Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Finnssss22]

Either way, I'm not going to critique it all to the point where it ruins the ending for me. ESPECIALLY when we haven't even read the freaking ending yet!

 

All I know is that I'm going into this last book looking forward to enjoying the ending. I'm not going into it looking for mistakes. I can find the "mistakes" later. I'm going to god damned well enjoy the ****ing ending to a series I have been reading for more than 20 years FIRST!

See this I find very strange. First why would critiquing a work of art mean that the ending will be ruined? If Brandon steps up to the plate and hits a home run with this last book you will find many of us that have studied this his closely absolutely ecstatic. In fact if the numerous mistakes from ToM don't happen this time around since the Team acknowledged them/asked for more time to get it "right" and the prose is polished to the point where it's no longer uneven/jarring I would venture to guess that many of the complaints will fade away.

 

What I will never do however is turn a blind eye to the problems because I am trying to force myself to  "god damned well enjoy the ****ing ending to a series I have been reading for more than 20 years FIRST!". How could anyone possibly say that until they have actually read the book? After all as you said yourself "we haven't even read the freaking ending yet!" As always I will give an honest assessment of what I am reading, it does Brandon a huge disservice to ignore the problems and I feel it actually hampered his growth as an author when this was done after TGS. It's essentially saying "well I don't think he is capable of doing better so I'm just going to enjoy it, where lucky to get the ending after all."

 

I've said this a number of times but look Team Jordan admitted the problems with ToM, they changed Brandon's writing process to add more "polish" to his prose and they asked for more time because they have to get AMoL "right". I have faith in their work and I have faith in Brandon as an author. Peter has gone on record here saying how hard Brandon has worked on this last book and how proud of the result he is.  I think we do have a home run coming our way...after making a point to convey all those changes post the ToM mess and going on record about the amount of effort Brandon put in it has to be awesome. I'm putting my trust in Team Jordan.

 

I never once said to ignore any problems, real, imagined or exaggerated. I said I'm going to enjoy it first, critique it later so spare me the high horse, blind eye crap. Especially considering that some of the things you think are getting a blind eye are simply things that just don't bother some of us to the same degree.

I'm not going to put a "blind eye" to anything, I'm just not going into it LOOKING for mistakes. At least not on the first read, that's for damned sure.

[Suttree]

Sorry my bad, misunderstood what you meant. It sounded like you had already made your mind up as to the quality and how much you would enjoy it before you read anything. I didn't understand how you could make such a declarative statement otherwise but thanks for clarifying.

 

Really though how many times do I have to say I didn't have much of a problem with the pregnancy thing. Nevertheless IMO yoniy0 has the right of it in his post before your last one about the CoT quote. It is about as cut and dry as you can get and he states clearly what some people have an issue with. Additionally has anyone said they are going to go into the last book "looking" for mistakes(when we have had very little new material in years and people do re-reads of course the issues will stand out)? The problem being when things like the "linking" issue come out in per-release materials let's not pretend the problems are things one has to "look" for. They quite literally jump of the page in certain places and again I will be ecstatic if they fix that in AMol and fully expect them to. Regardless let's just please stick to discussion on the content. That is what this thread is for.

 

Back on content still waiting on that quote where you claimed RJ wrote that the channeling issue is different for every pregnant woman. As I requested in that first response please provide it.

[Maleshub]

 

All I know is that I'm going into this last book looking forward to enjoying the ending. I'm not going into it looking for mistakes. I can find the "mistakes" later.  

After reading TGS and ToM three times over the past 13 months, I have found that concentrating on a certain plotline or character (which I did in one reread) or concentrating on character mistakes (which I did in one of the rereads) takes a way from enjoying the book. My last reread, finished 3 days ago was "neutral." I wasn't looking for anything specific; just reading for better understanding, refreshing my memory, and enjoyment. And I was surprised at some of the "gems" I found; and I noted that lessened negativity on my part since I wasn't looking for mistakes. My perception of the books improved with that "neutral" reading.

 

It isn't as if I didn't come across a few "grunt" lines and what I thought were apparent errors; but the "gems" were more than the "grunts and errors."

[shortkut]

I like his sutt is emphasizing the word will in that quote but not the word some. Changing the emphasis completely scuttles his interpretation which is exactly what this whole argument is about:

 

Person A: I've grown up in tar valid and believe the tooth fairy, I mean AS are real and perfect

 

Person B: no they are stupid

 

A: you just don't understand! Lalalalalala

 

B: shutup

 

C: both of you take a long wall off a short pier... Heck, forget the pier, just get walking

[Sid]

I'm not going to put a "blind eye" to anything, I'm just not going into it LOOKING for mistakes. At least not on the first read, that's for damned sure.

I don't know about you, but when I read the WoT, I look at the details, because the first books programmed me to do so.  Even if I don't intend to, things just jump out at me if they spark an idea or a possible inconsistency, which I generally cross reference online or in the other books.  I certainly did not do this at first, but after a few re-reads I found that to not do so means there are so many layers of the onion that you're missing it's almost a disservice to the author to not attempt to appreciate the material fully.  I don't look for mistakes specifically, but any incongruity used to mean something.  Why is this odd thing mentioned specifically?  Why is this other thing not mentioned?  Why did they say what they said a certain way?  etc.  I, and some others I'm sure, cannot simply turn it off and say 'la la la look at the pretty colors', although a first read through is sometimes something like that.  To give the series its proper due, it should be dissected to appreciate as many layers as possible.  Mistakes in the last few books have unfortunately been found this way, not by going out of the way to find mistakes, but in trying to appreciate the intricate plot RJ had planned out.  When the mistakes become apparent, it hints that what's on the page isn't what RJ intended to happen, and that's not something I want to see.  RJ was the king of foreshadowing, and there's literally nothing that hinted at this happening, and a quote that suggests it wouldn't.  If this mistake of Elayne being able to channel without trouble all the time before she gives birth when it's been said that wouldn't happen by a character that's an expert on such things figures into a major plot point as it's likely to, it's a blemish on the series' integrity as I see it. 

 

It's that butterfly effect, as TGS really didn't have a lot of obvious things like this by itself.  But one thing in particular, the Twisted Ring Ter'angreal that Team Jordan forgot was with Aviendha (not with Elayne, not with Siuan), seemed small at first, but then eventually led into the big T'a'R battle in ToM that was impossible no matter how many band-aids they tried to patch it with in later editions, because a plot based on a small mistake blows up into one or more big ones.  I can see other examples of small-looking things that don't make a lot of sense becoming stuff major things hinge on later on, and it's frightening to me and those of us that care about the details RJ did.

[Agitel]

More reread comments. There are other ways to mark the timeline than through moon cycles as Jordan did, but I have heard some wish there were moon cycles specifically. I don't think Brandon so much ignored them as realized that noting moon cycles is difficult when the entire sky is blotted out by boiling black and silver clouds except in limited cases during ToM. Or perhaps people weren't complaining about moon cycles specifically (though that was my impression), but the lack of other markers in general. There are apparent timeline issues given the markers Brandon used anyway. I noted a big one myself a few pages back.

[Agitel]

I'm not going to put a "blind eye" to anything, I'm just not going into it LOOKING for mistakes. At least not on the first read, that's for damned sure.

I don't know about you, but when I read the WoT, I look at the details, because the first books programmed me to do so.  Even if I don't intend to, things just jump out at me if they spark an idea or a possible inconsistency, which I generally cross reference online or in the other books.  I certainly did not do this at first, but after a few re-reads I found that to not do so means there are so many layers of the onion that you're missing it's almost a disservice to the author to not attempt to appreciate the material fully.  I don't look for mistakes specifically, but any incongruity used to mean something.  Why is this odd thing mentioned specifically?  Why is this other thing not mentioned?  Why did they say what they said a certain way?  etc.  I, and some others I'm sure, cannot simply turn it off and say 'la la la look at the pretty colors', although a first read through is sometimes something like that.  To give the series its proper due, it should be dissected to appreciate as many layers as possible.  Mistakes in the last few books have unfortunately been found this way, not by going out of the way to find mistakes, but in trying to appreciate the intricate plot RJ had planned out.  When the mistakes become apparent, it hints that what's on the page isn't what RJ intended to happen, and that's not something I want to see.  RJ was the king of foreshadowing, and there's literally nothing that hinted at this happening, and a quote that suggests it wouldn't.  If this mistake of Elayne being able to channel without trouble all the time before she gives birth when it's been said that wouldn't happen by a character that's an expert on such things figures into a major plot point as it's likely to, it's a blemish on the series' integrity as I see it. 

 

It's that butterfly effect, as TGS really didn't have a lot of obvious things like this by itself.  But one thing in particular, the Twisted Ring Ter'angreal that Team Jordan forgot was with Aviendha (not with Elayne, not with Siuan), seemed small at first, but then eventually led into the big T'a'R battle in ToM that was impossible no matter how many band-aids they tried to patch it with in later editions, because a plot based on a small mistake blows up into one or more big ones.  I can see other examples of small-looking things that don't make a lot of sense becoming stuff major things hinge on later on, and it's frightening to me and those of us that care about the details RJ did.

 

I find the "ooo pretty colors" description insulting. For me, I've just been managing my expectations. The man at the helm of this titanic of a boat is gone while the ships in the middle of a storm. From among the crew, someone else who doesn't know the ins-and-outs of the boat like the original helmsman is at the wheel trying to drive the ship into port. I'm not saying that just getting into port is all I'm asking for, I expect more, but at the same time I expect the ship to take some scrapes on the way in.

 

And ultimately, Brandon's required to invent and devise plots on his own -- things that RJ never intended -- because on many plotlines RJ never got around to stating his intent. In many cases, RJ may only have listed a goal, or some potential ideas, and it was up to Brandon to devise how that would happen.

 

". . . it hints that what's on the page isn't what RJ intended to happen, and that's not something I want to see. "

 

I, for one, don't want to see Sanderson taking a hacksaw to Jordan's outlines. Nor do I think he has. In some places those outlines are non-existent. There was no intent. RJ may have solved the problem differently, but that statement I just quoted is just the wrong way of looking at it, because the only solution to that is that the books shouldn't have been written.

 

The linking issue, the dream rings. There were continuity errors there. They make specific details implausible. I have to disagree with the idea that these issues get in the way of the overall plot. If Brandon had been aware of the dream ring issues to start, it's not like it would have completely changed the outline, he'd just have been able to take them into account and still have that massive battle in T'A'R happen anyway. The same things goes for Pevara and Androl. RJ may have included only a couple of sentences on how he thought the BT plot should be resolved, maybe a couple thoughts on general conflicts or ideas that come up, but maybe nothing specific other than "This must be resolved." The Mesanna plot line may have been a vague outline that led up to that climatic battle, but Jordan wouldn't have noted every step leading up to it.

 

Sorry, the intent line stood out to me. That's a sentiment I just find to be unrealistic and unhelpful, unless you think Brandon's mutilating the notes Jordan left him as a guide. Everything I know about Brandon and Jordan's notes is that Brandon's shown them the utmost respect, going so far as to be wary about tampering with some of Jordan's written scenes even when they may have been in need of revising and polishing themselves -- another choice that's also received a lot of criticism.

 

I don't feel like I'm being happy just to get the ending, but there is the other extreme which that quote hints at (and if you want to say I'm grasping at generalizations I've seen plenty of those generalizations thrown at me and others -- you did so in that post, and it's just as inaccurate) which won't be satisfied for anything less than Jordan having penned every word.

 

PS

 

"If this mistake of Elayne being able to channel without trouble all the time before she gives birth when it's been said that wouldn't happen by a character that's an expert on such things"

 

Technically, it was never said that it wouldn't happen.

[Sid]

I'm not saying anyone's mutilating his notes, and I'm not saying I'd have no satisfaction with it unless RJ penned every word.  But in filling the gaps in the notes, it's extremely important to fact-check things.  This is where the intent thing comes in.  I'd love to think that what we got is just how RJ would have wanted things to progress, but textual evidence disproves it.  Because of this, there are seeds of doubt that take root, and the story is partially ruined by those nagging suspicions.  I'd have a fairly high level of satisfaction if everything that happened after KoD didn't throw stuff RJ wrote before out the window, even with the other issues the recent books have.  Even so there is still some satisfaction.

 

@PS

OK, technically she didn't say it wouldn't happen, but she's giving Elayne the rundown on what to expect.  Why tell her things that won't happen?  She says some things will happen, and some things may happen.  Not included in either category is what apparently did happen, and Elayne acts as if she was expecting it to happen, which she had no reason to from any chapter I've read. 

[ArveduiEreinion]

I've said this a number of times but look Team Jordan admitted the problems with ToM, they changed Brandon's writing process to add more "polish" to his prose and they asked for more time because they have to get AMoL "right". I have faith in their work and I have faith in Brandon as an author. Peter has gone on record here saying how hard Brandon has worked on this last book and how proud of the result he is.  I think we do have a home run coming our way...after making a point to convey all those changes post the ToM mess and going on record about the amount of effort Brandon put in it has to be awesome. I'm putting my trust in Team Jordan.

 

Sorry Sutt, but I have to disagree. I can't imagine that BS' prose will get any better even with greater "polishing." Certainly his creative (and not so creative) stamp will be on full display (again, I liked Aviendha's future vision while hating nonsense like Dreadbanes.) Perhaps there will be less continuity/content errors but so far even the brief snippets we received indicate otherwise. 

 

That being said, I agree with the original point of your post. Why do people insist that critical thought is somehow antithetic to enjoyment of this last book? I want to know how the series ends. I want to know what RJ had in mind all those years ago. Regardless of how AMoL works out, the Wheel of Time will always have a special place in my life. That doesn't mean I'm oblivious to flaws in the writing, mistakes in editing, or ill-conceived plot structure. That goes for RJ and it certainly goes for BS too. 

[Suttree]

That being said, I agree with the original point of your post. Why do people insist that critical thought is somehow antithetic to enjoyment of this last book? I want to know how the series ends. I want to know what RJ had in mind all those years ago. Regardless of how AMoL works out, the Wheel of Time will always have a special place in my life. That doesn't mean I'm oblivious to flaws in the writing, mistakes in editing, or ill-conceived plot structure. That goes for RJ and it certainly goes for BS too. 

Very well said. +1

[Moth]

Perrin sequences were good.  Rand wasn't jarring in ToM, because he was like a completely new character, likable even with the high-pitched sissy voice in my head. But Sanderson destroyed the Seanchan,  Mat, Tuon, and every other female character in the book, with the exception of Egwene and Verin,in the Gathering Storm.  I haven't enjoyed Egwene in a long time, but if she were getting beaten for the entire 800 pages, I would have loved it even more!  Sadly, she's nearly as annoying and stupid as all the other female characters in ToM.  And the language..."burn it," bloody ashes," modern language that doesn't fit in Jordan's world... Some of the battle scenes were funny to me.  Usually, Sanderson wouldn't bother trying to mimic Jordan's style, thankfully, but every now and then you see something like "heron its on a tree stump makes his head fall off," and you have to laugh.  I'm sure the final book will be great.  How could it not with all kinds of happy reunions and meetings, and then a whole bunch of fireworks with Fain killing the Dark One, and I will buy it and enjoy it from the very first page when wind is blowing all over stuff.

 

 I do think it is absurd that some think BS and his writing is above criticism,  when it BEGS to be criticized, or that people are antagonistic or ungrateful unhappy people, or don't enjoy the books because they criticize the great Brandon Sanderson.

[Agitel]

I had forgotten that Elayne's ToM appearances in Egwene's chapters take place post-VoG even while her own chapters are behind that event. Headaches, headaches.

 

Do we know why the cloud cover broke over Caemlyn during Mat's first chapter of ToM? It does the same for Perrin later when he goes to Galad's rescue.

[Drakkon]

Perrin sequences were good.  Rand wasn't jarring in ToM, because he was like a completely new character, likable even with the high-pitched sissy voice in my head. But Sanderson destroyed the Seanchan,  Mat, Tuon, and every other female character in the book, with the exception of Egwene and Verin,in the Gathering Storm.  I haven't enjoyed Egwene in a long time, but if she were getting beaten for the entire 800 pages, I would have loved it even more!  Sadly, she's nearly as annoying and stupid as all the other female characters in ToM.

 

I found most of Jordan's female characters very poorly done with a few exceptions.  Egwene in my opinion has always been an awful character and I feel the same about Elayne.  Nyn I don't start to like until she hooks up with Lan.  Brandon does a better job with the female characters in general, but some of them are still awful.  

[Viperswhip]

I just went to TOR for this weeks Buffy recap, yep I am a geek, and have seen TWO Brandon Sanderson posts about stuff coming out this year (at lease one thing). AMoL better be good lol, because BS was definitely moonlighting. I know he is prodigious and wrote other books during his span on the WoT, but wow.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Actually he wrote THE RITHMTIST way back before Alcatraz 4 and TGS, and he wrote a quarter of STEELHEART years ago and finished the rest before he started writing THE ALLOY OF LAW.