Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[The Fisher King]

With Moiraine, it was one of the very first times ever Rand had used Balefire. You are always more severe when punishing actions that have been repeated and repeated. Also, at these stages in the series. Moiraine had the type of relationship with Rand that she COULD get him to consider her instructions without more extreme means being necessary. With Cadsuane, it was deemed necessary. Now, we can debate whether or not it WAS necessary, but Cadsuane FELT it was - and that is the whole point. She did what she felt was necessary. Again, nowhere have I seen it argued that Cadsuane can not potentially BE bullying in her behaviour - the argument by some of us has been that it is never arbitrary and is only when she feels it in a necessary last resort. I personally have listed several examples of this claim. Using the Power on Tam was in no way *necessary* and that, imo, is the crux of the whole matter.

 

 

As always, JMHO.

 

 

Fish

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2716419" data-time="1356309236"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Temujim" data-cid="2716386" data-time="1356307175"><p>@suttree<br />

<br />

see the different reactions in rand between moiraine's warning against balefile in FoH vs Cadsuane's slap. Moiraine without physical violence made Rand reconsider his position re: balefire. Did Cadsuane?<br />

<br />

Maybe Rand was being a fool or maybe not... in any case slapping a fool almost never works.</p></blockquote>

Did you even read the rest of my post or the link I included? It is just one of the many tools she uses and that situation wasn't exactly one in which they could calmly discuss things. As an aside Moiraine didn't get him to stop using it so it's rather beside the point. Cadsuane has an incredible track record of success and she is trying to help Rand. She literally swore to do what was best for him not herself or the WT.<br />

<br />

A bully is someone who is habitually cruel to smaller or weaker people. With Cads with see the exact opposite in her dealings with Sorilea, Daigian and Samitsu. We see her deeply regret the need to bully someone in WH. All I'm asking is you look at her motivations and the reality of her actions throughout series.</p></blockquote>

 

Lol. That link is ridiculous Suttree. If gives an excellent analysis of a character but it is based off of a persons interpretation of excerpts of books and notes. Not everyone agrees with it and it isn't because they are less informed with the books either. It is because the analysis is an opinion.

 

I do agree with opinions in that post BTW. I just happened to have those opinions myself before I ever read it.

[Suttree]

Linda's work at 13th depository is ridiculous? What are you on about? Of course it's a fan site, why would anyone think differently? It's just one analysis but the poster I was responding to seemed to not understand Cads' motivations in the slightest so I was linking him a well sourced piece on her character with plenty of quotes from the text so he could decide for himself. Making this statement:

 

How many times did Cadsuane slap Rand?  Seems the behaviour of a bully.

Certainly doesn't indicate a great familiarity with the character.

 

Regardless as you should know not all opinions are equal and certain opinions can be dead wrong. Anyone is free to offer one, but if they can not support it with evidence it certainly isn't worth all that much. One has to show how they reached said opinion. Saying for instance Cads is a bully because she slapped Rand twice doesn't hold all that much weight unless you can also go back and show she is a bully through her motivations and textual evidence. To suggest otherwise is absurd.

 

Now viewing the evidence in Linda's link if you find something you disagree with feel free to discuss it. Let's please just stick to the topic however.  It is specifically these types of posts that derail threads into pointless side bars.

[skalors3]

I find the use of that link as ridicilous. More specifically your reaction of "did you even read the link " when a persons opinion doesn't change.

 

Secondly, I don't think that analysis lines up with Jordan's notes as neatly as you make it sound. Also, it takes a lot for granted such as Cadsuanes ability to endure what she must endure. You fail to acknowledge the possibility of what she will do when she is dealing with someone who she does not need to tolerate.

 

It also ignores her "and more " note when it discusses tactics she would use. That is naming 2 things without even thinking about it.

 

It is a great article, but it is opinion based and its goal was to paint Cadsuanes personality to be in line with the authors view of Cadsuane.

 

As a side note, just because I believe an analysis holds truth doesn't mean that it should be used as fact on an argument. Nor should it be held to be true just because I believe it.

 

You have countered many of my arguments through use of that link and the opinions held within. I find that silly. At the end of the day I have also provided you literary proof that paints Cadsuane differently, you disagreed and then directed me back to that analysis. That is why opinions exist, so others can disagree.

[Suttree]

As yoniy0 said earlier in thread at this point you are consistently twisting posters meanings and intentions around. That has become readily apparent over the last number of pages. I never stated it as fact and I made clear in my post what my intention was in providing it. If you can provide a link which has an equal number of quotes handy and charts her character arc as that does, fell free to provide it as an alternative. All it was ever meant to be is a quick reminder of what she has been up to for someone who didn't seem clear on her motivations. It was never meant to counter anything as should be very clear if you follow the replies. 

 

Bottom line when opinions are  are not backed up, or even worse people use pieces of the text(as has happened in this thread) that have no relation to what they are trying to show it doesn't help all that much. Again to say all opinions are equal is ridiculous. One must be able to show how and why they reached their conclusions. Thank you for the debate but I am finished discussing it with you. All good, we just keep coming back to the same place, just saying I'm moving on.

[Agitel]

Just some more thoughts on my TOWERS reread. There has been some well-written chapters in this novel. There's been some awkward moments, mind, which I guess makes for some inconsistency. Mat's initial chapters have too much overt train-of-thought character bias in them, if that makes sense. It makes for choppy reading. Then there's also Mat chapters that are fairly well off, and I'm pretty sure they've been written by Brandon, given the way he phrases sentences and other things. It's been more good than bad, but the awkwardness of that minority still makes me wince at times. It's nice to do a reread, because I feel like in all these discussions and having let time pass I sell him a bit short on that front. Still, a minority of inconsistent chapters can create a sour experience anyway.

 

I like the parallels between the Gawyn-Egwene and the Birgitte-Elayne arcs. As noted earlier, Perrin's conflicts parallel both Rand and Egwene's arcs (learning to accept himself with Rand, and his leadership issues with Egwene). It's a shame his arc couldn't have been included in GATHERING.  One day, I'd like to read the chapters of this ending trilogy in (mostly) chronological order.

[The Fisher King]

All of ''Seven-Striped Lass'' was written by Brandon.

 

All of the last few Mat chapters in the TOG were written by RJ.

 

All of the ''Mat-Elayne/Perrin Interaction'' stuff was mostly Brandon.

 

I would LOVE to know who wrote most of Mat's parts BETWEEN ''A Seven-Striped Lass'' and him metting up with Elayne and Perrin.

 

I would REALLY LOVE to  know who wrote most of the duel with the Gholam. I suspect it was Brandon.

 

Brandon made it sound like a lot of Mat in ADDITION to the TOG stuff was Jordan, so, after the stuff I know for sure it is hard to know the rest.

 

I know that I liked Mat's first chapter (''A Seven-Striped Lass'') and felt like Mat was more himself in that chapter though I understood why some felt the ''looking at women for his friends thing'' got old fast. It didn't bother me that much. ''A Seven-Striped Lass'' was the very first pre-release sample chapter that was posted for TOM. It was personally selected by Brandon because he felt proud of his writing of Mat in that chapter and, for the most part - and especially after TGS - I heartily agreed with him.

 

I loved the Gholam duel. While the TOG sequence was a bit...anticlimactic...feeling, it was still very good.

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

All of ''Seven-Striped Lass'' was written by Brandon.

 

All of the last few Mat chapters in the TOG were written by RJ.

 

All of the ''Mat-Elayne/Perrin Interaction'' stuff was mostly Brandon.

 

I would LOVE to know who wrote most of Mat's parts BETWEEN ''A Seven-Striped Lass'' and him metting up with Elayne and Perrin.

 

I would REALLY LOVE to  know who wrote most of the duel with the Gholam. I suspect it was Brandon.

 

Brandon made it sound like a lot of Mat in ADDITION to the TOG stuff was Jordan, so, after the stuff I know for sure it is hard to know the rest.

 

I know that I liked Mat's first chapter (''A Seven-Striped Lass'') and felt like Mat was more himself in that chapter though I understood why some felt the ''looking at women for his friends thing'' got old fast. It didn't bother me that much. ''A Seven-Striped Lass'' was the very first pre-release sample chapter that was posted for TOM. It was personally selected by Brandon because he felt proud of his writing of Mat in that chapter and, for the most part - and especially after TGS - I heartily agreed with him.

 

I loved the Gholam duel. While the TOG sequence was a bit...anticlimactic...feeling, it was still very good.

 

 

Fish

 

Interesting. I'm just up to Mat's Elayne and Birgitte's meetings. I was okay with Mat eyeing other women for his friends, and I think it was a big step up from tGS, but I felt that "A Seven-Striped Lass" came off a little too strongly. But we all have our own preferences. Some of the middle-Mat chapters may have been outlined to some degree by Jordan (maybe only very vaguely), but written by Brandon. I'm guessing that "A Seven-Striped Lass" was him entirely, and was part of why he wanted to show it off. I don't want to diminish Brandon's writing in those chapters by saying that, but just a thought.

 

And another note. I know that "Bloody ashes" wasn't slowly integrated; it just started popping up. There are still frequent uses of "blood and ashes" and "blood and bloody ashes," though. I was never that offended to begin with, but on this reread it's more of an addition than a change. Perhaps unnecessary this late in the game. *shrugs*

 

The gholam duel seemed a bit sudden for me. I felt like the gholam hadn't been effective enough. I expected someone incredibly close to Mat to die (again). Or perhaps for a great many new deaths that haunted Mat over the first half of the book. Even if Lopin was that dear to Mat, I didn't really feel like I felt Mat's pain. I felt an epiphany moment was lacking. The words are there, I guess, but I just don't feel it.

 

On another note. Has anybody else who has read The Way of Kings noted the parallels between Perrin and Dalinar? Mostly in how they physicially work to get through problems. They have similar epiphany scenes in WAY and TOWERS.

[Sid]

All of the last few Mat chapters in the TOG were written by RJ.

Not all.  Some.  More RJ than just about everything else, but certainly not all, and the stuff that was certainly hadn't gone through many drafts, if more than one.

I'd wager that anything Mat other than Ghenjei was just outlines or a sentence here or there at most.

[The Fisher King]

Well. I'm just going by statements released over the years by either BS or TJ and they have said the Tower of Ghenji sequence (what I call "the last few Mat chapters in TOM) were almost all RJ. Brandon has also publicly said "Seven-Striped Lass" was all him. The rest is harder to "confirm" though I feel very sure about my guesses. I have a long list of confirmed "Who Wrote What" for the last three books that some OCD Detective work the past 2 years has gotten me. Ive never posted it out of respect to DM and Brandon/TJ but I'm glad I have it and don't mind when it comes up in conversation like this.

 

Yes, I agree that ''Seven-Striped Lass'' was almost TOO ''Mat'' (As Brandon was obviously trying to say: ''See?? I CAN write Mat!''), it was still a welcome return to many familiar elements of Mat that was sorely needed after TGS.

 

The ''Bloody Ashes'' thing bothered me hugely on a number of levels - not just how jarring it was to be reading all of a sudden, but, also, how, after all his talk about being sooo reverential and respectful of how Jordan had developed his world, Brandon just decides that HE wants some of the language to start evolving and changes one of the main characters favorite expressions in the last book(s) lol!!! ... It was very weird.


Fish

[yoniy0]

Sid is right. You have to realize that when something is said to be RJ's in these books, it's not like anything of his in his own books. It's still drafts, at places might require entire paragraphs to be added, and at other places I fear Harriet allowed unpolished material to remain just because they didn't want to mess with RJ's writing.

 

Either way, Brandon's touch is very clear in the ToG sequence. Perhaps contrary to popular belief, it's not very difficult to identify the seam lines in TGS and ToM (Jason has admitted a similar opinion, and he should know). That's not to say that I think assimilation is a worthy goal in and of itself, mind.

[Temujim]

@ sutree

 

Oh I read the link.  Unpersuasive, as skalors outlines in his posts above.  Cadsuane did her homework and knows that Rand will not strike back against a woman.  So she can slap him without fear apparently.  Doesn't matter that Rand is physically stronger as well as in the power.  It showed an enormous amount of restraint on his part not to return the favor.

 

In any case, I find attempts to bully, or if you wish manipulate, a man going mad laughable.  People that are mad or insane or on the borderline can be set off with an ill-timed whisper (I have worked with them - it is scary).  The fruits of that are seen in TGS.  The whole sequence of how the situation they constructed blew up in their face seemed quite believable, and therefore Cadsuane and Tam's reaction.

[yoniy0]

Guys, at least get the facts right. Cadsuane risked Rand's anger because she knew something that he didn't: that he can't channel at her (which includes shielding her). By the time he would've realized what's what, I bet she could've made herself scarce.

 

Secondly, taking us back one page, Moriaine didn't get Rand to reconsider using BF by talking sense to him; she took an oath of obedience. Shall we take a mental list of how things would have turned out if Cadsuane were bound by such an oath since Cairhien? Also, said reconsideration ended up yielding no fruit.

[Sarlic]

 Yes, I agree that ''Seven-Striped Lass'' was almost TOO ''Mat'' (As Brandon was obviously trying to say: ''See?? I CAN write Mat!''), it was still a welcome return to many familiar elements of Mat that was sorely needed after TGS.

 

I'm not sure I understand this particular criticism. When I first heard a different author was going to complete the series, I expected there to be some inconsistencies. The first, *really* jarring example of this was Mat's first POV in tGS - at lesst for me. Pulled me right out of the narrative - made me a little sad, because I knew that we'd never get the Mat RJ created fully again - but my excitement to finish the story outweighed my initial dislike and, as the story progressed through TOM, I found myself noticing problems less and less and Brandon really getting a better voice for people.

 

The most-oft discussed criticism of Brandon has been his writing of several of the characters, Mat being the standout. Now, we have a chapter that is "too Mat?" If RJ wrote the chapter, would it also have been "too Mat?"

 

I appreciate everyone's right to criticize Brandon, but - without further explanation - this comment strikes me as somewhat disingenuous - an unnecessary dig. How can Brandon get something "too right?" (That's how I read the "too Mat" comment; if I'm misinterpreting, just curious what the original intent behind the comment is.)

 

Happy holidays all! 15 days!!!

[Agitel]

 Yes, I agree that ''Seven-Striped Lass'' was almost TOO ''Mat'' (As Brandon was obviously trying to say: ''See?? I CAN write Mat!''), it was still a welcome return to many familiar elements of Mat that was sorely needed after TGS.

I'm not sure I understand this particular criticism. When I first heard a different author was going to complete the series, I expected there to be some inconsistencies. The first, *really* jarring example of this was Mat's first POV in tGS - at lesst for me. Pulled me right out of the narrative - made me a little sad, because I knew that we'd never get the Mat RJ created fully again - but my excitement to finish the story outweighed my initial dislike and, as the story progressed through TOM, I found myself noticing problems less and less and Brandon really getting a better voice for people.

 

The most-oft discussed criticism of Brandon has been his writing of several of the characters, Mat being the standout. Now, we have a chapter that is "too Mat?" If RJ wrote the chapter, would it also have been "too Mat?"

 

I agree a lot with the bolded. That's how my reread experience has been going. I wouldn't have used the phrase "too Mat" like Fish. In my opinion, it feels like Brandon was trying too hard in that chapter. It just felt too awkward. Later Mat chapters felt like they had settled down a little bit, that Brandon wasn't coming on too strong. "A Seven-Striped Lass" was like over-sweetened coffee to me. A lot of the early chapters seem to do that, even the Perrin ones, a character he often gets praised for.

 

And I defend Brandon on a lot of things. The writing settles into a nice groove as you get into the book.

[Selene's Shadow]

I agree in general that as TOM progressed the POVs seemed to be much more authentic and true to the story. But the dialogue at time in my opinions was still very poor in some cases. Especially with Mat. The Towers of Ghenjei chapter was superbly done though and was for me a portrayal of what Robert Jordan always wanted from Mat, likewise the Gholam scene, so I would not be surprised if at least the TOG chapter was written by Jordan. 

 

To me Brandon is a very talented writer but he lacks the subtly and strokes of genius which made Jordan so good. His attempts to write casual dialogue also generally come across as rather pitiful.

[Suttree]

Guys, at least get the facts right. Cadsuane risked Rand's anger because she knew something that he didn't: that he can't channel at her (which includes shielding her). By the time he would've realized what's what, I bet she could've made herself scarce. Secondly, taking us back one page, Moriaine didn't get Rand to reconsider using BF by talking sense to him; she took an oath of obedience. Shall we take a mental list of how things would have turned out if Cadsuane were bound by such an oath since Cairhien? Also, said reconsideration ended up yielding no fruit.

Indeed. Not to mention Rand's view towards AS had been totally ruined at this point. Cadsuane knew this and had to get creative. If she had approached him with platitudes or took Moirain'es path it would have been an absolute disaster.

 

@Temu

Attempting to show Cadsuane as a bully because of those two slapping instances doesn't fit in the slightest. I'm willing to listen to you if you make a comprehensive case but citing those two scenes as proof of her being a "bully" really shows a flawed understanding. Also regardless of what you think is laughable or "blew up" it was Cads work & mission that led to Rand's epiphany(even though it did take a lucky turn at the end). Rand credits her himself.

[Agitel]

At some point in this topic or another, I read complaints that Elayne's difficulties with channeling while pregnant were pretty much thrown out the window during her chapters. That's not the case, and it's brought up frequently in her ToM chapters. She's commented that as the pregnancy progresses her ability to embrace the source has gotten better. It seems like she's able to always manage to embrace the source eventually now, sometimes it just takes multiple attempts. That comes up a lot when she's thinking about making the foxhead medallion copies.

[fionwe1987]

At some point in this topic or another, I read complaints that Elayne's difficulties with channeling while pregnant were pretty much thrown out the window during her chapters. That's not the case, and it's brought up frequently in her ToM chapters. She's commented that as the pregnancy progresses her ability to embrace the source has gotten better. It seems like she's able to always manage to embrace the source eventually now, sometimes it just takes multiple attempts. That comes up a lot when she's thinking about making the foxhead medallion copies.

This still goes against what she was told, that it would get worse as time progressed, and that during labor she wouldn't be able to channel at all (which I still think will be significant). 

 

As for Cadsuane: Anyone who thinks Cadsuane is a simple bully hasn't read the books. Or doesn't know what bully means. Here's the definition:

 

Bully:

1) a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

 

Cadsuane doesn't bluster, and she doesn't try to intimidate weaker people. She does the exact opposite. She's always calm and dignified, and she never goes for the weaker people. She slaps down those in power when they overreach. 

[Agitel]

At some point in this topic or another, I read complaints that Elayne's difficulties with channeling while pregnant were pretty much thrown out the window during her chapters. That's not the case, and it's brought up frequently in her ToM chapters. She's commented that as the pregnancy progresses her ability to embrace the source has gotten better. It seems like she's able to always manage to embrace the source eventually now, sometimes it just takes multiple attempts. That comes up a lot when she's thinking about making the foxhead medallion copies.

This still goes against what she was told, that it would get worse as time progressed, and that during labor she wouldn't be able to channel at all (which I still think will be significant). 

 

As for Cadsuane: Anyone who thinks Cadsuane is a simple bully hasn't read the books. Or doesn't know what bully means. Here's the definition:

 

 

Bully:

1) a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

 

 

Cadsuane doesn't bluster, and she doesn't try to intimidate weaker people. She does the exact opposite. She's always calm and dignified, and she never goes for the weaker people. She slaps down those in power when they overreach. 

 

 

To be fair, anyone who's not Cads is pretty much weaker than her (and not just in the OP) by default. 

 

I kid, I kid.

 

I believe you, but I've wanted to reread the section where Elayne is told about channeling and pregnancy myself. Do you know where it is?

 

EDIT: Ah, ideal seek is wonderful.

 

EDIT 2: Ideal Seek let me know the book, and now I've found the rest.

 

Crossroads of Twilight - Chapter 14

 

Sumeko made an urgent sound in her throat, gesturing toward Elayne, and Monaelle nodded. "Do exactly as I did, and you will see." Watching Sumeko embrace the Source and form the weave, she nodded again, and the round Kinswoman let it sink into Elayne, letting out a gasp as if she felt the humming herself. "You will not have to worry about birthing sickness," Monaelle went on, "but you will find that you have difficulty in channeling sometimes. The threads may slip away from you as though greased or fade like mist, so you will have to try again and again to make the simplest weave or hold it. This may grow worse as your pregnancy progresses, and you will not be able to channel at all while in labor or giving birth, but it will come right after the children are born. You soon will become moody, too, if that has not already started, weepy one minute and snarling the next. The father of your child will be wise to step warily and keep his distance as much as he can."

 

The statement there isn't 100% affirmative. That 'may' leaves some wiggle room.

[David Selig]

At some point in this topic or another, I read complaints that Elayne's difficulties with channeling while pregnant were pretty much thrown out the window during her chapters. That's not the case, and it's brought up frequently in her ToM chapters. She's commented that as the pregnancy progresses her ability to embrace the source has gotten better. It seems like she's able to always manage to embrace the source eventually now, sometimes it just takes multiple attempts. That comes up a lot when she's thinking about making the foxhead medallion copies.

Not always, she failed to do it when she was supposed to join Egwene and the WO in fighting Mesaana in TAR. Convenient timing as far as the plot is concerned as usual. ;)

 

I believe you, but I've wanted to reread the section where Elayne is told about channeling and pregnancy myself.

Here is the full passage:

 

“You will not have to worry about birthing sickness,” Monaelle went on, “but you will find that you have difficulty in channeling sometimes. The threads may slip away from you as though greased or fade like mist, so you will have to try again and again to make the simplest weave or hold it. This may grow worse as your pregnancy progresses, and you will not be able to channel at all while in labor or giving birth, but it will come right after the children are born. "

[skalors3]

@Fionwe I would say that anyone who is unable to channel is smaller and weaker. She goes after the high and low too. We have just seen her going after the high. Notes say otherwise.

[Suttree]

The notes say she has gone after the high more often than the low very clearly...

 

and more (especially when faced with what she considered stupidity), with high as often as low, or rather, more often. She also had a reputation for not caring whether she dented somebody's pride, if she thought it necessary.

They also make it clear it's for the betterment of the individual or to stop something like a war from happening. Again we have direct proof that she regrets having to bully someone, she takes zero enjoyment from it and always has a specific reason. Such as when she turned Myriam into a strong Amyrlin...

 

It wasn't; it was the method Cadsuane used to turn Myriam Copan from a weak Amyrlin to a strong one in 758 NE

Add to that the fact that the men who could channel that she stilled lived a longer life than any and she never had to kill one in capturing them. They all made better than normal adjustments back into life. She has been shown to help people that she despised even when it was the right thing to do. Throughout the text we see her use various methods with people like Sorilea, Verin, Dobraine, Daigan, and Samitsu so people can toss that "well everyone is weaker" out the window because it would then follow all she would ever do is bully if she actually was one. No...it doesn't fit in the slightest.

[Sid]

The thing is with Elayne's pregnancy is that the woman said she will have problems (as she does), and they may get even worse as the pregnancy progresses, and not that they may get better.  Now Elayne says she's all better and has it under control before the pregnancy is over with. 

[Agitel]

The thing is with Elayne's pregnancy is that the woman said she will have problems (as she does), and they may get even worse as the pregnancy progresses, and not that they may get better.  Now Elayne says she's all better and has it under control before the pregnancy is over with. 

 

Elayne never says she's all better, nor does she act that way. As pointed out, she still frequently has trouble embracing the source. She often needs multiple attempts. There's still situations where she isn't able to at all. She simply told Egwene that things had improved somewhat. There's also such a thing as being too literal. I feel like this is a case of that. Not only is Monaelle's statement not conclusive, but we know that pregnancies vary from woman to woman, even in real life. Not all women get morning sickness. Some don't show that much. Elayne's symptoms mildly improving isn't breaking (or even bending) any established rules, either given in the text or the real world.