CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Terez]

Slayer

 

Like

 

I pretty much loved this PoV. Loved Isam, the glimpses into his history, the sense of his personality, his pain. Indeed the chapter left me feeling sorry for him. I loved the Samma N'sei. After TofM I was expecting them to be monster caricatures not much different from Trollocs, but there was a three dimensionality to the Town, and life there that rounded them nicely so that they felt like humans might, in those conditions--set off beautifully by that short little comment about them not returning when the 13x13 go by because they obviously have strong feelings about it.

 

For the record, Luckers called this one. My chat log from yesterday:

 

Luckers

10:56

im thinking the slayer scene was the jordan scene

it could have fitted in the original prologue, minus a bit of tweaking

Terez

10:56

yeah, it's possible, but I got the impression no one knew about that until after he'd quit writing altogether

Luckers

10:57

it reads pretty smooth

 

And then I changed the subject because there was a lot going on at once. Today Brandon confirmed RJ wrote that scene.

 

Thoughts

 

First thought was that its apparent that not all the Samma N'sei are Turned--so obviously some must be just darkfriends. Furthermore there appear to be Aiel fighters amongst the Talentless--darkfriends like Melindhra, or descendents of the Samma N'sei (the latter seems the most likely). I wonder if its possible these Talentless were the Aiel that attacked Mat, and maybe even were behind the murdering of the Tinker caravan... warn the dragon reborn there are a bunch on murderous, monstrous Aiel darkfriends about seems a reasonable message to a man in charge of the Aiel, but more than that killing the Lost Ones fits VERY nicely with Isam's comments about everything in the Town being a twisted imitation of the Aiel.

 

I would say that the Talentless Aiel probably attacked Mat's camp, and one of the Samma N'Sei made their gateway, and the Samma N'Sei attacked the Tinker caravan (they like to kill non-channelers with knives). RJ wanted the reader to think it was Aiel, because this was after the Aiel-Tinker revelation and the Aiel were running the same way the Band was marching, so there were always some of them passing by. I'm guessing the Talentless can be Aiel or non-Aiel, since Isam thought of Moridin in that context.

 

Cyndane was interesting too, in the position she takes her, the one she takes with Rand, and the way Moridin refers to her as still being punished and still holding her cour'souvra in Moghedien's PoV. Of particular interest is the fact that she seems to feel that she has the Great Lord's approval in what she does--but at the same time, feels uncertain.

 

I don't really know if 'uncertain' is the word I would use. Distracted? Yes. She was looking at her reflection in Slayer's cup. She's uncertain whether she still has the tools she needs to do what she does best. And I'm glad it's finally confirmed that she actually died. And that Moridin was the one to rescue her, personally. Somehow I like Moridin more for not sending someone else to do that task. (I liked him before.) And for what he did to accomplish it. I always liked the idea that he killed her to get her out, and I'd love to hear the story of how that went down.

 

But anyway, back to reading her emotions, why was she revolted at having to use Slayer? Because she doesn't actually want Rand to die? I suppose it's possible, but it didn't seem that way when she was telling Slayer to kill him. I mean, she didn't have to get all poetic about how badly she wants him to suffer. She could be there on orders, including the flowery pain language, and secretly not wanting Rand to die. Or she could be there against orders, worried she'll get caught, and the revulsion has some other explanation.

 

And I do wonder what Moridin was up to--provided he wasn't just there to allow Isam to show the reader how badass he is, and if that was the case well fair enough--it was done smoothly, with elegence.

 

Yeah, I also wondered what he was up to. Maybe something to do with the Turning. Maybe just to demonstrate that 1) Forsaken are rare sights in the Town, as demonstrated by the reaction to Moridin, and 2) if anyone is in charge of these guys, it's Moridin. In other words, it's not Demandred's army.

 

Leilwin

 

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Loved getting back in Leilwin's head, and seeing the struggle between her knowledge, her honour and her duty to the Empire. Her facing the truth about what she did in handing the Domination Band (whilst admittedly, was a little heavy handed) was fitting with her continuity of character.

 

Pretty much my thoughts on that bit, though I would add awkwardness to heavy-handedness.

 

Where this PoV ends does seem to support the interpretation of the dream of the hard faced woman handing Egwene a collar and a bracelet of an a'dam as being Leilwin--though frankly I hope its a red herring coz I still love my idea of it being Fortuona. Lol. Terez will enjoy this comment. My other thought is that Leilwin may be in a good position to reintroduce Egwene to Seta and Bethamin (who, lets not forget, did train Egwene too during her time as a damane) which is a scene I've been waiting to see since CoT

 

At first when I saw your comment (I have a tendency to try to take in a whole paragraph at a glance before actually reading it; it's unconscious) I was sure you were saying it was evidence that Tuon was the hard-faced woman. Because that's what you do. But yeah, obviously I had the same thought, and I considered mentioning it but was reluctant because....well, I just told you why.

 

The whole atmosphere of the scene--horrified and couragous in the face of it--was nice, and developed largely without Brandon telling us that that was what the atmosphere was supposed to be, which was nice. I loved Sorilea's reaction to the news, but to be honest Bair stole the scene--it was fun to see her come out swinging again, given she has very much taken a back step to Sorilea and Amys since LoC. And the sheer practicality of many of her answers to the problems at hand were thoroughly enjoyable.

 

I was not particularly fond of Sorilea's reaction because it was a non-subtle (and ultimately pointless) theory reference.

 

I'd be more interested in the Nakomi clue if it hadn't been so bluntly handled.

 

It does seem to hearken to Wetlander's theory, that she was Jenn. But the question is, how? Is she a product of the Pattern falling apart? Nothing else seems to make sense, unless she's a hero of the horn.

 

Beyond that I look forward to hearing what Bair saw at Rhuidean.

 

Me too, but I have a feeling that either 1) it will be nothing, or 2) Bair will be killed.

 

Beyond that, is anyone else sick of hearing the Aiel talk about how Rand Jesus Telamon Aes Sedai Second of His Name has embraced death? Probably just me. Okay then.

 

Not nearly as sick as I got of hearing about how the Maidens carry the honor of the Car'a'carn.

 

Androl

 

Like

 

Very little, unfortunately. Emarin would have been cool except Brandon immediately had Androl bluntly explain Emarin's humour to the reader immediately after. Seriously Brandon, your readers are not idiots!

 

My most unfavorite part of this scene was Pevara. I had the same thought as you: isn't she supposed to be awesome? And it's like, I know Pevara is an Aes Sedai and has your average run-of-the-mill Aes Sedai shortcomings, but we usually don't get beat over the head with those shortcomings unless it's someone like Elaida, someone truly irrational or hateful (like some of the Black Ajah). And it was just so jarring, and such a contrast to what was set up by their meeting at the end of TOM that it seems purposefully disappointing.

 

Where are the other Reds? In this scene it seemingly suggests in their talk of linking that they aren't expecting any help from the others. Have they all been taken and turned like Tarna?

 

I suspect that, because of Javindhra, Pevara is nervous about reaching out to anyone else. But there is a lot of character-dropping going on in the recent books.

 

Moghedien

 

Like

 

Loads of awesome revelations in this PoV. I'm actually liking revitalized Moghedien, post Winter's Heart. Taim is Chosen, yay. Taim is not Moridin, yay.

 

I don't really like Moghedien any more than I ever did, but yes, yay on the death of Mazridin, assuming it's not yet another extremely misleading scene like the Death of Graendal. (My feeling is that it is not, but I would honestly not be surprised.)

 

It does seem to be setting up for a confrontation between Taim and Demandred, and possibly Moridin too in regards to killing Rand which may be interesting provided this simplification of his motivations doesn't rob it too much during its delivery.

 

Don't forget Fain.

 

Talmanes

 

Dislike

 

Some clunky prose again, and of course Talmanes felt out of character. Plus much of the dialogue was choppy and inorganic, but they're all most minor gripes. My major gripe from this section is that we again see Brandon depict a charcter dispatching foes in some overly convuluted way after which another character describes for us how awesome he is. When will Brandon learn this is not the way to make a character cool? And I spoke in the Moghedien one of Brandonisms, and how I like Dreamshard--well, I loathed 'Dreadbane'.

 

Yeah, discounting the way the shards have a tendency to pull you out of WoT-world and into Brandon-world(s), Dreadbane was worse.

 

I have a tendency to generally dislike this particular naming convention that Brandon is so attached to, that is, jamming two words together. RJ did that a lot with regular words, but rarely with proper names (wolf naming conventions being a notable exception). It wouldn't bother me if Brandon didn't feel the need to name so many things. So we get things like balescreams and Lastriders etc. all over that seem out of place.

[csarmi]

From the other topic:

 

Liked Egeanin's POV as well. Nice to see Nynaeve is doing something to help Lan (too bad Egwene and Rand haven't). One of the more non-believeable things in the series is brough up again here. Why on earth didn't Domon and Egeanin just throw the bloody bracelets over the side when they saw another ship approaching? Who cares if it isn't in the DEEPEST part of the sea? Just get rid of it.

 

Which brings me to the part I didn't like. Elayne only leaving 4 channelrs behind, and weak ones at that? One of the dumbest things in the series, really. Along with her not realizing KIn could link and therefore she didn't need the Windfinders, the bracelet in the sea thing, and the overall lack of communication. Anyway, at least it was explained. I understand it had to be, else Caemlyn doesn't burn. But wouldn't it have made more sense for the Dreamspike to be blocking things, and then you could not make a character look so stupid?

 

Brandon likes making characters look stupid so that others look smart. I think that leaving 4 weak channelers behind is hard to buy, but not exactly out of character for Elayne. She just never heard of Plan B.

 

You should take note of no help coming, however. It is VERY likely that the BT area covers Caemlyn now. They would never have been able to gate out anyway. But now Elayne can't gate in either.

 

Speaking of stupid characters, where is Myrelle and the bloody AS outside the BT? What, they can't tell the city is burning? And they just sit there? Waiting for the umpteenth day in a row, hoping this will be the day they are allowed in? Jeez!

 

We don't know that. Actually, it's quite possible that they took off to Caemlyn as soon as they saw what's going on. They are just about to meet them at the walls. As I recall, the BT is southeast of Caemlyn and they blew up the eastern wall, right?

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Speaking of stupid characters, where is Myrelle and the bloody AS outside the BT? What, they can't tell the city is burning? And they just sit there? Waiting for the umpteenth day in a row, hoping this will be the day they are allowed in? Jeez!

 

We don't know that. Actually, it's quite possible that they took off to Caemlyn as soon as they saw what's going on. They are just about to meet them at the walls. As I recall, the BT is southeast of Caemlyn and they blew up the eastern wall, right?

 

The timeline is not in sync. The Black Tower events are two weeks behind the Caemlyn attack. We still haven't caught up. We don't even know if they are still alive.

 

From what we have last seen of the Black Tower, the Rebels will be occupied fighting inside the Black Tower.

 

Also, there is still the Dreamspike. They wouldn't be able to weave a gateway, since the Dreamspike is apparently still active a day or so prior to the attack.

 

So it could be any number of things.

 

They could be trapped in the Black Tower.

They could be captured and/or dead (although at least Faolin survives, if she is to have some kind of pleasant future via Min's viewing)

They could be fighting in the Black Tower still.

They could be somewhere totally different. Perhaps they escaped and are trying to get to the FoM, or have found clues to Logain's whereabouts.

They could well be making their way to Caemlyn now. Without Travelling, it would be extremely hard for them to get into the city, they could be fighting outside the gates.

[yoniy0]

Ah, finally. I've got a few things to say.

First, with regard to the Samma N'sei, I think it was made clear that their offspring went into a training program, and those who didn't breed true were expelled, meaning naturally they aren't all forcibly turned. This might explain the black eyes thing; it's much more mundane than an effect of the turning, simply interbreeding. And I agree, that scene was very well done (finally, a good Isam PoV), even if Isam thought to himself "Light, but the side of his belly did burn" (where would he have picked that up?).

 

As for the Forsaken, I'm aware I might've missed something in previous pages, But what makes you sure it was Cyndane? Her hatred of Rand and her attire? Whoever it was, she (or he) spoke with authority that Isam wouldn't get called off this time, so I'm sure Moridin either ordered the thing and is lying to Demandred, or this might actually be Demandred, and the Samma N'sei have orders to fetch him when it's time to take Rand down. Okay, I know it's a long-shot; I just find it weird that we heard nothing of her silvery hair (we always did, in the past).

 

About Emarin, I completely missed that reference, Luckers. Are you sure? And, I didn't find Pevara as distasteful as Terez and you seem to. I just think she's withholding judgement on Androl, trying to feel him out (in more than one way ). I have great expectations, still.

 

EDIT: Oh, Elayne and the four Kin. Meant to say something about that: Hogwash. Brandon, you yourself told us that the Dreamspike's area of effect can be adjusted. It's a much more elegant solution than assuming Elayne the utter fool in everything she does. But meh.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Now this may be me being starry-eyed at the new content and reveals, but the Isam PoV is one of my favourites in the entire series.

 

Previously we have seen the Shadow as the typical big bad villain, the DO a bully mafia boss, the Forsaken the contentious lieutenants that ultimately end up messing everything up, and the Shadowspawn as the mindless toadies that are cannon fodder. I think they were to an extent just another enemy.

 

But here, in the shadow of Shayol Ghul, I felt we truly saw what the Shadow really was. I could feel the evil of the place, the total degradation of humanity.

 

And Isam has become, with just that one PoV, a very complex and interesting character. I feel sorry for the guy, having grown up in that place. He isn't just the mindless evil assassin, I feel that Isam could become a very important character in aMoL (referring to why Gitara said Luc had to go to the Blight), rather than just a weird bad guy.

 

My favourite part would have to be the story of Moridin and the Samma N'Sei, very Jordan-esque, it reminds me of the old RJ's subtle touch. It oculd have just said " Moridin was stronger and taught them who was boss." But instead we get the old "whispers of the event" and then the Samma N'Sei scattering like mice while Moridin stalks down the street in a black coat (insert modern - leather jacket and sunglasses)

[Terez]

As for the Forsaken, I'm aware I might've missed something in previous pages, But what makes you sure it was Cyndane? Her hatred of Rand and her attire? Whoever it was, she (or he) spoke with authority that Isam wouldn't get called off this time, so I'm sure Moridin either ordered the thing and is lying to Demandred, or this might actually be Demandred, and the Samma N'sei have orders to fetch him when it's time to take Rand down. Okay, I know it's a long-shot; I just find it weird that we heard nothing of her silvery hair (we always did, in the past).

 

I'm pretty sure it was Cyndane, mostly based on gut feeling, but just to make things interesting, Brandon said that there's an instance in the book where one Forsaken poses as another.

[csarmi]

Speaking of stupid characters, where is Myrelle and the bloody AS outside the BT? What, they can't tell the city is burning? And they just sit there? Waiting for the umpteenth day in a row, hoping this will be the day they are allowed in? Jeez!

 

We don't know that. Actually, it's quite possible that they took off to Caemlyn as soon as they saw what's going on. They are just about to meet them at the walls. As I recall, the BT is southeast of Caemlyn and they blew up the eastern wall, right?

 

The timeline is not in sync. The Black Tower events are two weeks behind the Caemlyn attack. We still haven't caught up. We don't even know if they are still alive.

 

From what we have last seen of the Black Tower, the Rebels will be occupied fighting inside the Black Tower.

 

Also, there is still the Dreamspike. They wouldn't be able to weave a gateway, since the Dreamspike is apparently still active a day or so prior to the attack.

 

So it could be any number of things.

 

They could be trapped in the Black Tower.

They could be captured and/or dead (although at least Faolin survives, if she is to have some kind of pleasant future via Min's viewing)

They could be fighting in the Black Tower still.

They could be somewhere totally different. Perhaps they escaped and are trying to get to the FoM, or have found clues to Logain's whereabouts.

They could well be making their way to Caemlyn now. Without Travelling, it would be extremely hard for them to get into the city, they could be fighting outside the gates.

 

The rebel camp is at the perimeter of the old Dreamspike area, outside the walls. If it's to the northwest (and why wouldn't it be,it makes sense to have the camp on the Caemlyn side), they can see the fire directly. If they take their horses (oops, can't travel), that's exactly where they would end up and just about time to see Talmanes and co leave.

 

Even better, it is possible that the Big Escape (or whatever they have in planning) takes place at the same time and the two groups meet.

 

The Black Tower can be rent in Blood and Fire by some dragon-shots.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Again, the Black Tower plotline is two weeks behind the Caemlyn attack. The Rebels could be anywhere at this time. It is almost certain, via the prologue from Androl, that the Rebels wont be sitting around outside for much longer.

[Luckers]

For the record, Luckers called this one. My chat log from yesterday:

 

Luckers

10:56

im thinking the slayer scene was the jordan scene

it could have fitted in the original prologue, minus a bit of tweaking

Terez

10:56

yeah, it's possible, but I got the impression no one knew about that until after he'd quit writing altogether

Luckers

10:57

it reads pretty smooth

 

And then I changed the subject because there was a lot going on at once. Today Brandon confirmed RJ wrote that scene.

 

Haha! Sweet!

 

 

I would say that the Talentless Aiel probably attacked Mat's camp, and one of the Samma N'Sei made their gateway, and the Samma N'Sei attacked the Tinker caravan (they like to kill non-channelers with knives). RJ wanted the reader to think it was Aiel, because this was after the Aiel-Tinker revelation and the Aiel were running the same way the Band was marching, so there were always some of them passing by. I'm guessing the Talentless can be Aiel or non-Aiel, since Isam thought of Moridin in that context.

 

Yeah, good point about the Samma N'sei and the Tinkers. And yes, I also think it's clear the Talentless are anyone in the Town who cannot channel, including Aiel--that was the point I was trying to make in pointing out that there were Aiel fighters amongst the Talentless, but not clearly lol.

 

Cyndane was interesting too, in the position she takes her, the one she takes with Rand, and the way Moridin refers to her as still being punished and still holding her cour'souvra in Moghedien's PoV. Of particular interest is the fact that she seems to feel that she has the Great Lord's approval in what she does--but at the same time, feels uncertain.

 

I don't really know if 'uncertain' is the word I would use. Distracted? Yes. She was looking at her reflection in Slayer's cup. She's uncertain whether she still has the tools she needs to do what she does best. And I'm glad it's finally confirmed that she actually died. And that Moridin was the one to rescue her, personally. Somehow I like Moridin more for not sending someone else to do that task. (I liked him before.) And for what he did to accomplish it. I always liked the idea that he killed her to get her out, and I'd love to hear the story of how that went down.

 

Perhaps uncertain is not the right word, but there is something behind the scenes in this sentence...

 

"All others have renounced claim on you. Unless the Great Lord tells you otherwise--unless he summons you himself--you are to keep to this task.

 

The way she suddenly rephrased herself was odd. Though in saying this it suddenly occurs to me that in the original chronology this would have been not long after the Forsaken Coffee hour in KoD and the fake Sammael. This comment actually sounds like part way through the comment she remembered that and rephrased herself to guard against it--not just a Forsaken saying that the Great Lord had issued a command, that's not enough anymore to be certain, it has to come direct from the Great Lord's lips.

 

Okay, that all makes sense to me now, for all that it is also now contextually out with how Brandon has protrayed things since that moment. Meh.

 

The whole atmosphere of the scene--horrified and couragous in the face of it--was nice, and developed largely without Brandon telling us that that was what the atmosphere was supposed to be, which was nice. I loved Sorilea's reaction to the news, but to be honest Bair stole the scene--it was fun to see her come out swinging again, given she has very much taken a back step to Sorilea and Amys since LoC. And the sheer practicality of many of her answers to the problems at hand were thoroughly enjoyable.

 

I was not particularly fond of Sorilea's reaction because it was a non-subtle (and ultimately pointless) theory reference.

 

In what way?

 

I'd be more interested in the Nakomi clue if it hadn't been so bluntly handled.

 

It does seem to hearken to Wetlander's theory, that she was Jenn. But the question is, how? Is she a product of the Pattern falling apart? Nothing else seems to make sense, unless she's a hero of the horn.

 

[removed my quote about Bair]

 

Me too, but I have a feeling that either 1) it will be nothing, or 2) Bair will be killed.

 

Theory fodder so bluntly offered bores me. But then, Nakomi as a whole bores me specifically because it was blatantly and bluntly obvious that she exists only to be a mystery. She was invented and crafted for no other purpose, and none of the things she said to Aviendha are things that Aviendha couldn'y have simply realised. *yawn*

 

As for Bair... I suspect you're right. One of the other.

 

Androl

 

Like

 

Very little, unfortunately. Emarin would have been cool except Brandon immediately had Androl bluntly explain Emarin's humour to the reader immediately after. Seriously Brandon, your readers are not idiots!

 

My most unfavorite part of this scene was Pevara. I had the same thought as you: isn't she supposed to be awesome? And it's like, I know Pevara is an Aes Sedai and has your average run-of-the-mill Aes Sedai shortcomings, but we usually don't get beat over the head with those shortcomings unless it's someone like Elaida, someone truly irrational or hateful (like some of the Black Ajah). And it was just so jarring, and such a contrast to what was set up by their meeting at the end of TOM that it seems purposefully disappointing.

 

And even the parts that were supposed to be Pevara being cool were distasteful. If a woman were in a room acting like that I'd probably turn some snark on her. In many ways they reminded me of Brandon's depiction of Cadsuane, or Silviana, or many of the Wise Ones--is this truly what he thinks powerful, intelligent, experienced women act like?

 

Where are the other Reds? In this scene it seemingly suggests in their talk of linking that they aren't expecting any help from the others. Have they all been taken and turned like Tarna?

 

I suspect that, because of Javindhra, Pevara is nervous about reaching out to anyone else. But there is a lot of character-dropping going on in the recent books.

 

Agreed. And worse than that, character dropping followed by the appearence of new characters like Sleete, Naeff and Rosil. Now, I have no problems with new characters, provided they're organically introduced, but these characters come out of nowhere, assume the role of 'extras of the story' without so much as a 'hi, my name is...' and all at the same time that existing characters are fading away like mirages, and I'm just not sure why? Is Brandon replacing the caste with as many of his own characters as he can manage for ease of writing (it being easier for him to write his own than to write Jordans)? Is this the need for characters to be named under the overdone naming raffle they've run with?

 

Whatever it, its been done in poor form. I mean Rosil literally replaced one of Jordan's characters, based on no percipitating event depicted in the series. So Tiana's supposed to be a bad Mistress of Novices--fine, why didn't Egwene replace her before? Why did she choose to now? Why is this not even referenced? Bah!!!

 

Talmanes

 

Dislike

 

Some clunky prose again, and of course Talmanes felt out of character. Plus much of the dialogue was choppy and inorganic, but they're all most minor gripes. My major gripe from this section is that we again see Brandon depict a charcter dispatching foes in some overly convuluted way after which another character describes for us how awesome he is. When will Brandon learn this is not the way to make a character cool? And I spoke in the Moghedien one of Brandonisms, and how I like Dreamshard--well, I loathed 'Dreadbane'.

 

Yeah, discounting the way the shards have a tendency to pull you out of WoT-world and into Brandon-world(s), Dreadbane was worse.

 

I have a tendency to generally dislike this particular naming convention that Brandon is so attached to, that is, jamming two words together. RJ did that a lot with regular words, but rarely with proper names (wolf naming conventions being a notable exception). It wouldn't bother me if Brandon didn't feel the need to name so many things. So we get things like balescreams and Lastriders etc. all over that seem out of place.

 

I'm beginning to as well, not as specific as yours, but rather the general naming of things, and the way suddenly everything has an Old Tongue name--Leilwin's description of Nynaeve, for instance, and going back, Tuon's naming of men who can channel. It's not so much that it's done, it's that when it's done, it's not being done in a way that flows organically in the story.

 

Which brings me to the part I didn't like. Elayne only leaving 4 channelrs behind, and weak ones at that? One of the dumbest things in the series, really. Along with her not realizing KIn could link and therefore she didn't need the Windfinders, the bracelet in the sea thing, and the overall lack of communication. Anyway, at least it was explained. I understand it had to be, else Caemlyn doesn't burn. But wouldn't it have made more sense for the Dreamspike to be blocking things, and then you could not make a character look so stupid?

 

Brandon likes making characters look stupid so that others look smart. I think that leaving 4 weak channelers behind is hard to buy, but not exactly out of character for Elayne. She just never heard of Plan B.

 

I don't think this is so much Brandon making one character stupid to allow another character to be smart--though he does do that--as simply ignoring the integrity of the story in favour of convenience of the story-telling. It wouldn't be the first time--the way Myrelle is suddenly reachable by Gateway for the bond transfer, for one.

[MarkDiLillo]

Big thing I took out of this was that Moridin definitely IS being changed by Rand's coronation on the mountain. A specific set of sentences was devoted to making sure we noticed that. It is no longer a stretch to say that he will turn from the shadow at some point IMO. I suspect that Demandred is going to end Nae'blis if he doesn't abandon the shadow entirely - he had been promised it all along as we had seen in the scene with him at SG. I also suspect that Demandred at some point is going to crash the party and send all of his forces against Moridins. Let the Lord of Chaos rule doesn't necessarily have to apply only to causing chaos amongst the good guys. Another whacky theory is that Demandred flat out doesn't care about the Shadow and is still hell bent on BEING the dragon. He wants to kill Rand and redeem himself as savior of the Light by taking over from him. Kind of a stretch, but I wouldn't put it into the realm of impossibility yet. Or maybe that hasn't been his plan all along, but he's becoming more aware of the DO's real plan and he may find it more attractive to return to the light.

 

As for the Cyndane thing, I think her disgust comes from having to order Slayer to do the killing when she wanted to do it herself. It's hard to say because that part seems very weird to me. Not off in that it was a scene done poorly or anything...just intentionally left vague. I still hold to my theory that Mierin will somehow turn from the shadow in this last book though. The way she is being tortured and the fact that she is commanding Slayer to go after him pretty much shows that her pleas for help were genuine. The way Moridin refers to her as the one that is punished most of all also lends credence to her being set aside from the other Forsaken into her own little special category of hell - which makes her different enough to have a reason to want out.

 

The dreamshard thing is really weird. It is either a Brandonism or a specifically done plot point. So weird that the whole bit with Taim being named Chosen may actually have been some sort of ruse. It is important to note that it was specifically mentioned that Taim arrived through a door that Moridin had created and NOT through a gateway like Graendal and Demandred. Whoever mentioned that Taim may have been a construct during that scene may actually be on to something. The only problem with that is that we were looking through Moghedien's eyes in that scene and she is a known master of the dream. If something like that were going on I would suspect it would at least raise a red flag in her mind. It's tough to analyze details like these though in scenes Brandon wrote because sadly they could just be errors/sloppiness on his part rather than intentional details that we have become used to with RJ. Unfortunately, I am leaning towards the latter in this case.

[yoniy0]

Hmm, I think Naeff was present in KoD's A Plain Wooden Box, wasn't he? Regardless, I really don't see what you're talking about with regard to Pevara, Boss. Yes, I think the time is too short to dally around before teaching them to Link; but I'll probably need to go over it again, since I didn't see anything i wasn't expecting in that scene.

[thisguy]

Good to see that the nitpicking has already begun.

 

Calling out Brandon on consistently not trusting readers to reach conclusions leading to this type of repeated blunt writing is hardly nitpicking. It's somewhat rare at this point for us not be sledge hammered between the eyes in a situation like the one above

 

It might be far more helpful SuperFade instead of sniping from the shadows every time somene makes a reasoned critique, to instead attempt to point out why they are not correct. Good luck on this one though(granted you may have been referring to one of the other comments)....if people don't get Nortune's point I don't even no where to begin. It's already a lost cause.

 

Because most of the 'reasoned critiques' are actually pointless nitpicking. The only valid complaints in my eyes are things that objectively contradict established lore, like the mindtrap section, or continuity issues, like Sulin being in two different places at the same time. Such issues are not only Brandon's responsibility, but also his editors too - the books are not a one-man show and it's extremely irritating how Brandon seems to take all the flack for it. It's hilarious how everyone is foaming at the mouth about 'dreamshards' and apparently unnecessary sentences when we don't even know how much of the text was written by Brandon and how much was by Jordan. The latter claim is particularly ridiculous when one considers how Jordan's incompetent editors allowed him to blather on for pages and pages about unnecessary trivialities.

 

There is an odd sort of myopia amongst the more senior members of this board, an arrogance that asserts that every problem with the later books must be Brandon's fault, because Robert Jordan could never have made such amateur mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that every single criticism of Brandon is 100% valid and that all the complainers are engaged in some epic quest to improve Brandon as a writer. But this belief presupposes that the problematic parts were indeed written by Brandon himself, and that they are actually problematic at all, which is subjective.

Well said. To be honest, reading through these books again (on my reread of KoD), I'm pretty friggin shocked at all the errors in them. Spelling, incorrect use of words, words that are totally misspelled. Where are the editors for these books? And, someone posted a line from the prologue somewhere here where Mat or Talmanes or whoever thinks "he'd mount them all".... where the fug is the editor? It's astounding! Writers make mistakes all the time, that's why there are editors.

 

As for the rest of your statement, Superfade, I agree.

 

This is what I've read on these forums more than once - Brandon wasn't given, or didn't have, enough time to write the books properly.

The first read through of the books everybody was happy, etc.

 

There's absolutely no way this guy could have written these books as RJ. RJ spent at least 20 years gathering material and thinking and writing what to do. You guys reread the books 20-80 times and then come here to complain right out of the gate when something has been written. It's amazing to watch; like a pack of hyenas.

[MarkDiLillo]

As for the Forsaken, I'm aware I might've missed something in previous pages, But what makes you sure it was Cyndane? Her hatred of Rand and her attire? Whoever it was, she (or he) spoke with authority that Isam wouldn't get called off this time, so I'm sure Moridin either ordered the thing and is lying to Demandred, or this might actually be Demandred, and the Samma N'sei have orders to fetch him when it's time to take Rand down. Okay, I know it's a long-shot; I just find it weird that we heard nothing of her silvery hair (we always did, in the past).

 

I'm pretty sure it was Cyndane, mostly based on gut feeling, but just to make things interesting, Brandon said that there's an instance in the book where one Forsaken poses as another.

 

She also refers to Rand as Lews Therin which basically confirms it was Cyndane. Unlikely someone was posing as her given that comment and the phrases how she was looking at her reflection and was disgusted, etc. I dont see that level of

"character reveal" being used when someone is posing as another.

 

If anything was fishy in this prologue, it was Taim in the dreamshard. Not sure I would bank on that being the instance of someone posing as another Forsaken though...

[Stubby]

I can't read all the posts here but did anyone think that Alivia might be the Seanchan with Egwene when Rand confronts them?

[yoniy0]

A word on timelines. Rand's dream of Cyndane took place the night before the meeting at the Field of Merrilor, the night of the attack on Caemlyn. In fact, it was that very dream that woke him up and sent him to talking with Perrin in the first chapter. Now, where does 'Cyndane's' meeting with Isam fit? Moridin was present in the Town, so the meeting of the FS didn't take place concurrently. I tend to think, it came after, and what Rand saw was part of Cyndane's fabled punishment. But then, does Moridin already know what Isam is doing? Did he know all along (likely, seeing as how he still wears her Mindtrap, and her certitude that Slayer isn't required for some greater purpose)? Side note: when Rand dreamed of Cyndane, was he lying with Aviendha? Because, dude, that's messed up.

 

She also refers to Rand as Lews Therin which basically confirms it was Cyndane.

Nah, more than one Forsaken has done that, from time to time.

[PaulChauvet]

Regardless of the name 'dreamshard', I'm glad that its been finally confirmed that what Moridin/Ishamael do is fundamentally different from just being in Tel'aran'rhiod or someone's dreams. There has always (since Eye of the World) been something different about it.

 

I didn't know that it was so unique that even Moghieden didn't know about it.

[Suttree]

Because most of the 'reasoned critiques' are actually pointless nitpicking. The only valid complaints in my eyes are things that objectively contradict established lore, like the mindtrap section, or continuity issues, like Sulin being in two different places at the same time. Such issues are not only Brandon's responsibility, but also his editors too - the books are not a one-man show and it's extremely irritating how Brandon seems to take all the flack for it. It's hilarious how everyone is foaming at the mouth about 'dreamshards' and apparently unnecessary sentences when we don't even know how much of the text was written by Brandon and how much was by Jordan. The latter claim is particularly ridiculous when one considers how Jordan's incompetent editors allowed him to blather on for pages and pages about unnecessary trivialities.

 

There is an odd sort of myopia amongst the more senior members of this board, an arrogance that asserts that every problem with the later books must be Brandon's fault, because Robert Jordan could never have made such amateur mistakes. You seem to be under the impression that every single criticism of Brandon is 100% valid and that all the complainers are engaged in some epic quest to improve Brandon as a writer. But this belief presupposes that the problematic parts were indeed written by Brandon himself, and that they are actually problematic at all, which is subjective.

 

First of please do not try and speak for me. You have no idea what I think and I thank you not to categorize my position in attempting to make yours stronger. It is a cheap trick that has no place in a honest debate. I have denounced baseless criticism a number if times so your claim falls extremely flat. Don't try to lump all the critiques in as one because as you well know they can vary wildly. Further you seem to be claiming above that people are not allowed to critique the actual quality of the writing(if you wish to clarify the point you were making please do. Maybe prose and characterization just doesnt matter to you?) which is laughable to the extreme. If you noticed in my post I allowed that you could have been discussing something else aside from the point I was agreeing with. I hope that is the case, because again if you dont see the issue with blunt prose and hand holding due to an author not trusting himself or the audience it already is a lost cause. The need to constantly repeat to make sure the audience understands is a far different issue than RJ being too descriptive in places. Not sure how you could possibly conflate those two issues.

 

All in all while good the prologue pretty much sums up the issues in a nut shell. Strongest part by far was Isam. Not surprised to find out who was responsible. Thought Brandon did a awesome job with Talmanes. Problem is then we lurch back to Avhienda and the Adnrol scenes which were up and down to be generous. Some very clunky awkward sections.

 

Quick point in regards to Team Jordan. It most certainly isn't a one man show and the books were rushed out far too fast. That should go without saying. Regardless it is undoubtedly the duty of the author to say my work is not ready. Instead of that we have an author who wipes his hands of the process before a beta reader has even seen the book. Hope to say this for the last time. The issue isn't that he's not doing as good a job as RJ could have. It's is he doing as good a job as Brandon could have? Posters like SuperFade need to see the difference between valid critique and bashing. If it falls into the later category I will be right there with you shouting it down. What you can not do is have a knee jerk blanket reaction to any dissenting view just because the prose doesn't matter to you or you don't see the issues. Sadly we are in a time and place where any dissenting opinions get shouted down and more troubling is the right to express them seems to be questioned.

[PaulChauvet]

I wonder if something's been done to Cyndane to break her such that her concious mind is wholly evil and follows the shadow and her subconcious/dream mind is what reached out to Rand at the end of Towers of Midnight.

 

With the comments from Moridin about the one who is most punished (which based on the rest of the chosen being there cannot be anyone other than Cyndane), I cannot believe that what Rand saw is a trap (at least not HER trap).

[Sid]

Hmm, I think Naeff was present in KoD's A Plain Wooden Box, wasn't he? Regardless, I really don't see what you're talking about with regard to Pevara, Boss. Yes, I think the time is too short to dally around before teaching them to Link; but I'll probably need to go over it again, since I didn't see anything i wasn't expecting in that scene.

Naeff was introduced to us in TGS. Remember back when everyone was saying "Who the heck is this guy all of a sudden?"

 

One thing I noticed, is that in Talmanes' scenes there are several people mentioned, other soldiers, ect. The only ones that existed before this prologue were Talmanes, Guybon, and Aludra. There were lots of people that were with the band that we've heard of, so why not have one or two of them there? There were a fair number of Kinswomen we knew already, so why not use one them in the text instead of creating a new one? Why introduce new characters nobody can identify with when there's no need for it? You'd think it would be easier to use someone with an established personality (no matter how minute) that you could elude to, rather than creating a new one. The series was complex enough without needlessly adding lots of cardboard cutouts. It's like reading a mad-libs where the underlined blanks were *Soldier number 1* *Soldier number 2* etc. As you read, you already know "I don't have to care who these people even are. Tell me what the hell happens and let's get on with it." And when you reread it, it'll be just as two dimensional if not more. Even steeling yourself for it because you know it's coming, you feel disappointed.

[he who comes with a bong]

i just want to read the damn thing i could careless how he wrote it lol. It would be very nice if someone were to just post the whole thing hahahahah i know it wont happen but it would be very nice. But i can wait for the 2 days till i can buy it i guess.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Not to stomp over anyone's parade, but do you guys mind foregoing the regular argument about criticism and its validity, for the time being at least? We actually have some new tidbits to debate; why not make good use of that?

 

Indeed, perhaps another topic can be made about it. I mean, I don't usually mind, criticism is valid, but since we only have one thread to discuss this in, it makes it difficult.

 

Anyway, what do people think about Moggyrachnid's thought about "What happened to Demandred, he had changed" and his insistence on killing Rand. It seemed to be a big point in the PoV, what with Taim contending with him, and his persistent insistence (heh) that he has to kill Rand.

 

To fit it with my own theory of Demandred not keen on the Shadow, I think he wants to get rid of Rand ASAP and fulfil his mission of "vengance". With anything else, he is usually pretty calm, but LTT angers him. I think he either wants to kill LTT and die, or even take his "rightful" place (i mean, it doesn't make sense, but strong hatred like this often doesn't).

 

I am also reminded of the fact that it seems simply killing the Dragon doesn't set the DO free, that there are special requirements for the DO's victory. Also the fact that it looks like Rand has to die to win. "To live you must die" "Blood on the rocks" etc..

 

So I can see this two ways, the DO has tasked him with killing Rand properly, to ensure the DO's victory. It would explain why Moridin is willing to suffer these "requirements", and would be more interesting than simply lying to him.

 

The second is far fetched, true, but it makes sense in a way. I have already extrapolated on the potential foreshadowing for Demandred betraying the Shadow, and not being keen on the Shadow's victory. If he somehow knows that Rand has to die before he is able to defeat the DO (apparently Demandred figured out Rand's plan the moment he realized he was in Shadar Logoth, and he observes pretty much everything that other characters miss) Demandred thinks "This is a sweet way to get what I want. Kill Lews Therin, without dooming the world to be consumed by Shadow. Win-Win right there."

 

Obviously, it might just be an idle comment, but you never know what is foreshadowing and what isn't. It seems redundant to put that in without specific reason, it is pretty clear. (although, referring to the criticism, it may just be another case of stating the obvious)

[Mulk]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but do you guys mind foregoing the regular argument about criticism and its validity, for the time being at least? We actually have some new tidbits to debate; why not make good use of that?

 

This. A million times this. Please.

[yoniy0]

Barid, you've chosen your handle yourself. Don't ruin everyone else's fun by taking away our best villain, okay? We've been waiting for some real evil for a long time now

[Chackern]

Well,

I was shocked to get the entire prologue last night on my Kindle for my tablet.

Where to begin?

The Talmanes story line was stirring but, it was like reading the history of the Leonidas and his 300 Spartans, you know the end but you still wish it could turn out differently.

I was wondering about the Isam POV; is it a red-herring? Why do I get the feeling that we are seeing the beginning of someone who will switch to the side of the Light?

In Aviendah's story line, it is tough to decide if Sorilea is a darkfriend or not. Or maybe Bair?

The Chosen meeting seemed clunky. Kind of reminds me of watching Christopher Lee as Saruman shouting "To war!" I did like seeing Taim rewarded, even though I am not a fan of the Dark, Taim did well in his assignment.

I could not stop reading this last night, it kept me up afterward.

[Luckers]

Carved out the most recent posts on the subject of Brandon's writing. No more on that in this thread.