[Full Prologue Spoilers] slayer

[Niniel]

I just loved this scene. It was great to read about Isam´s thoughts and feelings. Finally some information about the Town and the red veiled aiel. I hope we will get to learn even more about all of them later in the book. A lot of things in the books has to do with Gitara´s foretellings so it will be interesting to see what role Luc will play.

[Luckers]

Luc's fame and fate are still undiscovered.

 

Gitara wasn't evil. She wouldn't send Luc there specifically for him to get caught up with Isam. Luc still has a part to play. He was sent there to do some service for Rand.

 

So the question now is, would Luc kill his nephew? Rand has been noted to have look of Tigraine.

 

This is Luc's thought in Winter's Hears Chapter 22: "He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench"

[snooze1128]

I'm really not sure where it falls in the chronology. There are only three remaining Female Foresaken -- Moggy, Lan/Cyn and Gre/Ha. We know its not Moggy, because Slayer would recognize her. We know its not Gre/Ha because the woman is pretty. Therefore, it can only be Lanfear/Cyndane.

 

The last we saw of Lanfear/Cyndane was in Rand's dream, where she was being tortured by the GLotD (we presume).

 

It's not clear what her transgression was to be tortured considering the fact that she was obviously free post-Rand's awakening on Dragonmount and post-Slayer/Perrin's confrontation.

 

Perhaps, the orders she gave to Slayer were the reasons for her latest imprisonment. Perhaps the GLotD needs that confrontation with the Dragon as much as the Light does?

It's absolutely Cyndane. Isam thinks to himself that the coldness of her voice is rivaled only by that of Moridin, and it's long been known in tWoT that Lanfear was 2nd only to Ishmael in terms of channeling strength.

Reading through that section, though, I'm wondering if Cyndane wants Rand killed for other reasons than the DO wants her killed. Is it possible she's aware of the Dark One's master plan and (given her prior obsession with Lewis Therrin) would rather he die in a straight-forward manner than see him 13x13'd or something...

[TristanWebb]

I think it might be Alviarin. Last we saw of her she was still looking in every mirror she could find to try to see the mark, and we know there are new Chosen around. It matches IMO as much as Lanfear does.

[Guest DLakin01]

@BenevolentCow: It can't be Alviarin, the woman (probably Cyndane/Lanfear) refers to Rand as "Lews Therin." Alviarin wouldn't call him that, and that's been a habit of Lanfear's since the beginning.

[Neophyte]

@BenevolentCow: It can't be Alviarin, the woman (probably Cyndane/Lanfear) refers to Rand as "Lews Therin." Alviarin wouldn't call him that, and that's been a habit of Lanfear's since the beginning.

 

Actually, the Chosen in question switches back and forth, something that the Graeffalump has done for a while. She only calls him "Lews Therin" once: when she says that he would sense a trap. Every other time she calls him "al'Thor."

 

Besides, Cyndane is trying to draw him to her. Setting Isam to hunt him doesn't square with Cyndane's appearance in Rand's dream at all.

[snooze1128]

I think it might be Alviarin. Last we saw of her she was still looking in every mirror she could find to try to see the mark, and we know there are new Chosen around. It matches IMO as much as Lanfear does.

Very interesting, I had to look this up again: the mark given by SH makes it so other DFs can recognize you for who you are. A nice Robert Jordan quote: "this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others." We know both Alviarin and Cyndane have the mark, and I think the red veiled Aeil assigned to Isam have been 13x13'd, so they're basically bound to follow the woman's orders.

So yes, it's possible we're dealing with Alviarin, but again, the Lews Therin reference deters me from believing its anyone except Cyndane.

Also, I'm going to maintain my "Cynane is still in love with Lews Therin theory" and say that Cyndane was looking at herself in the liquid reflection for two reasons:

a) She's still not used to her new body, which is surely less beautiful than Lanfear's, I would think.

b) She's reconsidering her position as a DF. I'm liking this to a stripper standing in front of a mirror before her night shift, wondering to herself whether this is something she wants to be for the rest of her life... Awesome simile, don't you think? :P

[b3arz3rg3r]

It's absolutely Cyndane. Isam thinks to himself that the coldness of her voice is rivaled only by that of Moridin, and it's long been known in tWoT that Lanfear was 2nd only to Ishmael in terms of channeling strength.

Reading through that section, though, I'm wondering if Cyndane wants Rand killed for other reasons than the DO wants her killed. Is it possible she's aware of the Dark One's master plan and (given her prior obsession with Lewis Therrin) would rather he die in a straight-forward manner than see him 13x13'd or something...

 

Not that I doubt it's Cyndane, but since when was Lanfear second in terms of channelling strength? We know that she was the strongest woman, but there is no comparison anywhere which puts her above Demandred or any of the stronger men. We can only say with confidence that she was stronger than Asmodean and Balthamel. From the power relation we know of in terms of strength on average two women match one man though the women have advantages with their weaves which make up for atleast some of that power difference. The rest is made up by their ability to link. That is according to Asmodean, who while not usually a very trustworthy source appeared to be talking of what was considered general knowledge in the AOL so he should be accurate in this case. Lanfear as the strongest woman of her era should still be considerably weaker in terms of pure strength than LTT and Ishy who were the strongest men of their era. And Demandred was supposedly only a small step behind them.

Besides after her trip to Sindhol she's considerably weaker than she originally was.

[Neophyte]

It's absolutely Cyndane. Isam thinks to himself that the coldness of her voice is rivaled only by that of Moridin, and it's long been known in tWoT that Lanfear was 2nd only to Ishmael in terms of channeling strength.

Reading through that section, though, I'm wondering if Cyndane wants Rand killed for other reasons than the DO wants her killed. Is it possible she's aware of the Dark One's master plan and (given her prior obsession with Lewis Therrin) would rather he die in a straight-forward manner than see him 13x13'd or something...

 

Not that I doubt it's Cyndane, but since when was Lanfear second in terms of channelling strength? We know that she was the strongest woman, but there is no comparison anywhere which puts her above Demandred or any of the stronger men. We can only say with confidence that she was stronger than Asmodean and Balthamel. From the power relation we know of in terms of strength on average two women match one man though the women have advantages with their weaves which make up for atleast some of that power difference. The rest is made up by their ability to link. That is according to Asmodean, who while not usually a very trustworthy source appeared to be talking of what was considered general knowledge in the AOL so he should be accurate in this case. Lanfear as the strongest woman of her era should still be considerably weaker in terms of pure strength than LTT and Ishy who were the strongest men of their era. And Demandred was supposedly only a small step behind them.

Besides after her trip to Sindhol she's considerably weaker than she originally was.

 

The BWB suggests that Lanfear, in her original state, was the most powerful of the female Forsaken, and perhaps the most powerful of all, save Ishamael. However, the BWB can be unreliable, at times. Also, being called "powerful" could include an assessment of skill with the Power, not just raw strength. More and more it seems that, in the top echelons of strength, skill matters far more than a little extra oomph. It does seem unlikely that Lanfear was a match for any of the top male channelers in raw strength.

 

Also, for snooze1128 ... why would strength in the Power equate to relative coldness in the voice?

[Suttree]

Not that I doubt it's Cyndane, but since when was Lanfear second in terms of channelling strength? We know that she was the strongest woman, but there is no comparison anywhere which puts her above Demandred or any of the stronger men. We can only say with confidence that she was stronger than Asmodean and Balthamel.

 

There are some contradictory statements on the issue. They may have gotten that idea from the BWB...

 

LANFEAR

The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael, was Lanfear, “Daughter of the Night” in the Old Tongue.

 

Think it is safe to say Aginor and Demy are both stronger however.

 

Edit: Neo beat me to it...

[Tenesmus]

Anyone else think the 'child" that Isam saw hiding in the shadows was actually Padan Fain?

[TootThatHorn]

Anyone else think the 'child" that Isam saw hiding in the shadows was actually Padan Fain?

 

That's what I initially thought, but then reading his description, I'm guessing RJ wanted to show a human side of Slayer.

[Duskfire]

Luc's fame and fate are still undiscovered.

 

Gitara wasn't evil. She wouldn't send Luc there specifically for him to get caught up with Isam. Luc still has a part to play. He was sent there to do some service for Rand.

 

Its entirely possible Luc/Isam has already played his part. By going to the Two Rivers with a crapload of Trollocs, Perrin was forced to band everyone together and eventually become the Lord of TR and establish an extremely effective army. Also without Slayer, Perrin most likely wouldnt have become as powerful in TAR as he is now.

[MountaineerWV]

Luc's fame and fate are still undiscovered.

 

Gitara wasn't evil. She wouldn't send Luc there specifically for him to get caught up with Isam. Luc still has a part to play. He was sent there to do some service for Rand.

 

Its entirely possible Luc/Isam has already played his part. By going to the Two Rivers with a crapload of Trollocs, Perrin was forced to band everyone together and eventually become the Lord of TR and establish an extremely effective army. Also without Slayer, Perrin most likely wouldnt have become as powerful in TAR as he is now.

 

I could almost buy that...but was it not Fain that left the message that he was going to harrow the TR to the ground? Fain was also the on that killed Perrin's family. Fain had a larger impact than Isam/Luc.

 

The fact that we have an Isam POV tells me he as a bigger part to play - the one for that Luc was sent to the Blight.

[Neophyte]

Luc's fame and fate are still undiscovered.

 

Gitara wasn't evil. She wouldn't send Luc there specifically for him to get caught up with Isam. Luc still has a part to play. He was sent there to do some service for Rand.

 

Its entirely possible Luc/Isam has already played his part. By going to the Two Rivers with a crapload of Trollocs, Perrin was forced to band everyone together and eventually become the Lord of TR and establish an extremely effective army. Also without Slayer, Perrin most likely wouldnt have become as powerful in TAR as he is now.

 

I could almost buy that...but was it not Fain that left the message that he was going to harrow the TR to the ground? Fain was also the on that killed Perrin's family. Fain had a larger impact than Isam/Luc.

 

The fact that we have an Isam POV tells me he as a bigger part to play - the one for that Luc was sent to the Blight.

 

This is what we know of what Gitara said - from Lord of Chaos chapter 16:

 

"After Luc rode north, never to return, whispers said Gitara had convinced him that his fame lay in the Blight, or his fate."

 

So it's his fame ... or his fate. I'd say meeting Isam, getting soul-squished, and becoming Slayer qualifies as finding his fate in the Blight.

[Suttree]

This is what we know of what Gitara said - from Lord of Chaos chapter 16:

 

"After Luc rode north, never to return, whispers said Gitara had convinced him that his fame lay in the Blight, or his fate."

 

So it's his fame ... or his fate. I'd say meeting Isam, getting soul-squished, and becoming Slayer qualifies as finding his fate in the Blight.

 

Or...

 

LoC

Others said it was that he would find the Dragon Reborn there, or that the Last Battle depended on him going.

 

My guess is on the bolded.

[MarkDiLillo]

I wonder if its possible that Gitara was black ajah and part of this whole sequence of events was orchestrated by Ishamael. Or possibly she was innocent and just manipulated by Ishamael.

[Neophyte]

This is what we know of what Gitara said - from Lord of Chaos chapter 16:

 

"After Luc rode north, never to return, whispers said Gitara had convinced him that his fame lay in the Blight, or his fate."

 

So it's his fame ... or his fate. I'd say meeting Isam, getting soul-squished, and becoming Slayer qualifies as finding his fate in the Blight.

 

Or...

 

LoC

Others said it was that he would find the Dragon Reborn there, or that the Last Battle depended on him going.

 

My guess is on the bolded.

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive, so ...

 

Of course, that could already have been fulfilled too. Luc left, which might have helped Gitara to convince Tigraine to leave, which led directly to Rand's conception, which leads to the Last Battle.

 

Slayer probably does have more of a role to play. My only point was that he doesn't have to do any more to justify the little we know of the rumored substance of Gitara's Foretelling.

[Duskfire]

I could almost buy that...but was it not Fain that left the message that he was going to harrow the TR to the ground? Fain was also the on that killed Perrin's family. Fain had a larger impact than Isam/Luc.

 

The fact that we have an Isam POV tells me he as a bigger part to play - the one for that Luc was sent to the Blight.

 

Fain got Perrin to Two Rivers, but it was the Trollocs presence that forced Perrin to take up a leadership position and organise the defenses and whatnot, and show his mark as a commander.

 

I agree that Slayer does have a larger role to play, but he has been as responsible for the evolution of Perrins character almost as much as Faile and Hopper.

 

I wonder if its possible that Gitara was black ajah and part of this whole sequence of events was orchestrated by Ishamael. Or possibly she was innocent and just manipulated by Ishamael.

 

Dont know why that needs to be the case; there is no evidence that either exists. The Pattern is neutral; if it needed Luc there for whatever reason, then having this Foretelling take place doesnt make Gitara good or evil.

[MarkDiLillo]

I was thinking more along a grander scale. Maybe the pattern didn't need Luc at all. Maybe half of the "prophecies" are manipulations by Ishamael over 3,000 years.

[Maleshub]

I was thinking more along a grander scale. Maybe the pattern didn't need Luc at all. Maybe half of the "prophecies" are manipulations by Ishamael over 3,000 years.

 

Did Gitara send Luc to the Blight based on a Foretelling? If so, Foretellings cannot be manipulated by Ishmael. They are a tool of the Pattern.

[Suttree]

Did Gitara send Luc to the Blight based on a Foretelling? If so, Foretellings cannot be manipulated by Ishmael. They are a tool of the Pattern.

 

Yes she did...

[Neophyte]

Did Gitara send Luc to the Blight based on a Foretelling? If so, Foretellings cannot be manipulated by Ishmael. They are a tool of the Pattern.

 

Yes she did...

 

Well ... she is said to have. We don't have a firsthand account from anyone, much less the text of her Foretelling or what she actually said to him.

[Suttree]

Did Gitara send Luc to the Blight based on a Foretelling? If so, Foretellings cannot be manipulated by Ishmael. They are a tool of the Pattern.

 

Yes she did...

 

Well ... she is said to have. We don't have a firsthand account from anyone, much less the text of her Foretelling or what she actually said to him.

 

That is correct of course, although I haven't ever seen anyone really dispute it nor have I seen an alternate explanation for why she would have sent him. Knowing what we do about her not sure what reason there is to question it.

[Neophyte]

Did Gitara send Luc to the Blight based on a Foretelling? If so, Foretellings cannot be manipulated by Ishmael. They are a tool of the Pattern.

 

Yes she did...

 

Well ... she is said to have. We don't have a firsthand account from anyone, much less the text of her Foretelling or what she actually said to him.

 

That is correct of course, although I haven't ever seen anyone really dispute it nor have I seen an alternate explanation for why she would have sent him. Knowing what we do about her not sure what reason there is to question it.

 

True enough - I don't doubt that she sent him either, I'm just saying that all of the reports are so far from the source that speculating on her motives or possible sources of manipulation is, well, almost literally pointless. The evidence is so vague and hearsayish that I could come up with an argument supporting almost any position. So, this is pretty much down to just expressing opinions.