The rise (and fall) of nudity in the WoT

[Shaidar]

Finding myself with a small period of time to waste, I decided to carry out an experiment to track RJ's progressively more and more overt preoccupation with BDSM in the series.

 

Automatic searches for number of appearances of " naked" and "switch" for all 12 novels. This is regardless of context, so it's not entirely accurate, but it's accurate enough (I will note that "switch" is hardly ever used by RJ in the sense of switching things, but almost always in the sense of a stick to beat someone with).

 

Here are the results for anyone interested:

• The Eye of the World - 2 " naked", 3 "switch"
  
• The Great Hunt - 9 " naked", 9 "switch"
  
• The Dragon Reborn - 8 " naked", 8 "switch"
  
• The Shadow Rising - 17 " naked", 9 "switch"
  
• The Fires of Heaven - 33 " naked", 16 "switch"
  
• Lord of Chaos - 10 " naked", 8 "switch"
  
• A Crown of Swords - 13 " naked", 12 "switch"
  
• The Path of Daggers - 6 " naked", 13 "switch"
  
• Winter's Heart - 9 " naked", 13 "switch"
  
• The Crossroads of Twilight - 6 " naked", 14 "switch"
  
• Knife of Dreams - 3 " naked", 17 "switch"
  
• The Gathering Storm - 4 " naked", 14 "switch"
  
• Towers of Midnight - 10 " naked", 0 "switch"
  

As we can see, this fixation was almost absent in the first book, though there was a premonition of things to come ("Those proud Aes Sedai who think to stand you up against me. I will dress them in chains and send them running naked to do my bidding"). But it then became quite prevalent in the next two, presumably thanks to the rituals for becoming Accepted. The nakedness element peaked in the TSR-ACoS books, what with all the Aiel sweat tents. I wonder if this in any way contributed to why fans here consistently rate the TSR-LoC books so highly?

 

After that, the nakedness started ebbing away, but came back in a major way in ToM (presumably, this is related to Nynaeve's Aes Sedai test). I am somewhat surprised by this, given the Faile substory; weren't our heroines almost always naked under Shaido captivity? Switchings continued uninterrupted throughout, but fell to zero in ToM. Maybe now that TG is upon the world Randlanders no longer have time to switch each other so profusely?

 

Note also that there is a definite correlation between mentions of naked and of switchings until ACoS, but then it totally breaks down. I wonder why?

 

In any case, there are endless avenues for theorizing and speculation.

[Hagazussa]

Well as someone who are into BDSM I have to say that most of the time they talk about a switch to beat someone with it have nothing to do with BDSM at all, it have to do with corporal punishment in a world where this is very common. Not everything that have to do with whipping someone have to do with BDSM. Now while BDSM as practiced in our real world have everything to do with both or more parties being consensual and the practice of holding damane in the WoT books are definitely not those sections are definitely sexy. I must say though that the scene that made my heart go the most ga ga is the one in, I think it is book 9, where one of the Aes Sedai Logain have bounded have slept with him and she describe how helpless she felt in his arms, not that he hurt her in any way, but for this woman to be completely defenseless since she was bonded to him and he controlled her channeling, not to mention him being a strong channeler himself and that much physically stronger and how it made her feel exhilarated that short description is like a love letter to anyone into BDSM.

 

Now as for nudity, I think the books have handled very naturally. In the first book there is no reason for anyone to get nude, a few of the characters take baths, but other than that they mostly travel around and try to avoid getting killed by Shadowspawn and darkfriends and other nasties. However as the books progresses and relationships form it is natural that the characters start having sex. Now yes I think RJ could take more chances with a bit racier material as his series was established but it do not go overboard and it do not have to. Some book series spend many pages on a detailed in out, in out description of what the characters do in bed and it just wasts space. In WoT the descriptions are more subtle but that do not really take away from it.

 

As for ritual nakedness in the Accepted tests and some other parts of the books, I do not see this as having anything to do with sex, BDSM and otherwise. It may be because I am Pagan but really ritual nakedness is not sexual. You also have a wonderfully awkward scene when a noblewoman in the Borderlands asks Rand to come into the bath with her in the second book I think. That to have nothing to do with sex for to her it is completely natural as in her culture men and women bathe together it is as simple as that, but it is fun to see his reaction.

 

There are however some BDSM themes in the books with some of the characters extremely into chaining up, humiliating, breaking and controlling others and often in a very up close and person way, this is not lost on me. However what books have more of these elements than others, I do not think that have allot of meaning behind it as it is not a main theme of the series, it is just the practices of some groups and the personality of some of the characters and when those groups and characters have less place in a book so will their practices have less space as well.

[Saken]

The switching was predominantly used for correction.

 

The nakedness was used naturally: Sex, ritualistic things with the AS, and to promote shame.

 

The shaido kept Faile and crew naked because they didn't have proper Gaishain garments for them to wear.

 

I don't see BDSM. RJ was not a sexual deviant, .

[Hagazussa]

First of all being into BDSM do not mean that one is a sexual deviant, if I am not mistaken on the numbers over 70 percent of the population have tied out something that can be considered BDSM at some point in their lives, it is a rather natural thing. When that is said we know nothing about RJ's sexual preferences, and it is not something I would like to speculate on, that is between him and his wife and none else. However a person do not need to be into BDSM to have themes that can be seen as belonging to that category in something they writes.

[Mr Ares]

I've always felt that the way some fans like to fixate on the nudity and spanking and other such elements has more to do with them than it does with RJ's sexual preferences. Just because spanking, for example, can be used in a sexual or fetishistic way, doesn't mean all uses of it must therefore be sexual or fetishistic in nature. That said, I will grant that the disproportionate amount of female nudity and women getting spanked/switched/etc. can be attributed in part to RJ being more comfortable writing about it than male nudity or men getting spanked, in much the same way that lesbianism is referenced much more than male homosexuality. Had someone questioned RJ on it, it would not have surprised me if he ended up writing a scene involving a guy getting spanked, or having Rand meet the clan chiefs in a sweat tent - he did similar things in the past (such as with little mention of characters having to use the facilities until he was questioned on why no-one ever used the toilet - cue a couple of mentions of bodily functions in CoT and KoD).

[Sagacious Lu]

The switching was predominantly used for correction.

 

The nakedness was used naturally: Sex, ritualistic things with the AS, and to promote shame.

 

The shaido kept Faile and crew naked because they didn't have proper Gaishain garments for them to wear.

 

I don't see BDSM. RJ was not a sexual deviant, .

 

Yeah, and while we're at it there are no allusions to the mafia in Frank Sinatra's lyrics, and Puff the Magic Dragon is about a child and his beloved pet :p

[Hagazussa]

Just because spanking, for example, can be used in a sexual or fetishistic way, doesn't mean all uses of it must therefore be sexual or fetishistic in nature.

 

This is very true, and there is allot of beatings done in the WoT series which is definitely not even hinting at a sexual nature, like for example how Galina and her group beat and and sometimes Min to, that is just violence, it is done to break his spirit, however you have a few scenes where a character or another is beaten in a way that at least can be seen as well erotic, perhaps the scenes where not meant to convey that but they definitely do, there is a reason why usually someone ask for book recommendations on kink forums someone mentions Wheel of Time.

 

That said, I will grant that the disproportionate amount of female nudity and women getting spanked/switched/etc. can be attributed in part to RJ being more comfortable writing about it than male nudity or men getting spanked, in much the same way that lesbianism is referenced much more than male homosexuality. Had someone questioned RJ on it, it would not have surprised me if he ended up writing a scene involving a guy getting spanked, or having Rand meet the clan chiefs in a sweat tent - he did similar things in the past (such as with little mention of characters having to use the facilities until he was questioned on why no-one ever used the toilet - cue a couple of mentions of bodily functions in CoT and KoD).

 

This is not uncommon in fiction, how many shower seen in various films and TV can you think of where a woman is seen through the curtains and you can see her nude, if not in such detail as to give the piece a 18 year age limit? And compare that to the number of shower scenes with men, usually women is seen showering so one can have a little nudity and men are seen leaving the shower with a towel around them. The homosexuality thing is interesting though, while not mentioned in great detail love or sexual relationships between females appear to be common and accepted though not something one discuss, while we do not often see the same for men. The same with corporal punishments often there are descriptions of it being done to female characters, in greater or lesser detail, but not to men. We know novices and Accepted are beaten for wrongdoings, and Aes Sedai can be. It is fair to assume that those who study to be Warders is also subject to corporal punishment my their teachers but it is never mentioned that I can remember. And what about the Black Tower, do they use other punishments other than death and having one's head hung from a tree like a Christmas bulb? If so nothing is mentioned. Even with the mention of how the Red Ajah teat male channelers it is only mentioned that they are often treated harshly and from how Galina treats Rand we can make an educated guess that beatings might go into that, but few details is given. RJ give far more detail to female characters being beaten or given other forms of corporal punishments, but whatever or not he meant anything by that is not easy to say.

[Wool-headed lummox]

RJ clearly had a raging fetish for lesbian BDSM and the fantasy of an attractive female ruler being forced from her position of authority into subservience and obscurity. While I'm not bothered by this in and of itself, the focus on attractive ageless (or well-aged) females does seem incredibly self-serving and immature, RJ seems to fall into the moral pitfall of graciously accepting homosexual/deviant relations... so long as they involve his (or the reader base's) object of attraction, and completely ignores them in all other cases. See, if it turns me on, I don't have a problem with it, but if it doesn't - then keep it out of my sight. Moral principles defined by expectations of gratification, the ultimate form of hypocrisy.

 

It also begs the question of why there is such a prevalence of powerful and authoritative females in RJ's world. Is it to explore the possibility of a civilization with drastically different gender relations... or did he simply like toying with an endless flock of imaginary young/ageless/well-aged beauties? Given that there is little to no justification for the ubiquitous matriarchy in RJ's world (aside from male channellers going crazy, which does nothing to justify anything), and the fact that there isn't a single prominent female character who isn't breathtakingly beautiful and naked/bonded at many points in the series, I think the answer is clear.

[TNine]

What's strange is that i'm pretty sure a guy main character is taken prisoner like once in the series (Rand), while girls are pretty much taken prisoner and beaten every other chapter. Faile, Egwene, Min, Nynaeve, Elayne, even Aveindha falls into this trap. Not exactly a strong feminist viewpoint.

[Hagazussa]

RJ clearly had a raging fetish for lesbian BDSM and the fantasy of an attractive female ruler being forced from her position of authority into subservience and obscurity. While I'm not bothered by this in and of itself, the focus on attractive ageless (or well-aged) females does seem incredibly self-serving and immature, RJ seems to fall into the moral pitfall of graciously accepting homosexual/deviant relations... so long as they involve his (or the reader base's) object of attraction, and completely ignores them in all other cases. See, if it turns me on, I don't have a problem with it, but if it doesn't - then keep it out of my sight. Moral principles defined by expectations of gratification, the ultimate form of hypocrisy.

 

Or if your theory is correct and Jordan had a interest in BDSM perhaps it is as easy as the only hints at it he felt he could write well was what interested him in the first place, that is not being a hypocrite, that is writing what you know. If someone write in detail about a lesbian relationship but not a homosexual one it may be because they do not know how to or how to do it good, and after all even if, and I do stress if here, Jordan had any interest in BDSM then those themes are not important in the books, I would not then call him being a hypocrite for involving only those elements of that which he may have liked and knew how to do well. Now another explanation why so many of the female characters get kidnapped, humiliated and or physically abused and not the male ones is that while men and women in Wheel of Time have equality in some ways, it is still a very typical fantasy world, the women get kidnapped and need the strong men to come and rescue them, constantly, which is not an unusual theme in Fantasy.

 

It also begs the question of why there is such a prevalence of powerful and authoritative females in RJ's world. Is it to explore the possibility of a civilization with drastically different gender relations... or did he simply like toying with an endless flock of imaginary young/ageless/well-aged beauties? Given that there is little to no justification for the ubiquitous matriarchy in RJ's world (aside from male channellers going crazy, which does nothing to justify anything), and the fact that there isn't a single prominent female character who isn't breathtakingly beautiful and naked/bonded at many points in the series, I think the answer is clear.

 

Jordan said in an interview that one of his inspirations for Wheel of Time was a world that would eventually evolve into a setting with complete gender equality. Now in Wheel of Time you have gender equality but you still have rigid gender roles, women and men have different places in society but they are equally valued. Now the reason in setting why women have such authority is probably the Aes Sedai, it is difficult to deny women their rights when you have a building full of sorceresses that could hand you your ass on a platter with a thought right next door. Now as for why so many women in the series is beautiful, well so are the men actually, most of the male main characters are extremely good looking, and like I said look at most fantasy, the female cast getting kidnapped and needing rescue is hardly something new.

 

What's strange is that i'm pretty sure a guy main character is taken prisoner like once in the series (Rand), while girls are pretty much taken prisoner and beaten every other chapter. Faile, Egwene, Min, Nynaeve, Elayne, even Aveindha falls into this trap. Not exactly a strong feminist viewpoint.

 

Rand get taken prisoner a few times. Taim get taken prisoner once but we do not see it only hear about it. Logain get taken prisoner and go through hell and then spend most of book five and six as a prisoner again. Perrin get taken prisoner at least once and so on, it do happen but yes usually when the men get taken prisoner it is serious business, they may be ill teated but it is then so badly that none would think of it as kinky, or they get taken prisoner to be killed or worse, the women more get humiliated or enslaved or if they are physically abused it is in a way that could be seen as kinky yes. There are off course a few cases where this do not apply but for the most part I do see your point here.

[Dagon Thyne]

The switching was predominantly used for correction.

 

The nakedness was used naturally: Sex, ritualistic things with the AS, and to promote shame.

 

The shaido kept Faile and crew naked because they didn't have proper Gaishain garments for them to wear.

 

I don't see BDSM. RJ was not a sexual deviant, .

 

I'm sure graendal did some bad things with her toys, but RJ never showed any of it. I can picture her being spanked by some king or queen, and boy does she like being spanked..

[Wool-headed lummox]

Now another explanation why so many of the female characters get kidnapped, humiliated and or physically abused and not the male ones is that while men and women in Wheel of Time have equality in some ways, it is still a very typical fantasy world, the women get kidnapped and need the strong men to come and rescue them, constantly, which is not an unusual theme in Fantasy.

The problem is, RJ completely undermines the "damsel in distress waiting for a strong hero" cliche by giving the woman immense superpowers, making them elite warriors, noblewomen, and giving them all a bitchy independent attitude which does not tolerate the slightest bit of condescension from men. And then he goes ahead and does it anyway.

[Mr Ares]

Just because spanking, for example, can be used in a sexual or fetishistic way, doesn't mean all uses of it must therefore be sexual or fetishistic in nature.

 

This is very true, and there is allot of beatings done in the WoT series which is definitely not even hinting at a sexual nature, like for example how Galina and her group beat and and sometimes Min to, that is just violence, it is done to break his spirit, however you have a few scenes where a character or another is beaten in a way that at least can be seen as well erotic, perhaps the scenes where not meant to convey that but they definitely do, there is a reason why usually someone ask for book recommendations on kink forums someone mentions Wheel of Time.

Well, I stand by what I said before - just because some scenes can be read in a certain way, doesn't mean that that is what the author had in mind when writing. If people see those scenes in a certain light, that's a reflection on them, not just the author - and possibly more so on them than the author. While I can think of characters with BDSM preferences, I can't think of any scenes off hand that really convey to the reader the impression that the author was into that - depiction does not equal endorsement after all.

 

By the way, you keep saying allot when you mean a lot - it's two words. Allot means something else.

 

That said, I will grant that the disproportionate amount of female nudity and women getting spanked/switched/etc. can be attributed in part to RJ being more comfortable writing about it than male nudity or men getting spanked, in much the same way that lesbianism is referenced much more than male homosexuality. Had someone questioned RJ on it, it would not have surprised me if he ended up writing a scene involving a guy getting spanked, or having Rand meet the clan chiefs in a sweat tent - he did similar things in the past (such as with little mention of characters having to use the facilities until he was questioned on why no-one ever used the toilet - cue a couple of mentions of bodily functions in CoT and KoD).

 

This is not uncommon in fiction, how many shower seen in various films and TV can you think of where a woman is seen through the curtains and you can see her nude, if not in such detail as to give the piece a 18 year age limit? And compare that to the number of shower scenes with men, usually women is seen showering so one can have a little nudity and men are seen leaving the shower with a towel around them. The homosexuality thing is interesting though, while not mentioned in great detail love or sexual relationships between females appear to be common and accepted though not something one discuss, while we do not often see the same for men. The same with corporal punishments often there are descriptions of it being done to female characters, in greater or lesser detail, but not to men. We know novices and Accepted are beaten for wrongdoings, and Aes Sedai can be. It is fair to assume that those who study to be Warders is also subject to corporal punishment my their teachers but it is never mentioned that I can remember. And what about the Black Tower, do they use other punishments other than death and having one's head hung from a tree like a Christmas bulb? If so nothing is mentioned. Even with the mention of how the Red Ajah teat male channelers it is only mentioned that they are often treated harshly and from how Galina treats Rand we can make an educated guess that beatings might go into that, but few details is given. RJ give far more detail to female characters being beaten or given other forms of corporal punishments, but whatever or not he meant anything by that is not easy to say.

We do see an example of Taim punishing someone in KoD epilogue - cracking a skull with a club of Air and saying he can have Healing if he's still alive in the morning. I'm not a great expert on BDSM, but I think that's a little more... brutal than most would tend to consider a turn on. On the other hand, given that spanking is far more common as a form of kink, it's probably easier for people to see all the spanking as kinky, rather than as just a punishment. People are drawing the connection themselves because in this day and age it's uncommon to consider spanking an adult as something appropriate outside of a bedroom context. On the other hand, beating someone unconscious is easy to see as a form of harsh and brutal discipline.

 

It also begs the question of why there is such a prevalence of powerful and authoritative females in RJ's world. Is it to explore the possibility of a civilization with drastically different gender relations... or did he simply like toying with an endless flock of imaginary young/ageless/well-aged beauties? Given that there is little to no justification for the ubiquitous matriarchy in RJ's world (aside from male channellers going crazy, which does nothing to justify anything), and the fact that there isn't a single prominent female character who isn't breathtakingly beautiful and naked/bonded at many points in the series, I think the answer is clear.

The matriarchy in RJ's world is not as ubiquitous as is often claimed, and has a reasonable justification. After all, if men can go crazy and women are your main defence against it, surely it is reasonable that this would lead to an increase in power for women? When the most powerful political organisation on the continent is comprised of women it is not unreasonable that this would lead to women generally having a better place in society than they often did in our own history. Besides, we have had scenes of the Wise Ones in their sweat tents - now, alas, RJ didn't choose to focus on the naked Sorilea that some seem so desperate for, but we have had prominent, elderly, female characters go around naked. Either RJ had somewhat odd tastes, or he had something more in mind than just toying with the beauties (especially as the nudity is so often skipped over. Some cultures have hang ups over nudity, others don't - we see plenty of examples of scenes in which people happen to be naked, or how uncomfortable the TR people are with all the nudity, but fewer examples of time spent dwelling on the naked female form (or male form for that matter), so the argument that this is intended solely, or even principally, as gratuitous titillation is hard to sustain).

 

What's strange is that i'm pretty sure a guy main character is taken prisoner like once in the series (Rand), while girls are pretty much taken prisoner and beaten every other chapter. Faile, Egwene, Min, Nynaeve, Elayne, even Aveindha falls into this trap. Not exactly a strong feminist viewpoint.

When those women are being captured by other women, rescuing themselves without needing to rely on men, and are being rescued by other women (which accounts for a significant number of cases, even if not all), it does somewhat undermine your point. Women being captured does not equate to a damsel in distress.

[Saken]

First of all being into BDSM do not mean that one is a sexual deviant, if I am not mistaken on the numbers over 70 percent of the population have tied out something that can be considered BDSM at some point in their lives, it is a rather natural thing. When that is said we know nothing about RJ's sexual preferences, and it is not something I would like to speculate on, that is between him and his wife and none else. However a person do not need to be into BDSM to have themes that can be seen as belonging to that category in something they writes.

 

Yes it does.

[zerachiel76]

First of all being into BDSM do not mean that one is a sexual deviant, if I am not mistaken on the numbers over 70 percent of the population have tied out something that can be considered BDSM at some point in their lives, it is a rather natural thing. When that is said we know nothing about RJ's sexual preferences, and it is not something I would like to speculate on, that is between him and his wife and none else. However a person do not need to be into BDSM to have themes that can be seen as belonging to that category in something they writes.

 

Yes it does.

 

In your opinion, which isn't shared by everyone. Live and let live.

 

Jordan said in an interview that one of his inspirations for Wheel of Time was a world that would eventually evolve into a setting with complete gender equality. Now in Wheel of Time you have gender equality but you still have rigid gender roles, women and men have different places in society but they are equally valued.

 

Are you kidding me? Equally valued!? In Far Madding men have virtually no rights and aren't valued at all. In Andor a men can't be the leader of the country and succession is decided by how many female links that person has to the first Queen (who only won the throne due to her marriage to Souraine Maravaile, one of Artur Hawkwing's best generals but his contribution and indeed the army's contribution is ignored by Elaine and the other spoilt noblewomen who want to be Queen), and there's a place where if a woman kills a man it's fully legally justified unless it can be proved otherwise. I think it might be Ebou Dar but I'm not sure. I'm sure there are other things and places as well but I can't think of them at this moment.

 

I realise this one sidedness and prejudice against men is part of the story so I don't let it wind me up as much as it did when I was younger, but I can't sit by while people try to claim men and women are equally valued in Randland. By the way I do know there are some countries where men and women are equally valued such as the borderlands, Cairhen and others.

[fuzz1717]

The switching was predominantly used for correction.

 

The nakedness was used naturally: Sex, ritualistic things with the AS, and to promote shame.

 

The shaido kept Faile and crew naked because they didn't have proper Gaishain garments for them to wear.

 

I don't see BDSM. RJ was not a sexual deviant, .

 

Yeah, and while we're at it there are no allusions to the mafia in Frank Sinatra's lyrics, and Puff the Magic Dragon is about a child and his beloved pet :p

 

LOL you just ruined someones childhood haha. I remember when i learned the allegations made behind that song, i was devastated.

 

 

Are you kidding me? Equally valued!? In Far Madding men have virtually no rights and aren't valued at all. In Andor a men can't be the leader of the country and succession is decided by how many female links that person has to the first Queen (who only won the throne due to her marriage to Souraine Maravaile, one of Artur Hawkwing's best generals but his contribution and indeed the army's contribution is ignored by Elaine and the other spoilt noblewomen who want to be Queen), and there's a place where if a woman kills a man it's fully legally justified unless it can be proved otherwise. I think it might be Ebou Dar but I'm not sure. I'm sure there are other things and places as well but I can't think of them at this moment.

 

I realise this one sidedness and prejudice against men is part of the story so I don't let it wind me up as much as it did when I was younger, but I can't sit by while people try to claim men and women are equally valued in Randland. By the way I do know there are some countries where men and women are equally valued such as the borderlands, Cairhen and others.

 

I mean, lets be honest, its more equal than (American) society today, where women get 77 cents to the male dollar. Perhaps it only seems really woman favoured because it is so radically different from what we are used to. And while yes, many lines of heritage are linked to the wife (at least in Andor), among the Aiel, only men become chiefs, and in the majority of countries, there is a king (Murandy, Amacadia, Arad Doman, Arafel, Malkeir sort of, Shienar, Cairhein usually, Illian both before and after Rand, Taraborn now that Thera is gone).

[Knivy]

The switching was predominantly used for correction.

 

The nakedness was used naturally: Sex, ritualistic things with the AS, and to promote shame.

 

The shaido kept Faile and crew naked because they didn't have proper Gaishain garments for them to wear.

 

I don't see BDSM. RJ was not a sexual deviant, .

 

Yeah, and while we're at it there are no allusions to the mafia in Frank Sinatra's lyrics, and Puff the Magic Dragon is about a child and his beloved pet :p

 

LOL you just ruined someones childhood haha. I remember when i learned the allegations made behind that song, i was devastated.

 

 

Are you kidding me? Equally valued!? In Far Madding men have virtually no rights and aren't valued at all. In Andor a men can't be the leader of the country and succession is decided by how many female links that person has to the first Queen (who only won the throne due to her marriage to Souraine Maravaile, one of Artur Hawkwing's best generals but his contribution and indeed the army's contribution is ignored by Elaine and the other spoilt noblewomen who want to be Queen), and there's a place where if a woman kills a man it's fully legally justified unless it can be proved otherwise. I think it might be Ebou Dar but I'm not sure. I'm sure there are other things and places as well but I can't think of them at this moment.

 

I realise this one sidedness and prejudice against men is part of the story so I don't let it wind me up as much as it did when I was younger, but I can't sit by while people try to claim men and women are equally valued in Randland. By the way I do know there are some countries where men and women are equally valued such as the borderlands, Cairhen and others.

 

I mean, lets be honest, its more equal than (American) society today, where women get 77 cents to the male dollar. Perhaps it only seems really woman favoured because it is so radically different from what we are used to. And while yes, many lines of heritage are linked to the wife (at least in Andor), among the Aiel, only men become chiefs, and in the majority of countries, there is a king (Murandy, Amacadia, Arad Doman, Arafel, Malkeir sort of, Shienar, Cairhein usually, Illian both before and after Rand, Taraborn now that Thera is gone).

Check out the "Men's Rights Movement" thread in the D&D section of the forum ;)

[Suttree]

Check out the "Men's Rights Movement" thread in the D&D section of the forum ;)

 

Lol....shudders.

[David Selig]

Are you kidding me? Equally valued!? In Far Madding men have virtually no rights and aren't valued at all. In Andor a men can't be the leader of the country and succession is decided by how many female links that person has to the first Queen (who only won the throne due to her marriage to Souraine Maravaile, one of Artur Hawkwing's best generals but his contribution and indeed the army's contribution is ignored by Elaine and the other spoilt noblewomen who want to be Queen), and there's a place where if a woman kills a man it's fully legally justified unless it can be proved otherwise. I think it might be Ebou Dar but I'm not sure. I'm sure there are other things and places as well but I can't think of them at this moment.

 

I realise this one sidedness and prejudice against men is part of the story so I don't let it wind me up as much as it did when I was younger, but I can't sit by while people try to claim men and women are equally valued in Randland. By the way I do know there are some countries where men and women are equally valued such as the borderlands, Cairhen and others.

Those are not just some countries, those are by far the majority of Randland countries. Far Madding is just one city and the only place where there is a clear matriarchy. Altara has odd customs, but they have had plenty of Kings and Lords. Andor only has queens, but all the other titles in nobility are evenly split between gender, and nothing is stopping the men from working and be successful at any job.

 

On the other hand, we have Amadicia, where the male-only Whitecloaks rule. So overall Randland pretty balanced between the genders.

[Hagazussa]

To Mr Ares

 

Well, I stand by what I said before - just because some scenes can be read in a certain way, doesn't mean that that is what the author had in mind when writing. If people see those scenes in a certain light, that's a reflection on them, not just the author - and possibly more so on them than the author. While I can think of characters with BDSM preferences, I can't think of any scenes off hand that really convey to the reader the impression that the author was into that - depiction does not equal endorsement after all.

 

I agree with this, while at the same time there is allot of it in these books. There are allot of books where various characters get taken captive at some point or another, and sometimes that captivity involves some form of physical abuse and yet the times this happen to female characters in WoT it do seam to have a certain flair about it, but off course that might be me just reading to much into it, I am not saying that the author intended any kind of BDSM to be present in the books.

 

By the way, you keep saying allot when you mean a lot - it's two words. Allot means something else.

 

Thank you but this is not English class, obviously you are able to understand what I am writing. I am sorry to sound cranky but I have dyslexia and all the well meaning folks giving me spelling and grammar advice can at times be irritating, again thank you, like I said I do not mean to snap at you I am just so tired of this. If I write something you do not understand please feel free to ask me, but if you understand what I write then can we please discuss the topic at hand and not my spelling and grammar?

 

We do see an example of Taim punishing someone in KoD epilogue - cracking a skull with a club of Air and saying he can have Healing if he's still alive in the morning. I'm not a great expert on BDSM, but I think that's a little more... brutal than most would tend to consider a turn on.

 

That would not be safe, sane and consensual no. :P But that is kind of my point that I have made several times now, when men are done physical violence to as punishment it is usually so brutal and of a character that definitely would not turn anyone one, while with women it is more in the lines of beatings for humiliation that do little real damage.

 

On the other hand, given that spanking is far more common as a form of kink, it's probably easier for people to see all the spanking as kinky, rather than as just a punishment. People are drawing the connection themselves because in this day and age it's uncommon to consider spanking an adult as something appropriate outside of a bedroom context. On the other hand, beating someone unconscious is easy to see as a form of harsh and brutal discipline.

 

This might be it, but then there are allot of books that have beatings that in no way makes most people think in BDSM terms. It is not that non lethal forms of beatings are used as punishment to give pain that is a strange concept to wrap one's brain around it is more the flavor of how it is done in the Wheel of Time books. Now I am not saying that Jordan intended BDSM themes to be in his books, I am just saying that some of the flavor of the books make them fan favorites among folks interested in BDSM that is all.

 

To Saken:

 

No actually it do not mean that one is a deviant or that something is wrong with you for enjoying BDSM, just like you are not a deviant and there is nothing wrong with you if you are gay, bisexual and so on. BDSM is a sexual preference and it is done between consenting adults and I actually take quite a bit of offense at you calling me and my hubby and a good portion of my friends for deviants and indicate that there is something wrong with us for how we prefer to interact in bed. I suggest you lean a bit about BDSM before you condemn it.

 

To: Wool-headed lummox:

 

The problem is, RJ completely undermines the "damsel in distress waiting for a strong hero" cliche by giving the woman immense superpowers, making them elite warriors, noblewomen, and giving them all a bitchy independent attitude which does not tolerate the slightest bit of condescension from men. And then he goes ahead and does it anyway.

 

So in your opinion a female character need to be weak, meek and defenseless or they can not be a part of a story where they are rescued? A woman can wait for a strong hero and still be strong herself.

 

Are you kidding me? Equally valued!? In Far Madding men have virtually no rights and aren't valued at all. In Andor a men can't be the leader of the country and succession is decided by how many female links that person has to the first Queen (who only won the throne due to her marriage to Souraine Maravaile, one of Artur Hawkwing's best generals but his contribution and indeed the army's contribution is ignored by Elaine and the other spoilt noblewomen who want to be Queen), and there's a place where if a woman kills a man it's fully legally justified unless it can be proved otherwise. I think it might be Ebou Dar but I'm not sure. I'm sure there are other things and places as well but I can't think of them at this moment

 

Like I said there are different social roles, but men are generally still the leaders, they are the soldiers, the leaders of villages and women takes their husband's name when they marry. Now yes in some societies men have a poor standing and in some nations like Amadicia women have a poor standing, but in most nations in Wheel of Time when you look at the whole then there is equality between the sexes or at least something similar to equality. Now I am not saying that there is not allot of man bashing going on in the series, there is and I am not a fan of that, but for the most part that is more individual characters more than a social norm and even when a social norm it is in most cases the men tolerating it rather than it being forced on them, which do make allot of difference.

[Yosarian]

There are certanly a few more ore less unambiguas examples of BSDM being used. (Perrin spanking Faile after she smacked him one too many times...considering their relationship, it's hard to argue that one.) There isn't that much of it in the books, though, and what there is is generally pretty light and generally glossed over rather then focused on.

[driedraspberry]

I agree that it's a matter of perception. Public baths, stripped prisoners, whipping...it's a time before swimsuita. Shrugs. But we almost never see men in that sense. Other than Rand, who seems perpetually nude in front of large groups of people.

 

If RJ was into anything, it's voyeurism. The warder bond, ta'veren trio bond...so much awkwardness.

 

Check out the "Men's Rights Movement" thread in the D&D section of the forum ;)

 

Omg. Privilege is so tough.

[Knivy]

Check it out before insulting people.

[driedraspberry]

Check it out before insulting people.

 

You're serious...? And I did. I had to stop at the point about giving men abortion rights. smh.

[Knivy]

Okay whatevs.

 

As for the topic, I believe the nudity was worked in very smoothly, and I don't remember thinking it was out of place (except maybe Rhuidean), but the switchings were over the top...