Egwene will die

[fionwe1987]

I have never hated Egwene. I love reading about her being awesome. The women being so powerfull and cool is something that surprised me when I started reading these books fifeteen years ago. It hurts and makes me sad but Egwene will be dead by the end of the next book. That is why I stated this thread. I don't like that she will die but she will.

Fair enough. Leaving aside Egwene love or hate, what makes you think this? Why're you so sure?

[Suttree]

Reality is unravelling. The last battle is here. Forget rands plan. As head of the AS what is your plan to seal the bore? Tying nations to the white tower is not a plan to seal the bore

 

But it is marshalling resources to fight TG.

 

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

 

Prophecy is clear on whose job it is to seal the bore. AS can give help but to expect them to fix it on their own is fairly ridiculous.

[snooze1128]

I have never hated Egwene. I love reading about her being awesome. The women being so powerfull and cool is something that surprised me when I started reading these books fifeteen years ago. It hurts and makes me sad but Egwene will be dead by the end of the next book. That is why I stated this thread. I don't like that she will die but she will.

Fair enough. Leaving aside Egwene love or hate, what makes you think this? Why're you so sure?

 

I think the reason she's despised by many is the same reason she can be expected to die in aMoL. She's confident and sure of herself, perhaps even arrogant. Immediately after Veins of Gold, she learns that Rand's grand plan consists of breaking the seals, so that the DO can eventually be properly resealed. She is adamantly against the breaking of the seals, and shows extraordinary defiance to his plan. She is essentially doing everything in her power to prevent this from happening BECAUSE it is what she believes in--and the only reason she believes this is a bad idea is because she's yet to learn that the seals need to be broken.

 

I believe that, probably with the help of Min, Rand will teach her and others at the Fields of Mellinor why the seals need to be broken. She will be convinced, as will many others, and from there on out, will transfer her energies towards supporting Rand. In doing so, I believe she will be caught up in a major battle and die in the process, perhaps to save Rand, or maybe just to kill a bunch of bad guys. Either way, my gut feeling is that she dies in a valiant manner.

[Neophyte]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

 

And, she spent that entire month using the vast resources of the White Tower to come up with alternate plans and to help advise the Dragon on how he could seal the bore effectively? No. She spent the time marshalling armies (which never really made any sense to me) to tie them to the White Tower. Of course, Rand's plan sounds mad to her. But, where does she try to find an alternative? Reality is unravelling and they need to do something (other than tying nations to the White Tower), but we don't see any thoughts at all in this regard.

 

I'll drop it because this is a very old argument that i saw here about 40 times before...

When faced with a Prophesied savior possibly going mad or making a serious mistake at the very least, stopping him from doing crazy things is important. You don't have to come up with an alternative. You just stop him from doing crazy stuff, and hope that helps him find the sensible stuff. This is precisely what Egwene is doing.

 

Not to mention Rand gave her nothing to work with. A cryptic phrase from Fel really means zero to those that don't have access to his materials.

 

@ fionwe1987 - The problem is assuming that he is crazy, and that his insanity is the source of the idea. She didn't show any evidence of thinking critically about what he proposed - she just assumed it was wacko. We have her PoV for the encounter, so we know that she thought things like: "There didn't seem to be madness in his eyes. She knew those eyes. She knew Rand." She certainly should have noticed a drastic change in his demeanor and considered its meaning. Additionally, one of the duties of someone in her position must be to consider objectively the unconventional. But she does not appear to have given his idea serious consideration on its merits.

 

This is probably her first significant misstep since coming to power as Amyrlin. It is a very understandable mistake, but it is a mistake nonetheless. Hopefully, the meeting at Merrilor will allow her to rectify it ... there better be some payoff because there are real problems with how she's setting up that meeting. (*cough* Caemlyn *cough*)

 

@Suttree - Yes, Rand was deliberately cryptic. I think he may have mishandled the encounter too, though not for the reasons many think. He deliberately goaded Egwene into action - knowing that she would gather support to stop him, thus saving him time. She is providing him the stage he wants to make his demands - clearly a part of this will be his demand for the "Dragon's Peace." He seems to regret doing it this way, though his assessment of Egwene's reaction was pretty dead on. I do think that if he had shown a little more confidence in her by trying to explain himself a little more clearly, that the result could have been more amicable. But unfortunately, he had to be wary of showing too much deference in public - in case she didn't end up supporting him, and to not undermine his bargaining position for the upcoming meeting.

 

It's a political calculation - its just a little sad to see it come to that between friends.

[Damer Sedai]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

 

And, she spent that entire month using the vast resources of the White Tower to come up with alternate plans and to help advise the Dragon on how he could seal the bore effectively? No. She spent the time marshalling armies (which never really made any sense to me) to tie them to the White Tower. Of course, Rand's plan sounds mad to her. But, where does she try to find an alternative? Reality is unravelling and they need to do something (other than tying nations to the White Tower), but we don't see any thoughts at all in this regard.

 

I'll drop it because this is a very old argument that i saw here about 40 times before...

When faced with a Prophesied savior possibly going mad or making a serious mistake at the very least, stopping him from doing crazy things is important. You don't have to come up with an alternative. You just stop him from doing crazy stuff, and hope that helps him find the sensible stuff. This is precisely what Egwene is doing.

 

Not to mention Rand gave her nothing to work with. A cryptic phrase from Fel really means zero to those that don't have access to his materials.

 

I don't know that we can assume that Herid Fel is the only source of information on the utility of breaking the seals. After all Cadsuane found ot about the flaws of Callandor from sources unrelated to the Kareathon Cycle. While less efficient. the White Tower has plenty of resources to look into 1.) whether breaking the seals has any theoretic merits (those Whites are good at logic puzzles like this, right?) 2.) and whether there are any alternative plans. Rand's team is still working on their plan, thats why he gave them a heads up with a month to go (or at least, one reason why). Its not just a manipulation, its a heads up, and not one he had to give.

 

 

I think RJ writes Egwene in a manner that clearly shows the advantages and pitfalls of a strong will in one who is driven and aspires to leadership. The Nynaeve encounter in tel'aran'rhiod was clearly on the surface a lesson for Nynaeve's benefit, but motivated by less than altruistic forces - both desire to distract from Egwene's own lies to the Wise Ones, and changing the power balance with a former mentor that sees Egwene as a child.

 

Egwene went too far, a moral low point, but not really that far out of bounds for Randland society as Aes Sedai lessons can be rather harsh. Clearly, nightmare creatures in tel'aran'rhiod are worse than simple bad dreams, and on the cruel side to boot, but the event, caused no lasting damage, had a clear purpose, and lasted no longer than necessary. It was almost a direct parallel as to how Amys provided Egwene with a pointed lesson in tel'aran'rhiod when she didn't show proper care, and while harsh it wasn't truly traumatic (and, in fact, not that effective in Egwene's case)

 

I like to think that Egwene learned the dangers of imposing ones will so forcefully on a friend in such a manner is both wrong and dangerous, as its not a tool she uses again and again, like a real bully would. Instead, as she progresses in Salidar she uses a lighter and lighter touch, while still getting her will enforced despite her limitations by the politics of the Hall. I was a little disappointed that in her inner PoV she seemed only interested the change in the balance of power, but I think her development can be infered by how she proceeded from that point on.

 

I agree with this almost entirely. The only part with which I disagree slightly is the idea that Egwene's actions were parallel to Amys'. First of all, Amys is more skilled in Tel'aran'rhiod at this point, and did not cause actual physical damage to Egwene. Second, Amys had the authority to impose this kind of punishment - authority gained because of greater skill and experience. So while Egwene might have rationalized her actions as being parallel to Amys', I don't think they actually were, though a portion of her intent might have been the same.

 

This might be comparable to a parent imposing a punishment on a sibling, then that sibling imposing the same punishment on another sibling. Not only does the parent have the authority, but the parent (presumably) has greater judgment and control.

 

It's a small, but I think important distinction. There is also the fact that Egwene agreed to accept the Wise Ones' tutelage and instruction - Nynaeve had not given Egwene similar consent.

 

And I strongly agree with your opening sentence. Autocratic style and even cruelty born of a lack of patience is a real danger for those with intelligence, power, and ambition. Egwene has grappled with those things at times (though thankfully, really deliberate cruelty hasn't been an issue for her) - and, on the whole, has been successful in overcoming those urges.

 

Its like you are reading my mind! I totally agree here, and almost added a bit about the parent/child contract... how Egwene mimicked Amy's lesson without insight and without the implied consent of granted authority, and thats why it was wrong and cruel for Egwene and harsh but appropriate for Amys... but I was afraid I would go too far afield.

 

Egwene is certainly the strongest willed of all the original Emond's Fielder's, yet is the youngest. She is different from the rest of them in that she embraced her new roles, and I think because she is so certain in her judgement (often a good quality) she appears less sympathetic and therefore "power hungry" to some readers, an can appear more egregious when she is judgemental and wrong compared to the rest of the main characters (who are wrong just as often... just not quite as abrasively so)

[Suttree]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

 

And, she spent that entire month using the vast resources of the White Tower to come up with alternate plans and to help advise the Dragon on how he could seal the bore effectively? No. She spent the time marshalling armies (which never really made any sense to me) to tie them to the White Tower. Of course, Rand's plan sounds mad to her. But, where does she try to find an alternative? Reality is unravelling and they need to do something (other than tying nations to the White Tower), but we don't see any thoughts at all in this regard.

 

I'll drop it because this is a very old argument that i saw here about 40 times before...

When faced with a Prophesied savior possibly going mad or making a serious mistake at the very least, stopping him from doing crazy things is important. You don't have to come up with an alternative. You just stop him from doing crazy stuff, and hope that helps him find the sensible stuff. This is precisely what Egwene is doing.

 

Not to mention Rand gave her nothing to work with. A cryptic phrase from Fel really means zero to those that don't have access to his materials.

 

I don't know that we can assume that Herid Fel is the only source of information on the utility of breaking the

 

Is there evidence to support any other interpretation?

[Heronz]

 

It's a political calculation - its just a little sad to see it come to that between friends.

 

But i'll like to note jesus Rand isn't like this naturally. He's rather open with everyone (even CAD) about intentions as far as we seen, the exception being Eg. That is the saddest thing.

[Damer Sedai]

 

Is there evidence to support any other interpretation?

 

Sorry, I had a posting mishap. Fixed my statement, so there is more in the original post. Basically, there isnt any direct evidence that there is, but Cadsuane mentioned in TGS that the Three Shall Become One line in the Prophesies of the Dragon led her to research in other sources that detailed Callandors flaws, stuff that is not in the prophesies. its a parallel, but not the strongest one.

[MasterAblar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rand cut her off and just up and leave at the beginning of ToM? Just like popped up in the WT and was like "Hey, I'm gonna break all the Seals, see you in a month, bye!"

 

And, she spent that entire month using the vast resources of the White Tower to come up with alternate plans and to help advise the Dragon on how he could seal the bore effectively? No. She spent the time marshalling armies (which never really made any sense to me) to tie them to the White Tower. Of course, Rand's plan sounds mad to her. But, where does she try to find an alternative? Reality is unravelling and they need to do something (other than tying nations to the White Tower), but we don't see any thoughts at all in this regard.

 

I'll drop it because this is a very old argument that i saw here about 40 times before...

When faced with a Prophesied savior possibly going mad or making a serious mistake at the very least, stopping him from doing crazy things is important. You don't have to come up with an alternative. You just stop him from doing crazy stuff, and hope that helps him find the sensible stuff. This is precisely what Egwene is doing.

 

Not to mention Rand gave her nothing to work with. A cryptic phrase from Fel really means zero to those that don't have access to his materials.

 

@ fionwe1987 - The problem is assuming that he is crazy, and that his insanity is the source of the idea. She didn't show any evidence of thinking critically about what he proposed - she just assumed it was wacko. We have her PoV for the encounter, so we know that she thought things like: "There didn't seem to be madness in his eyes. She knew those eyes. She knew Rand." She certainly should have noticed a drastic change in his demeanor and considered its meaning. Additionally, one of the duties of someone in her position must be to consider objectively the unconventional. But she does not appear to have given his idea serious consideration on its merits.

 

This is probably her first significant misstep since coming to power as Amyrlin. It is a very understandable mistake, but it is a mistake nonetheless. Hopefully, the meeting at Merrilor will allow her to rectify it ... there better be some payoff because there are real problems with how she's setting up that meeting. (*cough* Caemlyn *cough*)

 

@Suttree - Yes, Rand was deliberately cryptic. I think he may have mishandled the encounter too, though not for the reasons many think. He deliberately goaded Egwene into action - knowing that she would gather support to stop him, thus saving him time. She is providing him the stage he wants to make his demands - clearly a part of this will be his demand for the "Dragon's Peace." He seems to regret doing it this way, though his assessment of Egwene's reaction was pretty dead on. I do think that if he had shown a little more confidence in her by trying to explain himself a little more clearly, that the result could have been more amicable. But unfortunately, he had to be wary of showing too much deference in public - in case she didn't end up supporting him, and to not undermine his bargaining position for the upcoming meeting.

 

It's a political calculation - its just a little sad to see it come to that between friends.

 

Those are pretty much by thoughts exactly on the subject. The basic mistake Egwene makes is assuming that Rand is wrong on the subject to begin with. She never considers that he may be right, not even after Elayne and Nyneave are shown to not be all that opposed to breaking the seals. And the fact is that she made that decision too soon. She could have decided whether or not he was right about the seals at the FoM, and more importantly let the world know of her decision on the matter. Rand isn't breaking the seals right this second, and there's too much about how he acted at the meeting that doesn't add up, and that contradicts what they knew about him. Egwene's completely in the dark, but instead of waiting for more information on both Rand and his plan to break the seals, she's decided to oppose. She should have kept her thoughts on the matter to herself, called all the Kings and Queens to the FoM, and only after hearing what Rand had to say made her decision. Unfortunately, she jumped the gun. That said I doubt it'll have lasting effects.

[fionwe1987]

@ fionwe1987 - The problem is assuming that he is crazy, and that his insanity is the source of the idea.

She's not assuming that, and once Nynaeve debriefed her on Rand, didn't even consider it as a possibility anymore.

She didn't show any evidence of thinking critically about what he proposed - she just assumed it was wacko.

But it was. There was no way for her to critically think on what little Rand gave her. Remove what you know about Fel and the other hints Rand had about this from your mind. Then just consider exactly what he said to her in ToM. No one but an extremely irresponsible person would agree with him. Even Nynaeve disagreed with him till he gave her a better explanation. But when Egwene asked for the same, Rand refused.

 

Why did he refuse? Because he knew that by acting irrational and cryptic, he would force Egwene to do the only thing she could do faced with something like that: gather support to question his tactics. She behaved exactly as Rand expected her to because Rand expected her to behave rationally to his bizarre statements.

We have her PoV for the encounter, so we know that she thought things like: "There didn't seem to be madness in his eyes. She knew those eyes. She knew Rand." She certainly should have noticed a drastic change in his demeanor and considered its meaning. Additionally, one of the duties of someone in her position must be to consider objectively the unconventional. But she does not appear to have given his idea serious consideration on its merits.

It merits serious consideration to you and me because we have a global picture of the events of the series. She does not. Additionally, she has a Dream whose meaning we disagree on, but she herself seems to have no doubts about. And that Dream sends a visceral sense of dread down her, for very obvious reasons.

This is probably her first significant misstep since coming to power as Amyrlin. It is a very understandable mistake, but it is a mistake nonetheless. Hopefully, the meeting at Merrilor will allow her to rectify it ... there better be some payoff because there are real problems with how she's setting up that meeting. (*cough* Caemlyn *cough*)

Its not a mistake at all. If it was such an egregious mistake, you'd see people like Nynaeve and Elayne call her on it. Now, as to why Nynaeve didn't tell her Rand's explanation... that I do not know. It is utterly unbelievable. But do notice that the honest representation of what Rand said to her has made Elayne and the Wise Ones take a similar view of the situation too.

 

In some ways, the entire thing has been so badly handled I'm tempted to lay it down to the split. But given Elaida's prophesy, it does seem that they were supposed to disagree on something. Perhaps in the original, Rand comes to her and says peace with the Seanchan is his proce to fight the DO, and she really does flip out. That would also end up with her getting precisely the same support base that she currently has, and only Perrin would probably support Rand on it, just as we currently have.

 

The problem with the route Brandon chose (as I believe) is that its entirely unrealistic. If all Rand wanted Egwene to do is bring all the monarchs together, he could simply have asked for a private meeting, given her his explanation, and asked for her help. That he chose to do it this way makes no sense. As it is written, his current plan is to bring all the rulers together in opposition to his plan. Now, he's going to go show them how his plan actually is reasonable, further ruffling their feathers, and then he's going to demand a peace with the Seanchan? Rile up the woman who'll already have the most against your Seanchan plan- brilliant way to get her to see things your way- not!

 

Leaving the mechanics aside, though, it seems clear that Rand meant to be cryptic, and that he expected Egwene to react the normal way to such a crazy plan with no explanation. And she did. What she did was no mistake.

[fionwe1987]

The basic mistake Egwene makes is assuming that Rand is wrong on the subject to begin with. She never considers that he may be right, not even after Elayne and Nyneave are shown to not be all that opposed to breaking the seals. And the fact is that she made that decision too soon. She could have decided whether or not he was right about the seals at the FoM, and more importantly let the world know of her decision on the matter. Rand isn't breaking the seals right this second, and there's too much about how he acted at the meeting that doesn't add up, and that contradicts what they knew about him. Egwene's completely in the dark, but instead of waiting for more information on both Rand and his plan to break the seals, she's decided to oppose. She should have kept her thoughts on the matter to herself, called all the Kings and Queens to the FoM, and only after hearing what Rand had to say made her decision. Unfortunately, she jumped the gun. That said I doubt it'll have lasting effects.

This right here is what convinces me its all a result of Brandon needing to split the books and needing some dramatic tension at the end of ToM. Elayne's flip flop on this issue makes no sense. Nor does Egwene's somewhat schizophrenic thoughts on Rand. In tGS, she is slowly learning to appreciate his thought process, especially when she's imprisoned. Then she opposes his plan, which, okay I can understand. Then, she tells Nynaeve and Siuan that the man she saw was reliable and powerful and sane. Then she thinks about how the land is one with the Dragon. Then she thinks Rand is wrong, and knows he's wrong, but is desperate and hoping she'll help him avoid making a mistake? Where's the consistency in all this?

 

Rand's own explanation also made no sense. Egwene's insistance that Rand should be able to reseal the Bore without breaking the Seals came from... where, exactly? Either Brandon is hiding any research she may have done to keep up the suspense, or her somewhat abrupt change in position makes no sense. The worse thing is she keeps going back and forth on this. In one scene he is reckless. In another he's apparently capable of reversing the effects of Graendal's compulsion on her slaves (!!!), then after that, he's desperately in need of her guidance? For a highly introspective character like Egwene, we get none of her thought process for any of this. All we get are statements that just don't add up.

 

And thus, yet another thread turns into a discussion of Brandon's writing...

[driedraspberry]

This thread has gotten totally derailed for 3 pages. One of the few things I'll point out is that Egwene is one of the few YOUNG characters in the entire book who consistently sought out positions of power and influence. Rand, Perrin, Matt, Nynaeve....not so much. Nynaeve simply wants to bully people and have them do things her way. Egwene sought power and control over events. Not ascribing evil motives to that, but it is a very different personality.

 

...

 

I think she's going to die. I also think she may betray Rand, and then regret it, and turn back. One of the most dissapointing things to me is how Egwene has been written in the last book - she's smart and capable, and maybe even has a logical argument for why the seals can't be broken. But she doesn't make it, she never considers Rand's point, and she shows no consideration of HOW Rand is expected to best the Dark One....or an alternative way of doing it driven by her.

 

It reads like modern politics actually; stop the other party even if you don't have a plan of your own or have thought through the ramifications.

 

I'm thinking she's the easiest bait for the shadow out of the side of the light. I could see her betraying Rand too, but not necessarily with ill intent.

 

Her thirst for power/control and her conviction that she, at eighteen, knows best is a lethal combination. She means well, but we've seen doing the right think from different perspectives can cause some serious sparks.

 

Unless Eggy and Rand reconcile their differences early in aMoL, I expect some crazy stuff. My hope has always been for 2 of the original 5 TRers to die. Eggy and Rand biting it after all the changes they've brought seems appropriate.

 

Also let's stop with the nonsense about hating Eggy = fear of women in position of power. If you've read the series you'd know that there are very few women not in positions of power, and most aren't know it all teens. There are issues with Eggy's characterization that are detrimental to enjoyment of her for some. And for some others the dislike started long before Eggy had any power anyway.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The basic mistake Egwene makes is assuming that Rand is wrong on the subject to begin with. She never considers that he may be right, not even after Elayne and Nyneave are shown to not be all that opposed to breaking the seals. And the fact is that she made that decision too soon. She could have decided whether or not he was right about the seals at the FoM, and more importantly let the world know of her decision on the matter. Rand isn't breaking the seals right this second, and there's too much about how he acted at the meeting that doesn't add up, and that contradicts what they knew about him. Egwene's completely in the dark, but instead of waiting for more information on both Rand and his plan to break the seals, she's decided to oppose. She should have kept her thoughts on the matter to herself, called all the Kings and Queens to the FoM, and only after hearing what Rand had to say made her decision. Unfortunately, she jumped the gun. That said I doubt it'll have lasting effects.

This right here is what convinces me its all a result of Brandon needing to split the books and needing some dramatic tension at the end of ToM. Elayne's flip flop on this issue makes no sense. Nor does Egwene's somewhat schizophrenic thoughts on Rand. In tGS, she is slowly learning to appreciate his thought process, especially when she's imprisoned. Then she opposes his plan, which, okay I can understand. Then, she tells Nynaeve and Siuan that the man she saw was reliable and powerful and sane. Then she thinks about how the land is one with the Dragon. Then she thinks Rand is wrong, and knows he's wrong, but is desperate and hoping she'll help him avoid making a mistake? Where's the consistency in all this?

 

Rand's own explanation also made no sense. Egwene's insistance that Rand should be able to reseal the Bore without breaking the Seals came from... where, exactly? Either Brandon is hiding any research she may have done to keep up the suspense, or her somewhat abrupt change in position makes no sense. The worse thing is she keeps going back and forth on this. In one scene he is reckless. In another he's apparently capable of reversing the effects of Graendal's compulsion on her slaves (!!!), then after that, he's desperately in need of her guidance? For a highly introspective character like Egwene, we get none of her thought process for any of this. All we get are statements that just don't add up.

 

And thus, yet another thread turns into a discussion of Brandon's writing...

This is the best summary of that arc I have come across.

[Damer Sedai]

The basic mistake Egwene makes is assuming that Rand is wrong on the subject to begin with. She never considers that he may be right, not even after Elayne and Nyneave are shown to not be all that opposed to breaking the seals. And the fact is that she made that decision too soon. She could have decided whether or not he was right about the seals at the FoM, and more importantly let the world know of her decision on the matter. Rand isn't breaking the seals right this second, and there's too much about how he acted at the meeting that doesn't add up, and that contradicts what they knew about him. Egwene's completely in the dark, but instead of waiting for more information on both Rand and his plan to break the seals, she's decided to oppose. She should have kept her thoughts on the matter to herself, called all the Kings and Queens to the FoM, and only after hearing what Rand had to say made her decision. Unfortunately, she jumped the gun. That said I doubt it'll have lasting effects.

This right here is what convinces me its all a result of Brandon needing to split the books and needing some dramatic tension at the end of ToM. Elayne's flip flop on this issue makes no sense. Nor does Egwene's somewhat schizophrenic thoughts on Rand. In tGS, she is slowly learning to appreciate his thought process, especially when she's imprisoned. Then she opposes his plan, which, okay I can understand. Then, she tells Nynaeve and Siuan that the man she saw was reliable and powerful and sane. Then she thinks about how the land is one with the Dragon. Then she thinks Rand is wrong, and knows he's wrong, but is desperate and hoping she'll help him avoid making a mistake? Where's the consistency in all this?

 

Rand's own explanation also made no sense. Egwene's insistance that Rand should be able to reseal the Bore without breaking the Seals came from... where, exactly? Either Brandon is hiding any research she may have done to keep up the suspense, or her somewhat abrupt change in position makes no sense. The worse thing is she keeps going back and forth on this. In one scene he is reckless. In another he's apparently capable of reversing the effects of Graendal's compulsion on her slaves (!!!), then after that, he's desperately in need of her guidance? For a highly introspective character like Egwene, we get none of her thought process for any of this. All we get are statements that just don't add up.

 

And thus, yet another thread turns into a discussion of Brandon's writing...

This is the best summary of that arc I have come across.

 

Yes, I can definitely see the point, and I have some of the same problems. I normally hate this default position 'its a writing problem' because then everything is suspect, and it derails discussion but Egwene's varied impressions of Rand seem inconsistent with each other, and with her subsequent actions as a result.

 

Its a problem of Egwene's complicated relationship with Rand and her faith in the institution of the white tower. Each of her contradictory opinions she makes has been supported in the earlier books, but when you put them all together, it sounds almost schizophrenic (the colloquial meaning, not the psychiatric definition)

1. I want to help Rand, because he deserves it (Books 1-6)

2. Rand is usually wrong (Books 1-6)

3 The White Tower is the Lights best defense, therefore the Dragon Reborn must be Guided/Directed (Books (8 +)

4. Rand is going crazy, and crazy isnt trustworthy (whole series)

5. Rand is treating Aes Sedai poorly, and therefore should be challenged, and perhaps punished (Book 8+)

 

I don't know how RJ would have handled it either, because these conflicting themes are tough enough to put into a coherent line of reasoning for Egwene, without having them colored by the twin fear of Dark Rand, and the trust in Zen Rand. This would have come up regardless whether the conflict was over the Seals or the Seanchan, so I dont think the actually reason for the Amilryn's Anger is the problem

[What's a Seawolf?]

I like Egwene, so I hope she lives, but if her dying gets Nynaeve to rule side by side with Logain, then it would be a nice twist.

 

And probably an epic going out scene. (Plus, I imagine she'd totally be a hero of the horn, regardless of the split fan opinions on her.)

[Suttree]

It actually would be pretty sweet to see her go out in a blaze of glory a la Rashima Kerenmosa,

 

LoC "Glossary"

Called the Soldier Amyrlin. Born circa 1150 AB. Raised Amyrlin from the Green Ajah in 1251 AB. Personally leading the Tower armies, she won innumerable victories, most notably Kaisin Pass, the Soralle Step, Larapelle, Tel Norwin and Maighande, where she died in 1301 AB. Her body was discovered after the battle surrounded by her five Warders and a vast wall of Trollocs and Myrddraal which contained the corpses of no fewer than nine Dreadlords.

 

Just feel she has been built up far too much for that to happen and it too important to the WT structure. Again I believe her and Logain lead the channelers moving forward. Perhaps Cads will be the Green that goes out with a bang.

 

Edit: Finished my thought and yes I concur MA.

[MasterAblar]

It actually would be pretty sweet to see her go out in a blaze of glory a la Rashima Kerenmosa...

 

It would be pretty awesome, but what happens to the WT afterwards? She's sort of holding the whole thing together. Who would be capable of stepping into her shoes?

[fionwe1987]

The basic mistake Egwene makes is assuming that Rand is wrong on the subject to begin with. She never considers that he may be right, not even after Elayne and Nyneave are shown to not be all that opposed to breaking the seals. And the fact is that she made that decision too soon. She could have decided whether or not he was right about the seals at the FoM, and more importantly let the world know of her decision on the matter. Rand isn't breaking the seals right this second, and there's too much about how he acted at the meeting that doesn't add up, and that contradicts what they knew about him. Egwene's completely in the dark, but instead of waiting for more information on both Rand and his plan to break the seals, she's decided to oppose. She should have kept her thoughts on the matter to herself, called all the Kings and Queens to the FoM, and only after hearing what Rand had to say made her decision. Unfortunately, she jumped the gun. That said I doubt it'll have lasting effects.

This right here is what convinces me its all a result of Brandon needing to split the books and needing some dramatic tension at the end of ToM. Elayne's flip flop on this issue makes no sense. Nor does Egwene's somewhat schizophrenic thoughts on Rand. In tGS, she is slowly learning to appreciate his thought process, especially when she's imprisoned. Then she opposes his plan, which, okay I can understand. Then, she tells Nynaeve and Siuan that the man she saw was reliable and powerful and sane. Then she thinks about how the land is one with the Dragon. Then she thinks Rand is wrong, and knows he's wrong, but is desperate and hoping she'll help him avoid making a mistake? Where's the consistency in all this?

 

Rand's own explanation also made no sense. Egwene's insistance that Rand should be able to reseal the Bore without breaking the Seals came from... where, exactly? Either Brandon is hiding any research she may have done to keep up the suspense, or her somewhat abrupt change in position makes no sense. The worse thing is she keeps going back and forth on this. In one scene he is reckless. In another he's apparently capable of reversing the effects of Graendal's compulsion on her slaves (!!!), then after that, he's desperately in need of her guidance? For a highly introspective character like Egwene, we get none of her thought process for any of this. All we get are statements that just don't add up.

 

And thus, yet another thread turns into a discussion of Brandon's writing...

This is the best summary of that arc I have come across.

 

Yes, I can definitely see the point, and I have some of the same problems. I normally hate this default position 'its a writing problem' because then everything is suspect, and it derails discussion but Egwene's varied impressions of Rand seem inconsistent with each other, and with her subsequent actions as a result.

 

Its a problem of Egwene's complicated relationship with Rand and her faith in the institution of the white tower. Each of her contradictory opinions she makes has been supported in the earlier books, but when you put them all together, it sounds almost schizophrenic (the colloquial meaning, not the psychiatric definition)

1. I want to help Rand, because he deserves it (Books 1-6)

2. Rand is usually wrong (Books 1-6)

3 The White Tower is the Lights best defense, therefore the Dragon Reborn must be Guided/Directed (Books (8 +)

4. Rand is going crazy, and crazy isnt trustworthy (whole series)

5. Rand is treating Aes Sedai poorly, and therefore should be challenged, and perhaps punished (Book 8+)

 

I don't know how RJ would have handled it either, because these conflicting themes are tough enough to put into a coherent line of reasoning for Egwene, without having them colored by the twin fear of Dark Rand, and the trust in Zen Rand. This would have come up regardless whether the conflict was over the Seals or the Seanchan, so I dont think the actually reason for the Amilryn's Anger is the problem

 

Thoughts 2, 3, 4 and 5 are not true. Not entirely false (not all of them) but not true either. Let's take them one at a time:

 

2. Rand is usually wrong (Books 1-6)

Sorry, but no. She defends him to Moiraine, to the Wise Ones, to Aviendha... she never thinks or behaves as if he's usually wrong. There are even some amusing scenes where she shows that she knows he's clever. The issue in these books was that Egwene was caught between Rand and those Rand saw as opposing him who were actually for him, like Moiraine and the Wise Ones. Egwene's frustration is that he doesn't trust them, not that he's stupid in other ways.

 

3 The White Tower is the Lights best defense, therefore the Dragon Reborn must be Guided/Directed (Books (8 +)

I've never seen her make that correlation actually. If anything, she pointed out to Moiraine that the Tower breaking was a good thing for Rand. Later, in tPoD, when discussing with Siuan why she believes the Rebellion is necessary, she says that left to herself, Elaida would kidnap Rand and try to destroy the BT (oh how little you knew her). She also sent Logain to Rand when she thought the Tower would take the wrong decision regarding him. None of these are things you do if you think the Tower is better than Rand.

 

4. Rand is going crazy, and crazy isnt trustworthy (whole series)

Whole series? Books 1-3, she is about the only one who ignores the fact that he'll soon go mad, and continues to stand by him. Books 4-6 she's worried, and by 6, she's definitely seeing worrying signs. By the later books, she has been receiving reports of his erratic behavior, but still hopes he's sane. By book 12, she seems to have gotten an idea that his capture by Elaida might well explain some of his irrationality. Never once do we see her think of Rand as untrustworthy.

 

5. Rand is treating Aes Sedai poorly, and therefore should be challenged, and perhaps punished (Book 8+)

No, she was worried Rand had compelled Aes Sedai. When Lelaine suggested compelling Asha'man to keep them under control, she threatened punishment then too. This has nothing to do with Rand, and everything to do with Egwene simply abhoring Compulsion.

[bigdoug1971]

She can die and take Faile with her when she goes. I've had enough of both of them. Gawyn can go too, but if Elayne lives then he probably will too.

[Damer Sedai]

Yes, I can definitely see the point, and I have some of the same problems. I normally hate this default position 'its a writing problem' because then everything is suspect, and it derails discussion but Egwene's varied impressions of Rand seem inconsistent with each other, and with her subsequent actions as a result.

 

Its a problem of Egwene's complicated relationship with Rand and her faith in the institution of the white tower. Each of her contradictory opinions she makes has been supported in the earlier books, but when you put them all together, it sounds almost schizophrenic (the colloquial meaning, not the psychiatric definition)

1. I want to help Rand, because he deserves it (Books 1-6)

2. Rand is usually wrong (Books 1-6)

3 The White Tower is the Lights best defense, therefore the Dragon Reborn must be Guided/Directed (Books (8 +)

4. Rand is going crazy, and crazy isnt trustworthy (whole series)

5. Rand is treating Aes Sedai poorly, and therefore should be challenged, and perhaps punished (Book 8+)

 

I don't know how RJ would have handled it either, because these conflicting themes are tough enough to put into a coherent line of reasoning for Egwene, without having them colored by the twin fear of Dark Rand, and the trust in Zen Rand. This would have come up regardless whether the conflict was over the Seals or the Seanchan, so I dont think the actually reason for the Amilryn's Anger is the problem

 

Thoughts 2, 3, 4 and 5 are not true. Not entirely false (not all of them) but not true either. Let's take them one at a time:

 

2. Rand is usually wrong (Books 1-6)

Sorry, but no. She defends him to Moiraine, to the Wise Ones, to Aviendha... she never thinks or behaves as if he's usually wrong. There are even some amusing scenes where she shows that she knows he's clever. The issue in these books was that Egwene was caught between Rand and those Rand saw as opposing him who were actually for him, like Moiraine and the Wise Ones. Egwene's frustration is that he doesn't trust them, not that he's stupid in other ways.

 

You are kidding right? I like Egwene, but in TEoTW - she dismisses his asertion that the trollocs are after the taveren three, she doesnt believe him when he says he met the Daughter heir... in TGS, she doesn't believe him when he tells her that he is being kept in Fal Dara, or that the serving women are looking for him... also She doesn't believe him when he says Fain is dangerous and goes back to see him with Mat... in TSR ...she doesnt understand his manipulations of the HIgh Lords of Tear, but intuits whatever he is doing is something he should be ashamed of ... She accuses him of treating Aviendha poorly, because she is viewing him with hate... She accuses him of letting the Aiel loot the Stone...I could go on and on but I am only 4 books in, and they were never in the same room in Book 3. There is also to constant insults to his intelligence (which again, is likely at least half affectation)

 

On top of that she has ALSO been supportive, and kind, and understanding. These judgements is probably a reflex from when they were squabbling children, and its usually over minor things. But theirs is anything but a simple supportive relationship. Complicated

 

 

3 The White Tower is the Lights best defense, therefore the Dragon Reborn must be Guided/Directed (Books (8 +)

I've never seen her make that correlation actually. If anything, she pointed out to Moiraine that the Tower breaking was a good thing for Rand. Later, in tPoD, when discussing with Siuan why she believes the Rebellion is necessary, she says that left to herself, Elaida would kidnap Rand and try to destroy the BT (oh how little you knew her). She also sent Logain to Rand when she thought the Tower would take the wrong decision regarding him. None of these are things you do if you think the Tower is better than Rand.

 

Look at how Egwene talks to the Hall and other sitters about Rand in TGS Ch 16. Especially once she is in the White Tower. Like I said, Complicated.

 

4. Rand is going crazy, and crazy isnt trustworthy (whole series)

Whole series? Books 1-3, she is about the only one who ignores the fact that he'll soon go mad, and continues to stand by him. Books 4-6 she's worried, and by 6, she's definitely seeing worrying signs. By the later books, she has been receiving reports of his erratic behavior, but still hopes he's sane. By book 12, she seems to have gotten an idea that his capture by Elaida might well explain some of his irrationality. Never once do we see her think of Rand as untrustworthy.

 

Actually here I was thinking how Rand going crazy was the theme of he whole series, and his worsening problems the last 3-4 books are her concerns that he is too irrational to trust his actions. Not untrustworthy in the sense of deceptive, I meant not dependable - bad word choice on my part. Bu weren't we just arguing whether Egwene shouldn't trust him in his Tar Valon Meeting, and his sanity was a reason to not believe it?

 

5. Rand is treating Aes Sedai poorly, and therefore should be challenged, and perhaps punished (Book 8+)

No, she was worried Rand had compelled Aes Sedai. When Lelaine suggested compelling Asha'man to keep them under control, she threatened punishment then too. This has nothing to do with Rand, and everything to do with Egwene simply abhoring Compulsion.

 

I didnt expressly use the word compulsion, because obviously bonding with the extra bit plays a part here too, which you didn't address. But that's what I meant as well. In WH Ch 26, she already concerned that about rumors about Rand and the Aes Sedai - specifically "I love him too, but I am not trying to heal the White Tower so that he can leash Aes Sedai like Damanae" I find it odd that that Egwene herself, who threatened Sheriam and the council of six in LOC with "Rand mentioning something about oaths of fealty" as a tool of manipulation, immediately goes to Rand=Compulsion? in WH without considering the same possibility actually , but thats besides the point. Later in KOD there is talk of both bonding and oaths of fealty, and she feels that taveren nor being Dragon Reborn is any excuse. And finally in TGS, in Ch 8 she both agrees that the Hall should bound the 47 Ashaman in recompense, but ALSO that its still an atrocity, and Rand must be addressed in the future, even if her wasnt aware.... complicated no?

 

And to be clear, my favorite thing about Egwene is her steadfast attitude about slavery, compulsion, forcible bonding, and the like, and she has a right to be concerned frankly. HOwever, its another complicating factor in her opinion of Rand by TOM - that is ALL that I am saying.

 

Its clear that Egwene cares about Rand, and has the same goals, but her relationship with Rand is not one of simple cooperation. And I think because she had all these varying opinions at varying times, its hard to acknowledge them all, reconcile them, and still have Egwene have a coherent point of view

[putts]

Okay, I'm just gonna throw this question out there ...

 

Who WOULDN'T want to throw Nynaeve into a room with a bunch of rawdy thugs?!

 

 

*evil snicker*

[MasterAblar]

Okay, I'm just gonna throw this question out there ...

 

Who WOULDN'T want to throw Nynaeve into a room with a bunch of rawdy thugs?!

 

 

*evil snicker*

 

I'm pretty sure Nyneave would kick their ass, with or without the Power.

[Daniel Hill]

The Tower is whole and stronger than ever. Elaida's vision is complete. I still think Egwene will die. I will go one step further to say the actual White Tower will be destroyed by the shadow. Its a new age and that relic of the past has no place. There will be no more worthless ajahs. Egwene will die and I will miss her.

[Suttree]

The Tower is whole and stronger than ever. Elaida's vision is complete. I still think Egwene will die. I will go one step further to say the actual White Tower will be destroyed by the shadow. Its a new age and that relic of the past has no place. There will be no more worthless ajahs. Egwene will die and I will miss her.

 

Seeing as how we have references from the 4th age about "Great Arvalon" that is most certainly not the case. Far more likely once the BT is "rent in fire and blood"(Elaida's prophecy is not complete yet) it will be rebuilt on the foundations of Elaida's palace next door to the WT and the two groups will rule together.

 

Also although the WT as an instituion has failed you can hardly call the ajahs worthless. They have done a huge amount of good facing the shadow and guiding the world out of the breaking over the last few thousand years. They will change certainly as men become involved and hopefully shift back towards their original purpose.

[Elan Tedronai]

It's quite frankly amusing to see things that happened in 1995 is still being revisited when AMOL is virtually upon us.

 

In anycase there will be alot of people hoping she persihes and would even begrudge her a last flaming throw of the dice before she dies.

 

But personally i love the gnashing of teeth that happens on this forum everytime egwene is mentioned so i i hope she lives and rules over randland just to see certain people squirm