Greatest Warrior in Wheel of Time

[Alric]

If only there was some kind of cage match that could have settled this issue...

[Vardar]

I think it is a really good point that Mat only has one eye now. That certainly will play a major role in how good a fighter he is now.

 

I also agree with the thought that Lan would not lose. I remember in New Spring him fighting and stating that the other guy was better but got over confident when he injuryed Lan. Lan doesn't quit.

 

Lan almost died to 6 attackers right? Remember he thought to himself that no blademaster takes on half a dozen men and lives, except in stories.

 

Mat took on 12 Aiel, lived, and killed some. Who does that?

 

Mat may be good, but you have to recall him in the Stone, quarterstaff versus blademaster, did not work, yeah he beat the two boys in White tower, then Couladin, but we don't see him going up against, blademasters...

 

He didn't have proper room to maneuver in the Stone. We know that the weapon is not an issue per the story of Jearom's only loss coming to a farmer with a quarter staff.

 

Edit: I bet we are going to see a Ogier Gardener from the Deathwatch kick some serious ass at TG(it would be crazy if we see some DF ones). At least one of those has to be near the top.

 

This is exactly what I meant when I said that there are a zillion variables. Are they unarmed? Then I'd give it to the Aiel (in general), Rand, then Lan and then the rest of the Warders.

Are they outside? Good chance it's Mat.

Are they inside? How small is the room. I'd hate to be in a room with Padan Fain by the door. Even if I could beat the snot out of him, all he has to do is scratch me with that dagger.

Are we getting rid of supernatural abilities? I'd say Lan, Rand or one of the Aiel warriors. Maybe, Mat.

 

We could go on and on with this. It's fun, I'm not complaining, I just used to read a lot of Bruce Lee books and he goes on about how even how tight your pants are can make a difference.

 

One more, are you keeping Faile from Perrin? That guy will probably die trying to kill you.

 

I think, all things equal, with their preferred weapon would be the only fair way to do it. So an arena type setting, enough room to move and give swinging room, not hampering larger people. should do.

 

In that situaiton, even with one eye, I'd bet on Mat against anyone.

[Entreri]

It is actually Perrin that estimates that a mouse could starve over the difference between Lan and Rhuarc. Aiel are the best fighting society in WoT and Rhuarc is implied as being their best.

 

That is before Lan went BEAST MODE, post-Moraine. Avienhda then said she has never seen a more dangerous man than Lan, a "Lion" she called him (book 7 or 8). At this point I would put Lan >= Jearom.

 

 

 

With ta'avern effect ON, fight to the DEATH, it is Rand. The Pattern needs him, he is the strongest ta'avern, probably ever in the current 7 Ages. If it is not a fight to the death, I could see Mat win.

 

Minus ta'vern effect, it is Lan, the most skilled and deadliest warrior.

 

Hand-to-hand, it is Rhuarc or Lan, after which it is Rand, followed by top tier Aiel and top tier Warders. Rand has been taught by both Lan and Rhuarc and he destroyed 2 Warders unarmed. Lan easily disarmed an armed Byar, move like lightning (book 1).

[aranyaka]

Mat may be good, but you have to recall him in the Stone, quarterstaff versus blademaster, did not work, yeah he beat the two boys in White tower, then Couladin, but we don't see him going up against, blademasters...

 

Why, am I misunderstanding? I always thought this means Mat beat a blademaster with a quarterstaff.

 

The High Lord’s face reddened with indignation at being interrupted, but Mat gave him no time for any outraged comment. Quarterstaff whirling in a tight double-loop weave, so quick the staff blurred at the ends, he leaped forward. It was all a snarling Darlin could do to keep the staff from him. For the moment. Mat knew he could not keep this up very long, and if he was lucky then, it would all go back to to the strike and counterstrike. If he was lucky. But he had no intention of counting on luck this time. As soon as the High Lord had a moment to set himself in a pattern of defense, Mat altered his attack in midwhirl. The end of the staff Darlin had been expecting at his head dipped instead to sweep his legs out from under him. The other end did strike at his head then, as he fell, a sharp crack that rolled his eyes back up in his head.

[Wolf505]

The loss of an eye will only make Mat rely on his luck even more, which will likely make him even more dangerous. A Rabbit For Supper demonstrated this when Mat managed to knife a rabbit without even knowing it was there.

 

Agreed. Missing an eye is only going to make Mat even more deadly since it will take thinking even more out of the picture and luck more into it. Mat's fighting style has always been pretty chaotic (no sword forms, no premeditated tactics etc.) but with the missing eye it will be even moreso. That's one of the reasons he beat Galad and Gawyn so easily, they were used to fighting people using a sword and when Mat came in with his chaotic fighting style it completely stimied them. It's like what happens when students of certain martial arts get into street brawls. They tend to get their asses handed to them because they only train against people who use their style. That's one of the reasons MMA is so popular these days since it mixes multiple forms.

[Luckers]

Lol, it's not really a position for this question, but one of my favourite lines in the books was by Perrin about Rhuarc and Lan where he says that he was 'not sure which of the two men was more dangerous, but he was certain a mouse could starve on the difference.'

[Vardar]

Lol, it's not really a position for this question, but one of my favourite lines in the books was by Perrin about Rhuarc and Lan where he says that he was 'not sure which of the two men was more dangerous, but he was certain a mouse could starve on the difference.'

 

That paragraph always gives me chills.

[ViperThreat]

I'm going with Perrin on this one. He is beast-mode. Litterally.

 

 

Thats not to say that others arent in competiton, but for sheer intimidation and raw power factor, Perrin has them beat hands down.

 

Swords and staffs cut and slice, Perrin obliterates.

[thisguy]

This doesn't answer the question either but, one of my favorite fight scenes is Rand killing Rochaid in Far Madding. It's one of the few scenes where the fighting is just described as a staff whirling or axe hewing or describing sword forms.

Rand uses one hand to stop Rochaid from drawing his sword, his other hand brakes his thorax with a knuckle punch, hit to the sternum, ducks the other guy's sword strike whichends up striking Rochaid and rolls and pulls that sword out and into position. BEAUTIFUL!!!!

 

Another good one is the beginning of Book 3 - Rand's known to be the DR. They're hiding out in the mountains. Attacked by trollocs and myrdraal. Perrin calls the wolves and then kills wolf style. Drops to his knees to hamstring an enemy and then stands and decapitates. Unfortunately, after that most of Perrin's fight scenes are - he methodically hews down his opponents, axe biting into flesh... blah blah blah

[driedraspberry]

This doesn't answer the question either but, one of my favorite fight scenes is Rand killing Rochaid in Far Madding. It's one of the few scenes where the fighting is just described as a staff whirling or axe hewing or describing sword forms.

Rand uses one hand to stop Rochaid from drawing his sword, his other hand brakes his thorax with a knuckle punch, hit to the sternum, ducks the other guy's sword strike whichends up striking Rochaid and rolls and pulls that sword out and into position. BEAUTIFUL!!!!

 

Another good one is the beginning of Book 3 - Rand's known to be the DR. They're hiding out in the mountains. Attacked by trollocs and myrdraal. Perrin calls the wolves and then kills wolf style. Drops to his knees to hamstring an enemy and then stands and decapitates. Unfortunately, after that most of Perrin's fight scenes are - he methodically hews down his opponents, axe biting into flesh... blah blah blah

 

Yes! Both are vividly etched into my memory. Perfect moments.

[Mulk]

Perrin is downright vicious when he fights. I shivered the time he chopped a horse down from under a Myrddraal; I'm not sure who else would have done that to kill a Myrddraal. He fights with emotion and his raw physical strength added to his emotional edge make him exceedingly dangerous in combat. That being said, Lan, Rand (pre-losing his hand) and probably a few others could beat him, assuming of course Perrin never lines them up for a full power smash - which would never happen, as Perrin would never spar that hard against someone he wasn't intending to kill.

 

Now, if you're talking fighting in TAR, Slayer is the best, Perrin closing fast behind him. Perrin has almost killed Luc/Isam twice, though he nearly paid with his life the second time; though, granted, the first was likely because Slayer underestimated Perrin. I rather doubt either Perrin or Slayer survive that second meeting without healers present.

 

I like Perrin. So sue me. :) To the original question, I have to think that Lan's personal combat experience and life in the Blight would probably barely win out over Mat's luck and skill in a straight up fight where the fate of the world wasn't at stake. If it was, Mat wins.

[Vardar]

Perrin is downright vicious when he fights. I shivered the time he chopped a horse down from under a Myrddraal; I'm not sure who else would have done that to kill a Myrddraal. He fights with emotion and his raw physical strength added to his emotional edge make him exceedingly dangerous in combat. That being said, Lan, Rand (pre-losing his hand) and probably a few others could beat him, assuming of course Perrin never lines them up for a full power smash - which would never happen, as Perrin would never spar that hard against someone he wasn't intending to kill.

 

Now, if you're talking fighting in TAR, Slayer is the best, Perrin closing fast behind him. Perrin has almost killed Luc/Isam twice, though he nearly paid with his life the second time; though, granted, the first was likely because Slayer underestimated Perrin. I rather doubt either Perrin or Slayer survive that second meeting without healers present.

 

I like Perrin. So sue me. :) To the original question, I have to think that Lan's personal combat experience and life in the Blight would probably barely win out over Mat's luck and skill in a straight up fight where the fate of the world wasn't at stake. If it was, Mat wins.

 

Quarterstaff vs a Sword, staff always wins, unless the staff bearer sucks horribly.

 

IDK about Slayer in TAR. I think Perrin has surpassed him now.

[thisguy]

Perrin is downright vicious when he fights. I shivered the time he chopped a horse down from under a Myrddraal; I'm not sure who else would have done that to kill a Myrddraal. He fights with emotion and his raw physical strength added to his emotional edge make him exceedingly dangerous in combat. That being said, Lan, Rand (pre-losing his hand) and probably a few others could beat him, assuming of course Perrin never lines them up for a full power smash - which would never happen, as Perrin would never spar that hard against someone he wasn't intending to kill.

 

Now, if you're talking fighting in TAR, Slayer is the best, Perrin closing fast behind him. Perrin has almost killed Luc/Isam twice, though he nearly paid with his life the second time; though, granted, the first was likely because Slayer underestimated Perrin. I rather doubt either Perrin or Slayer survive that second meeting without healers present.

 

I like Perrin. So sue me. :) To the original question, I have to think that Lan's personal combat experience and life in the Blight would probably barely win out over Mat's luck and skill in a straight up fight where the fate of the world wasn't at stake. If it was, Mat wins.

 

Quarterstaff vs a Sword, staff always wins, unless the staff bearer sucks horribly.

 

IDK about Slayer in TAR. I think Perrin has surpassed him now.

How is that? They never said that in the book, that the staff always wins. They throw out one story during warder training as a lesson. I think more Warders would carry a staff if that were true.

[Kamin_Majere]

How is that? They never said that in the book, that the staff always wins. They throw out one story during warder training as a lesson. I think more Warders would carry a staff if that were true.

 

Its because in real life a staff wielder will almost always beat a sword wielder unless the caliber of the warriors facing each other is just totally skewed in the sword users favor. Nothing against the sword because it is a wonderful weapon made to kill, but a staff has to many advantages over a sword in a normal fight. Its not as deadly with out a good hand though so "warriors" have inevitably chosen swords through out the ages.

[thisguy]

How is that? They never said that in the book, that the staff always wins. They throw out one story during warder training as a lesson. I think more Warders would carry a staff if that were true.

 

Its because in real life a staff wielder will almost always beat a sword wielder unless the caliber of the warriors facing each other is just totally skewed in the sword users favor. Nothing against the sword because it is a wonderful weapon made to kill, but a staff has to many advantages over a sword in a normal fight. Its not as deadly with out a good hand though so "warriors" have inevitably chosen swords through out the ages.

As we see from Mat's pov - a quarterstaff is not much different than a spear. This is why he can use the spear so adeptly.

As we see from the Aiel's POV when Rand walks through the terangreal at Rhuidean, the Aiel cut down their spears so that they use them with more speed than a sword. An Aiel even says how difficult it is to learn to use a normal sized spear correctly.

 

I do not think a staff always wins against a sword either, in real life - all things being equal in skill with the users.

[Vardar]

How is that? They never said that in the book, that the staff always wins. They throw out one story during warder training as a lesson. I think more Warders would carry a staff if that were true.

 

Its because in real life a staff wielder will almost always beat a sword wielder unless the caliber of the warriors facing each other is just totally skewed in the sword users favor. Nothing against the sword because it is a wonderful weapon made to kill, but a staff has to many advantages over a sword in a normal fight. Its not as deadly with out a good hand though so "warriors" have inevitably chosen swords through out the ages.

 

They said it in the book too. Well not directly, but it was pretty obvious.

 

It's kinda like a dagger vs a sword. Sure plently of dagger weilding men have killed men with swords, but generally speaking, you'll lose.

[thisguy]

They gave one example. I find it hard to believe that most Warders would lose to most shepherds who use the quarterstaff. The example was given as education and advice. As Han Solo said. "That's great, kid. Don't get cocky."

[Mulk]

yeah, the one example they give (aside from Mat v. Gawyn and Galad) is completely lacking in details besides the name of the guy who lost. We don't know if the farmer who beat him was as good as anyone in the world, or if Jearom underestimated him (which was definitely part of why Gawyn and Galad lost, though he might have won anyway) or anything else of consequence. The point of Hammar saying what he did was simply that you can NEVER take an opponent likely. Gawyn was out of the fight before he had time to realize his error and Galad had pretty obviously never fought one of any real skill with the staff before.

 

The staff is easier to use at least in the beginning than a sword. Also, given how well it fits with someone who is quick and agile, it's easy to see how a staff wielder might have an advantage in the average fight. Lan is not the average fight. Lan has defeated superior and similarly gifted swordsmen as well, not to mention trollocs and fades beyond number; he knows how to take a wound in order to win a fight. He's killed things in the Blight that Mat probably doesn't even know the name of, let alone know how to fight and he's been doing that since before Mat was born. Mat has his own list of pluses that we are all aware of; I'm not trying to denigrate him. I just think that given everything we know, if the Pattern doesn't specifically need Mat to win, Lan is probably just a touch better. That's not a knock on Mat, merely a tip of the hat to the guy that RJ and BS seem to think is the single deadliest fighter. If we disagree, so be it. I just think it's a wild overstatement to say that the staff wielder will win unless he screws up.

[Kamin_Majere]

As we see from Mat's pov - a quarterstaff is not much different than a spear. This is why he can use the spear so adeptly.

As we see from the Aiel's POV when Rand walks through the terangreal at Rhuidean, the Aiel cut down their spears so that they use them with more speed than a sword. An Aiel even says how difficult it is to learn to use a normal sized spear correctly.

 

I do not think a staff always wins against a sword either, in real life - all things being equal in skill with the users.

Are you talking about a pike mans spear or a short spear. If a short spear than yes, it can be used exactly like a staff with the addition of a spear head on one end (and usually a small weight on the other to counter balance it and make a more effective striking edge)

 

As to the Aiel spears, remember they used the long ones. It was the man that broke one for the woman wanting to fight with them that came to the realization that a short spear was an amazing weapon (which is true) and better than a sword

 

And yes you cannot say always, but almost always is the truth. Counting equal skill the staff is the superior weapon. It has longer reach and much faster striking, blocking, and recovery (which are all part of a single flow).

 

Swords are used more by warriors because you can give a sword to anyone and they are deadly enough for most purposes. A staff is at its core a non lethal weapon, but used correctly it can be deadly... add a spear head to one end and a metal ball on the other and you have a VERY deadly weapon capable of not only cutting and stabbing but breaking bones with ease

 

The staff is easier to use at least in the beginning than a sword. Also, given how well it fits with someone who is quick and agile, it's easy to see how a staff wielder might have an advantage in the average fight. Lan is not the average fight. Lan has defeated superior and similarly gifted swordsmen as well, not to mention trollocs and fades beyond number; he knows how to take a wound in order to win a fight. He's killed things in the Blight that Mat probably doesn't even know the name of, let alone know how to fight and he's been doing that since before Mat was born. Mat has his own list of pluses that we are all aware of; I'm not trying to denigrate him. I just think that given everything we know, if the Pattern doesn't specifically need Mat to win, Lan is probably just a touch better. That's not a knock on Mat, merely a tip of the hat to the guy that RJ and BS seem to think is the single deadliest fighter. If we disagree, so be it. I just think it's a wild overstatement to say that the staff wielder will win unless he screws up.

 

Its not so much about the person being fast and agile (i've seen many people use a sword both fast and agility) its the staff itself that is. When you can make a block a strike and a recovery all in the same move you have an advantage against a sword that cannot. When you add in the range increase you are now much more capable or controlling the tempo of the fight.

 

Swords are very different weapons than staves though and are better at some things (just like hammers/maces are better at others) and you are right when you need to make large cuts (like fighting worms in the blight) a sword is definitely a superior weapon or even fighting against a typical european knight (though i would chose a mace in that particular fight). But against the typical light armored people in randland i would chose a staff/spear any time as its better in almost every way in those fights than a sword.

 

As to Lan, you are correct he is insanely deadly and i would not like to watch him and Mat fight to the death because i think they would both have a chance to die there (and i like them both)

[thisguy]

As we see from Mat's pov - a quarterstaff is not much different than a spear. This is why he can use the spear so adeptly.

As we see from the Aiel's POV when Rand walks through the terangreal at Rhuidean, the Aiel cut down their spears so that they use them with more speed than a sword. An Aiel even says how difficult it is to learn to use a normal sized spear correctly.

 

I do not think a staff always wins against a sword either, in real life - all things being equal in skill with the users.

Are you talking about a pike mans spear or a short spear. If a short spear than yes, it can be used exactly like a staff with the addition of a spear head on one end (and usually a small weight on the other to counter balance it am make a more effective striking edge)

 

As to the Aiel spears, remember they used the long ones. It was the man that broke one for the woman wanting to fight with them that came to the realization that a short spear was an amazing weapon (which is true) and better than a sword

 

And yes you cannot say always, but almost always is the truth. Counting equal skill the staff is the superior weapon. It has longer reach and much faster striking, blocking, and recovery (which are all part of a single flow).

 

Swords are used more by warriors because you can give a sword to anyone and they are deadly enough for most purposes. A staff is at its core a non lethal weapon, but used correctly it can be deadly... add a spear head to one end and a metal ball on the other and you have a VERY deadly weapon capable of not only cutting and stabbing but breaking bones with ease

That's my point, the Aiel cut down their spears to get speed over sword users. I don't agree that a staff is non lethal at it's core. It just has far more non lethal applications.

Yes, I have a decent understanding of many medieval and Eastern weapons. I don't agree that a staff always win when skill is equal.

[thisguy]

yeah, the one example they give (aside from Mat v. Gawyn and Galad) is completely lacking in details besides the name of the guy who lost. We don't know if the farmer who beat him was as good as anyone in the world, or if Jearom underestimated him (which was definitely part of why Gawyn and Galad lost, though he might have won anyway) or anything else of consequence. The point of Hammar saying what he did was simply that you can NEVER take an opponent likely. Gawyn was out of the fight before he had time to realize his error and Galad had pretty obviously never fought one of any real skill with the staff before.

 

The staff is easier to use at least in the beginning than a sword. Also, given how well it fits with someone who is quick and agile, it's easy to see how a staff wielder might have an advantage in the average fight. Lan is not the average fight. Lan has defeated superior and similarly gifted swordsmen as well, not to mention trollocs and fades beyond number; he knows how to take a wound in order to win a fight. He's killed things in the Blight that Mat probably doesn't even know the name of, let alone know how to fight and he's been doing that since before Mat was born. Mat has his own list of pluses that we are all aware of; I'm not trying to denigrate him. I just think that given everything we know, if the Pattern doesn't specifically need Mat to win, Lan is probably just a touch better. That's not a knock on Mat, merely a tip of the hat to the guy that RJ and BS seem to think is the single deadliest fighter. If we disagree, so be it. I just think it's a wild overstatement to say that the staff wielder will win unless he screws up.

I agree.

[SuperFade]

We're all armchair tacticians in this discussion, so I don't think any of us have the battle experience to say for certain whether or not a quarterstaff is better than a sword. Even RJ wasn't that great at it - most of his one-on-one fight scenes involve him namedropping some nebulously impressive-sounding move or skill without any real explanation of how the swords are physically moving relative to one another. The Rochaid fight is impressive in my eyes because it averts that.

[thisguy]

We're all armchair tacticians in this discussion, so I don't think any of us have the battle experience to say for certain whether or not a quarterstaff is better than a sword. Even RJ wasn't that great at it - most of his one-on-one fight scenes involve him namedropping some nebulously impressive-sounding move or skill without any real explanation of how the swords are physically moving relative to one another. The Rochaid fight is impressive in my eyes because it averts that.

I agree with that. I will say this, in general, someone who knows how to use a weapon is better off in a fight than the person without a weapon - even if they know how to fight. However, in Randland, we know that Aiel have a good chance to beat an armed opponent. I doubt most people would rather be unarmed in a fight than armed, though. I think if quarterstaff wielding shepherds were so dangerous, all warders would be carrying a quarterstaff and a sword.

[Kamin_Majere]

True, but it also comes down to the mysticism of a sword. Notice that even the whole "a mouse could starve" comment about the difference in danger levels of Rhaurc and Lan there is no "spear master" title or anything like that. Swords have a place in humanities racial memory that cannot be replaced and that leads most "awesome" people in stories like this to use them.

 

[wants an army of quarterstaff wielding farmers now] lol

[thisguy]

True, but it also comes down to the mysticism of a sword. Notice that even the whole "a mouse could starve" comment about the difference in danger levels of Rhaurc and Lan there is no "spear master" title or anything like that. Swords have a place in humanities racial memory that cannot be replaced and that leads most "awesome" people in stories like this to use them.

 

[wants an army of quarterstaff wielding farmers now] lol

Hahaha :D

On a serious note: Rhuarc uses the Aiel super speed spear and not the shepherd's quarterstaff.

 

On a not so serious note: You and me, spear against sword, high noon, Saturday. If I don't stab myself to death accidentally, we'll see who's right.