Dark Prophecy from ToM

[Neophyte]

Besides the quote provided by someone (was it Yon?), I found this on theoryland. I would have preferred if it was a direct quote, but seems to be a summary. The person asked Brandon about the differences in the Seanchan prophecies:

 

"Brandon said it was a bit of both. He compared it with the story of Beowulf, how a scribe creating a new copy would change one line to make it more Christian, or to make their interpretation more clear. This combined with some influence by the Dark One and his minions make it complicated. He added that it is not that one of the two is true and the other false. They might be on some things, on others both can be true even if it seems to be a contradiction. It's all in the interpretation of the prophecies which is a tricky business. He also remarked that the Darkfriends also have their prophecies, Foretellings and Dreamers, whose predictions are just as valid as the ones from the Light. Being dark prophecies doesn't invalidate them."

 

Well ... that quote is quite far from saying that "all prophecies will be completely fulfilled." He just says that the Dark Prophecies are "just as valid." That is right back to my "equally true" idea, which can mean that both contain the possibility of failure. I mean, he lumped Dreaming in with it, and we know that those are just predictions of probable futures.

 

Honestly, that just reinforces my thought that there are gradations of reliability in the prophecies themselves, even before you get to the problems of translation and interpretation.

[yoniy0]

I asked Terez for some help, and she confirms what I've started to suspect, that there isn't a direct quote by RJ out there which says Foretellings are absolute. However, the text does imply it quite vigorously. For example:

It was a true dream; she knew that long before it faded. A glimpse of a future that might come to pass, a warning of what should be watched for. True dreams were always possibilities, not certainties - she often had to remind herself of that; Dreaming was not Foretelling - but this was a dire possibility.

Suddenly the Foretelling took hold of her, a certainty about things she could not see stronger than if they had been laid out before her. She would have been willing to step blindly over a cliff on that certainty.

So, the in-world belief is that Foretellings are unfailing. For 'meta-data', if you will, see the quotes I provided above, which seem to support that hypothesis.

[Neophyte]

I saw them, including the one from RJ which said:

 

Jordan responded, (not word for word) The viewings and prophecies that occurred before the loosening of the Pattern are very valid. But those that occurred at, or after, the loosening have a higher chance of not coming true.

 

RJ used the word "higher" according to this - "higher" is comparative, not absolute. That would mean that the prophecies that occurred before the loosening of the Pattern have some (albeit tiny) chance of not coming true, but that after the Pattern is loosened, that chance is "higher." It couldn't be "higher" if there wasn't already some chance to start with.

 

The more I see on this, the clearer it seems that there is a gradation of certainty. Dreams, say, 80-95% certain - high probability, but real chance of not happening. Foretelling - 99.9% chance of happening, but slightly less if the Pattern is loosening. Min's viewings - 100% certain, unless the Pattern is destroyed completely.

[yoniy0]

No, I think (since they were talking about the loosening of the Pattern) that when he said higher, he was thinking of that chance that any Foretelling dealing with the Last Battle has of not coming true -- that of the DO breaking free and destroying the Pattern.

[Neophyte]

No, I think (since they were talking about the loosening of the Pattern) that when he said higher, he was thinking of that chance that any Foretelling dealing with the Last Battle has of not coming true -- that of the DO breaking free and destroying the Pattern.

 

Well, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on that - in a friendly fashion.

[Terez]

There is no gradation of certainty with Foretelling or Min's viewings. It's simple: they will be fulfilled unless the Pattern is destroyed. Dreams are different, but even those don't have 'gradations'.

[yoniy0]

Well, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on that - in a friendly fashion.

Hmm, yes, I can agree to that. Though I remain in complete agreement with what Terez said above.

[Neophyte]

There is no gradation of certainty with Foretelling or Min's viewings. It's simple: they will be fulfilled unless the Pattern is destroyed. Dreams are different, but even those don't have 'gradations'.

 

I understand that is your assessment, and you're entitled to it, but you should probably not just ignore the entire conversation prior to make that assertion.

 

You could explain why you think that my interpretation of the provided quotes is wrong. If you think the quote is inaccurate, or you have an alternate explanation of the comparative nature of the word "higher," I'd love to see it. It may be that you have access to information that has not yet been provided here. Although according to yoniy0:

 

 

I asked Terez for some help, and she confirms what I've started to suspect, that there isn't a direct quote by RJ out there which says Foretellings are absolute. However, the text does imply it quite vigorously.

 

So unless yoniy0 is mistaken, you cannot find any quotes which say that Foretellings are absolute.

 

I then disagreed with yoniy0's assertion that the text "does imply it quite vigorously" using a quote that is purportedly from RJ, which she supplied herself. If you have a rebuttal to my argument, I'll be please to read it and respond.

 

Otherwise, you're just making a bald assertion on your own authority, and if that is the case, then I just think you're wrong.

[Terez]

There is no gradation of certainty with Foretelling or Min's viewings. It's simple: they will be fulfilled unless the Pattern is destroyed. Dreams are different, but even those don't have 'gradations'.

 

I understand that is your assessment, and you're entitled to it, but you should probably not just ignore the entire conversation prior to make that assertion.

 

You should not make assumptions about what I have and have not read. You haven't provided a single example of 'gradation'; it's just something you invented out of whole cloth.

 

So unless yoniy0 is mistaken, you cannot find any quotes which say that Foretellings are absolute.

 

Direct from the author, no. From the text, yoniy0 already provided those quotes.

 

I then disagreed with yoniy0's assertion that the text "does imply it quite vigorously"

 

You can disagree that water is wet all day long; that doesn't make your argument convincing.

[FarShainMael]

I saw them, including the one from RJ which said:

 

Jordan responded, (not word for word) The viewings and prophecies that occurred before the loosening of the Pattern are very valid. But those that occurred at, or after, the loosening have a higher chance of not coming true.

 

RJ used the word "higher" according to this - "higher" is comparative, not absolute. That would mean that the prophecies that occurred before the loosening of the Pattern have some (albeit tiny) chance of not coming true, but that after the Pattern is loosened, that chance is "higher." It couldn't be "higher" if there wasn't already some chance to start with.

 

The more I see on this, the clearer it seems that there is a gradation of certainty. Dreams, say, 80-95% certain - high probability, but real chance of not happening. Foretelling - 99.9% chance of happening, but slightly less if the Pattern is loosening. Min's viewings - 100% certain, unless the Pattern is destroyed completely.

 

One of Min's Viewings is a bit strange. It's in TSR47:

 

"...Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future. She had never seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. "

 

So sometimes even her Viewings aren't certainties. Perhaps they are affected by the loosening.

[yoniy0]

One of Min's Viewings is a bit strange. It's in TSR47:

That's a famous example, and one that RJ referred to specifically. When the viewing itself is conditional, that is the only time it might fail to occur (that is, one of the options will).

[Terez]

The viewing is still certain, but the viewing presents two options. It is certain that one of those two options will come to pass, but not certain which. That was incidentally the first time Min had a viewing with options. If Min or a Foretelling says 'this will happen' then it will happen. Unless the Pattern is destroyed.

[Neophyte]

You should not make assumptions about what I have and have not read. You haven't provided a single example of 'gradation'; it's just something you invented out of whole cloth.

 

I didn't make an assumption about what you read. I made a statement about what you were ignoring.

 

I explained, in some detail, exactly what I saw in the stories and with reference to the quotes provided that suggested the idea of gradations to my mind. There certainly is a difference between the reliability of Dreams and other forms of prophecy in the stories, so that is a confirmed initial gradation there. I expanded that idea in what I admit is a speculative manner, and which I consistently phrased in conditionals rather than absolute terms.

 

Whether you read my arguments or not is irrelevant - even if you did, your response ignored them. You did not address any of the points which I made, and demonstrate how they were flawed. You just said, in essence, "Nuh-uh!"

 

So unless yoniy0 is mistaken, you cannot find any quotes which say that Foretellings are absolute.

 

Direct from the author, no. From the text, yoniy0 already provided those quotes.

 

Yes, yoniy0 did provide a link to quotes - including one supposedly directly from the author which I directly addressed. And quotes from the stories in earlier posts, which I also addressed, in earlier posts. And a quote from xxMeltdownxx in another earlier post, which I also addressed in a previous post.

 

You see the pattern here? They bring up a point, and I respond to that point. Then they respond to the points I made. And then, even if we disagree at the end, we've shown each other respect and can disagree in a friendly way.

 

In contrast, you completely ignored any and all points I made regarding the matter in question. And you still are.

 

 

I then disagreed with yoniy0's assertion that the text "does imply it quite vigorously"

 

You can disagree that water is wet all day long; that doesn't make your argument convincing.

 

And you can call a pile of sand water all day long; aren't the implications of flawed metaphors fun?

 

You still haven't addressed any of the points I made.

 

Endnote: And in the interim, FarShainMaiel has provided an example of uncertainty in what is supposed to be the most reliable kind of prophecy of all. Direct from the stories. How interesting ... I wonder if you will just ignore that too ...

[XoMeltdownoX]

Besides the quote provided by someone (was it Yon?), I found this on theoryland. I would have preferred if it was a direct quote, but seems to be a summary. The person asked Brandon about the differences in the Seanchan prophecies:

 

"Brandon said it was a bit of both. He compared it with the story of Beowulf, how a scribe creating a new copy would change one line to make it more Christian, or to make their interpretation more clear. This combined with some influence by the Dark One and his minions make it complicated. He added that it is not that one of the two is true and the other false. They might be on some things, on others both can be true even if it seems to be a contradiction. It's all in the interpretation of the prophecies which is a tricky business. He also remarked that the Darkfriends also have their prophecies, Foretellings and Dreamers, whose predictions are just as valid as the ones from the Light. Being dark prophecies doesn't invalidate them."

 

Well ... that quote is quite far from saying that "all prophecies will be completely fulfilled." He just says that the Dark Prophecies are "just as valid." That is right back to my "equally true" idea, which can mean that both contain the possibility of failure. I mean, he lumped Dreaming in with it, and we know that those are just predictions of probable futures.

 

Honestly, that just reinforces my thought that there are gradations of reliability in the prophecies themselves, even before you get to the problems of translation and interpretation.

Ya I understand your point Neo. But just to point out, the statement I made which kicked all this off was that Dark Prophecies are no less true than Light prophecies. Which is pretty much the same as "he just says that Dark Prophecies are 'just as valid'."

[Neophyte]

Besides the quote provided by someone (was it Yon?), I found this on theoryland. I would have preferred if it was a direct quote, but seems to be a summary. The person asked Brandon about the differences in the Seanchan prophecies:

 

"Brandon said it was a bit of both. He compared it with the story of Beowulf, how a scribe creating a new copy would change one line to make it more Christian, or to make their interpretation more clear. This combined with some influence by the Dark One and his minions make it complicated. He added that it is not that one of the two is true and the other false. They might be on some things, on others both can be true even if it seems to be a contradiction. It's all in the interpretation of the prophecies which is a tricky business. He also remarked that the Darkfriends also have their prophecies, Foretellings and Dreamers, whose predictions are just as valid as the ones from the Light. Being dark prophecies doesn't invalidate them."

 

Well ... that quote is quite far from saying that "all prophecies will be completely fulfilled." He just says that the Dark Prophecies are "just as valid." That is right back to my "equally true" idea, which can mean that both contain the possibility of failure. I mean, he lumped Dreaming in with it, and we know that those are just predictions of probable futures.

 

Honestly, that just reinforces my thought that there are gradations of reliability in the prophecies themselves, even before you get to the problems of translation and interpretation.

Ya I understand your point Neo. But just to point out, the statement I made which kicked all this off was that Dark Prophecies are no less true than Light prophecies. Which is pretty much the same as "he just says that Dark Prophecies are 'just as valid'."

 

Exactly. "No less true" and "just as valid" could mean that they all have to come to pass .... or that they all contain the possibility of failure.

[TootThatHorn]

"In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow"

 

"The Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful."

 

I'm interested to see how both of those come to pass. I guess it depends on who the "us" is in the Dark Prophecy. If it is just the followers of the Dark One, who go into Darkness when the Light triumphs, then the Dark Prophecies are pretty ... weak.

 

I don't think the key here is the word 'us', i think it's 'the Darkness so beautiful,' that's the part that is open to interpretation, and may have something to do with Rand dying and living again, should that happen.

 

Edit: looked like you addressed that in your next post; I would assume that their will be a time where it looks like defeat is going to happen, and the dark thinks they will surely win, only for some miracle to happen and Rand comes back from death or however it happens and wins the battle. That could validate that prophecy.

[Terez]

Endnote: And in the interim, FarShainMaiel has provided an example of uncertainty in what is supposed to be the most reliable kind of prophecy of all. Direct from the stories. How interesting ... I wonder if you will just ignore that too ...

 

I already addressed it. Guess you ignored that.

[FarShainMael]

The viewing is still certain, but the viewing presents two options. It is certain that one of those two options will come to pass, but not certain which.

 

Then the viewing is not certain at all, since what will actually happen is still in doubt.

[Terez]

1) That particular viewing has been fulfilled according to Brandon.

 

2) Even if it hadn't been fulfilled, we would still be certain that one of those two options would come to pass. It's not a matter of 'will this viewing be fulfilled or will it not be fulfilled?' Viewings are always fulfilled. They are absolute. Even when they present options, the fact that one of those two options will come true is absolute, unless the Pattern is destroyed.

[FarShainMael]

We will have to agree to differ on this.

[Terez]

That's hardly unusual [Removed]

[Neophyte]

That's hardly unusual [Removed]

 

And that, boys and girls, is called "being rude" while engaging in a "personal attack." Also, these books are fiction - I know it's "Serious Business" but keeping that in mind might be useful.

 

You still haven't explained why my interpretation of the quote from RJ is wrong. It's in post #253 if you need help finding it.

 

Also, if you look back through this thread, you'll find places where adults acting like adults managed to disagree amicably. Modeling that behavior would not be a bad thing.

[FarShainMael]

I didn't see that post before yoniy0 got to it, which is probably just as well.. But I've often thought that discussions conducted on message boards have one major advantage over discussions held verbally. The entire progress of the discussion is available for everyone to read. Therefore, if I find that I'm not making any progress, or even starting to repeat myself, I back off and let people make up their own minds. It's better for my blood pressure!

[Terez]

That's hardly unusual [Removed]

 

And that, boys and girls, is called "being rude" while engaging in a "personal attack."

 

What it's called is the truth.

 

PS—if my post was a personal attack, then so is yours, and so are several of your preceding posts. But some of us are not so trigger-happy with the report button.

[OsaroLJ]

Back to WOT, having reread TOM, the Broken Wolf has to be Itulrade