Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Durinax]

 

 

I never claimed that the Fades was a duel, that was more of a battle. Keep in mind that fades don't die right away, and that their dangerous even after their dead. Amico was flickering in and out meaning she wasn't aware, I was merely pointing out that it was an ambush not a duel.

 

 

You didn't claim that. What you did was ignore the context of my post completely, and waste everyones time. I showed Egwene's use of stilling as an example to counter BFGs example, which was Nynaeve making Balefire. You ignored all that.

 

As to the quote on Water and Air... yes you did quote it. Why you're still confused on this issue is beyond me. The entire quote is right there.

 

actually I didn't take it out of context, I put the 'duel' back into context if you would have left out that word then I wouldn't have looked up the context which it happened in. It is still an counter example but by saying it was a duel it implies there was an actual fight with both sides being involved.

 

As for the quote for some reason I though it was you putting in the second part about how she barely had to think, I mixed that up.

[Kamin_Majere]

I've always wondered about strength and weakness in certain powers.

 

As an example take Moir and Nyn. (pre lanfear encounter moir)

Say Moir is strong in Air and that Nyn is weak in air (just play along and assume it's true)  Would Nyn still be stronger in air than Moir because the vast power difference?  Or are these individual strengths and weaknesses enough to close the gap?

 

I really wish power levels and strengths/weaknesses had more hard data instead of pretty words... but thats probably the rulebook in me talking because honestly with generalizations like strong and weak it gives near infinite space to do what ever is wanted at the time.  Which is great for a story, but less great to my rulebook mind

[Durinax]

 

well for one I am assuming that they both are fighting, and that they know they are fighting, not one person sitting there waiting to get hit

Why in the hell would that rule out a trap or ambush? We see quite clearly in the Rahvin/Rand & Sammael/Rand fight those things happen all the time. Further I just realized you never specified no Tar in your first post of this thread. We obviously need to take that out of the equation or it is no contest...

 

ok so lets say Nyn sneaks up on egwene and channels at her, game over. See there is a very good reason to disregard ambushes particularily if one side is unaware of a fight happening.

[Durinax]

repeat

[Suttree]

She's got above average strength, and she's strong in the 5, and yet she can't Heal. What makes people believe so strongly that she must be a duelling Champ?

For the love of God stop with the logical fallacies Nightstrike. This beyond absurd at this point.

 

Also for the last time why are you so focused on dueling skills? The OP said combat  straight out and a fight in which Rand and Sammael are travelling and firing off attacks fits that bill exactly. Not one person has said only dueling skills count and Egwene would never commmit to an arm wrestle like Nyn/Mogi.

[Nightstrike]

 

She's got above average strength, and she's strong in the 5, and yet she can't Heal. What makes people believe so strongly that she must be a duelling Champ?

For the love of God stop with the logical fallacies Nightstrike. This beyond absurd at this point.

 

Also for the last time why are you so focused on dueling skills? The OP said combat  straight out and a fight in which Rand and Sammael are travelling and firing off attacks fits that bill exactly. Not one person has said only dueling skills count and Egwene would never commmit to an arm wrestle like Nyn/Mogi.

 

The logical fallacy is in believing Egwene is a duelling champ, with nothing to back it up. We've never even seen her train, and we do know she places Nynaeve's ability higher than her own.

 

Rand chased Sammael, and that was a hunt, not a duel. Never did he actuall stand and duel.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

I never claimed that the Fades was a duel, that was more of a battle. Keep in mind that fades don't die right away, and that their dangerous even after their dead. Amico was flickering in and out meaning she wasn't aware, I was merely pointing out that it was an ambush not a duel.

 

 

You didn't claim that. What you did was ignore the context of my post completely, and waste everyones time. I showed Egwene's use of stilling as an example to counter BFGs example, which was Nynaeve making Balefire. You ignored all that.

 

As to the quote on Water and Air... yes you did quote it. Why you're still confused on this issue is beyond me. The entire quote is right there.

 

actually I didn't take it out of context, I put the 'duel' back into context if you would have left out that word then I wouldn't have looked up the context which it happened in. It is still an counter example but by saying it was a duel it implies there was an actual fight with both sides being involved.

 

As for the quote for some reason I though it was you putting in the second part about how she barely had to think, I mixed that up.

 

Well, BFG called Nynaeve killing the Fades a duel. I called Egwene shielding Amico a duel. Either we both definied duel right, or both did it wrong. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that both have invented something while fighting, which was the only point being discussed.

[Durinax]

 

 

 

 

I never claimed that the Fades was a duel, that was more of a battle. Keep in mind that fades don't die right away, and that their dangerous even after their dead. Amico was flickering in and out meaning she wasn't aware, I was merely pointing out that it was an ambush not a duel.

 

 

You didn't claim that. What you did was ignore the context of my post completely, and waste everyones time. I showed Egwene's use of stilling as an example to counter BFGs example, which was Nynaeve making Balefire. You ignored all that.

 

As to the quote on Water and Air... yes you did quote it. Why you're still confused on this issue is beyond me. The entire quote is right there.

 

actually I didn't take it out of context, I put the 'duel' back into context if you would have left out that word then I wouldn't have looked up the context which it happened in. It is still an counter example but by saying it was a duel it implies there was an actual fight with both sides being involved.

 

As for the quote for some reason I though it was you putting in the second part about how she barely had to think, I mixed that up.

 

Well, BFG called Nynaeve killing the Fades a duel. I called Egwene shielding Amico a duel. Either we both definied duel right, or both did it wrong. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that both have invented something while fighting, which was the only point being discussed.

 

I won't argue that she created something, but I am going to go with both defining duel wrong in that aspect. I didn't notice that BFG did that

[Nightstrike]

Sneaking up and hitting someone from behind with a shovel is a duel, then? It must be.

[Suttree]

You are trolling me at this point aren't you? You can admit it as there really is no other explanation.
 
You created the "straw man" long ago that I was the one who said only dueling skills count. This will be the single last time I reply to you but understand "combat" and a "shield duel" are to vastly different things.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

She's got above average strength, and she's strong in the 5, and yet she can't Heal. What makes people believe so strongly that she must be a duelling Champ?

For the love of God stop with the logical fallacies Nightstrike. This beyond absurd at this point.

 

Also for the last time why are you so focused on dueling skills? The OP said combat  straight out and a fight in which Rand and Sammael are travelling and firing off attacks fits that bill exactly. Not one person has said only dueling skills count and Egwene would never commmit to an arm wrestle like Nyn/Mogi.

 

The logical fallacy is in believing Egwene is a duelling champ, with nothing to back it up. We've never even seen her train, and we do know she places Nynaeve's ability higher than her own.

 

Rand chased Sammael, and that was a hunt, not a duel. Never did he actuall stand and duel.

 

You are trolling me at this point aren't you? You can admit it as there really is no other explanation.

 

You created the "straw man" long ago that I was the one who said only dueling skills count. This will be the single last time I reply to you but understand "combat" and a "shield duel" are to vastly different things.

 

I'm done here, by the way. Durinax and Nighstrike can continue with their absurd delusions. This debate is over.

[Nightstrike]

That was because you did say it then, but contradicted yourself right after. Anyway, fact is we do not know Egwene is a duelling champ. We know Nynave is much stronger, and that Egwene places her above herself. That's all the relevant info we have.

[Suttree]

@Durinax

 

Of course they both know they are fighting the other. How does that change anyting from the way Rand/Ravhin went down?

[Durinax]

@Durinax

 

Of course they both know they are fighting the other. How does that change anyting from the way Rand/Ravhin went down?

it doesn't but I am merely say such because you brought up that point right after I brought up Amico again. Once the battle is begun then it can move and shift. But at this point that would make it 100x harder to make logical arguments one way or another. I think it would be almost impossible to argue one side being better at planning to move the fight to a place that would better suit them. The only logical argument in that is that Nyn would be slightly weaker because she has a history of anger and of giving chase, with her anger being mostly gone that does not seem an issue anymore.

[BFG]

25 pages and I think I'm going to leave it at what Barid(?) said umpteen pages ago.

 

I'd back Nyn in a targeted strike against the Forsaken and Eg for being in command and weaving in a large scale battle. The evidence and experience for both is pretty much all in that direction, thus who would win can only be taken in context with the situation of the battle.

 

Thanks for the info fionwe, but I think we were both wrong in our definition of a duel :) and both Nyn & Eg can innovate in battle and in battle (specifically) both have shown skill.

[Kahsm]

That was because you did say it then, but contradicted yourself right after. Anyway, fact is we do not know Egwene is a duelling champ. We know Nynave is much stronger, and that Egwene places her above herself. That's all the relevant info we have.

 

Meh I'll keep going, what the hell.

 

We know strength isn't everything, and Egwene's opinion of her own skills and those of her friends are almost irrelevant. WOT is FILLED with the characters selling themselves short.

 

Perrin: "Mat and Rand are so good with women"

Mat: "Perrin and Rand know how to talk to women!"

Rand: "Mat and Perrin are good with women"

 

Obviously they can't all be correct. I suggest you take Egwene's assertion to be similarly non objective.

 

Now, Egwene is the "battle" archetype (even identifies Green Ajah FFS) to Nynaeve the "healer", so that's a hell of a lot stronger than anything you've got even if it's not definitive.

 

I mean when I read "Conan the Barbarian" I didn't question his Barbarian-ness until he demonstrated every requirement on my preconceived checklist. He's written that way, so is Egwene. Deal with it.

[BFG]

 

That was because you did say it then, but contradicted yourself right after. Anyway, fact is we do not know Egwene is a duelling champ. We know Nynave is much stronger, and that Egwene places her above herself. That's all the relevant info we have.

 

Meh I'll keep going, what the hell.

 

We know strength isn't everything, and Egwene's opinion of her own skills and those of her friends are almost irrelevant. WOT is FILLED with the characters selling themselves short.

 

Perrin: "Mat and Rand are so good with women"

Mat: "Perrin and Rand know how to talk to women!"

Rand: "Mat and Perrin are good with women"

 

Obviously they can't all be correct. I suggest you take Egwene's assertion to be similarly non objective.

 

Now, Egwene is the "battle" archetype (even identifies Green Ajah FFS) to Nynaeve the "healer", so that's a hell of a lot stronger than anything you've got even if it's not definitive.

 

I mean when I read "Conan the Barbarian" I didn't question his Barbarian-ness until he demonstrated every requirement on my preconceived checklist. He's written that way, so is Egwene. Deal with it.

 

Except that Nyn doesn't shie away from battles and is far from your typical yellow.  In fact Nyns tendancies are to jump in to help out. 

[WMBunt]

Does it really matter, ultimately? In a lot of ways I think there can be some comparisons made between Egwene/Nynaeve and Suian/Moiraine.

Both are adept at what they do. Both are very skilled. At full strength, I wouldn't want to be on the opposite side of facing either of them. Egwene has taken more of the Suian route by the end of the story by being in positions where her freedom to choose what she wants to do is in many ways constrained by her duty to the White Tower and winning the Last Battle. Nynaeve has the "freedom" that Moiraine had to be out in the middle of things working toward the same cause of winning the Last Battle and has been able to take a more active/front line approach.

Could they beat each other? On any given day I think either could beat the other. They are both smart, they are both adaptive they are both powerful. Me, I'd fight with either of them. Personally, I would think Egwene would win in a duel, but that's personal opinion. I don't know that posting facts or text to back things up really matters because people have their minds made up and will just ignore it anyway.

[shortkut]

Halfway through this thread I have learned two things:

 

1. Eggy is really weak

2. Nyn is so clumsy and blunt with her weaves that she couldn't bend her flows around a blade of grass

 

 

Nyn has dexterity, it is how she is good with healing. She is also a fast learner. She could have picked up a few things from talaan. Eggy only uses her dexterity to control multiple weaves at one, which Nyn can do as well. Talaan is the only one who has been shown to use her dexterity in a creative way

[Suttree]

 

 

 

Nyn has dexterity, it is how she is good with healing.

You do realize it is possible to have dexterity in an area of talent and not in general channeling correct short?

[fionwe1987]

 

1. Eggy is really weak

This thread is plumbing new lows, I see.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

1. Eggy is really weak

This thread is plumbing new lows, I see.

 

 

I believe that was sarcasm pointing out the hyperbole of the respective arguments. 

 

In any case, there doesn't seem to be a point to this thread any more. Unless someone actually has something new and relevant to add, I don't see much point in further discussion. 

[Mr Ares]

 

 

 

For the record, I do not. Saying something over and over again does you no favors, to borrow one of your lines If you repeat an opinion often enough, it still does not become fact (about ignoring words.) Along the same line, you could have said that my opinion makes no sense TO YOU. You do not nor ever will decide what makes sense for me or for others. If you really want to do that, go join a priesthood and tell others how to think and interpret words. I believe my opinion makes sense, and again, I apologize if you don't like that. I've explained my position on the issue and what I feel was the main reason for Tal's victory, and others apparently feel similarly.

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

 

Which highlights the quite obvious inherent flaw in Emily's post. Stop making sense Mr Ares, there is no place for that in this thread. Far easier to just liken someone to a religious zealot if they poke holes in your line of reasoning.

A quote that people should bear in mind when brining up their opinion: "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No-one is entitled to be ignorant."

QFT 

 

Well, I'd like to stop making sense, but it really isn't in my nature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, I do not. Saying something over and over again does you no favors, to borrow one of your lines If you repeat an opinion often enough, it still does not become fact (about ignoring words.) Along the same line, you could have said that my opinion makes no sense TO YOU. You do not nor ever will decide what makes sense for me or for others. If you really want to do that, go join a priesthood and tell others how to think and interpret words. I believe my opinion makes sense, and again, I apologize if you don't like that. I've explained my position on the issue and what I feel was the main reason for Tal's victory, and others apparently feel similarly.

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

 

 

Which highlights the quite obvious inherent flaw in Emily's post. Stop making sense Mr Ares, there is no place for that in this thread. Far easier to just liken someone to a religious zealot if they poke holes in your line of reasoning.

A quote that people should bear in mind when brining up their opinion: "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No-one is entitled to be ignorant."

QFT

 

 

 

 

Again, you make the same mistake that if you somehow declare 'It makes no sense!,' then *whom*, it doesn't.  Just because you view something that way, does not make it so.  For the love of light.

 

Since you liked my relating you to a religious zealot:  if interpretation and opinion is so clear cut, why are people still arguing over one of the most read and most studied books in history, the bible.  Why is there no clear cut 'the bible says this, so do this.'  Why is there such a difference between sects of Christianity? 

 

I have degrees too.  I whole bunch of them in truth, and have taken many classes in various universities dealing with written works and other forms of information.  So far as my experience goes, most professors don't care about your position as well as it is reasoned out.  Person A and person B in the class may reach different conclussions based on the same text, it doesn't mean either is 'wrong.'  It's up for others to decide which opinion that they feel has a stronger basis, it is not person A to go tell person B that their interpretation is wrong and has no worth. 

Wrong. Person A and person B have every right to declare that the position of the other makes no sense. Unless they can offer solid justification of it, then it has little weight, but they can still say it regardless. Like when people disagree with me - they have a right to do so, but their opinions, by virtue of not being as well reasoned or as well presented as mine, will invariably end up being worth less than mine.

 

 

 

blah, blah, blah

Whole bunch of defensive words to avoid the obvious point and flaw in your thiniking...

 Mr Ares

 

 

I don't speak for Suttree, but if I say an opinion makes no sense, I mean something different to it makes no sense to me. You might think it makes sense. That doesn't make it so.

 

 

So far as my experience goes, most professors don't care about your position as well as it is reasoned out.

The bolded beng key and I would change that to "well reasoned out". See the problem now?

 

Lighten up Emily, the debate is all in good fun.

 

Edit: Lastly nothing about the dexterity is still being discussed. Even those such as BFG(if you want to point me to somene else that says what Talaan did does not take dexterity feel free to show me what I missed)  that see the wrestling angle agree it would take dexterity to actually make it happen. Dexterity that Nyn could not keep up with. Your own example backed you into a corner here.

 

 

 

 

Alrighty, I decree that your reasoning makes no sense.  You might think it makes sense to you, but I have decided that it does not.  Ha ha.  That would be the flaw in Mr. Ares assertion.  I can see a world built upon that right now..  a child sitting in a classroom learing that in our main math system, 2 + 2 = 4.  The child tenatively holds up her hand and says "Ms. Teacher, that doesn't make any sense!'  The children all around her say the same thing.  It doesn't make any sense!  The teacher explains why it does, but the children all say at once: 'just because it makes sense to you, doesn't make it so!' 

That's not a flaw in my assertion. There is a difference between "it makes no sense" and "it makes no sense to me." People can use both of them wrongly. Merely asserting that someone is isn't enough.

 

To give another logic lesson:  I don't view the US victory in WWII as a matter of the people's desire to serve their country, but rather of the US manufacturing capabilities. 

 

From this line, would you draw the conclussion that I think the people's desire to serve their country played no part in the US winning WWII?

I would draw the conclusion that you need to study history more closely - the Russians did more to win the war than the Yanks.

 

 

There is no guarantee that Rahvin was correct in his assessment - the Chosen do lie to themselves over strength, and unless he had linked with her it would be difficult for a man to accurately gauge a woman's strength. The books and the BWB both state that Lanfear was second strongest, with only Ishamael being stronger (although Aginor seems to be about as strong, given that he's the second strongest man, and vies with Lanfear for second strongest over all).

Lanfear the second strongest? Really? With men having "several" power rand above women, it's obvious that in sheer power the odds of no other forsaken male ding above the 21 of lanfear are extremely slim.

 

The books don't state that lanfear was the 2nd strongest, but that it was said she was 2nd to Lewis and isshy in power. You see the subtle difference? This sucks from my iPad, ill post more from my rig in a few, because I'm sure you're going to twist words and refute this while claiming the forsaken lied to themselves.

So you have nothing to actually refute my point. The BWB confirms it, although I can't quote that as I don't have a copy. And given the rarity of channelers at those sorts of strengths (men being stronger than Graendal are rare, for example), why, with such a small sample size, is it so unreasonable to think that no man amongst the Chosen save Ishamael is stronger than Lanfear, and only Aginor matches her? And we do have a quote from RJ saying that they lie to themselves. We have no reason to believe Rahvin's assessment. No corroborating evidence.

[Entreri]

BWB is not a tell all encyclopedia, it is written in the PoV of several authors...thus anything in it must be taken as speculation.   We will need to wait for that after the series for a encyclopedia.

 

There is no way Lanfear is the 2nd strongest Forsaken in OP strength, that would be impossible, given that Aginor is essentially Rand/LTT's equal and males have several levels above the females.  

 

If this was the case, Rahvin would never make a statement about him or Sammael "OVERWHELMING" Lanfear in a face-to-face confrontation, neither Asmodean, Moghdien would ever mention men being stronger.

 

Someone can certainly ask Brandon this or wait till the series is over.   100% guarantee that most of the male Forsaken are stronger than Lanfear in OP strength, I would wager money on it. 

 

It was merely "uncommon" to have men stronger than Grandael (as strong as Cyndane) in AoL.  Grandael's PoV during that confrontation.

[Barid Bel Medar]

A quote that is related to this: 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 11th, 2005

KOD Signing Report - Pary (Paraphrased)

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Re: bulk "strength" in the Power, RJ reiterated that men were stronger than women by a couple of levels, including Lanfear [whom he reiterated was a woman after all]; but then he also reminded us that that did not take into account the dexterity factor.