So, a Dreadlord walks into a bar... [AMOL Prologue spoilers]

[yoniy0]

Yeah, Neo, you're safe. The cover depicts Rand bleeding at SG.

 

Of course, that might not be what the prophecy is referring to; will that sit well with you? His actually bleeding there being a red-herring?

[Morlun]

Seems obvious. Graendal begs for a chance to redeem herself by killing Rand. Shaidar Haran says that that task has been given to another.

 

Then Rand gets pulled into Cyndane's dream, creating a Damsel In Distress scenario. And now apparently Cyndane has exclusive control of the Shadow's best assassin and orders to kill Rand.

 

It may all be a pit of misdirection, but as it is, I'd say that Cyndane is tasked with killing Rand, and executing several plots in order to do so. In fact, what people are suggesting Isam should do with the Samma N'Sei and the Talentless (use them as a diversion), is probably what Cyndane is planning to do with Isam himself. Use him to get an opening at Rand, or use him to earn Rand's trust, and then get an opening at Rand.

 

As for why she is The One Punished Most, maybe she is tortured every other waking hour. Or maybe the Great Lord just knows she's broken.

 

All she ever wanted was Lews Therin. She'd forsake the Dark One for Lews Therin. They were to be together. That was her goal. Now she has nothing. She's out of favour with the Great Lord, once one of the top leaders, now she's just a tool. She played her cards and failed miserably. And the one thing she really wanted, she won't have.

 

There are probably only two things Cyndane really wants right now, which are Rand's death (vengeance), and the Great Lord's (freedom). Since the latter won't happen, she's gonna go for the first. And doom herself to an eternity of suffering.

 

By the way, I know the Forsaken are too self-absorbed to ever consider this, but what would happen if someone would balefire him/herself? The Pattern would unravel? :)

[daavorian]

Why do you think the assassination team is so weak? Slayer is probably the greatest assassin ever...he can literally appear in Rand's tent in the middle of the night and knife him to death and vanish again without anyone ever knowing or feeling a thing. The corrupted aiel are just there to give him support so he can get in the position he needs to pull it off.

 

Slayer himself mentions how weak he is vs. channelers. The Aiel are going to be a hindrance to him, if anything since he can't just pop in out of TAR and if they channel to entire TAR in the flesh they will have to channel to leave it and Rand will feel it and I don't care how good the Red Veils are, they are not going to sneak through an entire camp full of Aiel, Asha'man and Aes Sedai to get to Rand. Not to mention Rand's plot armor... err I mean Ta'veren nature.

 

Well, of course Slayer won't actually get to Rand (unless that is how his blood is supposed to be spilled on Shayol Ghul) but if I were slayer, I'd definitely use the Samma N'Sei and the Talentless as a diversionary tactic, then pop out of T'A'R' on top of Rand myself. Set them up to fail, in a way that takes the eyes of the guards/camp off of Rand for a moment - maybe have them go loudly after Perrin or something. But you're right, taking them with him for the actual strike definitely would be a hindrance.

 

Wait, I'm sorry, if you're Slayer, this is exactly what you don't want to do. His entire advantage is that he can appear suddenly, past all the guards...while Rand is sleeping. A loud diversion would be a terrible idea, because if Rand is awake I give Slayer about a 50% chance of actually doing anything, and and 80% chance of being killed on the spot (well not really because storyline). Now, killing Perrin is fairly important since he is the main bulwark against such a dream attack, given that none of the other dreamers in camp are at all prepared for Slayer, but still...diversion is not what he wants. He wants everyone to think everything is normal so he can just appear in the tent, get all stabby, and then slip away into the dream

 

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, a T'A'R assault is probably too risky anyway. He could go in the wrong tent since the camp probably isn't substantial, so he'd have to flip in and out and risk being vaporized, the camp is crawling with Perrin + Egwene + WO Dreamers, and there's always the chance Rand could be awake in which case everything is screwed. Frankly, Perrin isn't just the dream bulwark, he's also the only bulwark against Luc reappearing and insinuating himself into camp either as himself or as a random nobleman (although Morgase would recognize him and he probably couldn't get close to Rand as a random). So he needs to have Perrin killed or injured or otherwise occupied while he gets close enough to rand to stab him (I suppose no one except Perrin knows Isam either, so that might also work as a way to get in)

[Neophyte]

Yeah, Neo, you're safe. The cover depicts Rand bleeding at SG.

 

Of course, that might not be what the prophecy is referring to; will that sit well with you? His actually bleeding there being a red-herring?

 

Rand al'Thor bleeding out at Shayol Ghul, in some related to what he does to cause or enable the Healing of the Bore/reconstruction of the prison is what I would like to see. Clever loopholes in prophecy are interesting in a limited way, but if prophecy is nothing but vaguely worded deception, then what's the point?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Meh, I don't think Rand will die via this Prophecy. He will die, just not with the "blood on the rocks".

 

That said, I think the bleeding out will happen at Shayol Ghul, not some random twist with technicalities, but I don't think he will die of it.

 

It is the sort of thing that RJ would do. Everyone, Rand foremost, thinks that the prophecy means he will die here, and it is just like RJ for that to be a misinterpretation.

 

Again, that said, I wouldn't be surprised if he does die there either.

[TheAngryDruid]

For me, the key elements are as follows.

 

1) The Description. It doesn't fit any of the female Chosen alive (Moggy, Graendal, or Cyndane). The fact that they look at their own reflection and don't like it, and the fact that Isam doesn't recognize them points to one of two things: a Chosen in disguise, or a new female Chosen (maybe it is the livery they despise, not the appearance). Still, I think the latter is by far the lesser possibility.

 

2) So, A Chosen in disguise. Why would a Chosen carrying out Moridin's plan need a disguise? Just come as who you are and make the order. I haven't seen anyone address this point. Sorry if I missed it. Last we heard, Moridin wasn't too keen on Rand being killed, since they are linked. Maybe that has changed since the LB is so close now. But even so, if it IS Moridin's will, why disguise your appearance? And why disguise your appearance, but yet still wear Moridin's colors? The only answer I can think of is to appear that you are doing Moridin's will, but in fact are not, thus, if the order is found out, Moridin won't be sure who gave it.

 

3) So, who has a reason, both to go behind Moridin's back and kill Rand? Graendal seems most likely. Both Cyndane and Demandred want to kill Rand themselves, if Cyndane does want him dead at all. Graendal, we know, isn't above plotting to get rid of Moridin. If she could do both, get back at Moridin for putting her in an ugly body, and kill Rand (which would be a path for her to reclaim favor, get a new body, and maybe be Nae'bliss herself) then I think she'd take it.

 

Cyndane is also a possibility, but it just doens't make too much sense to me. If it is her, why give you least trustworthy servant the task of killing Rand? Especially given her past feelings for him? Plus, if she is on a task for the DO, then why would she disguise her appearance? No need. Last, if she wants Rand dead, I think she'd want to do it herself. Of course, she may have changed her mind now that she is somewhat weaker in the Power than she used to be.

 

My take, it is either Graendal making a play for revenge on Rand and Moridin why also going for Nae'bliss herself by killing Rand. If it is Lanfear, I think she is playing both sides of the board, again.

[Suttree]

All she ever wanted was Lews Therin. She'd forsake the Dark One for Lews Therin. They were to be together. That was her goal. Now she has nothing. She's out of favour with the Great Lord, once one of the top leaders, now she's just a tool. She played her cards and failed miserably. And the one thing she really wanted, she won't have.

 

I saw someone else say she turned because she was scorned and this isn't true. She cared about the "association" with LTT because it brought her prestige but all she ever wanted was power. The very same character flaws that led her to not earning a third name where those that made her "ripe for the plucking" to the shadow and they existed long before LTT.

 

BWB

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time, and that Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself.

 

RJ

Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love—not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted—wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

[clu7ch]

It's Harriet. she was pissed that RJ didn't tell her about the town in the blight full of Aiel channelers who'd been turned after going to the blight to meet their death, and she wanted to see it for herself.

 

She's definitely as hard as Moridin, and probably the most powerful female in the universe.

[MarkDiLillo]

We'll see how it all shakes out in the last book, but I feel like Lanfear was one of the most wasted characters in WoT. She had the possibility to be so insanely deep and awesome and instead is just a shallow psycho bitch that serves the shadow.

[Morlun]

One question: Moridin himself states that "There are too few of us."

 

Yeah, Chosen have been wiped out, with Bel'al, Rahvin, Asmodean, Semirhage and Balthamel/Aran'gar balefired and beyond retrieval, Meesana's mind being broken (and I assume beyond recovery) and Sammael's soul being tainted by Mashadar and unwise to retrieve.

 

That leaves Ishamael/Moridin, Lanfear/Cyndane, Moghedien, Graendal/Hessalam, Demandred and M'Hael.

 

But why, oh why, hasn't the Great Lord brought back Aginor/Osan'gar? They are too few, Moridin said. Granted, Aginor got himself killed twice, but still, he didn't mess things up as spectacularly as others. He was never a field general, he was a scientist, and the creation of darkspawn is probably the biggest thing any single Forsaken ever did for the Shadow.

 

At the very least, he'd merit a second ressurection, even if he got mindtrapped or something like that... but no, apparently he just fell through the cracks.

 

I know the irony of him being killed by a Black sister was the point, but still, if RJ didn't plan to bring him back, he should have had someone balefire him or something.

[MarkDiLillo]

I think the author was just using the "too few" line as an introduction and half reason to introduce Taim and raise him to Forsaken.

 

Aginor didn't get another chance because he was a loser. He literally did nothing of value for the shadow since the AoL and proved himself to be totally incompetent. Why bring him back? He brought nothing to the table. The guy brought an assload to the table back in the AoL, but that was then and this is now.

[MarkDiLillo]

I am actually curious if bringing Graendal back was Brandons suggestion or part of RJs plan. Her name being in the Old Tongue suggests RJ, but it really seems a little late to bring her back and there is already so much going on that needs wrapped up I can only wonder if she could possibly have a purpose worthy of her resurrection given the short time left in the series.

[daavorian]

Clearly Aginor has just been put inside Taim...

 

 

(please don't throw rocks at me)

[Sharaman]

Perhaps the special conditions prevailing at the Cleansing with tonnes of OP and Mashadar and Taint mixing around and channeler tossing crap at each other in industrial quantities precludes the GLoD being able to retrieve Aginor?

[Morlun]

I think the author was just using the "too few" line as an introduction and half reason to introduce Taim and raise him to Forsaken.

 

It might have been so, but it's still true nonetheless.

 

Aginor didn't get another chance because he was a loser. He literally did nothing of value for the shadow since the AoL and proved himself to be totally incompetent. Why bring him back? He brought nothing to the table. The guy brought an assload to the table back in the AoL, but that was then and this is now.

 

Okay, but by that reasoning, why be mad that Graendal killed Asmodean and got Aran'gar killed beyond recovery? Asmodean betrayed the Shadow, and Aran'gar was a loser as well. Yet it is implied that they would have been returned, or at least that they were valued alive. Why bring back Cyndane when she betrayed the Shadow? Why not kill Moghedien and Graendal for their spectacular failures? Even Alviarin was marked for protection.

 

I get that Aginor failed in what he was tasked to do, but he didn't do that much worse than the other Forsaken. At the very least, he could have been a tool directly in the hands of another, given no free will and initiative at all, and he'd still be more useful than a random Dreadlord without AoL knowledge.

 

I'm not advocating that Aginor was this successful badass, just that he didn't merit exclusion, since most of the others are also f***-ups and are kept around (or Shaidar Haran wishes they could have been kept around), and, in fact, there are too few of them. It truly seems wasteful.

 

I just don't like the fact that, off-screen, the Dark One just went "Meh, I think I'll pass." when Aginor's soul when by him, and we don't get a single line to at least tell us so. An off-hand remark stating that "The Lord does not forgive those who get themselves killed twice," or some other "I'm really evil" reasoning, or even a perfectly reasonable plot explanation like this:

 

Perhaps the special conditions prevailing at the Cleansing with tonnes of OP and Mashadar and Taint mixing around and channeler tossing crap at each other in industrial quantities precludes the GLoD being able to retrieve Aginor?

 

... I dunno, something.

 

Because as it is, it seems like the Dark One decided to waste a perfectly useful and rare resource. With an explanation, that is a decision (good or bad, that is open to interpretation) or an unfortunate (for Aginor) consequence. Without one, it is a plot-hole. Not a major one, but not something I'd like to mentally fill-in by myself.

 

Clearly Aginor has just been put inside Taim...

 

 

(please don't throw rocks at me)

 

Taimangor?

[2RiversFan]

I imagine a clue that may point to which forsaken is in disguise may be from personal habits that are shown. You can disguise everything visually and audibly, but you forget about your own personal habits:

 

"Isam covered a grimace at the pain and bowed his head. The woman left him kneeling and took a seat at his table. She tapped a finger on the side of the tin cup for a few moments, staring at its contents, and did not speak."

 

 

 

Which forsaken has that habit? I recall seeing that habit from someone before, but I don't recall which character... and I don't have the books in any form that will allow me to search for it.

 

My gut feel is that the clues towards it being Cyndane are red herrings, but at the same time I won't be surprised if the character that has a habit of tapping a finger on cups turns out to be Lanfear/Cyndane.

 

From The Towers of Midnight, the Chapter "Questioning Intentions", hardcover book page 124. The scene is in Perrins camp, where Morgase is serving tea to Perrin and a few of his followers.

 

"Morgase continued past Masuri; the Aes Sedai liked her cup refilled only when she tapped on it lightly with a fingernail".

 

Is it coincidence that Masuri could seem so similar to the word Misery? I know there has been some speculation that there are Black Sisters in Perrins camp. Maybe this fits, maybe it does not, but Jordan did give his characters appropriate names in many occasions. Mydrraal. Murder all. Demandred. Demand dread. Masuri....misery?

 

Masuri / misery is one I hadn't caught - good one. However, I don't see that instance of Masuri tapping on a teacup to have a servant fill it as being a idiosyncrasy, she's merely signalling for more tea. Personally I think her misery will be in some other direction. Besides, I don't think Isam could be fooled by a non-Forsaken, but what do I know?

 

I borrowed my daughter's tablet and was able to conduct my own searches as well - I found 1 instance of Graendal tapping her fingers on a marble railing in LoC - but one time doesn't make it a habit. I found the Mesaana bit that Yonio and Neophyte cited, but the character I mentioned remembering having the habit turned out to be Suroth - she does it many times throughout the series.

 

TBH I had been harboring a hope that it would turn out that either Ishamael or Taim had that habit... but at any rate it was a dead end.

[yoniy0]

But why, oh why, hasn't the Great Lord brought back Aginor/Osan'gar?

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced we don't know for sure that he hasn't. Brandon's reaction to a question made me think he's evading an answer.

 

Now, I'm not saying he's definitely out there. Just that we can't rule that out, as we have.

[MarkDiLillo]

Moridin's statement in the prologue about how they (four) are the only ones left seem to rule that out though.

[Ananta]

To me the theory that it's Lanfear sending them out as a warning sounds plausible, though I do wonder why she would do it. Maybe she thinks that it's her "get out of jail -card" if shadow gets owned... I'unno. It also could be the reason she's being punished the most.

[Dollhouse]

Sammael's soul being tainted by Mashadar and unwise to retrieve.

Even if it was unwise, unless it was impossible to do so, I don't think the Great Lord would let Sammael's soul rest peacefully. I.E Sammael probably has been resurrected and he might even survive the final battle and never be found out. It's likely he was stuck into the Black Tower...

 

Still, you raise an interesting point... what happens to souls touched and killed by Mashadar? I'd wager a guess that if Mashadar "eats" them, then they find themselves becoming a part of Mashadar... but if such a soul was ripped away from Mashadar by the Great Lord... who would have the greatest control over them? The Great Lord or Mashadar? In the case of Fain it was Mashadar but that only happened after a lot of struggling and only because Fain's soul merged with Mordeth and even got additional help from the dagger.

 

There are probably only two things Cyndane really wants right now, which are Rand's death (vengeance), and the Great Lord's (freedom). Since the latter won't happen, she's gonna go for the first. And doom herself to an eternity of suffering.

Considering that the wheel keeps on turning it is very unlikely that she would be doomed for "eternity". Unless she manages the feat of getting sealed up together with the great Lord, she should be reincarnated normally next time she is spun out. Only reason why people are still in the service right now ever after their deaths is because the Great Lord is free.

 

What would happen if someone would balefire him/herself? The Pattern would unravel? :)

It was suggested that it WOULD have unraveled if Rand had balefired HIMSELF while using that great SA-Angreal. First of all Rand is a VERY important thread so his balefiring would affect more than others... and apart from that using that giant SA-Anreal would likely have ripped him out at least an hour before his death. That said, don't forget that everyone was running around balefiring each other in the age of legends and that Rand even balefires a whole castle without the pattern breaking. So it would likely take a couple of hundred important people being balefired very quickly for the pattern to unravel.

 

I am actually curious if bringing Graendal back was Brandons suggestion or part of RJs plan. Her name being in the Old Tongue suggests RJ, but it really seems a little late to bring her back and there is already so much going on that needs wrapped up I can only wonder if she could possibly have a purpose worthy of her resurrection given the short time left in the series.

If it was RJ, then she was brought back as a "joke/punishment". There was never any need to kill her, she could have easily been mindtrapped while still alive after all. Killing her and putting her in a REALLY ugly body however is a great joke. :D

 

It follows the theme of how the Chosen's punishments by the Great Lord are specific to their "sins".

 

AGINOR: Thought himself extraordinary and a genius. He was put in the most PLAIN body ever; It wasn't even ugly.

 

BELIAL: he LOVED beautiful women and saw them as fluff and toys. He was put into a body that made him look like a TOTAL fluff who's only use was sex.

 

LANFEAR; She was VERY proud of herself and how she looked. Her beauty was very regal and queenly. Lanfear was put into body of a very young VERY short and very cute girl. I.E she wanted to be taken seriously and now she looks like a cute doll of a girl.

 

GREANDAL: Loved flaunting herself ect ect but now she is EXTREMELY ugly and has nothing to flaunt.

 

Why be mad that Graendal killed Asmodean and got Aran'gar killed beyond recovery? Asmodean betrayed the Shadow, and Aran'gar was a loser as well.

In Asmodean's case I believe it was a matter of Greandal doing something the Great Lord could not undo without his permission.

 

As for Arangar -- calling her a loser is uncalled for -- in fact she was one of the more successful during this new age. She only got found out by chance and it wasn't really anything she did wrong.

 

 

Why bring back Cyndane when she betrayed the Shadow?

Because Lews Therin still oves her (no matter what he claims, his reaction to her proved it). Also it is likely Moridin wanted this because he knows how Lews feels... and well... her way of thinking is pretty simple so it is easy to trick her into doing what you want.

 

Why not kill Moghedien and Graendal for their spectacular failures?

In Moghedien's case, keeping her alive and afraid of being killed is more effective and more of a punishment/torture. In Greandal's case... well, Greandal WAS killed.

 

Even Alviarin was marked for protection.

Alviarin was marked for protection both as a way of punishing Meesana but also as an effective way of making her work even harder.

 

get that Aginor failed in what he was tasked to do, but he didn't do that much worse than the other Forsaken.

It isn't that he failed that is the problem, it is that he is terrible at doing ANYTHING but creating Shadow-spawn. Why waste time and perfectly good bodies at resurrecting a guy that is no better than cannonfodder?

 

Given no free will and initiative at all, and he'd still be more useful than a random Dreadlord without AoL knowledge.

The mindtrap doesn't take control away from the people trapped by them unless the trap is broken... it is doubtful that anyone that has their mindtrap broken will be able to do anything.

 

To me the theory that it's Lanfear sending them out as a warning sounds plausible, though I do wonder why she would do it. Maybe she thinks that it's her "get out of jail -card" if shadow gets owned...

Maybe she thinks this but I think the only way she would avoid getting punished again would be if Lews/Rand doesn't reveal who she was/is to other people.

[Morlun]

But why, oh why, hasn't the Great Lord brought back Aginor/Osan'gar?

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced we don't know for sure that he hasn't. Brandon's reaction to a question made me think he's evading an answer.

 

Now, I'm not saying he's definitely out there. Just that we can't rule that out, as we have.

 

Hmm... reading into what he said, I'm more convinced we'll never get an answer. :)

 

Sammael's soul being tainted by Mashadar and unwise to retrieve.

Even if it was unwise, unless it was impossible to do so, I don't think the great lord would let Sammael's soul rest peacefully. I.E Sammael probably has been resurrected and he might even survive the final battle and never be found out. It's likely he was stuck in the Black Tower...

 

Still, you raise an interesting point... what happens to souls touched and killed by Mashadar? I'd wager a guess that if Mashadar "eats" them, then they find themselves becoming a part of Mashadar... but if such a soul was ripped away from Mashadar by the great lord... who would have the greatest control over them? The Great Lord or Mashadar? In the case of Fain it was Mashadar but that only happened after a lot of struggling and only because Fain's soul merged with Mordeth and even got additional help from the dagger.

 

According to Robert Jordan (someone should have the quote), Sammael's soul was tainted by Mashadar, and the opposite nature of both evils would have made it a very bad idea for the Dark Lord to touch it.

 

Why be mad that Graendal killed Asmodean and got Aran'gar killed beyond recovery? Asmodean betrayed the Shadow, and Aran'gar was a loser as well.

In Asmodean's case I believe it was a matter of Greandal doing something the Great Lord could not undo without his permission.

 

As for Arangar -- calling her a loser is uncalled for -- in fact she was one of the more successful during this new age. She only got found out by chance and wasn't really anything she did wrong.

 

Well, Balthamel got killed by a tree. Then he was brought back as a she, and infiltrated the Rebel Aes Sedai in order to prevent the reunion of the White Tower. She commanded rebel sisters of power (including at least a Sitter and the Keeper), murdered Egwene's attendants, got really close to Egwene, gave her headaches, and still managed fail at controlling the Rebel Aes Sedai (in comparison, Meesana made a much better job in the White Tower, and she broke the Tower in the first place - though Fain's touch did exacerbate Elaida's paranoia).

 

She had a Ta'veren (Mat) within her reach and did not act on it. She let her most important asset, her identity as a female Saidin channeler, be discovered at the Cleansing (she could have disguised herself as a man), and due to that she got discovered by the Rebel Aes Sedai and had to run away and ask Graendal for sanctuary. And then she let her guard down with another Forsaken (the first Forsaken to actually do so, when every Forsaken POV hammers down the point that they are vipers waiting to kill each other) and got balefired.

 

Maybe "loser" was too strong, but other than a few piled-up bodies, she failed to accomplish anything remotely important. Just like Aginor / Osan'gar. And now that I think of it...

 

Ishmael / Moridin is the general. Be'lal took Tear. Sammael Illian. Rahvin Caemlyn. Graendal Tarabon and Arad Doman. Meesana the White Tower. Semirhage Seanchan. Demandred who knows, but something important. Balthamel / Aran'gar failed in his task and died. Aginor / Osan'gar failed in his task and died. Moghedien failed in her task and lives being punished. Asmodean betrayed the Shadow and died. Lanfear betrayed the Shadow and lives being punished.

 

Shaidar Haran berated Graendal for being responsible for the loss of two Forsaken, so it stands to reason that Asmodean and Aran'gar would have been brought back had the Dark Lord been able to - though their fates would probably had been different (New Asmodean would probably envy Cyndane's treatment).