Dark Prophecy from ToM

[yoniy0]

I don't know, a pride isn't really a pack of anything except lions. We've talked about this before in this thread, I think.

[ozimandias]

well, just wait until Perrin goes Berserker with the hammer laying into friends and foes alike, letting his 'you killed my wolf' rage tear the place up.

HA! I like that interpretation of 'his destruction'

 

I'm just not sure how Hopper's death brought "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men," or shook "their very will itself." Besides Perrin and Slayer, Faile is the only one who even knows about Hopper's death, and while it brought sorrow to Perrin, it certainly didn't bring fear or shake his will. If anything, his will is stronger since that encounter, expressed in his making of Mjolnir Mah'alleinir.

Fair enough. The 'last day's of the fallen blacksmith's pride.' seemed to me so strongly referencing that incident with slayer, so perhaps the rest of the passage is a different reference. I just thought maybe the person writing the prophecy took a bit of creative license, since the timing was very specific (In that day, which seemed to be the same day).

But time is pretty compressed here so clearly a Lot is going to happen within the same day, and the span of time during which rand could be considered to be 'lifting his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy' is more than a single day, and Mat could certainly travel the Halls of Mourning again.

I don't know, a pride isn't really a pack of anything except lions. We've talked about this before in this thread, I think.

Ah sorry, I looked through the whole thread I thought and missed it, if it was in there. Ah well, just my take and not very sophisticated, as I freely admit.

[TootThatHorn]

It's probably been addressed already and I missed it, but the destruction part. Is this the destruction of whoever Broken Wolf is? Or could it be the destruction caused by Death? Grammatically it seems to point at the destruction of Broken Wolf but if we look at it referring to Death then it does open up the possibility of Broken Wolf being someone that is ruled out due to the last part of the prophecy.

[FarShainMael]

@Neophyte: I agree that Taim is not that 'wolfy'. After all:

 

So, what - if anything - is wolfish about Taim?

 

I can only find a couple of pointers.

 

One possibility to make Taim a 'Broken Wolf' is that he may have been in line for an important post in Saldaea, which is why I mentioned the wolfhead baton. But that is pure speculation.

 

 

@yoniy0: I did acknowledge that Slayer was killing wolves, though I didn't point out that this may have been to create Darkhounds. Can't remember where I saw that, sorry, will chase it down.

 

 

Still, it's a good discussion, isn't it

 

@Toot: Destruction caused by Death / Moridin (?) I like that..

[Stubby]

FSM, doesn't your argument better fit Slayer than Taim?

 

I've been thinking about this. And I realised that Slayer isn't actually a 'wolf', broken or otherwise.

 

OK, he's killing wolves in the Wolf Dream, but he doesn't 'go wolf' himself, as Perrin does. He doesn't even have yellow eyes, either while he's in 'Isam' mode (TSR53), or as Luc when he's in the Two Rivers (TSR33).

 

He doesn't even seem to be in charge of the Darkhounds. According to Moiraine in TDR44, Sammael was controlling them at that time. Later, in TFoH6 after the Darkhounds attack Rand, Mat, and Asmo, Lanfear says that Rahvin is controlling them now, and Rand objects, wondering if it might be one of the other FS. No mention of Slayer being involved at all.

 

Of course, Taim does none of those things either. He's only a "wolf" in the metaphorical sense of being a dangerous person - and that surely fits Slayer as well. At least Slayer has some connection to wolves - it is possible that either Luc or Isam had the potential to be a Wolfbrother and that the Dark One twisted that to make him what he is. If so, he probably fits the description of "Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known" better than anyone. But that's not even a realistic possibility for Taim.

 

I still think that Bashere is the most likely candidate because I don't think that the destruction of Slayer or Taim would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shake their very will itself." (Of course, you go a different way on the significance of "his destruction" so I won't spend much time on that.)

 

But the case for Taim's wolfyness seems fairly weak. Heck, you tried to establish Taim's wolfyness in part through a connection to Bashere's baton, so I'd think that Bashere is at least as wolfy as Taim. But Slayer seems to be a better fit than either of them, as far as relative wolfyness is concerned.

 

Did you not ask yourself WHY he kills wovles? Some might say it has to do with darkhounds but I say he is trying to expunge their voices in his head. I think he was transforming like Elyas, Perrin and Boundless but went insane. I. E. he is a broken wolf, a failed transformation. Once he was twisted by his hate, he was easy to subvert to the dark side.

Perrin, elyas and boundless are wolves. Nothing suggests that any of them are broken in the wolf sense.

 

He is always smiling while hunting wolves. He absolutely loves to hunt them down.

[FarShainMael]

As to why he's killing wolves, it seems likely that he's been ordered to do so by Moridin - who also 'lent' him to Graendal. But you have a good point nevertheless, and I agree that he's more likely to be 'Broken' than the three Wolfbrothers. Trouble is, as I noted, his eyes aren't yellow - neither as Luc nor as Isam. Even an insane failed wolfbrother should still have those eyes, I think. Or perhaps red eyes

[Mik]

Bashere.

 

Obvious Darkfriend is obvious...ever since he showed up in TFoH;

How he showed up....where he showed up...how he found Rand in the Palace (near impossible)... why he had no Maiden escort when he found Rand.... why he sided with Rand instantly... why it was him who came up with the name Asha'man...

 

Death (Taim/ Moridin) knows him alright; he orders Bashere around.

 

Bashere is broken much like how Ingtar was a broken Borderland warrior; sick if the endless fights and after every fight having to take a step back against the Blight and losing his sons and friends as the Defender of the Heartland.

Ingtar was an example of 'little Bashere', that saw no other way to preserve the Borderlands but to join the Shadow. I believe that -much like Ingtar saw happening in the IfWorlds-, Bashere just gets sucked in deeper and deeper.

Ingtar had the luck of seeing a near infinite number of lives in the if-worlds that made him realise he would never accomplish his -ultimately- good cause by joining the Shadow and he made amends for it at the end of TGH.

Bashere is the new 'Ingtar'. And Bashere won't have Ingtar's luck it appears.

 

That's why it was Bashere -the Defender of the Heartland & a Great Captain- who left Saldaea in a time of great turmoil. Not to hunt Taim with a laugable excuse of an army to go 'male-channeler hunting' (9k of light horse...*smirks*),

but on orders of the Shadow, to convince the world there actually was a "Taim" out there to hunt. There wasn't a Taim to hunt ofcourse, because Taim's body was used for transmigrating Ishamael.

 

Bashere was dropped of by Gateway near Rand in the Royal Palace ofcourse. It's the only plausible way for a stranger -during a war I might add with all gates Aiel controlled- to actually find Rand in a palace that takes up a third of the Inner City, to be able to show up without a Maiden escort incongriously holding glasses and a bottle of wine (only Isendre managed that up untill that point..and we KNOW she was a Darkfriend that had to be dropped of by a Gateway as well inside the Maiden house where Rand had a room).

Well..like I said; obvious Darkfriend is obvious.

 

*dances a little dance*

Cheerio!

 

Mik

 

Edit:

Added link to theory on who killed Asmo. Don't focus on who I named the killer (even though I still like the idea..meh), but focus on all the stuff I wrote on Bashere. And that's just from when we first meet him....

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/8036-who-killed-asmodean/page__st__3640?do=findComment&comment=1653565

(warning; long read!)

[FarShainMael]

I completely agree with you about Bashere being a DF (wish I'd noticed those bits you mentioned, but there's an entire thread about him:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/50915-the-davram-bashere-darkfriend-theory/

 

)

 

I just don't think he's the Broken Wolf.

 

Edited: ninja'd about Asmo................ but that might explain why the only thing we've been given is that Graendal was 'responsible for' his death..

[Mik]

I completely agree with you about Bashere being a DF

Ah m'lady...*bows, tries to flourish his midnight-black cloack that won't flourish due to the fact it's only partly on the internet and kisses your hand*

So good to meet you again.

 

(wish I'd noticed those bits you mentioned, but there's an entire thread about him: http://www.dragonmou...kfriend-theory/ )

I never mind pointing the likes of lovely ladies like yourself to tiny seeds of doubt I've planted over the years. Unfortunately, I have a limited time-window to be here -one could say I am bound by it-, so I'll have to take a raincheck on that link, but I will watch it from deep shadows one of these days.

 

 

I just don't think he's the Broken Wolf.

View Ingtar like a 'little Bashere' and let Bashere's current role & influence sink in for a few days... let the seed grow root...and it will come to you, I am sure of it.

 

Edited: ninja'd about Asmo................ but that might explain why the only thing we've been given is that Graendal was 'responsible for' his death..

Ah yes... her framework of incompetence. *grins*

Let's not take the thread off-topic shall we.

 

We could discuss it over dinner sometime? Here...have some lovely dark wine.

[Story Archer]

The tricky thing for me is this:

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

It seems as if the first three are pretty clear - One-Eyed Fool is Matt, First Among Vermin who breaks the seals and frees the Dark One is Rand and the Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin. All three are called out seperately and THEN we have the addition of the Broken Wolf which suggests he is a seperate individual from the other three.

 

Unless, the wording 'the one whom Death has known' is intended to specify which of the three already mentioned the Broken Wolf is... if that is the case then I think its a no-brainer that it would be Rand.

[FarShainMael]

I completely agree with you about Bashere being a DF

Ah m'lady...*bows, tries to flourish his midnight-black cloack that won't flourish due to the fact it's only partly on the internet and kisses your hand*

So good to meet you again.

 

(wish I'd noticed those bits you mentioned, but there's an entire thread about him: http://www.dragonmou...kfriend-theory/ )

I never mind pointing the likes of lovely ladies like yourself to tiny seeds of doubt I've planted over the years. Unfortunately, I have a limited time-window to be here -one could say I am bound by it-, so I'll have to take a raincheck on that link, but I will watch it from deep shadows one of these days.

 

 

I just don't think he's the Broken Wolf.

View Ingtar like a 'little Bashere' and let Bashere's current role & influence sink in for a few days... let the seed grow root...and it will come to you, I am sure of it.

 

Edited: ninja'd about Asmo................ but that might explain why the only thing we've been given is that Graendal was 'responsible for' his death..

Ah yes... her framework of incompetence. *grins*

Let's not take the thread off-topic shall we.

 

We could discuss it over dinner sometime? Here...have some lovely dark wine.

 

Why thank you kind sir but I do not drink... wine

 

I shall consider your suggestions at length...

[yoniy0]

Once he was twisted by his hate, he was easy to subvert to the dark side.

The problem with this is, it's mostly Isam who enjoys killing wolves (Luc once comments on it, and besides we've only ever saw him do it as Isam). And Isam was raised by the Shadow; no need for any special vulnerability to turn him.

 

Mik, add this Dark-Bashere to the list of things you gloat at me for, come AMoL, won't you? (Just, don't start gloating until after I've read it, okay??)

[thisguy]

Complete speculation: Darkhounds do not look like the wolves they are created from, is it possible that Isam had his soul twisted the same way as the hounds have and that's why he doesn't have the yellow eyes? It would also account for the broken wolf thing.

 

Edit to add: Could Slayer have been creating darkhound packs when he was hunting and killing them?

[elric]

i still think it Perrin.

 

but there another option.

i always seen Rand/Mat and Perrin as diffrent aspect of the Dragon as a 1 entity splitted into 3 person, the broken wolf can reffer to the Dragon Entity.

with 1 part lost (mat) and another part dead(Perrin) the Dragon will fail against the DO (the ultimate tower of midnight) and the dragon falling will couse great despair.

notice that in the Dragon i refer NOT to rand , but to the Entity (to my opinion) that is the united 3 Tavern.

[Neophyte]

@Mik ... I'm pretty sure Bashere is not a Darkfriend like Ingtar was. He's been hanging around with Rand pretty consistently since Rand got his new Darkfriend radar, and Rand hasn't batted an eyelash, and Bashere hasn't seemed uncomfortable at all.

 

Bashere might be made "Broken" if he is defeated or betrayed, but he's not a Darkfriend.

[FarShainMael]

@Mik ... I'm pretty sure Bashere is not a Darkfriend like Ingtar was. He's been hanging around with Rand pretty consistently since Rand got his new Darkfriend radar, and Rand hasn't batted an eyelash, and Bashere hasn't seemed uncomfortable at all.

 

In fact, he did at Maradon. This is discussed at some length in the thread I linked to above. Start at post 49 on

 

http://www.dragonmou...page__st__40#49

[Mik]

Why thank you kind sir but I do not drink... wine

That is one thing we shall have to remedy then. ;)

I shall consider your suggestions at length...

*bows*

I added my older posts to the bashere thread FYI. Just so it's all in one place.

 

Mik, add this Dark-Bashere to the list of things you gloat at me for, come AMoL, won't you? (Just, don't start gloating until after I've read it, okay??)

I don't gloat.

I think áll that's left after the story is a feeling of sadness and emptyness.

Sad simply because it ends, regardless of how I crave the ending. Sad because if I'm wrong, I misinterpreted the Wheel to such an extend I'd feel sad in my own failure.

Sad because if I'm right, I never managed to convince you guys of the beauty I saw in the story in the past decade or so. Meh. Gloating. Never.

 

@Mik ... I'm pretty sure Bashere is not a Darkfriend like Ingtar was. He's been hanging around with Rand pretty consistently since Rand got his new Darkfriend radar, and Rand hasn't batted an eyelash, and Bashere hasn't seemed uncomfortable at all.

 

In fact, he did at Maradon. This is discussed at some length in the thread I linked to above. Start at post 49 on

 

http://www.dragonmou...page__st__40#49

What FarShainMael said. *smiles*

[FarShainMael]

@Mik:

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IDoNotDrinkWine

 

[GYLD]

That's why it was Bashere -the Defender of the Heartland & a Great Captain- who left Saldaea in a time of great turmoil. Not to hunt Taim with a laugable excuse of an army to go 'male-channeler hunting' (9k of light horse...*smirks*),

but on orders of the Shadow, to convince the world there actually was a "Taim" out there to hunt. There wasn't a Taim to hunt ofcourse, because Taim's body was used for transmigrating Ishamael.

 

Bashere went after Taim on orders from Tenobia.

 

"I sent my dear Uncle Davram to bring me the head the False Dragon Mazrim Taim and now he and Taim both follow this al'Thor, if I can believe half what I hear."

[Neophyte]

@Mik ... I'm pretty sure Bashere is not a Darkfriend like Ingtar was. He's been hanging around with Rand pretty consistently since Rand got his new Darkfriend radar, and Rand hasn't batted an eyelash, and Bashere hasn't seemed uncomfortable at all.

 

In fact, he did at Maradon. This is discussed at some length in the thread I linked to above. Start at post 49 on

 

http://www.dragonmou...page__st__40#49

 

Yeah ... no. Being surprised at Rand's intensity and throwing yourself out the window or pulling an Oedipus are so far apart that I honestly can't even take that seriously. Sorry - I just plain disagree.

[FarShainMael]

As I said in that thread, Bashere wasn't just surprised, he was dumbstruck. I also said that this was not a pro-survival trait in the Borderlands and I would not have expected to see it in a Marshal-General. Someone in the group that came south to 'test' Rand said something similar. It's all in the thread; feel free to discuss it there.

[Suttree]

As I said in that thread, Bashere wasn't just surprised, he was dumbstruck. I also said that this was not a pro-survival trait in the Borderlands and I would not have expected to see it in a Marshal-General. Someone in the group that came south to 'test' Rand said something similar. It's all in the thread; feel free to discuss it there.

 

If I recall correctly no one really agreed with your assessment there FSM. It just doesn't work...

[FarShainMael]

As I said in that thread, Bashere wasn't just surprised, he was dumbstruck. I also said that this was not a pro-survival trait in the Borderlands and I would not have expected to see it in a Marshal-General. Someone in the group that came south to 'test' Rand said something similar. It's all in the thread; feel free to discuss it there.

 

If I recall correctly no one really agreed with your assessment there FSM. It just doesn't work...

 

Their reasons for doing so didn't convince me.

 

I'm sticking to my guns with this one until the 'something dark' Viewing is resolved one way or the other. If I'm right, fine. If I'm wrong, c'est la vie.

[Neophyte]

As I said in that thread, Bashere wasn't just surprised, he was dumbstruck. I also said that this was not a pro-survival trait in the Borderlands and I would not have expected to see it in a Marshal-General. Someone in the group that came south to 'test' Rand said something similar. It's all in the thread; feel free to discuss it there.

 

If I recall correctly no one really agreed with your assessment there FSM. It just doesn't work...

 

Their reasons for doing so didn't convince me.

 

That's ok. Your reasons for the initial assessment don't convince me. I'm not saying that to be rude, or to start a fight, just to say that I don't find the idea that Bashere was surprised for a few moments evidence of being a Darkfriend. He just as close to Rand during the Storm of Light as Torkumen and his wife, yet Torkumen and his wife were driven insane just by being in the vicinty, while Bashere wasn't affected at all.

 

The whole bit about "But a Great Captain should never be speechless! Even for a second!" is, if you'll forgive me, silly. Everyone gets surprised sometimes.

[FarShainMael]

Again: surprised, yes. Speechless, no.

 

We can pick this up on the appropriate thread if you wish. But I'm repeating myself, so I'm done here.