A Reunion Unconsidered at FOM

[Express]

I would think that if RJ wrote the reunion between Moiraine and Cadsuane it would be short but detailed while BS would be short and blunt. Either way would be fine by me. The reunion I would want to read about would be between Moiraine and Siuan(I apologize if this is in another thread). As for Moiraine or Cadsuane as someone Rand would trust, both would have to get in line behind Nynaeve.

[shortkut]

Sutt, didn't she back his approach for interrogating semy because she didn't think torture would work, not because she agreed with his policy of not hurting women? That's not backing him, that's not questioning because it still suits her purpose

[elric]

i never claim Rand dont trust Cads, but u claim he trust Mor more .

 

the way i c it in regard to AS rand trust Nyn most , follow closely by Mor , then cads/Ege as a very remote 3rd -> they on my side but have their own agenda that may conflict with mine 3rd place. (not sure if he really think about Elaine as AS).

 

as far as i recall Mor go to the wise before her oath.

 

and she didnt hide it from Rand.

she told him to his face that she think he is mistaken on this so there was no betrayal there .

and she even apology and told him "u been right" when she found ouyt Siuan was deposed.

 

there a diffrence between trusting someone and believing he doing a thing wrong.

 

best example the CK and Asmo.

Mor trust rand he be able to deal with Asmo, a VERY dengerous action taking a forsaken as teacher, an act Rand feard he be killed for if discovered.

Cads didnt trust Rand with the CK gateways and took it from him.

 

and i still await your respond to the rest of the arguments i brought up.

about the diffrence in approach, about Mor actually trying to teach Rand to be independent, about Mor going into cERTAIN death for him, about Mor helping him during weakness while Cads go to him when he was strong....

[snooze1128]

about Mor going into cERTAIN death for him, about Mor helping him during weakness while Cads go to him when he was strong....

 

Not certain death.. I'm pretty sure see saw that she'd live in Rhuidian, which is why in her letter to Thom, she wrote that only 3 of them could rescue her. She knew she could/would be rescued, but that it would only happen w/ certain conditions.

 

On another note, Rand is at the point now where he won't "choose favorites." He'll consider the advice of everyone, although he'd most likely consider Moiraine's advise with more weight.

[Suttree]

about the diffrence in approach, about Mor actually trying to teach Rand to be independent, about Mor going into cERTAIN death for him, about Mor helping him during weakness while Cads go to him when he was strong....

 

I didn't respond to the difference in approach because you can't compare the situations. Moir met him when he was a country bumpkin with no knowledge of the world, Cads came on the scene when AS had done their best to make sure he never trusted a sister ever again. Cads had to study what he was like and adapt accordingly. The worst thing she could have possibly done was approach him the way Moir did originally or take that gentler approach. It would have never worked and he would have ran roughshod all over her. Even Moir new that he specifically needed someone who handles things in a manner like Cads, that's why she told Eggy.

 

Rand will need both of you in the days to come. You handle his temper well – though I may say your methods are unusual. He will need people who cannot be driven away or quelled by his rages, who will tell him what he must hear instead of what they think he wants to.”

- The Fires of Heaven, News Comes To Cairhien

 

I have provided multipel quotes already showing why handling things the way Moir did after Rand had changed would have been a disaster in this thread already.

 

In relation to the Aiel topic she absolutely did hide it. She purposely went behind his back to approach the Aiel WOs in an attempt to dissuade them not to cross the Dragon Wall in an attempt to hamstring his plans. She did not tell him to his face that she was going to do so and it went far beyond just being an advisor and trusting his decisions. If she trusted his decision she wouldn't have went behind his back. Again once she did submit to him it was because her original tact wasn't working. She submitted because she had lost control and was trying to regain influence.

 

Also I have no idea why you keep mentioning certain death. She knew all along there was a chance to be rescued hence the note to Thom. Cads at the cleansing had a far less certain future and she went all in.

[elric]

i fully agrea that Mor had diffrent/better situation in front of her.

 

but i try to look at it from RAND PoV and apply ONLY RAND knowledge.

its not about who the better more competent AS is .

its about who Rand will trust.

 

and after Mor oath to rand ,her full admition about trying to control him and her action AFTER the oath i believe she gain his full trust.

[Damer Sedai]

There are 2 poblems to consider when making a comparison about Rand and trust of Moiraine vs Cadsuane

1st: folks are judging their trustworthiness as a reader sometimes, other from Rand's POV.

2nd: different versions Cadsuane and Moiraine are being presented as models of trustworthiness, from different points in the timelines of the books

Moiraine before their encounter with the eye of the word: Rand has some trust

Moiraine TGH through the beginning of TFOH: almost no trust

Moiraine after swearing her oath: Rand trusts her much more and shares a great deal, but is still wary

Moiraine after making her sacrifice to defeat Lanfear: Rand is shown her true devotion; he misses her and realizes her true value; but, like the readers, Rand's guilt over her sacrifice is inextribly tangled with insight into her trustworthiness, and he idealizes her a bit

 

You can make the same breakdown for Cads if you want. For most of the time it seems as if Rand trusts Cadsuane less than post-fealty Moiraine (remember this version of Moiraine really wasnt around very long, basically TFOH Ch 6 through Ch 51), even when he respects Cads - but again Rand is in a different place, and Cads is using different tactics. Rand certainly trusted Pre-fealty Moiraine no more (and probably less) than Cadsuane post his acceptance of her deal to become his advisor. Prior to WH and after the Domination Band incident, Rand obviously trusts Cads very little.

 

Snooze 1128 makes the best point: Rand post TOM has come to peace with many of his demons (despite many hurdles down the road) and now has sufficient previous experience with and the insight to truly understand the value of both Moiraine and Cadsuane, and I think he will trust and accept counsel from each.

 

The interesting thing will be if their advice conflicts... will they handle it between themselves (Cagematch!) before approaching Rad, or present opposing recommendations to Rand and let him hash it out? Or will they join up with Egwene for a solid Aes Sedai front? Could be interesting.

[fionwe1987]

Wow... three wasted pages on who Rand trusts more? Where in the world do you people get the idea that Rand will choose as his Aes Sedai advisor the person he trusts most? If that was the case, he would simply have chosen Nynaeve long ago and left it at that. He even says straight out that he trusts her more than Cadsuane, and this is in his crazy days.

 

Now? Now he clearly trusts Cadsuane. And she clearly trusts him. More importantly, she's probably the only woman alive who has at least an inkling of what Rand must feel. Having centuries of knowledge and exeprience... only she shares that with him. Sure, there are other women as old or older, but few of them have been as active and had as varied a life as Cadsuane. And that allows her to be the best counterweight to him. She might have gotten momentarily flustered by his revelation that he remembers all of Lews Therin's life. But she was right back to thinking like his advisor a few moments later.

 

Now, I'm sure Rand will be hugely grateful to Moiraine. He will also trust her immensely, and listen to her council. She's also unlikely to be overawed by his "age". But she never held the official position of his advisor, and I think she has come to mean more to Rand now. Something more personal. He doesn't share that with Cadsuane, because they met and interacted at a time when that was impossible. Moiraine to Rand is like Siuan to Egwene. A mentor, a friend, a confidante, someone to look up to. Cadsuane to Rand is like Silviana to Egwene. A trusted ally you respect, whom you expect to be dutiful and to never be swayed to your thoughts by ties of closeness and friendship. You can't trust Siuan and Moiraine not o be a little biased towards Egwene and Rand. But you can expect that of Cadsuane and Silviana.

 

In the end of the day, Egwene's great trust in Siuan, and her deep gratitude for Siuan's training and mentorship, even their personal friendship, didn't make her think of Siuan as her Keeper. And just like the Keeper, chief advisor to the Dragon Reborn is an official post. You don't want your friend there. You want an objective person who you can trust, but who also doesn't have a personal stake in you. You want a professional.

 

I think Moiriane's role is pretty clear. She's the bridge between Rand and Egwene. She was mentors to them both. She found them both and nurtured them vey early in their career. And her best friend and co-conspirator of yore is the closest advisor to Egwene. In many ways, Moiraine and Siuan were the pre-Dragon and pre-Amyrlin. Both Rand and Egwene modeled themselves on these women. And they both have a humungous amount of trust in each other, and I think its no coincidence both have been made immensely weak, but also immensely close to the two movers in the world stage right now who're very close to coming to blows. I think they'll meet again, and I think they'll take a dire view of conflict between the Dragon and the Amyrlin, and I think its their role to heal any rifts between their mentees and create a united front for the LB. Its the logical end point to their quest that began in New Spring.

 

So the real important meeting in FoM, apart from Rand and Egwene, is Siuan and Moiraine.

[Suttree]

Wow... three wasted pages on who Rand trusts more? Where in the world do you people get the idea that Rand will choose as his Aes Sedai advisor the person he trusts most? If that was the case, he would simply have chosen Nynaeve long ago and left it at that. He even says straight out that he trusts her more than Cadsuane, and this is in his crazy days.

 

Actually the discussion started because I was refuting the claim that....

 

It's going to be awkward for Cads when Rand kicks her to the curb for an advisor he can trust as soon as Moiraine arrives.

 

It was never meant to be an either/or.

[Agitel]

I think Moiriane's role is pretty clear. She's the bridge between Rand and Egwene.

 

I see this as one of her primary roles for the next novel, particularly at FOM. The coalition may be threatening to fail and I think that Moiraine will either negotiate something between them or make one of them see reason.

[fionwe1987]

Wow... three wasted pages on who Rand trusts more? Where in the world do you people get the idea that Rand will choose as his Aes Sedai advisor the person he trusts most? If that was the case, he would simply have chosen Nynaeve long ago and left it at that. He even says straight out that he trusts her more than Cadsuane, and this is in his crazy days.

 

Actually the discussion started because I was refuting the claim that....

 

It's going to be awkward for Cads when Rand kicks her to the curb for an advisor he can trust as soon as Moiraine arrives.

 

It was never meant to be an either/or.

Oh I knew you didn't intend it that way. I fully appreciate the point you were making, that there is no great difference in the amount of trust Rand places in Cadsuane vs. Moiraine, and so he's unlikely to give Caddy the boot.

 

I just feel that there are other, even more critical reasons for Rand to keep Cadsuane by his side, not least of which is that Min's viewing regarding Cadsuane is still not fulfilled, with regards to the Asha'man.

[MasterAblar]

I just feel that there are other, even more critical reasons for Rand to keep Cadsuane by his side, not least of which is that Min's viewing regarding Cadsuane is still not fulfilled, with regards to the Asha'man.

 

Hasn't that already been put into motion though? Rand sent Naeff to the Asha'man to tell them they didn't need to be weapons, which is the lesson Cadsuane taught Rand (indirectly and not the way she had planned, but it was still her lesson). Cadsuane is still the source of the message Naeff is to give the Asha'man.

 

Not that I'm doubting that Cadsuane will still be at Rand's side. It's not like she's going to allow anyone to force her from that position anyway.

[BFG]

fionwe1987 - that's a really nice comparison between Rand and Eg and their various advisors.

[fionwe1987]

I just feel that there are other, even more critical reasons for Rand to keep Cadsuane by his side, not least of which is that Min's viewing regarding Cadsuane is still not fulfilled, with regards to the Asha'man.

 

Hasn't that already been put into motion though? Rand sent Naeff to the Asha'man to tell them they didn't need to be weapons, which is the lesson Cadsuane taught Rand (indirectly and not the way she had planned, but it was still her lesson). Cadsuane is still the source of the message Naeff is to give the Asha'man.

 

Not that I'm doubting that Cadsuane will still be at Rand's side. It's not like she's going to allow anyone to force her from that position anyway.

That doesn't make sense though. Any number of things were set off by Rand as a result of what Cadsuane taught him. You can't attribute all that to her! Its not like Cadsuane provoked the Amyrlin's anger by making Rand all mentally okay. Same with what Rand did with Naeff.

 

There's more to this. Something else Cadsuane has to do. And I'm convinced, given her towering stature with the Aes Sedai, her wondering how weird it would be to meet a man who calls himself Aes Sedai, and Rand's asking her to call him Rand Sedai that her role will be to push through a unification of the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man. I'm fairly certain this is something Rand himself wants, given that he has complete memories of the glories of the ancient Aes Sedai organization. I think Cadsuane's job will be to teach the Asha'man they're Aes Sedai too, and to stand up and be counted as such, rather than being attached to the Black Tower.

[elric]

"Where in the world do you people get the idea that Rand will choose as his Aes Sedai advisor the person he trusts most? If that was the case, he would simply have chosen Nynaeve long ago and left it at that."

 

hmmm.... he actuslly did exactly that :)))

 

"Go to Egwene," Rand said, releasing her shoulder. "But when you can, I would like it very much if you returned to

me. I will need your counsel gain. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot

defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Cal-landor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with

me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

 

btw notice Cads not mentioned in the ppl he trust enough to take to Shayol Ghul.

but Moir (to my estimation) will be.

[MasterAblar]

I just feel that there are other, even more critical reasons for Rand to keep Cadsuane by his side, not least of which is that Min's viewing regarding Cadsuane is still not fulfilled, with regards to the Asha'man.

 

Hasn't that already been put into motion though? Rand sent Naeff to the Asha'man to tell them they didn't need to be weapons, which is the lesson Cadsuane taught Rand (indirectly and not the way she had planned, but it was still her lesson). Cadsuane is still the source of the message Naeff is to give the Asha'man.

 

Not that I'm doubting that Cadsuane will still be at Rand's side. It's not like she's going to allow anyone to force her from that position anyway.

That doesn't make sense though. Any number of things were set off by Rand as a result of what Cadsuane taught him. You can't attribute all that to her! Its not like Cadsuane provoked the Amyrlin's anger by making Rand all mentally okay. Same with what Rand did with Naeff.

 

There's more to this. Something else Cadsuane has to do. And I'm convinced, given her towering stature with the Aes Sedai, her wondering how weird it would be to meet a man who calls himself Aes Sedai, and Rand's asking her to call him Rand Sedai that her role will be to push through a unification of the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man. I'm fairly certain this is something Rand himself wants, given that he has complete memories of the glories of the ancient Aes Sedai organization. I think Cadsuane's job will be to teach the Asha'man they're Aes Sedai too, and to stand up and be counted as such, rather than being attached to the Black Tower.

 

Heh, well obviously I can't agree with that being all Black Tower conservative that I am. Isn't the lesson that Cadsuane teaches Rand supposed to be the same one she teaches the Asha'man? Because if it is, well, do you really see her teaching another all important lesson to Rand?

[elric]

another importent lesson Cads will teach Rand....

well considering he have 3 wives... do Cads have a copy of the Kama Sutra ? :)))

[OptimusPrime]

the reunion nobody cares or talks about is LTT and Brigitte

 

On the contrary. Im looking forward to it.

 

I had a whacko idea the other day, how crazy would it be if Moiraine was Ilyena reborn? Would make the reunion doubly interesting, considering VoG and all

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

I had a whacko idea the other day, how crazy would it be if Moiraine was Ilyena reborn? Would make the reunion doubly interesting, considering VoG and all

 

Talk about that to FSM

[OptimusPrime]

"Where in the world do you people get the idea that Rand will choose as his Aes Sedai advisor the person he trusts most? If that was the case, he would simply have chosen Nynaeve long ago and left it at that."

 

hmmm.... he actuslly did exactly that :)))

 

"Go to Egwene," Rand said, releasing her shoulder. "But when you can, I would like it very much if you returned to

me. I will need your counsel gain. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot

defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Cal-landor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with

me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

 

 

btw notice Cads not mentioned in the ppl he trust enough to take to Shayol Ghul.

but Moir (to my estimation) will be.

 

 

I reckon he'll choose Alivia for the second spot. Nynaeve and Alivia. And Narishma as well

[Aquarius]

the reunion nobody cares or talks about is LTT and Brigitte

 

On the contrary. Im looking forward to it.

 

What's so special about it ? Did Birgitte ever mentioned meeting LTT in TA'R ? Where else could they have met ? Did she ever told us about one of her lives at the time of the War of Power ?

[Suttree]

"Where in the world do you people get the idea that Rand will choose as his Aes Sedai advisor the person he trusts most? If that was the case, he would simply have chosen Nynaeve long ago and left it at that."

 

hmmm.... he actuslly did exactly that :)))

 

"Go to Egwene," Rand said, releasing her shoulder. "But when you can, I would like it very much if you returned to

me. I will need your counsel gain. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot

defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Cal-landor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with

me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

 

 

btw notice Cads not mentioned in the ppl he trust enough to take to Shayol Ghul.

but Moir (to my estimation) will be.

 

 

I reckon he'll choose Alivia for the second spot. Nynaeve and Alivia. And Narishma as well

 

Have you seen the AMoL cover Drekka? It's Nyn and Moir.

[OptimusPrime]

the reunion nobody cares or talks about is LTT and Brigitte

 

On the contrary. Im looking forward to it.

 

What's so special about it ?

Whats not special about it? Shes a Hero of the Horn; it wont be a huge deal I think, just something interesting. Plus it might give Rand some insight on how to survive death, particularly if Nynaeve is there if/when they meet.

 

And no Suttree, Ive not seen the cover

[joeron bigelow]

 

Have you seen the AMoL cover Drekka? It's Nyn and Moir.

 

Did BS actually say "it is Mo and Nyn?" When I first saw it, I thought Nyn and Eg. The two most powerful wisdoms ever with the sheepherder.

 

however most of the covers are pretty misleading. I mean - LoC - who is the AS that Rand is helping up or towering over? TGS - who is that with one hand Rand? Not Nyn or Min.

 

Im sure someone will refute me but I gotta put it out there...I mean back in 1991 I think I took 2 hours trying to figure out which one was Mat and Rand. the only one I could figure out was Mo, Perrin, and Lan. Perrin by the Axe. I couldnt figure out if Thom was on the cover or not. Or maybe thats the inside art.

 

TSR - I swear that was a tinker camp in the middle of the waste? I dont recall that happening.

[Suttree]

Have you seen the AMoL cover Drekka? It's Nyn and Moir.

 

Did BS actually say "it is Mo and Nyn?" When I first saw it, I thought Nyn and Eg. The two most powerful wisdoms ever with the sheepherder.

 

1. It's a new artist. The DKS rules no longer apply.

 

2. It has been confirmed.

Interview: May, 2012

 

A Memory of Light Cover Art Round-Up (Verbatim)

MRJackson@218 (7 May 2012)

 

Not sure why there's still confusion. It's Nynaeve and Moiraine on the back cover. The yellow and blue dresses should make that apparent. Nynaeve's hair is obviously shorter than it used to be.

I spoke to Michael about the cover as he was finishing it. Since he didn't have the opportunity to read all fourteen books for the assignment, I was one of the people he leaned on to fact check his work.

 

TSR btw was not a "tinker camp" in the waste. It was the DF peddler caravan that they were traveling with. The girl on the TGS cover is Avi.