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ter'angreal and angreal, another overlook


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(I tried to make that title interesting :P)

 

But seriously. I'm a little lot annoyed by the lack of effort by Aviendha and Elayne to expand the side of the light's access to ter'angreal and angreal(I have little hope for finding more sa'angreal). The WT has done little in this effort as well, but at least most of the AS don't have access to the particular talents and Elayne and Aviendha. Obviously Moirance recongnized the importance of these items as seen with the large amount of effort put into retreaving items from rhuidean, but she lacked the ability to actually decern what each did. Even Ny shows her forsight in acquiring ter'angreal/angreal, plus we can see how advantagous they are to Cad. Even when compared to the Dragons I still see ter'angreal and angreal as more important tools for fighting the DO.

 

Now I know both of these characters are busy, but we can all travel now. It's not that big a deal to pop in for a day and search through some stuff. All of the uncharacterized ter'angreal in the tower and all lof the stuff moir brought back needs to be searched(i think she may have been able to check for angreal and sa'angreal, but she couldn't check what each ter'angreal did). Then there's all the stuff from the room with the bowl. We see how much of a difference Edge can make with the wand from the tower(yes i know it's a sa'angreal so something this powerful is unlikely to be unearthed, but still), even finding one of these could be a humongous swing for the light. Finding anything close could be huge as well. Why are they not putting more effor into this???? Every available effort should be put in by the WT to check the items they have. Now is not the time for caution. They should be searching everywhere especially for angreal, but even ter'angreal have incredibly power. Aviendha should be able to find a few useful things at the very least. The immediate example that comes to mind is the ter'angreal used by the BA against Ny and Elayne that blasts of fire balls. Yes, clearly not the safest thing to use, but when a wall of Trollocs is coming at you, you wouldn't even have to aim, just fire forward. Which now that I think about it sounds a lot like the power level of a Dragon.

 

Elayne with the talent to make ter'angreal could be doing amazing things to help for the battle as well. I'm not as annoyed by Elayne because I realize she has limited time and her ability actually doesn't always work and takes longer, but she could still be improving her talent and who know what she could be capable of. Maybe even making angeal(i need to check the books on this one, not sure if she says that's possible or not).

 

Ok, so maybe i ranted a little. My hope is that they have been doing this off screen and we'll find out about it later, but i seriously doubt it. I just can't understand how you don't use tools as powerful as this. Thoughts?

 

Edit: Now that I think about it, I guess Elayne and Aviendha did go through the items found in the room with the Bowl. I'm not sure if there was anything left that they couldn't carry?

Edited by Master of the Anvil
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Well, Elayne is pregnant and can't channel properly, and is also a bit busy ruling Andor (and later Cairhein). We have to look at this in terms of opportunity costs. Elayne could be, say making one fireball ter'angreal a day given her pregnancy, or she could be organizing supplies for 1000 troops. In the long run, perhaps, the ter'angreal may equal the troops in terms of killing potential, but lives are always more important to any competent ruler.

 

Also, while creating angreal and sa'angreal would be a massive benefit to the side of the light, Elayne does not have access to these things to study, and if they could be easily mass produced then there would be many more left over from the AoL. As we see relatively few angreal and even fewer sa'angreal, we can conclude that making one such tool would take a massive amount of time and channeling, something Elayne does not have access too from the point after she arrives in Andor for the first time.

 

In terms of the WT looking through their stocks, we have seen that without the Talent to see what a ter'angreal does, it is EXTREMELY risky to try to figure it out for yourself. So yes, maybe the WT could recruit Avi for a few days to see what all their ter'angreals do, but even then Avi doesn't know how to activate them and Avi is currently a bit busy figuring out the future of the Aiel and how to save them from the Seanchan.

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You know, I don't think we've ever seen the Seanchan with any of the items (angreal, ter'angreal, etc). Didn't the AoL cover all the lands?

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You know, I don't think we've ever seen the Seanchan with any of the items (angreal, ter'angreal, etc). Didn't the AoL cover all the lands?

 

Yeah i was actually thinking the same thing. I'm not sure about this. It's possible that they lost knowledge ot this when they leashed all channelers, or it is concievable that the rulling family has them all locked up in a vault. IDK

 

Well, Elayne is pregnant and can't channel properly, and is also a bit busy ruling Andor (and later Cairhein). We have to look at this in terms of opportunity costs. Elayne could be, say making one fireball ter'angreal a day given her pregnancy, or she could be organizing supplies for 1000 troops. In the long run, perhaps, the ter'angreal may equal the troops in terms of killing potential, but lives are always more important to any competent ruler.

 

Also, while creating angreal and sa'angreal would be a massive benefit to the side of the light, Elayne does not have access to these things to study, and if they could be easily mass produced then there would be many more left over from the AoL. As we see relatively few angreal and even fewer sa'angreal, we can conclude that making one such tool would take a massive amount of time and channeling, something Elayne does not have access too from the point after she arrives in Andor for the first time.

 

In terms of the WT looking through their stocks, we have seen that without the Talent to see what a ter'angreal does, it is EXTREMELY risky to try to figure it out for yourself. So yes, maybe the WT could recruit Avi for a few days to see what all their ter'angreals do, but even then Avi doesn't know how to activate them and Avi is currently a bit busy figuring out the future of the Aiel and how to save them from the Seanchan.

 

I acknowledged that Elayne is busy:

I'm not as annoyed by Elayne because I realize she has limited time and her ability actually doesn't always work and takes longer,

And I'm not sure how you're point about organizing supplies makes sense. As a queen she wouldn't do that, she would just sign off on what someone else decides. If you were just using that as an example that she is busy then I understand, but as i meantioned above, I already acknowledged this. Most of my post was in regards to searching through the items already in possession. I realize it's dangerous to test items without the talent, but i acknowledged this as well. "Now is not the time to be cautious" not to meantion, there's a possiblity with all the new novists that there could be someone else with Avi's talent.

 

This does make me think that they should also be searching for new items, possibly via the "need" concept in TAR.

Edited by Master of the Anvil
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And I'm not sure how you're point about organizing supplies makes sense. As a queen she wouldn't do that, she would just sign off on what someone else decides. If you were just using that as an example that she is busy then I understand, but as i meantioned above, I already acknowledged this. Most of my post was in regards to searching through the items already in possession. I realize it's dangerous to test items without the talent, but i acknowledged this as well. "Now is not the time to be cautious" not to meantion, there's a possiblity with all the new novists that there could be someone else with Avi's talent.

 

This does make me think that they should also be searching for new items, possibly via the "need" concept in TAR.

 

Well, we don't know if any of the novices have this talent, and it would be a waste of lives if they just threw the ter'angreal at the novices and hoped that eventually, one of them would puzzle out how to make it function. Maybe from a purely callous point of view, sure, novices aren't going to help much at TG. But they are human, and every life wasted (or every channeler burned out) is something unnecessary and from an ethical point of view, its just not right.

 

Also, the Need concept is rather vaguely defined. If it were so simple to just use Need to produce powerful ter'angreal/angreal/sa'angreal, then surely they would have done it already. Either that, or "Needed" up a way to win TG without losing any lives. Surely that is a need, right?

 

Just in general, the leaders of Randland should be trying to make a truce with the Seanchan. After all, the Seanchan have some way of mass producing a'dam (either that, or they have an endless supply, its never really made clear). I believe the a'dam is a form of ter'angreal, so why not just let the Seanchan study some destructive ter'angeral and have them copy it? They seem to have much more experience than Elayne, at least in the making of the a'dam, and i'm sure that if they can produce other ter'angreal.

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You know, I don't think we've ever seen the Seanchan with any of the items (angreal, ter'angreal, etc). Didn't the AoL cover all the lands?

 

Seanchan have ter'angreal.

 

The a'dam for one, although that was made after the breaking.

 

But they have others. The Crystal Throne, the Bloodrings etc..

 

They don't interact with items of the power the same way the White Tower does, (they wouldn't give a sa'angreal to a damane.) But they do have ter'angreal, and the damane can create a'dam. But they wouldn't want much to do with angreal and sa'angreal.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Actually the Seanchan should have more, since they obviously kept the ability to create Ter'angreal and such (which makes me wonder how Randland lost the ability of they made a white tower to store knowledge and the Seanchan had AS who each had their own power bases, cmon plot hole anyone).

 

But yet we never see them with it, while we see them with lots of working Ter'Angreal.

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You know, I don't think we've ever seen the Seanchan with any of the items (angreal, ter'angreal, etc). Didn't the AoL cover all the lands?

 

Seanchan have ter'angreal.

 

The a'dam for one, although that was made after the breaking.

 

But they have others. The Crystal Throne, the Bloodrings etc..

 

They don't interact with items of the power the same way the White Tower does, (they wouldn't give a sa'angreal to a damane.) But they do have ter'angreal, and the damane can create a'dam. But they wouldn't want much to do with angreal and sa'angreal.

Interesting, you'd think they'd want to hook some of the more powerful women up with them to kill people.

 

The Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal?

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Actually the Seanchan should have more, since they obviously kept the ability to create Ter'angreal and such (which makes me wonder how Randland lost the ability of they made a white tower to store knowledge and the Seanchan had AS who each had their own power bases, cmon plot hole anyone).

 

But yet we never see them with it, while we see them with lots of working Ter'Angreal.

 

The Seanchan didn't keep the ability to create ter'angreal, they only know how to make a'dam.

 

They didn't expand on this because aside from the a'dam, to leash the channelers, they don't want to explore any more possibilities.

 

@thisguy : If they were given a sa'angreal, they would use it, but they wouldn't go looking for them. They want as little to do with the power as possible, thus the only ter'angreal they have are ones that can be used by non-channelers, which the use has been remembered from the AoL, and the a'dam to leash channelers.

 

Yeah the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal which produces an aura of awe, I suppose is the best way to explain, around the person who sits on it. Thus the reason why the Empress is held in such reverence.

 

Edit: Put the quotes here for you guys.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 15th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Freelancer (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 27th, 2000

WH Signing Report - John Nowacki (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

He confirmed that the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal (as the Big Book of Bad Art says), but that it does not require channeling.

 

(In the book it explains the effects of the Crystal Throne)

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Actually the Seanchan should have more, since they obviously kept the ability to create Ter'angreal and such (which makes me wonder how Randland lost the ability of they made a white tower to store knowledge and the Seanchan had AS who each had their own power bases, cmon plot hole anyone).

 

But yet we never see them with it, while we see them with lots of working Ter'Angreal.

 

The Seanchan didn't keep the ability to create ter'angreal, they only know how to make a'dam.

 

They didn't expand on this because aside from the a'dam, to leash the channelers, they don't want to explore any more possibilities.

 

@thisguy : If they were given a sa'angreal, they would use it, but they wouldn't go looking for them. They want as little to do with the power as possible, thus the only ter'angreal they have are ones that can be used by non-channelers, which the use has been remembered from the AoL, and the a'dam to leash channelers.

 

Yeah the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal which produces an aura of awe, I suppose is the best way to explain, around the person who sits on it. Thus the reason why the Empress is held in such reverence.

 

Coooooooool. Thanks, man.

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The Seanchan didn't keep the ability to create ter'angreal, they only know how to make a'dam.

 

They didn't expand on this because aside from the a'dam, to leash the channelers, they don't want to explore any more possibilities.

 

@thisguy : If they were given a sa'angreal, they would use it, but they wouldn't go looking for them. They want as little to do with the power as possible, thus the only ter'angreal they have are ones that can be used by non-channelers, which the use has been remembered from the AoL, and the a'dam to leash channelers.

 

Yeah the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal which produces an aura of awe, I suppose is the best way to explain, around the person who sits on it. Thus the reason why the Empress is held in such reverence.

 

Edit: Put the quotes here for you guys.

 

They can make Bloodrings too. I know there was anothe example of a seachan Ter'Angreal, I will try to remember. I'd like to think the Crystal throne was made post breaking too.

 

But even with just bloodrings and Adam, that's two specialized things they can make, they had to learn somehow.

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I like the idea of mass producing ter'angreal via the Seanchan if they really do have the talent to do so :) Good idea!

 

So kinda back to my point: Does anyone else see this as a huge mistake by Randland channelers? It kinda drives me crazy! It'd be like going into battle without equiping up your soldiers with the best equipment.

 

And I'm not sure how you're point about organizing supplies makes sense. As a queen she wouldn't do that, she would just sign off on what someone else decides. If you were just using that as an example that she is busy then I understand, but as i meantioned above, I already acknowledged this. Most of my post was in regards to searching through the items already in possession. I realize it's dangerous to test items without the talent, but i acknowledged this as well. "Now is not the time to be cautious" not to meantion, there's a possiblity with all the new novists that there could be someone else with Avi's talent.

 

This does make me think that they should also be searching for new items, possibly via the "need" concept in TAR.

 

Well, we don't know if any of the novices have this talent, and it would be a waste of lives if they just threw the ter'angreal at the novices and hoped that eventually, one of them would puzzle out how to make it function. Maybe from a purely callous point of view, sure, novices aren't going to help much at TG. But they are human, and every life wasted (or every channeler burned out) is something unnecessary and from an ethical point of view, its just not right.

 

Also, the Need concept is rather vaguely defined. If it were so simple to just use Need to produce powerful ter'angreal/angreal/sa'angreal, then surely they would have done it already. Either that, or "Needed" up a way to win TG without losing any lives. Surely that is a need, right?

 

I like your comment about the Seanchan! But I didn't say "thow the ter'angreal at the novices". I said one might have the same talent as Avi -who did not have to channel into the ter'angreal to figure out what they do. Yes some of the ter'angreal could still be dangerous, but most won't do anything unless you channel into them. So i'm not saying just throw lives away. All they have to do is hold it. Also, I meantioned the novices as a possibility because they're finding so many new things in the novices. My overall statement was that the WT should be doing more meaning full AS could be looking the ter'angreal. Maybe i'm wrong, but I imaging store rooms of stuff that hasn't even been looked through. If this is the case, I keep thinking that there could have easily been something looked over or something that wasn't even looked at that could be of use. I just don't quite understand why with TG coming all of the AS wouldn't drop whatever they're doing for potentially useful weapons, especially the Green and Red, even the blue or the yellow (there could be something that heals). I get that the brows probably think they'll find something in the history books to save the world, the white probably want to reason out how to best save the world, the gray's want to figure out how best to join the nations or something like that and probably the blues coming up with a plan to bring everything together. But what are the greens, red, yelllows doing(and i still count some blues in here because the cause is TG at this point so fighting TG is one of the only logical next steps and a weapon would be useful)?? **ranted again :P but it's only because this seems like such an obvious thing that they should be working towards.

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Oh I see it as a huge mistake. I mean Elayne even mentions wanting an Angreal at one point to study, she gets some, and BAM pays no attention to them. Really? Cmon!

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Maybe it wasn't a mistake by the AoL AS...

 

Perhaps they knew about the forthcoming decline in the Tower and sent all those items off with the Aiel so that they were accessible to Elayne and Aviendah. There were so many items in that list from Ebou Dar that could be useful. The story telling Buddha tells fact and fiction. Facts would be invaluable if Elayne/Avi actually use it.

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if the Seanchan had angreal, could they even use them with the adam on? They can't link when wearing the leashes so maybe they can't reach into an angreal

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if the Seanchan had angreal, could they even use them with the adam on? They can't link when wearing the leashes so maybe they can't reach into an angreal

I'm not sure if I'm following you correctly. One person can use an angreal, no reason to be linked.

 

But, it is possible that the adam cannot be used with an angreal or another ter'angreal. Sort of like the Accepted Rings test went haywire when the dreamer ter'angreal was nearby.

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The Seanchan didn't keep the ability to create ter'angreal, they only know how to make a'dam.

 

They didn't expand on this because aside from the a'dam, to leash the channelers, they don't want to explore any more possibilities.

 

@thisguy : If they were given a sa'angreal, they would use it, but they wouldn't go looking for them. They want as little to do with the power as possible, thus the only ter'angreal they have are ones that can be used by non-channelers, which the use has been remembered from the AoL, and the a'dam to leash channelers.

 

Yeah the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal which produces an aura of awe, I suppose is the best way to explain, around the person who sits on it. Thus the reason why the Empress is held in such reverence.

 

Edit: Put the quotes here for you guys.

 

They can make Bloodrings too. I know there was anothe example of a seachan Ter'Angreal, I will try to remember. I'd like to think the Crystal throne was made post breaking too.

 

But even with just bloodrings and Adam, that's two specialized things they can make, they had to learn somehow.

 

Per RJ all they can make is the a'dam. Brandon was asked specifically about blood knives and he said there is no mistake with RJs statement. Now where that means the rings come from I have no idea.

 

Edit: just saw Barid provided quote above.

Edited by Suttree
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It's mostly on Aviendha really. She could've done so much good quickly and safely instead of wasting time in Arad Doman for weeks.she should've been sorting out the ter'angreal Moiraine brought from Rhuidean instead.

 

In Elayne's case, I don't think that for now she can copy correctly the more complicated ter'angreal, so mass producing those who produce balefire wasn't really an option most likely. And she's pregnant and busy as hell. Plus she thought some other Aes Sedai how to do, though none was nearly as good.

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if the Seanchan had angreal, could they even use them with the adam on? They can't link when wearing the leashes so maybe they can't reach into an angreal

 

Yes. And they know what angreal are--which makes it odd that none were brought with the Return and used in the attack on the Tower.

 

It's mostly on Aviendha really. She could've done so much good quickly and safely instead of wasting time in Arad Doman for weeks.she should've been sorting out the ter'angreal Moiraine brought from Rhuidean instead.

 

In Elayne's case, I don't think that for now she can copy correctly the more complicated ter'angreal, so mass producing those who produce balefire wasn't really an option most likely. And she's pregnant and busy as hell. Plus she thought some other Aes Sedai how to do, though none was nearly as good.

 

It's not really Aviendha's fault. The Wise One's made that decision, and I actually respect it.

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I have actually had similar questions about the Seanchan. This is how I see it:

 

AB, Channelers become ruling class.

If I was a "Magical Overlord" competing with other "Magical Overlords" for dominion, my #1 priority would be "Magical Artifacts to double my power".

Thus, setting many non-channelers, led by a lower-class channeler or two, to look for angreal, etc., I would thrive. This strategy would seem to lead to a plethora of recovered artifacts. And yet, to the best of our knowledge, there is no such abundance. There are a few reasons I can think of why this might be, but none of them seem to fit.

 

 

And don't even get me started on Adviendha's plotty lack of opportunity to look through WT for something useful, the lack of using "need", and so on. I've ranted plenty about that elsewhere. :)

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That might be true if it was superpower vs superpower like America vs Russia in the Cold War. It doesn't work so well in conflicts with many participants. Onces they see someone hoarding *angreal they would generally band together to take that person down before go for each other's throat again. Once you had whittled away the contestants, access to *angreal would be limited because of scorced earth strategies, people would rather destroy their weapons than let their enemy have them.

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Yeah, Elayne keeps saying I need an angreal to study then she gets one, but i think she doesn't understand them thats why she hasn't been poping them out.

She made the unique invisibility terangreal, 20 functional dream terangreal, when not every attempt succeeds, she tried to recreate the ring, few bad copies, no perfect copies tho... don't forget 1 adam... a bunch of imperfect copies of mat's terangreal... and yeah now she is busy dealing with things that are more important

 

Sephie: Avi doesn't dream

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