specialized"

 

again wrong !

the quote say Nyn will have problem PASSING the test, without any indication to her struggeling i regular channeling

and Nyn DID had problem passing the test due to her lack of calm and the test beeing rigged against her and literally designed to fail /kill her

 

 

Further proof of Egwen's dexterity has been shown and it is well established that she is the one who has the drive, skill and works hardest in learning everything possible and then shows inventive changes with those diverse weaves while Nyn disdains all else aside from healing.

 

how much channeling Eggy did since beeing Amerilin ??? (i asked it atleast 3 time allready yet you still ignore that point)

beside discovering Traveling and cuandilar(sp?) making please show any inventive use of weave by Eggy ???

 

and when ever did Eggy was in a OP duel !!! ???

i honestly dont rem 1 time she was in actual OP duel, unless you count the fight in Tar which has MUCH more to do with dreaming then in OP, and yes in Tar Eggy win against anyone exept Perrin.

 

Fianwe

please remind me.

did Eggy tought she can solo Mess in OP duel or in a TAR fight ?

[Durinax]

 

and btw about Taleene and Nyn fight -> Taleene use wrestling skill in this fight and it clearly said that she know how to wrestle while as far as i know Nyn never learn any type of martial art (if anyone have PDF version of WH feel free to post the "it like wrestling kid , and u know how to wrestle" quote), so it was less about OP skjill and dextirity and more about general fighting skill (between 2 channeler of roughly SAME streangth).

Not sure how you would reach this conclusion? Being able to wrestle in real life would help Talaan in that fight about as much as being able to juggle would help Egwene do what she did when she split the flows in that impressive display quoted earlier.

 

actually suttree being able to wrestle would be important in a duel, even if it is metaphysical as it effects your mindset, and your knowledge of how the body works, allowing for different manipulations (and as Talaan showed deceiving).

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares

 

i agrea it CAN be viewd as if referring to Nyn other chaneling area.

but it ALSO CAN refer simply to her ability to be AS and to her lacking in any other AS aspect -> decorume, general knowledge ....  :)

No. It can either refer to her channeling skills outside Healing being dismal, or it can refer to her skills in general outside of Healing, which would include her channeling, being dismal. There is not a valid reading of the quote which has it refer to her Healing skill being good and her other non-channeling skills being dismal, and her other channeling skills not being covered at all.

 

 

 

and keeping in mind that it a personal opinion of 1 char who been known to make mistakes here and there

Which allows for the possibility it might be wrong, without giving any actual indication that it is. In other words, it is not evidence to support your position. It would allow you to explain away an apparent discrepancy if you could demonstrate that Nynaeve's skill set was not dismal, but it gives no indication that her skills are not dismal.

 

 

her ablity as channeler and healing IS channeling

A form of channeling. There is a hell of a lot more. If she has mastered 1% of what it is possible to do, but has a very poor knowledge of everything else, then she has a poor knowledge of 99% of what is possible with the OP. If the question is who could win in a fight, then Healing isn't much help - can you show how Nynaeve has great skill in a relevant area?

 

her great skill in delving which atleast to me indicate skill and percision and not simply brute streangth.

To me, it indicates she has a Talent for Delving in addition to a Talent for Healing.

 

The evidence presented so far in the thread leans heavily towards the conclusion that Egwene has a far broader skill set, and has a greater desire to expand her skill set. Nynaeve is more skilled only in the field of Healing. Nynaeve has a strength advantage, but this is not necessarily enough to be decisive, and, in fact, it probably isn't. Really, I see no reason to give Nynaeve a significant advantage in a combat between the two.

[avernite]

 

 

It should be noted that the RJ quote mentions PASSING the test. Not surviving it.

 

The books themselves show WHY Nynaeve nearly did not pass: because she trained her channelling, but didn't train 'being calm' which is also a part of Aes Sedai training, and one Egwene and Elayne are pretty good at (and which, in some situations, IS important). It's darn obvious that Nynaeve had not nearly as much trouble with the channeling part.

 

 

Nice try. However, RJ mentioned their current capabilities, and Nynaeve's specialized knowledge, neither of which have anything to do with keeping a straight face. 

 

 

 

Come now... the books show why Nynaeve did nearly fail. It was NOTHING to do with channeling, and EVERYTHING with composure. Which is a skill Aes Sedai highly value and train their students in. Hell, Rand specifically warns Nynaeve against becoming a typical calm Aes Sedai, showing that Rand, too, notices it's part of being Aes Sedai. The quotes from ToM, a choice:

 

"It is unimportant,"Barasine the Red said in a cold voice. "She failed the test." and a bit later "You failed, child,"Barasine said, regarding Nynaeve with an emotionless stare. "You did not show proper decorum."

Straight from the Aes Sedai involved, Nynaevew HAD trouble in passing the test. And why? Because she did now show proper decorum. Not because her channeling sucked, or she cursed them all for being mean or... no, it was decorum that nearly made her fail. And lo, we see one part of AS training that Nynaeve did not learn, ie. a too focused set of only some common Aes Sedai skills which excluded decorum.

[Vardar]

I stopped reading in page 4. I wanna say y'all are basing your entire argument around the words of Cads, a person known for being a jerk and harsh. Her calling Nys weaves dismal could just be in comparison to her skill at weaving, or heck her idea of how good she should believes Ny should be. We know her non healing weaves are good enough to not arouse too much suspicion when her and Elayne give Moggys tricks as their own.

 

The Alivia Cy argument was settled, ironically enough by Luck and Sult in another thread when I was informed that reversed weaves was the only way Cy beat Alvia, when I said it made 0 sense how Alivia lost. Island by that btw. Angreal, immune to direct weaves, she had all the advantages. But whatever. Te same logic should apply. If Cy only won because of reversed weaves, then using that battle as a comparison isn't fair. Ny has the strength advantage, by far. And the battle experience. Eggy had the flow splitting but Ny can split too. I'd give it to Ny myself.

[Nightstrike]

By Egwene's own judgment, Nynaeve would beat both Egwene and Elayne working as a team, so there should be no doubt who would win.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Vardarmus: Fionwe has made some very good points on the matter a few pages back aside from the Cadsuane quote, you may want to have a look at that. Not saying I agree (although i don't disagree either) just that he makes some good points that you may want to look at and counter. 

[Nightstrike]

it has been established that Nyn is miraculous with healing and dismal with all else.

 

no it HADNT been .

Nyn is good with atleast spirit as well Delving / compulsion undoing

Nyn passed the most grueling tersting in the last 100-200 years (the min- max age i giving Saerin), showing she didnt just memorise the 100 weave but that she CONTROL them and ablke to modify them in way that no one seen before.

 

 

Proof has been provided of her getting spanked in a duel do to lack of dexterity,

 

against an opponent of EQUAL steangth and unknown dexterity.

how dexterious is Taleen ?

u cant say X loose to B couse she less dexterious so that mean X is less dexterious then C without knowing the how C is in regard to B.

also the Taleen fight dont support the ASSUMPTION that Dex is ALL , streangth is nothing, becose Taleen is AS STRONG AS Nyn, and Yes Taleen would beat Eggy with ease.

and unlike you i DONT disregard it like wrestling -> u KNOW how to wrestle quote just becouse it dont support my Theory.

 

 

proof has been provided of her lack of touch in regular channeling with something as simple as linking,

 

again no it hadnt

all it show is that Nyn have problem in surrendering and passing the control.

just like the wind finder who did the weather ritual.

it the exact problem that couse Nyn block -> her difficulty to surrender

it like saying:

this is a bad soldeirs couse he cant accept authority becouse of that he a lausy sniper while IGNORING the shhoting range results

 

 

proof has also been provided with an RJ quote saying out of the three Nyn would struggle with regualr channeling skills in testing because she is "too specialized"

 

again wrong !

the quote say Nyn will have problem PASSING the test, without any indication to her struggeling i regular channeling

and Nyn DID had problem passing the test due to her lack of calm and the test beeing rigged against her and literally designed to fail /kill her

 

 

Further proof of Egwen's dexterity has been shown and it is well established that she is the one who has the drive, skill and works hardest in learning everything possible and then shows inventive changes with those diverse weaves while Nyn disdains all else aside from healing.

 

how much channeling Eggy did since beeing Amerilin ??? (i asked it atleast 3 time allready yet you still ignore that point)

beside discovering Traveling and cuandilar(sp?) making please show any inventive use of weave by Eggy ???

 

and when ever did Eggy was in a OP duel !!! ???

i honestly dont rem 1 time she was in actual OP duel, unless you count the fight in Tar which has MUCH more to do with dreaming then in OP, and yes in Tar Eggy win against anyone exept Perrin.

 

Fianwe

please remind me.

did Eggy tought she can solo Mess in OP duel or in a TAR fight ?

Well said.

 

•Egwene meets with Siuan and Nynaeve to discuss Rand and other events. They set up a plan to trap Mesaana. (ToM,Ch33)

•Egwene receives no response from Gawyn. She and Siuan make final plans for the meeting tonight and prepare for sleep. (ToM,Ch35)

•Egwene and Leane meet in Tel'aran'rhiod with Sitters, Wise Ones and Windfinders to discuss unification of all channelers with the White Tower. The meeting is interrupted when the Black Ajah attacks. (ToM,Ch36)

•Egwene leads the fight against the Black Ajah and manages to kill several. Perrin arrives in his battle with Slayer. She is astounded at how strong he is in the world of dreams. She realizes skill in the world of dreams can be much more powerful than channeling. (ToM,Ch37)

•Egwene succumbs to a trick and Mesaana collars her with an a'dam. Overcoming her fear and using her strength, she denies the collar and engages in a contest of wills with Mesaana. Mesaana�s mind snaps. Upon waking, Egwene finds Gawyn near death. She Heals him and bonds him as her Warder. (ToM,Ch38)

•Some time later, Egwene and Gawyn discuss the assassin. Something must be done about the Seanchan. (ToM,Ch42)

•Egwene visits Elayne in her dream to inform her that Mesaana was defeated. (ToM,Ch45)

 

Trap discussed in ToM, 33. Not about duelling.

 

In fact (ToM, 38):

She didn't face the woman directly.

Egwene hid from Mesaana.

 

And when she sneaked up upon Mesaana, her way of defending herself against the weaves "Mesaana" had prepared was:

Those will not hit me, Egwene thought, confident.

It was all about tar.

[Elan Tedronai]

This is still going.   I am done, on a final note:

 

As for memorizing weaves, come now, Nyaneve has done several things that were thought impossible.  Egwene? 

 

Egwene stated the weaves were very complex.  Nynaeve: "finished the complicated thing in mere moments" and nothing about complicated is mentioned again. 

 

I never get the impression that Egwene is that skillful except in TAR. 

 

 

Dude egwene has other talents besides TAR. Who do you think got back travelling and making cuendillar for the aes sedai?

don't let your egwene hate blind you.

[Kamin_Majere]

Not to derail the subject but Egwene did something much cooler than bringing back travelling i think.

To travel she needed Moggys help a bit, but how she used TAR to get around that was pretty brilliant.  No waiting for hours to get familiar with a place, just step into TAR think of yourself somewhere and you are there probably faster than even Skimming can take you.

 

I know the wise ones caused it to be thought of as evil in Egwene, but man if that wouldn't be very useful in situations where you don't have time to waste getting to know a place.  She really did show remarkable skill when weaving that.

 

I've never like how Cuendillar was rediscovered... it was to shockingly sudden and was never even mentioned that i could find until we see her having a bunch of AS and novices making it.  Still impressive that she discovered how to do it, but unlike Elayne with 'angreal its like she never tried it ever and then all the sudden Egwene was making Cuendillar like it was nothing.  I guess it always sat wrong with me

 

Oh well back to the thread (i have nothing further to add because people are taking this a bit further than where i thought it would go)