Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, enough about what posters have or have not done. If you wish to continue the discussion, do so via PM. This thread is not the place, let's get back on topic please. 

[Entreri]

 

 

If I recall, you have called others Rand fanboys and possibly myself.  I certainly do not pivot and call it a personal attack.  It is nothing.  You can say whatever you want about me, I encourage free discussion and no censorship. 

You recall wrong. I know those old AS discussions with you and XXX spitting out vitriol used to get heated but I never have called people out on that. Again are you seriously trying to claim what I quoted above isn't a dig? Further what are you on about, what does this possibly have to do with censorship?

 

You have recall decay as well. 

 

Back on topic, as I stated, "very complex" to Egwene is nothing to Nyaneve.

[fionwe1987]

It boils down to this: What Egwene considers "very complex", Nyaneve does not think it is.  That says it all.

 

 

It says nothing, since from independent assessment from other sources, those weaves are indeed complex, and needlessly so, exactly as Egwene said. Her point there is not to say she can't do it, as in the very next sentence she says she just hasn't memorized them. Think for a minute about who is saying this. This is Egwene, who wants to learn and know everything and be the best at everything. The only reason she hasn't memorized them is that she doesn't need to take the test, and as we've heard before from others, the 100 weaves themselves are entirely useless in anything but the test. 

[Entreri]

 

The most important part of that RJ quote is "current abilities".  Back then, Nyaneve had difficulty getting saidar.

 

In ToM, what we see is Egwene calling the 100 weaves for the test "very complex", italicized in the books for emphasis.  Nyaneve POV shows that she thought nothing of it.

This strongely implies their relative skill at the OP. 

 

Just before this scene, we see than Elayne was amazed at the complexity of Egwene's weave, Nyaneve was not impressed in the least.   Clearly Nyaneve skills with the OP are far greater than Elayne's. 

 

Yes, Nyaneve would wreck Egwene. 

 

In KoD, Nynaeve had difficulty accessing saidar? What a bunch of crap.

 

In the books, "very" is italicized. "Complex" is not. And the immediate next sentence is: I haven't had time to memorize all of them; I swear that many are needlessly ornate simply to be difficult.

 

Egwne just hasn't memorized them, and she correctly points out that their complexity is needless. In battle, it isn't needlessly complex weaves that help. Its the right weave placed correctly to achieve the desired result. The 100 weaves in the Aes Sedai test are utterly useless in a normal combat situation. They exist as a complex goal the Accepted has to achieve while dealing with other challenges.

 

 

So I think really the better question would be "What type of combat are they suited for". In which case, again, Egwene = destroyer. Nynaeve = duellist. 

I don't know about that. I frankly think the other way round works better. Nynaeve's raw strength is much more useful against non-channeling opposition. She can simply throw enormous weaves after them. Now, obviously, Egwene's greater strength in Earth and Fire make her good at destruction, but I think her dexterity and finesse and her skill with inventing weaves is much better suited to duels, where those things can really make a difference. Either way, both these women will be good at both, and as they gain knowledge and experience, they will only improve their chances.

 

 

It should be noted that the RJ quote mentions PASSING the test. Not surviving it.

 

The books themselves show WHY Nynaeve nearly did not pass: because she trained her channelling, but didn't train 'being calm' which is also a part of Aes Sedai training, and one Egwene and Elayne are pretty good at (and which, in some situations, IS important). It's darn obvious that Nynaeve had not nearly as much trouble with the channeling part.

Nice try. However, RJ mentioned their current capabilities, and Nynaeve's specialized knowledge, neither of which have anything to do with keeping a straight face. 

 

 

Then clearly this quote cannot refer to Nyaneves skills in the Power, which are above Egwene.   

 

Nice bit of circular logic there. The quote doesn't support my position, so obviously it is wrong, and doesn't weaken my argument.

 

That quote is pretty conclusive. As of KoD, Nynaeve is too specialized a channeler. In tGS, she learned the AS weaves, and she further improved her abilities in her specialized field. She did not suddenly become like Egwene, eager to learn every weave under the sun and be perfect in using them. She did not start trying to innovate with weaves not involved in Healing. In the same time, we saw Egwene show further evidence of skill with weaving, with innovating, etc.  

 

 

Definitely Egwene is capable of learning the 100 weaves, no question about it.  But Egwene still considers them to be very complex, Nyaneve does not.   This shows their relative capabilities.

[Suttree]

 

Definitely Egwene is capable of learning the 100 weaves, no question about it.  But Egwene still considers them to be very complex, Nyaneve does not.   This shows their relative capabilities.

Seriously mate just stop. It says nothing of the sort and your own quotes prove it. She tried to warn Nyn and then says casually that she hasn't had time to "memorize" them which is all Nyn did. There is no skill level gained and no practical use. Your entire point here is moot for the purpose of the discussion, not to mention it goes against what both RJ and the text tell us. At this point you sound exactly like that guy Asmo told us about trying to hold on to this testing nonsense as your only point.

 

TFoH

 

"I once saw a man hanging from a cliff," he said slowly. "The brink was crumbling beneath his fingers, and the only thing near enough to grasp was a tuft of grass, a few long blades with roots barely clinging to the rock. The only chance he had of climbing back up on the cliff. So he grabbed it." His abrupt chuckle held no mirth. "He had to know it would pull free."

 

[Entreri]

 

 

Definitely Egwene is capable of learning the 100 weaves, no question about it.  But Egwene still considers them to be very complex, Nyaneve does not.   This shows their relative capabilities.

Seriously mate just stop. It says nothing of the sort and your own quotes prove it. She tried to warn Nyn and then says casually that she hasn't had time to "memorize" them which is all Nyn did. There is no skill level gained and no practical use. Your entire point here is moot for the purpose of the discussion, not to mention it goes against what both RJ and the text tell us. At this point you sound exactly like that guy Asmo told us about.

 

TFoH

 

"I once saw a man hanging from a cliff," he said slowly. "The brink was crumbling beneath his fingers, and the only thing near enough to grasp was a tuft of grass, a few long blades with roots barely clinging to the rock. The only chance he had of climbing back up on the cliff. So he grabbed it." His abrupt chuckle held no mirth. "He had to know it would pull free."

 

 

We will have to disagree mate.

 

This definitely shows what Egwene considers to be very complex, Nynaeve thinks it is nothing.  

 

Why does Nynaeve think this?  Probably because she has routinely done as complex or even more complex weaving or is capable of it. 

 

Skills, Nyaneve > Egwene >> Elayne >= Avienhda

[fionwe1987]

 

Definitely Egwene is capable of learning the 100 weaves, no question about it.  But Egwene still considers them to be very complex, Nyaneve does not.   This shows their relative capabilities.

 

Of course she considers them complicated:

 

Jaw set against her fear, she crafted the rest of the required weave. She split her weaves a half-dozen times and finished the complicated thing in mere moments.

 

Straight from the horses mouth, and about the second of the hundred weaves no less. And if you read New Spring, you'll see that it is indeed very intricate, involving all five of the Powers, and Moiraine had a fairly long conversation while performing it only half way through in NS. 

 

Now, before you say that Nynaeve handled it easily because she split her flows and managed it in minutes... that is exactly my point. Nynaeve had practiced the weave, so she was able to complete it very quickly by coming at it from half a dozen directions. And practice at the weave is all Egwene lacks. Not skill to do them exactly as fast or faster than Nynaeve.

[Suttree]

 

Of course she considers them complicated:

 

Jaw set against her fear, she crafted the rest of the required weave. She split her weaves a half-dozen times and finished the complicated thing in mere moments.

 

Would also like to point out that here we see Nyn splitting weaves 6 times. Do we know for certain how many she can do total from anywhere else in the text? In addition no one has yet to point out how "memorizing" these weaves for the test is in anyway applicable to the topic at hand or shows that Nyn is more skilled/dexterous. That might be a good place for the other side to start.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

Of course she considers them complicated:

 

Jaw set against her fear, she crafted the rest of the required weave. She split her weaves a half-dozen times and finished the complicated thing in mere moments.

 

Would also like to point out that here we see Nyn splitting weaves 6 times. Do we know fro certain how many she can do total from anywhere else in the text?

 

 

I can't point to a direct quote, but I believe the best indication would be when Egwene/Elayne or one of the Aes Sedai are watching her healing. I recall someone commenting on the amount and complexity of the weaves that were produced and that they couldn't keep up with it. (I am sure it was Elayne). I would be looking around LoC with the healing of Logain and Suian (or the study sessions with them) as a good start. 

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Why does Nynaeve think this?  Probably because she has routinely done as complex or even more complex weaving or is capable of it. 

 

No, she thinks this because she has routinely done this set of weaves and practiced it. She has abysmal knowledge of other non-Healing weaves, and to give an example of how bad she is with things Aes Sedai consider basic:

 

 

It was not exactly the same as using an angreal, though very close. It was not meant to be done hurriedly, either; Nynaeve did not have a soft touch, at best. Elayne felt as though she were being shaken; nothing happened physically, but inside her head she seemed to be bouncing around, tumbling wildly downhill. Worse, she was jostled toward embracing saidar with excruciating slowness. It took less than a heartbeat, and seemed to take hours, days. She wanted to howl, but she could not breathe. Abruptly, like a dam bursting, the One Power flowed through her, a rush of life and joy, of bliss, and breath left her in a long gasp of pleasure and relief so overwhelming that her legs wobbled. It was all she could do to keep from panting. Tottering, pulling herself up, she gave Nynaeve a stern look, and Nynaeve shrugged apologetically. Twice in one day! The sun had to be turning green.

 

At something as basic as linking, Nynaeve is shoddy as hell in tPoD. She lacks finesse in these areas because she has never bothered to practice. She saw someone do some of these things once, and she knows she can copy it, so she stops bothering to try. Contrast this to Egwene:

 

 

What had taken Egwene only a few tries to master took the novices a heart-pounding five minutes to begin. 

 

Egwene tried a few times, and swiftly mastered linking. And that's the way it is with most other things, save Healing where Nynaeve's innate Talent is enormous.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Would also like to point out that here we see Nyn splitting weaves 6 times. Do we know for certain how many she can do total from anywhere else in the text? In addition no one has yet to point out how "memorizing" these weaves for the test is in anyway applicable to the topic at hand or shows that Nyn is more skilled/dexterous. That might be a good place for the other side to start.

 

 

We don't know what Nynaeve's upper limit is. In fact, we don't even know that Egwene's upper limit is 14. She certainly wasn't struggling with the effort of splitting her flows 14 ways. In fact, she was able to not just do that, but have each of the 14 weaves do different things and create a juggling act, while also ignoring pain from being swatted at with the Power. To be fair, we haven't seen a situation where Nynaeve says she can't split her flows any more either. What we have in the text certainly points to Egwene being able to do it more, but that can change with the next aMoL chapter.

 

But dexterity isn't all about splitting weaves. Its about what you can do with them, and how efficiently you direct them to do what is needed. A good example of dexterity:

 

 

The invaders screamed, the women in gray weaving shields. That proved to be the wrong choice, as both women's leashes unlocked, twisting lines of Air unclasping them with dexterous speed. 

 

Note that Egwene knows the pressure points used to open an a'dam, and she's able to precisely hit them with Air to open the leashes. That is what dexterity and skill give you, and its precisely this kind of advantage that helped Talaan defeat Nynaeve. 

 

ETA: While the description is different, it is worth noting that when Nynaeve does it, she calls it "cracking a whip at a dust mote", which also implies dexterity to me. The issue with Nynaeve seems to be that she doesn't really practice enough to achieve this with all her weaves, which is why she loses to utter newbies like Talaan.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, learning the weaves was never the problem. The problem was that Nynaeve didn't really know all that much apart from Healing, and the AS test requires you to do more than create those 100 weaves. You're put up against all sorts of tough situations, where you need to use other weaves to destroy enemies and defend yourself.

 

ToM, chapter 20. Nynaeve's test. It's mentioned that the AS thought highly of her ability and wanted to be taught by her. The test is more about keeping calm, and abandoning the situations you encounter, whilst also doing the taught weaves, than it's about duelling skills. The AS who held the test didn't know what trollocs looked like, so they were no fighters, some of them at least. Nynaeve's the fighter.

 

Well, If her ability with anything other than Healing is dismal, and forms of channeling that aren't Healing are things other than Healing, they are therefore included in the category of dismal.

 

Well, if this was that, then anything could happen.

[fionwe1987]

 

Yes, learning the weaves was never the problem. The problem was that Nynaeve didn't really know all that much apart from Healing, and the AS test requires you to do more than create those 100 weaves. You're put up against all sorts of tough situations, where you need to use other weaves to destroy enemies and defend yourself.

ToM, chapter 20. Nynaeve's test. It's mentioned that the AS thought highly of her ability and wanted to be taught by her. The test is more about keeping calm, and abandoning the situations you encounter, whilst also doing the taught weaves, than it's about duelling skills. The AS who held the test didn't know what trollocs looked like, so they were no fighters, some of them at least. Nynaeve's the fighter.

 

Well, If her ability with anything other than Healing is dismal, and forms of channeling that aren't Healing are things other than Healing, they are therefore included in the category of dismal.

Well, if this was that, then anything could happen.

 

Do you want to explain this nonsense? Nowhere in ToM did Aes Sedai want to be taught the OP by Nynaeve! It seems clear that this debate has run its course if people have to invent stuff up to support their notion that Nynaeve had more skill than Egwene.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Wow this topic has certainly touched some nerves. Just a few thoughts.

 

Measuring relative strengths is not exact, but at least the text gives good references that allows us to make some reasonable assumptions. I think many people have difficulty with the dexterity element because it is much harder to measure. Luckers and Suttree have done an excellent job explaining it, as well as, giving examples. I think they are understating the importance of strength a little, but the point about the importance of dexterity is well taken.

 

I have never been convinced Egwene was that dexterous. I would have put her at decently above average, but not greatly dexterous. That is just my interpretation from the text. If RJ had meant her to have great dexterity, I think he would have given more direct comparisons. Fact: Nyn is in fact dismal at channeling with the exception of Healing weaves. She approaches non-healing with brute force and a lack of finesse. That is a reflection of her personality. So clearly Egwene is more dexterous.

 

Why is this the case? Because Nyn has the typical Yellow stance that the other weaves are less important. She has also ignored her education and has rarely ever practiced. Maybe she does not see the need for practicing because she has perfect recall regarding weaves. From the descriptions of her healing weaves, I think she has the potential to be as dexterous as any channeler, if she applied herself to her training. Alas, that is not where her passion lies, and Nyn's passion is what makes her so special.

 

Personally I do not care which one would win in a duel, since we are not likely to see it happen. But if I had to make a guess, I would go with BBM's assessment.

[Elan Tedronai]

Talaan bitch slapping nynaeve shows strength is not the be all and end all. However strength is quite important. It depends upon the settings really. You have the ask yourself if egwene's dexterity especially in earth and fire is enough to overcome the sheer gap in strength between the two.

[BFG]

 

 

Of course she considers them complicated:

 

Jaw set against her fear, she crafted the rest of the required weave. She split her weaves a half-dozen times and finished the complicated thing in mere moments.

 

Would also like to point out that here we see Nyn splitting weaves 6 times. Do we know for certain how many she can do total from anywhere else in the text? In addition no one has yet to point out how "memorizing" these weaves for the test is in anyway applicable to the topic at hand or shows that Nyn is more skilled/dexterous. That might be a good place for the other side to start.

 

 

Go back several pages and I already have (or at least I'm 90% sure it was this debate) :) 

 

To reiterate - Nyn managed to use several of these weaves in innovative ways as weapons. 

 

It means that she has spent time studying and practicing (albeit half-heartedly) weaves that aren't healing, expanding her knowledge base.  (I know you're just going to say that she memorised them - but we're going to have to agree to differ here about the importance of this).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Additionally, imo Nyn is an instinctive channeler, her best work is done on instinct and without thought - the healing gentling, 'healing' madness, dust cloud (ToM).  The more experience she has with other weaves (which she now has more of) the better this will be, can back up the first bit with quotes, the second is my opinion.  Worth noting that she heals instinctively - she's never been taught. 

 

 

You may have pushed me to 60/40 - but similar to others they're never going to dual to the death (unless one turns) so realistically we're talking about shielding.  Egwene doesn't have the strength to shield Nyn while she's holding the power - but Nyn doesn't have the strength to shield Eg when she's holding the power.  Where Nyn has the advantage is that she has extra power to try other things, Of course it's possible that Nyn may need to use 12 flows to counter 6 of Eg's. 

 

 

I also think that dexterity is something different to splitting weaves (I don't think this has been defined yet).  Back to Taalaans fight, she splits her flows 6 ways, but the dextrous part is how she manipulated the weaves.  So Eg can split her weaves 14 ways, the dextrous part seems to be the juggling bit, using fire which is a strength of hers.  Nyn can weave a tapestry with all 5 powers which Elayne (or possibly Egwene) can't follow, the dexterity here (in the weaving) is based in large part by her healing ability. 

 

 

So their are several things (imo) that count in battles

 

• power
• skill/dexterity
• knowledge
• conviction
• number of weaves you can make

Nyn has the edge with power, Eg with dexterity, I'd say they're roughly equal on the rest

[BFG]

Talaan bitch slapping nynaeve shows strength is not the be all and end all. However strength is quite important. It depends upon the settings really. You have the ask yourself if egwene's dexterity especially in earth and fire is enough to overcome the sheer gap in strength between the two.

 

Ok, not sure if the quote will work or not. 

 

Very few people are saying that strength means everything, I'm certainly not, but based on evidence it's hard to shield somebody that's holding the power, Nyn and Eg, Rand and Lanfear.  The fact that Talaan and Nyn are very close in strength means that the dexterity that Talaan showed gave her the advantage. 

 

Their is a large power difference between Nyn and Eg.  Eg is going to have to be a lot more dextrous than Nyn to make up for it - and although I believe that she is more dextrous, I'm not convinced that she is that much more so.  I'm pretty sure that the difference between Eg and Nyn is 3 power levels, this is the same as between Morgase and the weakest AS (again I think).

[Entreri]

This is still going.   I am done, on a final note:

 

As for memorizing weaves, come now, Nyaneve has done several things that were thought impossible.  Egwene? 

 

Egwene stated the weaves were very complex.  Nynaeve: "finished the complicated thing in mere moments" and nothing about complicated is mentioned again. 

 

I never get the impression that Egwene is that skillful except in TAR. 

[Suttree]

This is still going.   I am done, on a final note:

 

As for memorizing weaves, come now, Nyaneve has done several things that were thought impossible.

All in regards to healing which no one has disputed. Not sure how that helps your point however as everyone has acknowledged that and it has zero bearing on the topic at hand.

 

@BFG

 

You actually have made me come around a bit. But we must keep in mind it is not just dexterity. As Fionwe's quotes clearly show Nyn is fairly bad at that(see linking quote and others).  Again with something as basic as linking Nyn shows zero touch which backs up her getting schooled by Talaan...

 

 

It was not meant to be done hurriedly, either; Nynaeve did not have a soft touch, at best. Elayne felt as though she were being shaken; nothing happened physically, but inside her head she seemed to be bouncing around, tumbling wildly downhill. Worse, she was jostled toward embracing saidar with excruciating slowness.

 

The question is would Egwene's dexterity, knowledge and skill be enough to overcome the strength difference. I think yes but I am a bit closer to your side than I was at the start. You have made some very solid points.

[elric]

a.

about Memorising spell not counting as skill:

 

Nyn not just memorise her weave she is able tto modify and innovate them in stressfull situatuion , to me it show that her memorising the weave also give her full controll and skill at those weave.

 

b.

Nyn Dwelling:

 

Nyn not only master healing but master dwelling which at least in my opinion require finnece and not just brute streangth

 

c.

Nyn linking.

 

the problem Nyn had wasnt in mastering the skill but in surrendering /passing the control, Nyn is a control freak and had trouble in surrendering to other in ANY situation power relared /social related......

 

d.

Egy more skilled and dexterious

 

AGAIN show me where it say Egy has more dexterity ?

yup Egy is dexterious no argue, but that dont refer to Nyn beeing less.

 

and about skilled -> after beeing Raised Egy hardly practice channeling (beeing buisy in learning history /dais daimer / politic /scheaming /Mogy questioning/ dreaming / doing Ameralin duties...) while Nyn never stopped practicing

[elric]

a.

about Memorising spell not counting as skill:

 

Nyn not just memorise her weave she is able tto modify and innovate them in stressfull situatuion , to me it show that her memorising the weave also give her full controll and skill at those weave.

 

b.

Nyn Dwelling:

 

Nyn not only master healing but master dwelling which at least in my opinion require finnece and not just brute streangth

 

c.

Nyn linking.

 

the problem Nyn had wasnt in mastering the skill but in surrendering /passing the control, Nyn is a control freak and had trouble in surrendering to other in ANY situation power relared /social related......

 

d.

Egy more skilled and dexterious

 

AGAIN show me where it say Egy has more dexterity ?

yup Egy is dexterious no argue, but that dont refer to Nyn beeing less.

 

and about skilled -> after beeing Raised Egy hardly practice channeling (beeing buisy in learning history /dais daimer / politic /scheaming /Mogy questioning/ dreaming / doing Ameralin duties...) while Nyn never stopped practicing

[Nightstrike]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, learning the weaves was never the problem. The problem was that Nynaeve didn't really know all that much apart from Healing, and the AS test requires you to do more than create those 100 weaves. You're put up against all sorts of tough situations, where you need to use other weaves to destroy enemies and defend yourself.

ToM, chapter 20. Nynaeve's test. It's mentioned that the AS thought highly of her ability and wanted to be taught by her. The test is more about keeping calm, and abandoning the situations you encounter, whilst also doing the taught weaves, than it's about duelling skills. The AS who held the test didn't know what trollocs looked like, so they were no fighters, some of them at least. Nynaeve's the fighter.

 

Do you want to explain this nonsense? Nowhere in ToM did Aes Sedai want to be taught the OP by Nynaeve! It seems clear that this debate has run its course if people have to invent stuff up to support their notion that Nynaeve had more skill than Egwene.

Dude, I just told you what chapter it was mentioned in. Someone else mentioned what Cadsuane thought of her. Only one that could be saved, or something like that. Noone else among them has her duelling merits so far.

 

[Suttree]

 

 

Dude, I just told you what chapter it was mentioned in. Someone else mentioned what Cadsuane thought of her. Only one that could be saved, or something like that. Noone else among them has her duelling merits so far.

I don't believe it says anything of the sort in the chapter. A quote would be far more useful.

[Nightstrike]

Oh, they thought she was talented, and many insisted on being trained by her. But they did not think of her as one of them. Not yet.

[Suttree]

 

Oh, they thought she was talented, and many insisted on being trained by her. But they did not think of her as one of them. Not yet.

 

Thanks for that. Yes, it is well known Yellow's were lining up to be trained in healing. That has been established early on, I thought you meant in regards to general channeling in a way that would be relevant to this discussion.