Something new (to me) I noticed about Taim in EotW

[TootThatHorn]

So every time that I read EotW I'm reminded of how this was going to originally be a short series. This book in particular has so many things to it that simply don't fit in to it like the rest of the books. One thing that's major to me that I just noticed is Rand's dream he has in Baerlon, where he meets Ba'alzamon.

 

Eye of the World

Chapter 14: The Stag and the Lion

Page: 204

 

The flames laughed. "So there is some spirit in you after all. Perhaps you are the one. Little good it will do you. The Amyrlin Seat will use you until you are consumed, just as Davian was used, and Yurian Stonebow, and Guaire Amalasan, and Raolin Darksbane. Just as Logain is being used. Used until there is nothing left of you."

 

Now wasn't this the time that Taim was running rampant in Saldea? Yet Ba'alzamon mentions everyone that has been a false Dragon Reborn but him. With all the time of Taim having channeled and being sane, that alone points to him being a darkfriend. Also I feel like this omission of his name in the quote just goes to show that he has been Ba'alzamon's puppet this entire time.

 

Ishamael was free for quite awhile before this was he not? He has always plotted and schemed to throw out things that disrupt as much as possible. That is why I feel now more than ever that Taim has been Ishy's proxy since day one, if not Ishy himself, but if that is the case then I wouldn't see Ishy taking his form until post The Great Hunt.

 

Anyways, just something I noticed that stuck out to me, since if I re read any book EotW is one of the last nowadays so I haven't seen this in so long.

[Adam L Fuqua]

Never really took note of Taim's absence. It very well could be important. Could Ishmail have been, or been controlling Taim since before Rand let the two rivers.

[Sid]

The first news of Mazrim Taim comes in TGH chapter 4 'Summoned'. Three False Dragons have risen up in Tear, Murandy and Saldaea, but only the one in Saldaea can channel. This happens a quite awhile after Rand was in Baerlon.

[Neophyte]

I imagine that Ishamael trained Taim - I think Taim has been at least a Darkfriend for many years - but the timing isn't right for Taim to be mentioned to Rand in Baerlon. All of the other names were names that Rand would either recognize or could find out about (and possibly get in trouble for asking about). Thom (and many others) know who Davian, Yurian Stonebow, Guaire Amalasan, and Raolin Darksbane were. Rand himself knows who Logain is. But if he had come out asking about Mazrim Taim? He would have just gotten a bunch of blank stares.

 

The primary purpose of those dreams first few dreams, it seems to me, was for Ishamael to establish which of the boys was which - who was the wolf, who was the gambler, and who was the Dragon. But secondarily, it was to mess with the boys' heads and to try to drive wedges of suspicion between the people in the group. If Rand came out spouting stuff about the ancient false Dragons, it would have turned most Aes Sedai against him (not to mention most gleemen who knew the tales). Of course, Ishamael underestimated the calibre of Rand's companions, but throwing in Mazrim Taim would not have accomplished anything for Ishamael.

 

Sid is right - the timing just isn't there. Taim probably became active just after the incidents at the Eye (the timing of which is actually suspicious in and of itself). But there isn't really any significance to Ishamael leaving his name off the list of false Dragons - he wasn't one yet when the dream exchange took place.

[TootThatHorn]

The first news of Mazrim Taim comes in TGH chapter 4 'Summoned'. Three False Dragons have risen up in Tear, Murandy and Saldaea, but only the one in Saldaea can channel. This happens a quite awhile after Rand was in Baerlon.

 

Lan speaks of war in Saldea though when he is at the Stag and Lion in Baerlon. I felt pretty safe assuming this is Taim he is talking about and it just hasn't been revealed yet. Will have to check out that GH chapter

 

Edit: I gotta figure Taim wasn't mentioned by name because he is a shadow puppet (ya i said it) and for some reason Ishamael isn't wanting to mention him or doesn't think to because he is rattling off AS puppets.

[Neophyte]

Do you have a quote for that? Because the only two references to Saldaea that I can find in or around Baerlon are the gate guard Avin talking about a rumor of "some kind of trouble up there" referring to Saldaea in chapter 13, and innkeeper's assistant Ara talking about "Trollocs up in Saldaea." Nothing about a false Dragon of any kind, much less Mazrim Taim by name. It seems far more likely that this is a reference to the Blight stirring, as it was doing all through the Borderlands, and not to Mazrim Taim. Saldaea is pretty much due north of Baerlon, so its not surprising that they would hear of generalized trouble in the Blight from Saldaea first. Remember, when they get to Fal Dara in chapter 46 Lord Agelmar tells them:

 

"Kandor, Arafel, Saldaea - the Trollocs raided them all straight through the winter. Nothing like that has happened since the Trolloc Wars; the raids have never been so fierce, or so large, or pressed home so hard.

 

So, the trouble they hear about at the Stag and Lion in Baerlon is the Trolloc raids, not Mazrim Taim.

[Sid]

Lan speaks of war in Saldea though when he is at the Stag and Lion in Baerlon. I felt pretty safe assuming this is Taim he is talking about and it just hasn't been revealed yet. Will have to check out that GH chapter

 

Edit: I gotta figure Taim wasn't mentioned by name because he is a shadow puppet (ya i said it) and for some reason Ishamael isn't wanting to mention him or doesn't think to because he is rattling off AS puppets.

 

Do you mean the inn worker named Ara that mentioned that he heard there were Trollocs in Saldaea? Then Lan got mad because they kept talking about Trollocs when they shouldn't be bringing attention to themselves? I'm just saying that nobody knew about Mazrim Taim yet like Neophyte mentioned. And after looking it up, Moiraine actually finds out Mazrim Taim's name for the first time in the chapter after, TGH ch 5 'The Shadow in Shienar'.

 

 

Edit: a tip of the cap to Neophyte for beating me to the reply

[Kestrel]

Why do we assume that Mazrim Taim was ALWAYS Ishmael/Moridin? Why not consider that Mazrim Taim was originally just a current-age man who could channel, perhaps a darkfriend trained by Ishmael running around causing his own chaos?

 

I suggest Taim started out as his own self, but became seduced by The Dark Side and became an Ishmael minion. Later, after Ishmael/Moridin got all the use he wanted out his minion, Ishmael eliminated him and dumped the body. Then Ishmael started impersonating Taim.

 

It's been done before.

[TootThatHorn]

The quotes you mentioned are the quotes that I would reference. Foreshadowing is so huge in these books I can't imagine why Taim wouldn't be alluded to one book before he is truly mentioned. Sure, assuming it's trollocs is fine, but it's in the least no better than assuming it is the start of what Taim does in Saldea, which is a better theory if you ask me due to the location and timing of it happening, and the fact that not everything is spelled out in these books, but are hinted at all the time.

[yoniy0]

Why do we assume that Mazrim Taim was ALWAYS Ishmael/Moridin?

I actually don't think anyone has in this thread. I know quite a few of us don't think Taim is Moridin even now.

[Sid]

The quotes you mentioned are the quotes that I would reference. Foreshadowing is so huge in these books I can't imagine why Taim wouldn't be alluded to one book before he is truly mentioned. Sure, assuming it's trollocs is fine, but it's in the least no better than assuming it is the start of what Taim does in Saldea, which is a better theory if you ask me due to the location and timing of it happening, and the fact that not everything is spelled out in these books, but are hinted at all the time.

O.K. All we were saying is that Bhalzamon leaving Taim's name off the list of false dragons in Rand's dream doesn't really mean a lot, because literally nobody outside of Saldaea and probably most of the people in Saldaea have any idea who Mazrim Taim is. Bhalzamon's aims are to keep Lews Therin reborn from trusting any Aes Sedai including the driving a wedge of doubt between him and the Aes Sedai they're all currently depending on, who quite frankly is the sole reason they got away from the several fists of trollocs in the area. His list of false dragons wouldn't be augmented any by mentioning Taim at this point whether Taim has actually done anything yet or not.

 

The rumors of 'troubles' and 'trollocs' from Saldaea could really be the barest hint of the beginnings of Mazrim Taim's uprising, but even before Agelmar speaks about trollocs all over the borderlands, Bayle Domon mentions that trollocs have been bothering him since he started south down the river in Saldaea. We've seen that Bayle Domon is quite adept at finding information and deciphering rumors, yet he came directly from Saldaea and never mentions anything but trollocs.

[Neophyte]

Why do we assume that Mazrim Taim was ALWAYS Ishmael/Moridin? Why not consider that Mazrim Taim was originally just a current-age man who could channel, perhaps a darkfriend trained by Ishmael running around causing his own chaos?

 

I suggest Taim started out as his own self, but became seduced by The Dark Side and became an Ishmael minion. Later, after Ishmael/Moridin got all the use he wanted out his minion, Ishmael eliminated him and dumped the body. Then Ishmael started impersonating Taim.

 

It's been done before.

 

I don't assume that Taim was Ishamael/Moridin now, or that he was then. Mazrim Taim is Mazrim Taim - I do think it is likely that he was a Darkfriend before he declared himself as Dragon, during the period of time between TEoTW and TGH.

 

The quotes you mentioned are the quotes that I would reference. Foreshadowing is so huge in these books I can't imagine why Taim wouldn't be alluded to one book before he is truly mentioned. Sure, assuming it's trollocs is fine, but it's in the least no better than assuming it is the start of what Taim does in Saldea, which is a better theory if you ask me due to the location and timing of it happening, and the fact that not everything is spelled out in these books, but are hinted at all the time.

 

The thing is, we're not "assuming" it is Trollocs. That is what the people involved said. Including Agelmar Jagad, who is in a position to get reliable intelligence on the situation - his report wasn't just some rumor.

 

And it is just too early, when Rand and the boys are in Baerlon, for Taim to have already started. People often underestimate the amount of time between the end of TEoTW and TGH - but it over a month. Between the amount of time the group spent traveling to and waiting in Caemlyn, and then the month plus just waiting in Fal Dara, there is about three or four months between the incidents at Baerlon and the beginning of The Great Hunt. Then you have to account for the time that it would have taken news and rumors to reach Baerlon from Saldaea. That puts the source time of the rumors at about ... wait for it ... the winter of 997-998 NE. Exactly when Jagad said there were massive Trolloc raids all across the Borderlands, specifically including Saldaea. If there was even a rumor of a false Dragon who could channel, he would surely have mentioned it to Moiraine. But all we hear about, both in Baerlon and in Shienar, both as rumor and as reliable military report, is ... Trollocs.

 

Sorry man. It's just not there.

[Mazrim182]

My opinion is that RJ hadn't thought up the character of Mazrim Taim at that point which is why he wasn't mentioned :p

[fuzz1717]

My opinion is that RJ hadn't thought up the character of Mazrim Taim at that point which is why he wasn't mentioned :p

Thats the easiest explanation. Wasn't this originally supposed to be a trilogy? Its a bit more difficult to stuff 2000+ characters into a trilogy than into 14 books...

[Tiberius]

My opinion is that RJ hadn't thought up the character of Mazrim Taim at that point which is why he wasn't mentioned :p

Thats the easiest explanation. Wasn't this originally supposed to be a trilogy? Its a bit more difficult to stuff 2000+ characters into a trilogy than into 14 books...

That, or Taim had not proclaimed himself at that point. He may have been causing the trouble "up north", but not have claimed to be the dragon reborn at that point. The reds were still working on him...

[mrdravid]

Moirane is surpised in one of the earlier books (I think TDR, re Mesema sprouting about Rand) about another false dragon when the pattern no longer has a need for one. Was this before or after we know about Taim?

[thisguy]

I'm not sure, but it's not until Rand fight Ish (in his Ba'alzamon guise) in the sky over Falme that his true announcement as the Dragon Reborn is made and people see it all over Randland. I remember Taim is battling the AS and sundry when Rand's battle is broadcast in the sky above them and then Taim is taken.

[TootThatHorn]

My opinion is that RJ hadn't thought up the character of Mazrim Taim at that point which is why he wasn't mentioned :p

Thats the easiest explanation. Wasn't this originally supposed to be a trilogy? Its a bit more difficult to stuff 2000+ characters into a trilogy than into 14 books...

That, or Taim had not proclaimed himself at that point. He may have been causing the trouble "up north", but not have claimed to be the dragon reborn at that point. The reds were still working on him...

 

This is what I was thinking, only maybe with the blacks working on him instead of the reds

[Xader]

I, for one, have never thought that Taim could be Moridin.

 

I don't have quotes to back me up, but I always felt that Taim seemed to be building himself up to rule after TLB. He also seems to be a very angry and cruel person.

 

But what we know of Ishy/Moridin is that he has always been a pragmatist and a nihilist. Cruelty, anger and power trips just don't suit that personality type. He's just working toward the end of existence.

 

Nothing concrete, but that's my take on it.

[Morden]

Has anyone else wondered whether the Red Sisters who captured Taim or the black who helped break him free could have done a 13x13 on him?

 

My reasoning for this is: He was captured by Red's who have a large number of black sisters among them. and the BA planned on breaking him free in order to cause Rand trouble by committing atrocities in the Dragon Reborn's name.

 

Then Rand issues his amnesty and a new possibility opens up to Taim to get close to Rand, something the DO's forces always attempt whenever possible.

 

Its just too convenient that the BA planned on breaking him free. and low and behold he gets freed. Rand and Co ignored this and let him have a nice job training men to channel. To my knowledge no one even considered him being a plant.

[flinn]

I think Taim was turned by 13 after he was captured and then allowed to "escape".

[Tiberius]

Has anyone else wondered whether the Red Sisters who captured Taim or the black who helped break him free could have done a 13x13 on him?

 

My reasoning for this is: He was captured by Red's who have a large number of black sisters among them. and the BA planned on breaking him free in order to cause Rand trouble by committing atrocities in the Dragon Reborn's name.

 

Then Rand issues his amnesty and a new possibility opens up to Taim to get close to Rand, something the DO's forces always attempt whenever possible.

 

Its just too convenient that the BA planned on breaking him free. and low and behold he gets freed. Rand and Co ignored this and let him have a nice job training men to channel. To my knowledge no one even considered him being a plant.

I don't think Taim needed to be 13x13'd. He doesn't seem like the type that needed much persuasion to turn to the dark all on his own. Promises of power, the lure of "the dark side", his personality type, all made him ripe for the plucking. I'm sure he is a baddy by choice.

[yoniy0]

But what we know of Ishy/Moridin is that he has always been a pragmatist and a nihilist. Cruelty, anger and power trips just don't suit that personality type. He's just working toward the end of existence.

And yet we've seen him having spells of uncontrollable anger, when he even accidentally kills a servant. And we've seen him being cruel when cruelty was warranted (such as, with Moghedien).

Not that I think Taim is Moridin, mind you.

[pamela]

Has anyone else wondered whether the Red Sisters who captured Taim or the black who helped break him free could have done a 13x13 on him?

 

My reasoning for this is: He was captured by Red's who have a large number of black sisters among them. and the BA planned on breaking him free in order to cause Rand trouble by committing atrocities in the Dragon Reborn's name.

 

Then Rand issues his amnesty and a new possibility opens up to Taim to get close to Rand, something the DO's forces always attempt whenever possible.

 

Its just too convenient that the BA planned on breaking him free. and low and behold he gets freed. Rand and Co ignored this and let him have a nice job training men to channel. To my knowledge no one even considered him being a plant.

I think Taim was turned by 13 after he was captured and then allowed to "escape".

 

It's not a probable option - note that he behaves naturally, whereas an oddity about the 13x13d people seems to be noticeable at the first glance, like in case of Mezar. But, guys, do we really need another Taim thread?

[flinn]

Has anyone else wondered whether the Red Sisters who captured Taim or the black who helped break him free could have done a 13x13 on him?

 

My reasoning for this is: He was captured by Red's who have a large number of black sisters among them. and the BA planned on breaking him free in order to cause Rand trouble by committing atrocities in the Dragon Reborn's name.

 

Then Rand issues his amnesty and a new possibility opens up to Taim to get close to Rand, something the DO's forces always attempt whenever possible.

 

Its just too convenient that the BA planned on breaking him free. and low and behold he gets freed. Rand and Co ignored this and let him have a nice job training men to channel. To my knowledge no one even considered him being a plant.

I think Taim was turned by 13 after he was captured and then allowed to "escape".

 

It's not a probable option - note that he behaves naturally, whereas an oddity about the 13x13d people seems to be noticeable at the first glance, like in case of Mezar. But, guys, do we really need another Taim thread?

I am not sure I buy that since we didnt know what Taim was like before to really compare a before and after. From the chapters in ToM where the sisters appear to be getting turned, those close to them could see a difference in behavior.