CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Suttree]

Nah, Elayne has a track record of such things. Her plans were always extremely naive, she has no idea of what it means to minimize risk and is utterly devoid of any killer instinct. Case in point when she went to apprehend the Black Sisters in WH she had access to over a hundred channellers and she went there together with three Aes Sedai one of which she knew would be another DF so at best the numbers were even.

 

On the contrary, she utilized all the channelers at her disposal. The WFs would not have helped an the reason given for the kin is for the most part they are still feinting at the sight of regular sisters and would have been worse than useless against BA. That leaves who she used and she very smartly hobbled the DF in her midst by linking along with having adequate back up based on the intelligence to hand. It took bad timing and a heretofore unknown weapon from the AoL to wreck the plan.

[Aqua Weaver]

Does anyone else think that the army Moghedien is now leading was supposed to have been led by Mesaana? Which if true, raises the question of who else Demandred has leading armies for him.

 

Aqua

[flinn]

Does anyone else think that the army Moghedien is now leading was supposed to have been led by Mesaana? Which if true, raises the question of who else Demandred has leading armies for him.

 

Aqua

 

I was just re-reading the Slayer/chosen scene and was thinking, it has to be Graendal.

Then it hit me, UNLESS we find out in one of the first couple of chapters that Mesaana has been killed in the WT. Then it could possibly be Mesaana. Gotta think the DO will want her killed so he can transmitigate her.

But I still think it is Graendal, the looking at herself was too obvious.

[Bluedust9]

Does anyone else think that the army Moghedien is now leading was supposed to have been led by Mesaana? Which if true, raises the question of who else Demandred has leading armies for him.

 

Aqua

 

I was just re-reading the Slayer/chosen scene and was thinking, it has to be Graendal.

Then it hit me, UNLESS we find out in one of the first couple of chapters that Mesaana has been killed in the WT. Then it could possibly be Mesaana. Gotta think the DO will want her killed so he can transmitigate her.

But I still think it is Graendal, the looking at herself was too obvious.

 

Here's my problem with that.. if it was a prologue RJ written part, then Graendal makes no sense, as she didn't do anything yet to be punished.

[Neophyte]

Nah, Elayne has a track record of such things. Her plans were always extremely naive, she has no idea of what it means to minimize risk and is utterly devoid of any killer instinct. Case in point when she went to apprehend the Black Sisters in WH she had access to over a hundred channellers and she went there together with three Aes Sedai one of which she knew would be another DF so at best the numbers were even.

 

On the contrary, she utilized all the channelers at her disposal. The WFs would not have helped an the reason given for the kin is for the most part they are still feinting at the sight of regular sisters and would have been worse than useless against BA. That leaves who she used and she very smartly hobbled the DF in her midst by linking along with having adequate back up based on the intelligence to hand. It took bad timing and a heretofore unknown weapon from the AoL to wreck the plan.

 

Of her less-than-perfect plans, the one in KoD chapter 31 when she went after the Black Ajah was the least-badly-planned. She ran into some genuine bad luck and unknown technology. That's why I really haven't been using that one as an example, though it could have been planned better. For example, once they were sure that the Black Ajah were inside, they could have set the place on fire to drive them out, and captured them from hidden positions as they exited. By going in, they allowed themselves to be taken into an ambush. It's almost always better to flush your quarry out than to go in after it. Not to mention that by doing that she could have had a few more sisters in place, linked to the Kin who were still too timid to fight, so that their strength was available whether they were "feinting" at the sight of other Aes Sedai or not.

 

Elayne used what she thought was enough force. But if you have more force available, and it isn't committed elsewhere, then it is almost always better to have more force committed than you need. As Machiavelli said, do not risk your entire fortune without using all your forces. Any time the Queen (or at that point, the Daughter-Heir claiming the crown) is directly exposed, you are risking your entire fortune. Which is why Birgitte thought it was a bad idea to start with.

 

All that said, despite ending in a fiasco, that raid was still the best of her bad plans. The plan to interrogate the prisoners (or lack of a plan, since she did it totally on the spur of the moment) and the idea that she could march into Cairhien and no one would try anything, were both far worse. And of course, the worst of all was leaving Caemlyn so badly exposed while she is at the Field of Merrilor.

 

Other leaders, like Darlin, worried about leaving their homelands so exposed just on the possibility of attack. Elayne knew the Shadow had a planned attack, she knew that she hadn't found a way to stop, and she knew that it was coming soon. Yet she stripped her seat of power of nearly all its defenses, and left only a single link that apparently hung on the weakest breath of any of four women. It is sheer incompetence.

[Damer Sedai]

I have been wondering for a while about the wisdom of Egwene's plan of bringing not just all the leaders of Randland, but the largest part of their armies as well to the FoM. Beyond the potential for disaster if things become contentious, how much more influential is an army of 40,000 compared to the leadership, and the elite guard (Defenders of the Stone, 100 companions, wolfguard etc) in changing the Dragon Reborn's mind? I can't decide if I think Rand secretly wanted the full armies summoned too, or not - it doesn't seem like their presence is necessary for his compact, but maybe each nation needs to be a witness to avoid backsliding by their leaders - we don't see his point of view, so I guess its moot. I suppose the side bonus of binding the nations to the Amilryn Seat is important to Eggy... yet it has the feel of a great set piece for something momentous to happen, and was probably preordained.

 

If we questioned every element of questionable tactics practiced the good guys, especially the younger generation, we would be here all night from book 3 on. I suppose I would preferred a background of 12 Kin being left behind, and the largest part of them being forkrooted at breakfast and killed by Grey Men, leaving the same scenario, but the given plot doesn't ruin the prologue for me, and I don't think its an dramatic example of bad characterization. She isn't dumb, as she left guybon inside and Talmanes outside, which would have handled most scenarios long enough for Elayne to get back, even if their were no Traveling at all - it was noted that she was expecting semi-frequent communication, and is sure to send someone sooner, not later.

 

Nah, Elayne has a track record of such things. Her plans were always extremely naive, she has no idea of what it means to minimize risk and is utterly devoid of any killer instinct. Case in point when she went to apprehend the Black Sisters in WH she had access to over a hundred channellers and she went there together with three Aes Sedai one of which she knew would be another DF so at best the numbers were even.

 

On the contrary, she utilized all the channelers at her disposal. The WFs would not have helped an the reason given for the kin is for the most part they are still feinting at the sight of regular sisters and would have been worse than useless against BA. That leaves who she used and she very smartly hobbled the DF in her midst by linking along with having adequate back up based on the intelligence to hand. It took bad timing and a heretofore unknown weapon from the AoL to wreck the plan.

 

It wasn't a bad plan, and I think Elayne gets a bad rap because she has the WORST luck when she goes after Black Ajah, but it wasn't perfect. The plan depended on the information of Hark, and Elayne knows well that depending on spies, no matter how skilled to spy and give reliable information is a stretch - heck, at least this time it wasn't a trap set by the Black Ajah (see: Juilin Sandar and the Stone of Tear). Even Brigitte refused to spy on Aes Sedai in Salidar, indicating her failure in past lives. And they left behind the warders to protect them from the black ajah, but they do make excellent scouts, and might have made the difference as scouts and they wouldn't have been surprised by the new arrivals. But that's all besides the point. My impression is that Elayne often has certain expectations of how things are going to go after an initial plan, leaving blind spots, so I don't find the scenario that egregious.

 

As for the size of Travelling gates, we know that Adeleas and Vandene could not Travel before they went to Ebou Dar. I expect that they could do everything that the kinswoman in the prologue could do, probably standing on their heads. Smaller gates take smaller amounts of the power (re: Cadsuane and the well with the Borderlander confrontaiton), but its been stated over and over in the the text that many Aes Sedai can't create the weaves, so I have no problem with the concept that 1 or 2 kinswomen together cannot. Some are strong enough, more are not, period.

[Sharaman]

FWIW a channeler who's too weak to make a Gate could burn six trollocs at once. She may be skilled enough to split her flows that many ways. Think of Egwene forkrooted in the tower and irritating her AS teachers by doing exactly that. .

[Luckers]

The ability to divide flows has some form of relation to innate strength--we know this, for all that we don't fully understand it.

 

That being said, killing six Trollocs requires neither great strength nor the ability to divide the flows many ways.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Nah, Elayne has a track record of such things. Her plans were always extremely naive, she has no idea of what it means to minimize risk and is utterly devoid of any killer instinct. Case in point when she went to apprehend the Black Sisters in WH she had access to over a hundred channellers and she went there together with three Aes Sedai one of which she knew would be another DF so at best the numbers were even.

 

On the contrary, she utilized all the channelers at her disposal. The WFs would not have helped an the reason given for the kin is for the most part they are still feinting at the sight of regular sisters and would have been worse than useless against BA. That leaves who she used and she very smartly hobbled the DF in her midst by linking along with having adequate back up based on the intelligence to hand. It took bad timing and a heretofore unknown weapon from the AoL to wreck the plan.

 

I didn't say that she went in with no plan at all, I said she was naive and didn't know how to minimize risk.

That ter'angreal was only a weapon of choice the BA used because it was the surest way with the least risk. See, they know how to minimize risk. It was far from the only way. Elayne was completely giddy with excitement and had let her guard down completely. She had no one to watch her back and was having fun with her grand denunciation. So she got caught from behind like the foolish teen she was. Some guy with a throwing knife could have ended her plan just as easily as a ter'angreal which could cause pain. And I'm sure those four BA could have woven a club of air before Elayne could react as well and knocked her out.

 

Like I said she doesn't know how to minimize risk. Leaving only four kin to make a gateway is just the same. No redundancy, no one to take care of any unforeseen dangers. It's a completely believable oversight on Elayne's part.

[sleepinghour]

Same with her treatment of those captured black sisters. I get that she wants to interrogate them, but why doesn't she just still them? She'd seen with Amico how much losing the ability to channel breaks resistence. As long as they are able to channel they are a permanent threat which require special attention. Still them and they are just regular women. Well, Cadsuane is guilty of the same error, actually even worse when she doesn't still Semirhage.

 

Tower Law doesn't allow individual sisters to still anyone; they have to be put to trial first. Note that Moiraine didn't still Joiya either. Amico was an exception because Egwene stilled her in self-defense.

[Terez]

Sorry for quoting a random post in the thread which may or may not have already been responded to; I don't feel like reading through several pages to catch up.

 

Rereading this part, It does seem that Egeanin isn't even aware that Elayne is the Queen of Andor, which would be just silly. Domon at least should know very well who Elayne Trakand is and her rank in Andor and besdies both Egeanin should've asked Thom and Mat for more info on Elayne back in Caemlyn since she wanted so much to meet her.

 

Elayne told Egeanin she was the Daughter-Heir in TSR when they first met, and by the time the Amathera episode was over it was particularly clear. But Egeanin seemed confused about the nature of Randland nobility; it's very different from the hierarchical system of the Empire, and Elayne made it clear enough that being Aes Sedai trumped being Daughter-Heir. (By the way, this reminded me of Domon and Egeanin trying to be friends with Juilin and Thera, which is really cute in light of the events of TSR.)

[b3arz3rg3r]

Same with her treatment of those captured black sisters. I get that she wants to interrogate them, but why doesn't she just still them? She'd seen with Amico how much losing the ability to channel breaks resistence. As long as they are able to channel they are a permanent threat which require special attention. Still them and they are just regular women. Well, Cadsuane is guilty of the same error, actually even worse when she doesn't still Semirhage.

 

Tower Law doesn't allow individual sisters to still anyone; they have to be put to trial first. Note that Moiraine didn't still Joiya either. Amico was an exception because Egwene stilled her in self-defense.

 

So? Elayne should either just have broken that law or brought those Black Sisters to Egwene's camp, because I'm certain tower law doesn't allow individual sisters to incarcerate another without bringing them before a higher authority either. At worst Elayne would have gotten a small penance, because there was no doubt of their guilt and because she could argue that since stilling became reversible it no longer could be considered a final punishment. More likely nothing would have happened at all afterall Egwene is the Amyrlin. Holding them herself and not stilling them was stupid. Nothing else is there to say about it.

 

 

On a different note, I wonder if Aviendha is pregnant by chapter one or by chapter two and whether Min takes part as well XD

She appears rather determined to make the most of the "one night that remained" afterall.

[Terez]

Tower Law doesn't allow individual sisters to still anyone; they have to be put to trial first. Note that Moiraine didn't still Joiya either. Amico was an exception because Egwene stilled her in self-defense.

So? Elayne should either just have broken that law or brought those Black Sisters to Egwene's camp, because I'm certain tower law doesn't allow individual sisters to incarcerate another without bringing them before a higher authority either.

 

I have no idea why you would be certain about that since everything we know points to it not being true.

[he who comes with a bong]

Random thought that i just read. What do you think the "Deeper Secrets" of the one power that Moggy thinks of to her self?

 

Maybee we will see Milking Tears or some other type of badass weave (ive always wanted to know what groundfire and milking tears were lol)

[MasterAblar]

Random thought that i just read. What do you think the "Deeper Secrets" of the one power that Moggy thinks of to her self?

 

Maybee we will see Milking Tears or some other type of badass weave (ive always wanted to know what groundfire and milking tears were lol)

 

I think it just confirms the fact that, with a few exceptions, the Forsaken have far greater knowledge of the One Power than the Third Age channellers. And yes I hope to see some awesome stuff with the One Power.

[David Selig]

Same with her treatment of those captured black sisters. I get that she wants to interrogate them, but why doesn't she just still them? She'd seen with Amico how much losing the ability to channel breaks resistence. As long as they are able to channel they are a permanent threat which require special attention. Still them and they are just regular women. Well, Cadsuane is guilty of the same error, actually even worse when she doesn't still Semirhage.

 

Tower Law doesn't allow individual sisters to still anyone; they have to be put to trial first. Note that Moiraine didn't still Joiya either. Amico was an exception because Egwene stilled her in self-defense.

 

So? Elayne should either just have broken that law or brought those Black Sisters to Egwene's camp, because I'm certain tower law doesn't allow individual sisters to incarcerate another without bringing them before a higher authority either. At worst Elayne would have gotten a small penance, because there was no doubt of their guilt and because she could argue that since stilling became reversible it no longer could be considered a final punishment. More likely nothing would have happened at all afterall Egwene is the Amyrlin. Holding them herself and not stilling them was stupid. Nothing else is there to say about it.

Small penance? Really? It's repeated over and over how strict Tower Law is on such things. Elayne thought that even taking their rings away could get her in trouble. Even if stilling can be Healed now, it's still a huge deal for the Aes Sedai. And Egwene was a prisoner of Elaida back then.

 

BTW, Moiraine held Amico and Joya in Tear for a month, and it certainly didn't seem she or the Supergirls considered it against the Tower law.

[Terez]

And Elayne and Co. held Ispan as well, in a group that included several older Aes Sedai (like Adeleas and Vandene), none of whom were considered a 'higher authority' (since, as we all know, Nynaeve and Elayne held the highest authority in that group).

[yoniy0]

All that said, despite ending in a fiasco, that raid was still the best of her bad plans. The plan to interrogate the prisoners (or lack of a plan, since she did it totally on the spur of the moment) and the idea that she could march into Cairhien and no one would try anything, were both far worse. And of course, the worst of all was leaving Caemlyn so badly exposed while she is at the Field of Merrilor.

Precisely. The episode of the House on Full Moon street was rush planning, but it included redundancies and should've sufficed to the situation at hand. Vandene was the only one Elayne trusted, so she got to lead the second Circle. The only way to make the plan better was to link a handful of Kin with both Elayne and Vandene, then leave them at the palace. And maybe take the Warders in, although that could've ended very badly.

The rest are, quite simply, insanely planned and executed. That's why I think Brandon's Elayne a mere caricature of her former self. But even by that standard, it makes absolutely zero sense to leave no redundancy what so ever with regard to Traveling. After all, with all the AS present, why did she have to take the Kin to the FoM, at all? She didn't, and shouldn't have.

[David Selig]

As I said before, there were guards outside Chesmal's cell, and Kinwomen too. How much more of a backup is necessary to interrogate one shielded prisoner when you're a really strong channeller yourself? There've been like 1000 much more risky and reckless plans in WoT so far with less contingencies and backup plans.

 

As for going to Cairhien, she had 1plenty of bodyguards and Kinwomen around. Again hardly reckless.

[csarmi]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this already. I'M having more and more problems with timelines. It's all falling apart.

I'm really sad to say so, but these last three books are quite a bit messed up. Now that may not matter to some people, but it does to me. A lot. In my eyes, one of the biggest thing going for this series was that timeline, logistics, physics, etc. used to make a lot more sense than in other fantasies. As in it were some 'realistic fantasy'. :(

 

Now let me see. Aviendha's timeline makes less and less sense.

 

She leaves for Rhuidean more than 30 days before FoM, actually, I think it's more than 40. They know that the last battle is upon them.

Yet, she takes several days to get there, instead of using travelling.

 

That is something I can buy. Hard, but doable. I suppose that should "explain" her timeline.

 

Then she visits Rhuidean (and the columns). She sees this vision. The things she sees are of such an utmost importance, that it is completely implausible that she wouldn't go straight for consulting with the other wise ones. That's just not possible.

 

Then somehow she arrives at the evening right before FoM. Then they talk with Bair and in the conversation, neither of them mentions the fact that it might take Bair week (weeks) to get through the columns. In fact, their conversation suggests that they expect it to be done overnight.

 

What was she doing for 40 days?

[PaulChauvet]

 

Here's my problem with that.. if it was a prologue RJ written part, then Graendal makes no sense, as she didn't do anything yet to be punished.

 

There was a lot of the last three books which Jordan either outlined, or dictated the general plot of. I'm assuming Graendal's screwups (Aran'gar, Messana, etc.) were among them.

[yoniy0]

What was she doing for 40 days?

According to the timeline reference tables I'm using, it's more like 59 days (with a considerable amount of uncertainty, but what can you do?). Now, it took Rand and co. 12 days to make the trip from Rhuidean to Cold Rocks Hold back in TSR, so let's be generous and assume it takes Aviendha alone just as many days (which is, quite frankly, absurd). That leaves ~47 days for two goes through the columns. If I'm not much mistaken, in the past no one came out once they've been gone for 10 days, making it highly unlikely that we've got the timeline down right. Then again, no one has ever went through a second time. That could make all the difference.

[Terez]

I doubt it. The clouds broke during her future visions, which means there was slightly less than a month between then and Merrilor. But I've given up on caring about timelines in the last three books because they're so screwed up that they're impossible to fix.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I doubt it. The clouds broke during her future visions, which means there was slightly less than a month between then and Merrilor. But I've given up on caring about timelines in the last three books because they're so screwed up that they're impossible to fix.

 

Pretty much the same. I will just ignore it as much I can so I can enjoy the rest of the story in relative peace. I don't care what Aviendha has been doing to only arrive the night before, I would much rather just preserve the enjoyment of the scenes.

 

As long as it doesn't go into the realm of impossibility, I will be willing to believe Aviendha spent a month tracking Shadowcats in the Waste.

[yoniy0]

Well, the clouds breaking could just be a result of her own return to Rhuidean from wherever it is the columns take you, given that it happened after VoG. IIRC, Elayne also banished the clouds from Caemlyn (although Min didn't from Tear, and later Egwene takes the breaking of the could-cover above tFoM as indication of Rand's arrival, even though Elayne just got there a couple of minutes before.