Prince of Ravens: Painful Truths

[Winespring Patron]

KOD, Ch 36

 

Mat explains his beforehand knowledge to Tuon:

 

"I went through a ter'angreal to somewhere else, another world maybe. The people there aren't really people--they look like snakes--but they'll answer three questions for you, and their answers are always true. One of mine was that I'd marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons..."

 

One of the few times Mat comes clean with the truth and what is his reward? Being publicly rapped on the head and lectured about harboring superstitions and telling lies.

 

Contrast to this passage in TGS, Ch 19

 

Tuon reacts to Tylee's disclosure:

 

Tuon felt she should be shocked. But, oddly, she wasn't. So Matrim was not mistaken about this, she signed covertly to Selucia. And she had assumed Trollocs to be nothing more than superstition. She glanced at the heads again. Revolting.

Selucia seemed troubled. Are there other things he said that we discounted, I wonder?

Tuon hesitated. We shall have to ask him. I should very much like to have him back...

 

Poor Mat, this doesn't bode well for his reunion. Fortuona and Selucia are going to turn it into an interrogation / debriefing; reviewing all his "superstitions" and determining which of his "lies" can be reclassified...

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

On the plus side, if they want him back he should at least be able to ask them about meeting the Dragon

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think those "superstitions" of his will be rather low on Tuon's priority when she sees Mat again. By then he might have been named supreme commander of the armies of the Dragon/Light and have the Horn of Valere in his saddlebag for all we know and she will be much more interested in whatever he has to say about the future than to talk about the past.

Besides she will no doubt be fussing about his lost eye and try to find out how else reality compares to what Selucia told her about men. Only after all that will come stuff about the Finn and so on.

[Orderofolde]

Or Tuon will channel to heal his lost eye, lol. Honestly, it seems that Mat's place will be at her side in this upcoming book. I can't wait for the interaction to begin, with Selucia adding her own disparaging remarks.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Or Tuon will channel to heal his lost eye, lol. Honestly, it seems that Mat's place will be at her side in this upcoming book. I can't wait for the interaction to begin, with Selucia adding her own disparaging remarks.

 

The way BS writes him that might be better so. At least then we wouldn't have to hear the stuff about his smiles making random women fall for him again.

[FarShainMael]

Birgitte would fall for him right now..

[Pinzarn]

By then he might have been named supreme commander of the armies of the Dragon/Light

 

And I am still thinking that being the Prince of Ravens somehow gives him control over the Seanchan army. So while they could not be unified directly under Rand, they will be unified under Mat as supreme commander.

[spoke]

I think one of Tuon's first objectives will be to consummate their marriage.

[b3arz3rg3r]

By then he might have been named supreme commander of the armies of the Dragon/Light

 

And I am still thinking that being the Prince of Ravens somehow gives him control over the Seanchan army. So while they could not be unified directly under Rand, they will be unified under Mat as supreme commander.

 

I doubt he is by default. Not every Prince of Raven- is that even his title now that Tuon has become empress?- has been a general and the Seanchan are firm believers in ability. That said I think Tuon will entrust her armies to his command. Because she trusts him and is convinced of his ability.

And if the Seanchan and the Dragon support Mat as the supreme commander not even Egwene will be in any position to oppose Mat. Which she would probably do otherwise because from what I gather she is still unaware of his ability in that regard.

[LoLPoR]

I imagine Mat will be in charge of the armies but as Prince of the Ravens is anyone else interested if he'll have to shave his head. I hope he has to shave it so far up both sides it looks like a mohawk.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I imagine Mat will be in charge of the armies but as Prince of the Ravens is anyone else interested if he'll have to shave his head. I hope he has to shave it so far up both sides it looks like a mohawk.

 

I think that can be taken as given. That's how Seanchan nobles signify rank and there is only one above Mat. Also, among the main cast Mat just has the least dominant personality. I doubt he would put up much of a struggle against Tuon in this regard.

[Pinzarn]

I doubt he is by default. Not every Prince of Raven- is that even his title now that Tuon has become empress?- has been a general and the Seanchan are firm believers in ability. That said I think Tuon will entrust her armies to his command. Because she trusts him and is convinced of his ability.

And if the Seanchan and the Dragon support Mat as the supreme commander not even Egwene will be in any position to oppose Mat. Which she would probably do otherwise because from what I gather she is still unaware of his ability in that regard.

 

I only mentioned control of the Seanchan forces not a general. I know the First Prince of Andor (Gawyn) is by default the general of the Andorian forces. I am just thinking that being married to the Empress (may she live forever) will grant Mat some sort of control or influence over the direction of the army. This goes along with my theory that the Seanchan forces headed to the White Tower will come across Camelyn. Somehow, someway, they will find Mat, and he will direct them to fight the Shadowspawn. I feel i would be an easy plot tool to really tie the Seanchan to the Dragon.

[yoniy0]

The First Prince of the Sword isn't the prince consort, however. Even if he were, it has no bearing on Seanchan practices. The fact that Mat's title hasn't changed when Tuon became Empress also speaks of the unlikelihood of what you're suggesting.

[Apple Scruff]

Birgitte would fall for him right now..

 

I don't think even losing an eye will make Mat ugly enough for Birgitte!

[nolirion]

Do you think Matt would care one bit about Seanchan Ranking ?

[JakeBarnes]

This is kind of off-topic, but I was kind of hoping for a one-eyed Mat on the cover of AMOL. Oh well, maybe on the alternate cover...

[yoniy0]

Not that you said much, but let me remind everyone that the cover is considered spoilers, to be discussed in the other board.

[Knivy]

The First Prince of the Sword isn't the prince consort, however. Even if he were, it has no bearing on Seanchan practices. The fact that Mat's title hasn't changed when Tuon became Empress also speaks of the unlikelihood of what you're suggesting.

 

Do we know the title didnt change?

[Pinzarn]

The First Prince of the Sword isn't the prince consort, however. Even if he were, it has no bearing on Seanchan practices. The fact that Mat's title hasn't changed when Tuon became Empress also speaks of the unlikelihood of what you're suggesting.

 

Sorry I brought the First Prince into the discussion. I was pointing out that I know there are some "default" generals just by their title and relationship. But once again, I am not talking about rank, I am talking about control.

 

Like I said, there is a certain level of control or power when you are married to the Empress. Title doesn't matter, he is married to the Empress. Now, it could be that in Seanchan that means nothing, but if it means nothing it was a red herring for many books, and an entire plotline that could have been spent elsewhere.

 

I know my thought is RAFO, but I have been angling towards Mat has some level of control (not command) over the Seanchan army now even though he doesn't know it. Too many things have aligned for it to be easily dismissed.

[yoniy0]

Do we know the title didnt change?

Yes:

Would Matrim be equally loyal? What would it be like, to have a Prince of the Ravens whom she did not have to plot against? It seemed almost a fantasy, the type of tale told to common children to make them dteam of an impossible marriage.

 

I have been angling towards Mat has some level of control (not command) over the Seanchan army now even though he doesn't know it.

I don't doubt that he could order them, unless they're under superseding orders from someone else. I just don't think his title allows him direct command of the Ever Victorious Army, is all.

[Knivy]

Thank you :)

 

I really wish we knew more about seanchan government.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

As prince of the ravens isnt he second or third highest ranking in seanchan? Tuon, then selucia then mat. As he is already part of the royal family. Wouldnt this mean that he has control in the respect that if he told the army to stand down they would(or something like that)

[Maleshub]

Do we know the title didnt change?

Yes:

Would Matrim be equally loyal? What would it be like, to have a Prince of the Ravens whom she did not have to plot against? It seemed almost a fantasy, the type of tale told to common children to make them dteam of an impossible marriage.

 

I have been angling towards Mat has some level of control (not command) over the Seanchan army now even though he doesn't know it.

I don't doubt that he could order them, unless they're under superseding orders from someone else. I just don't think his title allows him direct command of the Ever Victorious Army, is all.

 

Whether it is an error or not, there is a quote to indicate that the title has changed. When Mat married Tuon, he became "Prince of the Ravens." Here is what Musange said in KoD:

 

That stone mask crumpled in astonishment. “I could not do that, Highness,” he said in scandalized tones. “When she married you. you became Prince of the Ravens. To speak your name would lower my eyes forever.”

 

But in her meeting with Rand (TGS), Tuon (who had decided to become Empress right after her meeting with Rand) referred to him as "First Prince of the Ravens."

 

Matrim would not like that, but he would have to see reason. He was First Prince of the Ravens. He needed to be raised to the High Blood, shave his head and learn the proper way of living. That all seemed a shame to her—for reasons she could not explain to herself.

[yoniy0]

That's most likely an error, inspired by Gawyn (First Prince of the Sword), but either way -- Tuon wasn't Empress yet back then, and afterwards she refers to him again in the original title. Therefore, it has nothing to do with her ascension.

[Maleshub]

That's most likely an error, inspired by Gawyn (First Prince of the Sword), but either way -- Tuon wasn't Empress yet back then, and afterwards she refers to him again in the original title. Therefore, it has nothing to do with her ascension.

 

True, she said the "I am the Empress" line a couple of hours after the meeting. But in her mind, she was the Empress and the "First Prince of the Ravens" title was during a thought, not a public utterance. As to her later reference to him as "Prince of the Ravens," where was it? Sorry, but I don't remember that reference is.