Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Peter Ahlstrom]

It's also easy to evade taking responsibility for the quality of a finished product, by blaming others when your shortcomings are naked, in the breeze.

It's rather difficult to do that, actually. Unless you're being sarcastic.

 

It'll all be naked in the breeze in one month. :)

 

[EDIT: And with that, I'm taking a break from the forums, because I've been acting like a reactionary idiot on a hair trigger.]

[Suttree]

It's easy to cherry-pick quotes...

 

The problems with the excerpt from sleeping above go deeper than what you try to shrug off Peter and it's not as if it's difficult to pull many others that fit the bill. Regardless portions of TGS & ToM  read like rough drafts, it is one of the most common complaints you see raised.

 

Also if you want to see a very solid critique on the topic of dialog look at Fionwe's post in this thread I copied it here...

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/76523-thisguys-topic-on-brandons-work/?p=2685592

[Agitel]

Post deleted. No longer necessary nor was its point as clear as it should have been.

[Suttree]

 

 

It's easy to cherry-pick quotes...

 

You can't be serious. The problems with the excerpt from sleeping above go deeper than what you try to shrug off Peter and it's not as if it's difficult to pull many others that fit the bill. Regardless portions of TGS & ToM  read like rough drafts, it is one of the most common complaints you see raised.

 

Um... his post compared the initial conversation from AMoL to a number of ones from the Mistborn series. If anything, he was saying that dialog in AMoL isn't inferior to anything in Brandon's own books, and cherry-picked sections from Mistborn that had the same structure/style. And he was referring to sleepinghour's specific issues with that excerpt, as well.

 

But it is in large parts as you well know, and yes I know exactly what Peter was trying to say. The point being it's glossing over the issue at hand and I was stating he can't be serious trying to pull a couple similar quotes. At this point it is rather hilarious, even people like yourself who see the issues seem to be contrary simply for the sake of it.

[SamJ]

I thought for a while about posting on this thread and have finally decided to bite.

 

I feel like I should say first that, though I haven't posted here much before, I've been reading the boards and occasionally posting for a long time (way back with wotmania, then theoryland, tor and now dragonmount too). I've read these particular discussions with interest becuase it's fascinating to get a glimpse of the inside workings of the writing process and because I like to hear people's views on the last books. So I'm not posting to take any pot shots.

 

Myself, I've felt pretty down about the quality of Brandon's work in the last two books. I found them enjoyable on a first read, with some very good sections, but with an overall lack of some of the things I loved most about RJ's work. This is pretty much the same as how I feel about Brandon's own books – I'll read them once and enjoy them (except Elantris which was clearly a very early work!), but I'm not sure I'll ever reread as they lack depth of the type that interests me. To illustrate: Brandon clearly has great depth with world-building and magic systems, but he has less with character and very little with symbolism or metaphor, or anything mytho-poetic; and Brandon does great action sequences but flat dialogue and his prose style is noticably awkward at times. So for me, the issue isn't just his work on WOT.

 

I'm consistently bounced out of the books while I read them. Some of this is due to my awareness that it's Brandon writing rather than RJ – and I wonder how many people feel that? For example, Brandon uses anachronisms and I leap up, irritated – but I've noticed in my reread that RJ did too, yet they never got to me. Brandon names new characters and, because I know that they are fan names, I'm conscious again and outside the story. Brandon writes a character saying something I wouldn't expect (Avi for example), and I wonder if it was a mistake rather than a character developing. So, some of the issues are inside me as a reader. I think I'll try and be more forgiving of them as I read the last book. Characterisation, and the sense of dumming down that has happened to Mat, Tuon, Avi, Egwene, Cadsuane and Elayne, I find harder to forgive. I hate politics in most fantasy because it's done with all the subtlety of a teenager pontificating, so I'm sad to see this happen in WOT.

 

I respect the effort Brandon has made on WOT, and I think he's raised his game as writer. TOM felt weaker than TGS for me due to structure rather than any of the points above. It's disappointing that the sections of AMOL I've read retain the same issues, but I still have hopes for the last book. I'm grateful we'll get the ending and thankful for the effort Brandon has put into that.

[sleepinghour]

To illustrate: Brandon clearly has great depth with world-building and magic systems, but he has less with character and very little with symbolism or metaphor, or anything mytho-poetic; and Brandon does great action sequences but flat dialogue and his prose style is noticably awkward at times. So for me, the issue isn't just his work on WOT.

 

SamJ: Great post, there's only one thing I disagree with (the bolded part). I actually think Brandon is underrated on this point. People either miss his contributions or think they came from RJ. At least, I was personally surprised to learn that Brandon was the one who decided to give Perrin a leg injury in ToM since it's the sort of thing I expected to have come from RJ—a hint that Perrin's the cause of all the myths about lame blacksmith gods like Hephaestus. (It was also very fitting that all three ta'veren ended up maimed in some way.) Brandon took the time to do some research and add little details like that—Easter eggs for the mythology geeks and people who like to read more deeply into the series—even though not all readers notice them. I also get the impression Brandon isn't really into mythology himself, but spent some time reading up on these things so that he could continue planting references to various figures from mythology like RJ used to.

 

Another important theme in the books is how time is circular; the serpent bites its own tail. As we reach the story's ending, we return to the beginning (New Spring-TEotW) again. Around the same time as NS took place, the former Daughter-Heir of Andor died giving birth to Rand; currently, it's Elayne who is about to give birth to Rand's children. Nynaeve has succeeded in raising the Golden Crane, which Edeyn also tried to do in NS with disastrous results. NS ends with Lan burning his daori (the braid Edeyn used to control him with) right before Moiraine arrives and bonds him. It's probably no coincidence that Nynaeve's braid was burned off right before she went to collect Lan's bond. This felt like such a fitting parallel that I was once again surprised to learn that Brandon was the one who came up with Nynaeve's entire test for the shawl; it was not in RJ's notes. He added many other parallels and references in the test as well, to everything from Nynaeve's Accepted test to her fear of heights and spiders. And Egwene, who has always been Elaida's counterpart in the series, played a similar role at Nynaeve's test as Elaida did at Moiraine's, though for different reasons.

 

I think Brandon gets this aspect of the series—history constantly repeats itself with different players. He took some of the parallels RJ had already inserted and built upon them. Some people say that Brandon's books have little "rereadability" (and I agree the awkward prose/characterization issues sometimes makes that painful), but I still find it enjoyable to go back and take another look at the little details Brandon added to the series, because they are there if you look closely enough.

[The Fisher King]

I just wanted to add that I have - since Day One - and this can be checked by reading older post here...been praiseful of TGS.

 

I enjoyed The Gathering Storm very much. I have never regretted being praiseful of that book.

 

The only things that bugged me in that entire book were Cadsane's last scene, Mat's opening scene and his ''backstory binge.''

 

I really liked - for the most part - TGS. ... The wheels fell off for me in TOM.

 

 

Fish

[TootThatHorn]

 

To illustrate: Brandon clearly has great depth with world-building and magic systems, but he has less with character and very little with symbolism or metaphor, or anything mytho-poetic; and Brandon does great action sequences but flat dialogue and his prose style is noticably awkward at times. So for me, the issue isn't just his work on WOT.

 

SamJ: Great post, there's only one thing I disagree with (the bolded part). I actually think Brandon is underrated on this point. People either miss his contributions or think they came from RJ. At least, I was personally surprised to learn that Brandon was the one who decided to give Perrin a leg injury in ToM since it's the sort of thing I expected to have come from RJ—a hint that Perrin's the cause of all the myths about lame blacksmith gods like Hephaestus. (It was also very fitting that all three ta'veren ended up maimed in some way.) Brandon took the time to do some research and add little details like that—Easter eggs for the mythology geeks and people who like to read more deeply into the series—even though not all readers notice them. I also get the impression Brandon isn't really into mythology himself, but spent some time reading up on these things so that he could continue planting references to various figures from mythology like RJ used to.

 

Another important theme in the books is how time is circular; the serpent bites its own tail. As we reach the story's ending, we return to the beginning (New Spring-TEotW) again. Around the same time as NS took place, the former Daughter-Heir of Andor died giving birth to Rand; currently, it's Elayne who is about to give birth to Rand's children. Nynaeve has succeeded in raising the Golden Crane, which Edeyn also tried to do in NS with disastrous results. NS ends with Lan burning his daori (the braid Edeyn used to control him with) right before Moiraine arrives and bonds him. It's probably no coincidence that Nynaeve's braid was burned off right before she went to collect Lan's bond. This felt like such a fitting parallel that I was once again surprised to learn that Brandon was the one who came up with Nynaeve's entire test for the shawl; it was not in RJ's notes. He added many other parallels and references in the test as well, to everything from Nynaeve's Accepted test to her fear of heights and spiders. And Egwene, who has always been Elaida's counterpart in the series, played a similar role at Nynaeve's test as Elaida did at Moiraine's, though for different reasons.

 

I think Brandon gets this aspect of the series—history constantly repeats itself with different players. He took some of the parallels RJ had already inserted and built upon them. Some people say that Brandon's books have little "rereadability" (and I agree the awkward prose/characterization issues sometimes makes that painful), but I still find it enjoyable to go back and take another look at the little details Brandon added to the series, because they are there if you look closely enough.

 

This is the epitomy of the type of post I most wish to see.  Actual examples as to why your opinion of Brandon's writing is in high esteem.  Pleasure to have read.

[Suttree]

 

 

To illustrate: Brandon clearly has great depth with world-building and magic systems, but he has less with character and very little with symbolism or metaphor, or anything mytho-poetic; and Brandon does great action sequences but flat dialogue and his prose style is noticably awkward at times. So for me, the issue isn't just his work on WOT.

 

SamJ: Great post, there's only one thing I disagree with (the bolded part). I actually think Brandon is underrated on this point. People either miss his contributions or think they came from RJ. At least, I was personally surprised to learn that Brandon was the one who decided to give Perrin a leg injury in ToM since it's the sort of thing I expected to have come from RJ—a hint that Perrin's the cause of all the myths about lame blacksmith gods like Hephaestus. (It was also very fitting that all three ta'veren ended up maimed in some way.) Brandon took the time to do some research and add little details like that—Easter eggs for the mythology geeks and people who like to read more deeply into the series—even though not all readers notice them. I also get the impression Brandon isn't really into mythology himself, but spent some time reading up on these things so that he could continue planting references to various figures from mythology like RJ used to.

 

Another important theme in the books is how time is circular; the serpent bites its own tail. As we reach the story's ending, we return to the beginning (New Spring-TEotW) again. Around the same time as NS took place, the former Daughter-Heir of Andor died giving birth to Rand; currently, it's Elayne who is about to give birth to Rand's children. Nynaeve has succeeded in raising the Golden Crane, which Edeyn also tried to do in NS with disastrous results. NS ends with Lan burning his daori (the braid Edeyn used to control him with) right before Moiraine arrives and bonds him. It's probably no coincidence that Nynaeve's braid was burned off right before she went to collect Lan's bond. This felt like such a fitting parallel that I was once again surprised to learn that Brandon was the one who came up with Nynaeve's entire test for the shawl; it was not in RJ's notes. He added many other parallels and references in the test as well, to everything from Nynaeve's Accepted test to her fear of heights and spiders. And Egwene, who has always been Elaida's counterpart in the series, played a similar role at Nynaeve's test as Elaida did at Moiraine's, though for different reasons.

 

I think Brandon gets this aspect of the series—history constantly repeats itself with different players. He took some of the parallels RJ had already inserted and built upon them. Some people say that Brandon's books have little "rereadability" (and I agree the awkward prose/characterization issues sometimes makes that painful), but I still find it enjoyable to go back and take another look at the little details Brandon added to the series, because they are there if you look closely enough.

 

This is the epitomy of the type of post I most wish to see.  Actual examples as to why your opinion of Brandon's writing is in high esteem.  Pleasure to have read.

 

Point TAKEN!!! Heh Toot knows what I'm talking about...

 

Seriously well done sleeping, I can only wish that more people would go this route. You raise some solid points and this post was truly a pleasure to read. Hope it leads to a more open dialog all around.

[DaoineSidhe]

edit @sleepinghour:  HAHA I accidently attributed SamJ with this instead of sleepinghour originally..  Sorry, corrected.

 

+1

Interesting points all around.   The cyclical nature of the WoT series itself is one of the things I'm really looking forward to seeing in aMoL, and glad to see that Sanderson has that deeply in mind.  One of the greatest things about the WoT, in my mind, is that we probably got all the information we need on how the LB is going to be fought in the first three books, and I look forward to see what parallels Brandon will continue to build on from those early books. 

[yoniy0]

@spleepinghour, I'm surprised to have never considered some of these points. And I agree that there are scenes in ToM (and definitely TGS) which make a fine reread. It's important to remember sometimes not to throw the baby out with the water, so thanks for reminding us of that.

 

It seems probable that the reaction to ToM isn't based in a noticeable decline in technical quality, but rather the book's lack of focus, thematically. TGS was well-balanced, with Rand's and Egwene's arcs complementing each other at the same time they emphasized the differences (duality has always been a motif of tWoT); ToM didn't enjoy similar elements, and as a result felt a bit empty even as many plot lines were significantly advanced (I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt like they haven't been advanced quite as much as was desirable, likely for just that reason).

 

I'll also say that this could be the reason the excerpts read like they do to me. There's no overreaching theme to bind them together, and so the technical level is all we're left to judge (and quite frankly, there are obvious issues with that). Hopefully, that will change when we get to read the entire book. Although, if I might, I'd like to say that I don't understand why these parts were chosen, given that they were going to be read in this situation.

[SamJ]

@sleepinghour - thanks, very interesting points

 

@yoniy0 - I think you are on to something there.  I've had a little personal project of working out an order for TGS and TOM for my personal reread (e.g. listng the order in which to read scenes and chapters) and I've noticed that some of the TOM scenes mesh very well in terms of themes with those of TGS and TOM - e.g. Galad and Perrin's themes around leadership and cooperation also complement Egwene's TGS arc well.  They also make an interesting parallel/contrast with Rand's; so Perrin's decision to do things the right way, and Galad's realisation that there is more than one way to do right, are interesting alongside Rand's increasing darkness.  In the scene order I have devised to read (with lots of bits of paper sticking out of my copies!), the climax to TGS comes about 2/3rds of the way through.  This would make it the half-way point of the three last novels.  I can see why Team Jordan couldn't split it that way, and agree that TGS is coherant and powerful - but I really think TOM suffered from being all over the place.

[DaoineSidhe]

All credit must go to ArveduiEreinion for this post. I don't know if it will directly answer your call, but thought I'd give it a try, but thought this thread was the better place for this discussion. Before that, though, full disclosure: I am not a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson's writing in the Wheel of Time, IMO, they are the least of all the Wheel of Time books. That said, there are good points to be made in his favor, and if I don't necessarily agree with all of them, they are valid points to be made about his writing.

 

Why Brandon Sanderson's writing is some of the best writing in the Wheel of Time:

 

Pacing: Not so much in the actual pace of plot progression, because that would have happened under anyone who wrote the end of the series. This is the climax of the story, so of course the pace of the story is going to pick up. However, Brandon Sanderson switches between characters more often, and more quickly, than we typically saw in Robert Jordan's writing. By not spending a lot of time on one person, and flipping back and forth, you create higher tension as all the different plot threads within the book reach their climaxes at the same time. It does require the reader to be a bit more alert, as the reader jumps from POV to POV, instead of partially finishing a plot thread before switching POVs, as was Robert Jordan's tendency. But the payoff is that this creates multiple threads within a book that are all whirling around, unresolved, but building, creating a sense of chaos, urgency, and tension that really fits with what is going on overall within the story.

 

Rand Al'Thor: I have always thought that Robert Jordan did a pretty great job with Rand Al'Thor. The slow slip into madness, the pressures that he's had to go through, something that none of us can say we've gone through, and yet we still completely understand and identify with him (or at least I can). However, if Robert Jordan could be said to have a certain fault with Rand Al'Thor, it is that he possibly liked him too much. While it was obvious from fairly early on that the real Battle that was being waged in the Last Battle was the battle for Rand's “soul”, if you will, I never really worried that that fight was in doubt. Rand was going crazy, sure, but did you ever think the Shadow had a chance of convincing him to join their side? He continued to be inherently “good”, if a bit twisted, and maybe hard. However, in The Gathering Storm, for the first time, I actually wondered what was going to happen in this battle? Brandon Sanderson's more direct prose, and shorter, more curt dialogue coupled with Rand's *snapping* under the Domination Band, gave readers the first real glimpse into what a Rand as the “Shadow's Champion” would look like, and it worked.

 

Perrin Aybarra: Probably Brandon Sanderson's best written character, I think. Personally, I was never pulled out of “suspension of disbelief” when in his Voicing. Many here would agree that Robert Jordan seemingly got lost in Perrin's tale during the latter part of the series, and didn't quite know what to do with him. Brandon Sanderson's direct, and short prose also fits well with Perrin's character, as he has always had a very direct manner. Slow and thoughtful, but when he makes a decision, he doesn't beat around the bush either. The forging of Perrin's new Hammer (M'hanall'ear, or something close to that, can't remember at the moment) is a real high point in his writing. The stark contrast in the sparks, and darkness, metaphor of Perrin going through his own forging while at the same time being the personification of a Blacksmith's forge itself were all well done, and is by probably the best written passage of the two books, in my opinion. We all knew (and hoped, and sometimes wondered when) that Perrin would eventually grow as a character one of the three main protagonists of the story he was. Robert Jordan was seemingly so invested in Perrin as the reluctant “hero/leader”, he kind of forgot that even the reluctant hero still has to be that hero at some point. He did it well in tSR, and LoC to a lesser extent, but after that, he kind of goes into a malaise of leadership that he can't seem to get out of, can't seem to do anything. Brandon Sanderson took Perrin and made him a rightful member of the three ta'veren again.

 

Nynaeve: At the beginning of the series, Nynaeve's primary character conflict was whether she would be the “Wisdom” or “Aes Sedai”. But that's simplifying it. Nynaeve's block was that she could only channel while angry, something supposedly “impossible” to do. Nynaeve is the embodiment of passion, emotions (both positive and negative), something directly clashing with the idea of Aes Sedai. From the beginning, she's admitted that her goals aren't the good of the world (like Aes Sedai preach), but only the good of those Two Rivers boys and Egwene. She was the first to actually fall in love in the series. But once she joins the White Tower, for Robert Jordan, that conflict seemingly stops making any progress. You know its there, but no one really acknowledges it anymore. Brandon Sanderson's writing of Nynaeve's test for the shawl shows the reader just how different Aes Sedai and Nynaeve are. Robert Jordan allowed Nynaeve to grow in many ways, but left this primary character conflict alone for far too long. The imagery of the testing, along with its meta-meaning in showing the reader, and Nynaeve, to a certain extent, what she feels is important to her, is well done.  Brandon Sander is finally able to frame the conflict within Nynaeve to the point where both she and the reader understand why she is so special.  Being an Aes Sedai is something she identifies with, not who she is.

 

Just a few instances where I think there is a rational argument to made that Brandon Sanderson's writing was an improvement on Robert Jordan's.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree with Perrin. I believe that Perrin is Brandon's biggest strength. He seems to just understand Perrin on a personally emotional level - whereas RJ understood Perrin because he was the creator, but wasn't as "close" to the character as Brandon. 

 

Obviously, I still think that RJ's Perrin will always be the truer version - but that goes for all characters. They were RJ's creation, any other author would not be able to fully capture what the character was intended to be. 

 

However, I think that Brandon's understanding of Perrin - almost as a person, rather than a character - allowed him to write some of his best work in the WoT. 

[The Fisher King]

I also compliment about Brandon's Perrin but also keep in mind - in the very FRONT of your mind! - that Perrin also had the least amount of significant things left to do out of the Big 3.

 

 

Fish

[MarkDiLillo]

The only character that BS didn't butcher IMO is Perrin.  I liked the Perrin stuff a lot.

 

Upon closer examination though, RJ did write Perrin much better.  The problem was that story arc was pretty dull and Perrin's constant denial to lead really put people off.  When BS took over and finally gave people what they wanted it was such a relief that it's hard to criticize.  That being said, Brandons Perrin segments are an example of a new author writing the story arc and doing a good enough job with it that it still was great to read.  I wish he nailed all of the other parts like he nailed Perrin.

[The Fisher King]

Id like your thoughts on Brandon's version of Nynaeve, Min and Morgase, please.

 

 

 

Fish

[MarkDiLillo]

I think he did fine with Morgase and Min for the most part.  At least he did good enough that they didnt bother me at all.  Then again, I consider both of those characters minor and dont particularly pay attention to them.  Min serves little purpose as an actual character in the series - she is more so just used as a device to observe and define Rand and some others without RJ having to write from their PoV.  So basically...when you're reading Min you are actually reading Rand.  As for Morgase...I am actually totally confused why she ever became a character that received anything more than a few pages of screen time.

 

I think Nynaeve is one of the greatest characters in the whole series and BS wrecked her in the same fashion as he wrecked Mat.  When I go back and reread Nynaeve she literally has me laughing out loud with some of her thoughts and the subtle humor RJ would sneak in there.  All of that is gone now and replaced with a hollow shell of a character...much like most of the characters with Perrin/Talmanes/Mat as exceptions.

 

The one thing about Mat I will give BS credit for - the character at least has some life to him.  He isnt the Mat we all knew and loved, but he actually is a character.  Rand, his girls, and so many other characters just come across as flat to me.  Brandons writing seems to be very event-driven whereas RJ's writing was more character driven.  This showcases the difference in talent or skill between RJ and BS.  Brandon writes events and the entire scene is written to support those events and show them occuring.  Jordan would write about the characters and show the event happening to the characters.  You will notice that Brandon is not incapable of doing this either - sometimes he does a decent job, but it is very hit or miss.  Typically, when the "event" has to do with an actual character and the character is not just experiencing it then Brandon will do an OK job of it.  Take Rand's moment on Dragonmount.  I'm pretty sure Brandon wrote this section, and because the actual event had to do with Rand himself it was well done IMO.  Now take a look at Rand walking into the White Tower.  That was one of the biggest let down scenes so far in the entire series.  Why?  Because Brandon wrote it with the "event" being the focus rather than Rand and Egwene being the ones experiencing the event.  Rand and Egwene were robots that spouted out their lines to make sure the event was finished.  It was like they were bad actors in a made for TV movie.

 

Note:  I try not to overly criticize the differences like this because a good part of them is simply that RJ was a significantly more talented author than BS.  A decent amount of this could have been corrected and Brandon could have done a better job I feel, but for the most part he's just nowhere near experienced enough to be able to write on the same level and that's why Brandon's writing comes off to me as if I'm watching a movie and have a popcorn in my hand while Jordan's writing comes off to me as if I actually am standing next to Rand and it's happening in front of me.

[The Fisher King]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I asked because I have actually been impressed with Nynaeve's treatment while I feel like Morgase was pretty much destroyed....shows how opinions can differ. :-)

 

I felt Min is fine - same old Min.

 

I aree with you that just TECHNICALLY -speaking Rigney was a far superior author and I feel very underrated in that regard. Yes, RJ was more character - driven and I also agree that some of those characters had begun to come off a bit flat late in the series. But they were such RICH characters.

 

Also. I cant remember where or when or link to it, but yes. Brandon himself has confirmed that Dragonmount was him - as was Avi at TOM's end (which I personally found much superior).

 

 

 

Fish

[MarkDiLillo]

I'd have to reread some of the Morgase sections to be honest.  She was one of those characters I almost zoned out while reading because she was so useless.  I do feel like the only reason she was in the series was because RJ likely had a connection to her situation somehow and for some reason wanted to write about her little story.  Given that, it is very easy for Brandon to stomp over that if you actually pick up on the subtleness and where her story was going.  Maybe the whole thing of her finding a younger husband after early life romances was personal to him...no idea.  I just never paid Morgase too much attention because I felt like she served no purpose and was an example of RJ indulging a little bit with his writing.  I do enjoy reading almost every character RJ wrote, but despite my involvement here I actually have not read the books cover to cover very many times.

 

Nynaeve was one of those characters that lived and breathed subtlety.  Very much like Mat but in a different way.  Brandon seems to not know the definition of subtle and therefor the characters that were built around it suffered tremendously IMO.

[The Fisher King]

Well, Mat and Nyn are two of my favorite characters.

 

As for Morgase, I just felt like she came off idiotic and useless in TOM. Sorta like an older version of Elayne. Imagine that. ... Of course, Morgase was hardly the only character who came off as "idiotic and useless" to me in TOM....and she will always get points in my book for being The Original Cougar.

 

 

Fish

[sleepinghour]

There are several posts that I've been meaning to reply to, but first I wanted to share something Brandon posted on Reddit yesterday. I found this very interesting, and also somewhat depressing as it sounds like RJ left behind less material for AMoL than many people think he did (200 pages, of which 50-100 are notes and interviews...that's a relatively small piece of AMoL).

 

philosophyguru: I know you're incredibly busy on Stormlight 2, but if you have a few minutes, I would love to hear how you approached the notes that RJ left behind. I've heard the story about the ending and who killed Asmodeon when you first visited Harriet's house, but where did you go from there? I assume you didn't just read all of the notes straight through…

 

Brandon: Well, okay, this is going to be kind of long.

To understand my next step, you have to understand what we mean by "Notes." There are really three groups of these.

1) Robert Jordan's Worldbuilding Notes. These were in a series of dozens, maybe hundreds of files embedded chaotically inside of files inside of files, using his own system of notation. The notes reach all the way back to early books he was working on, as he was working on them. They aren't intended to be read by anyone other than him, and are sometimes very difficult to figure out. This is the group that Harriet has said, in her estimation, include a total wordcount equal to or greater to that of the published series.

2) The notes for the last book, gathered by his assistants Maria and Alan, with Harriet's help. These are far more focused on the last book, notes that RJ wrote specifically focusing on the last book. This is a much more manageable amount, maybe fifty or a hundred pages. It includes interviews that Alan and Maria did with RJ before he died, asking him what was to happen to certain characters.

3) Scenes for the last book, either in written form or dictated during his last months. This includes some completed scenes. (The last sequence in the book, for example. Also a lot of prologue material, including the scene with the farmer in TGS, the Borderlander Tower scene in TOFM, and the Isam prologue scene from AMOL.) A lot of these are fragments of scenes, a paragraph here and there, or a page of material that he expected to be expanded to a full chapter. This is different from #2 to me in that these are direct scene constructions, rather than "notes" explaining what was to happen.

Together, #2 and #3 are about 200 pages. That is what I read the night I visited Harriet, and that is what I used to construct my outline.

I took all of the items, but particularly the things in 2&3, and then I re-read the series start to finish, taking notes on character motivations, plots that had not been resolved, and foreshadowing. I used this to create a skeleton, using character touchstones from the notes (like Egwene's climactic moments in TGS) to construct plot cycles.

Where there were big holes, I used my instincts as a writer and my re-read to develop what the story needed. From there, I started writing in viewpoint clusters. I would take character who were in the same area, and write their story for a chunk of time straight through. Then I would go back and do the same for another group of characters.

 

Elsewhere, Brandon talked a bit about the super-long chapter.

 

Just opened the document, as I figured I could give some hard statistics on this. The chapter is just shy of 79,000 words. It contains (by my quick count) 72 scenes--but only 31 distinct viewpoints, as numerous ones repeat. (There are eight Rand scenes, for example, and six each for Mat and Egwene. Three or four each for another eight characters.)

It is not the last chapter of the book, but is a very important one, as you might have guessed. From the get-go, I lobbied Harriet to let me do this sequence as a single, massive chapter as I felt it fit with what was going on in the book as well as fitting with the series as a whole. I'm very pleased with how it turned out.

[The Fisher King]

Thank you deeply for posting that, sleephour as I had not seen it before!!

 

 

Fish

[Manscher]

As per Suttrees suggestion, I'll copy paste this over here to avoid derailing the other thread.

 

No, there's been tons of debate over her being out of character in general in the book, which is not what I'm defending. What I'm defending is her specific action at that very moment. You seem to refuse to accept that Cadsuane is at her core, still a human being, that reacts humanly. Under normal circumstances, she wouldn't strike out like that, because she knows better. But every human being have a breaking point, where sense, logic and regular behaviour just goes through the window and you do things you wouldn't normally do.

 

 

Soldiers gets put under a lot of stress and pressure from day one, as a way of pushing this limit, to make you capable of handling more of it, but it doesn't make that breaking point disappear, it just gives you more endurance. It's very much still there, which is why soldiers get drilled to do the most basic thing over and over again Suttree. It's to make sure that when it really boils over and the stress and pressure becomes immense, they are still capable of performing these tasks, because it's become instinctual for them to do so.

 

Now, I'm curious as to how you find this to be a straw man. As far as I've gathered, the issue some people have with that scene, is that Cadsuane acts out of character, by using the Power to bully Tam after her failed attempt at helping Rand. And here I give you an explanation as to why she acts out of character, and I even give a possible reason as to why she resorts to use the Power, as it's the instinctual reaction for Channelers. Rand even thinks to himself that it's a bad habit, during his fight with Sammael in Shadar Logoth.

 

As for the bullying part, we know it's one of the tools Cadsuane uses at times to get her way, we also know that it's a rather common way for Aes Sedai to deal with none Channelers, more so with people of less power or influence. So again, somewhat instinctual reaction.

 

Now for the last part, when people do snap as described above, they tend to get aggressive and in bad cases, violent. Which explains why she lashed out as she did.

 

 

[Suttree]

Gah my internet is so annoying right now. Just typed a whole response and lost it.

 

Anyway I'll try again. The straw man is in you saying I refuse to believe she is human and capable of snapping. I've never done anything of the sort and the main problem I have with the scene is not just that it was out of character but how it was written. It takes all of one paragraph and in one sentence she goes from coolly asking him if he stayed on script to lashing out with the power. Now I have no problem with her snapping but she is methodical in everything she does and it would have taken much more parrying dialog and provocation for it to happen.

 

Even then it is out of character for it to happen in the manner that it did. In fact she would have been disgusted at any AS who would go brute force with the OP against a man in that situation. Brandon has admitted character bias and it was clear here. The problem is it didn't even make Tam look good, Cads acted the "dumb bully"(something she has never been) and was called such by Tam. The scene was just too blunt and literally read like he was racing to check plot points of a list. That is my biggest issue actually, it had so much potential to be epic but fell far short.