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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Master of the Anvil

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  1. It does appear that the Wheel is designed to be able to interact with the DO. That doesn't seem like too much of a leap. The creator knows about the DO so he makes the pattern with full knowledge that the DO will try to destory it. I am also of the opinion that the DO is not "imprisoned" but is rather outside of the pattern(as the creator is). The DO being the destoryer wants to fight his way into the pattern because that's the only way he can destory it. I do think there is a difference in saying he's outside the patter and that he's imprisoned. First off we know RJ said the creator and DO are equal. So how did he imprison the DO? Second off, if he is imprisoned then what is he imprisoned by/in? Is it the patter? Is it soemthing completely aside from the patter, but touching the patter? And what happens if he gets free? We know from the AoL that he tried to destroy the world, but what then? Then he's not imprisoned anymore and will do what? Attack the creator(this doesn't seem possible)? Would the creator have to imprison him again in say a new pattern or something like that? Idk, it seems much more logical that the DO and the creator are on a pretty level playing field both outside of the pattern. Possibly unable to contact each other, but able to interact with the pattern(we know the creator will not, but he probably can).
  2. Does the ter'angreal affect shielding? It seems like it wouldn't and I would think Rand's first move would be to try and slam a shield in. I'm not sure how much more powerful than someone you have to be to throw a shield in when they're already embrassing the source, but it seems possible. Regardless of being able to shield her, i don't think Cads ever wins. I don't think she'd be able to hit him with anything. She is the only non-forsaken, non-taim character(not sure he has a chance, we haven't seen much) that would even put up a fight though.
  3. Awesome breakdown Clouded. The paradox concept is pretty cool :) This is where you kinda get into the question of "free will". The pattern is perfect so it should make people(threads) that will fix any problem. But if those people are "free" to actually choose what they do then maybe they don't do what the patterned intended. But since the pattern is perfect it might just always spin out the right people. Again it's a paradox(sorta). Because the patter is perfect so it should be able to spin out the solution, but does this imply that the pattern just knows who will fix the problem or is it possible that the pattern doesn't know for sure (because they have free will) and therefore the pattern wouldn't exactly be perfect.
  4. I think this is debatable. I like you're point and I can definitely see what you're saying, but it falls back to what you consider perfection. If we work on the premise that the creator is perfect and created a perfect pattern then wouldn't it be designed to servive even when facing the DO? We know humans have free will, but we also know the pattern spits out people(threads) as corrections to things that have gone wrong. This must have been part of the creator's design and a mechanism to combat mistakes. By this reasoning, if the DO wins then the mechanism that the creator designed in the form of hero's and such as a way to combat evil then wouldn't that make the creator's design imperfect? Again, I think this is debatable and I can see where the opposite side of the coin is that even though the patter spits out solutions, these solution are still in the form of people and with the freedom of choice those people can still not perform the "correction" that they were designed for. I guess Rand is the best example of this and he actually proves your point pretty well. He was spit out to save the world, but had the choice of not doing it. I think you're actually right, so my first paragraph is really just the other side of the coin. I just wanted to present another possible reasoning, but you're right. As long as free will truly is "free" then it's not really gonna fall on the creator. Except for the fact that he gave free will to the people :P :P (sorry I can just keep on going when my brain start running) Summary: You're right. Failure of the world does not make the creator imperfect :) Zorlon/Alonin sorry for kinda getting off the point. More to what you're talking about Zorlon: Since the creator is perfect he is probably aware of the DO and therefore very likely designed the pattern to be able to combat the DO's actions, but the DO is not part of thte pattern. To what Alonin said, I would guess the DO and Creator can both touch the pattern, the creator just doesnt.
  5. Hmm. Interesting. So the creator is just a creator not a “Good One” for lack of a better term. I hadn’t considered that. That’s understandable I suppose. So both the creator and the DO are outside of the pattern. The DO can and does touch the patter. We don’t know if the creator can(although it makes sense that could touch it since he created it), but we know that he simply does not. From your RJ quote we know the creator doesn’t touch the world because it would be to admit imperfection in his creation and therefore imperfection in him. Of course if the DO succeeds in destroying the world then that would also make the creator imperfect because it would mean his creation is imperfect. So ultimately the struggle that the pattern is fighting defines the creator. If they succeed then he remains perfect, if they fail then he has failed. That’s interesting. Further more, we can probably say that since the creator is defined by the success of this pattern then he probably hasn’t created any other pattern or at least an other pattern that has failed because that would have defined him as imperfect and then break the concept of him not touching the pattern because of his perfection. Hats off to you if you could follow that. I’m definitely not the best writer and I tend to let my thoughts run a bit wild. Summary: Both are outside the pattern. Creator doesn’t touch the pattern. Creator only creates. No pattern(world) created has failed(possibly no other world created). Failure in this world(or any) would break the definition of the creator because it would equal imperfection in his creation and therefore imperfection in him. Well that was fun :) :) Thank you very much for the quotes Barid!!!
  6. Ok, then I would wonder, if both the Creator and the DO are outside of the pattern then why/how can the dark one actually cause things to happen and the Creator can not? We see bubbles of evil, but no bubbles of good. We see the DO able to communicate with the forsaken, but the Creator does not communicate with the hero's or AS or anyone. And I know RJ said something along the lines of "the Creator will not intervene", but is this because he can not or will not? If he can not then there seems to be a huge difference in the Creator and the DO, but yet we still describe the two as "outside of the pattern". If he will not, then that fits that they are both outside of the pattern, but seems a little sad: This leaves us with the possibility that the creator is either 100% confident in the abilities of the people(threads) in the pattern that he created and knows that he has no need to intervene because they don't need help or that the creator just doesn't care if what he created is destoryed. Obviously the later of those two choices kinda sucks and if the former is true then there seems to be little point to the struggles occuring since the Creator intentionally made the (threads)pattern to be strong enough to defeat anything the DO could do. Sorry for the long drawn out thought here, but it is something rather interesting to me. Summary: Are the DO and the creator equivalent(creator and destroyer)? If they are then why can/does the DO touch the pattern but not he creator?
  7. The creativity of this is cool, but I don’t think it fits very well. We know Elaida is stubborn, but there are really two kinds of stubborn. There’s the Suian stubborn: she’s coarse and overbearing, but ultimately when faced with a dire situation she’ll use her intelligence and skill to outwit and out play everyone else; and then there’s the Elaida stubborn: which is basically just using her power to force her will onto others. This is evident by their practices as amrylin. Suian’s type of stubborn is not going to break because it can bend. Elaida’s on the other hand will shatter when she doesn’t have power to loom over everyone else. I she’ll break, she basically already did. This is just my opinion, but I think this has been shown in other parts of the book like with the BA captured by the Shaido wise one(can’t remember the names currently and don’t have the books with me). That said, I don’t wish the adam on anyone, even Elaida, who is probably one of my most hated characters for all the reasons stated above and more. Elaida could certainly use some punishment, but not the what the Seanchan do. I’d much rather prefer her to be under the thumb of Cads or even Edge than enslaved by the Seanchan. Heck, I wouldn’t even mind if Edge or Cads used the adam(not that either would) because it’d be a good tool, the unacceptable part of the adam is how the Seanchan use it to destroy a person. The adam in the hands of Ny and Elayne when dealing with Mog was totally understandable IMO.
  8. I also really like Perrin! And I definitely agree with the comment that the story is better on re-reads. I thought the same thing. Perrin has some of the most epic scenes. Most have been mentioned I think. Some of the others, maybe a little more minor are when he fights and leads the Two Rivers against Fain and then especially when he tells the White Cloacks to suck it because even the tinkers had more honor(bigger balls) than the white cloaks. Another was when he went crazy on the shaido aiel that they captured. And then doesn’t he launch a flag or something into the air like an insane distance when he’s first meeting with the Seanchan? On another note, and this may be just because I like perrin a lot. I think a point that hasn’t been made about the Faile storyline is that this is one of the few story lines in WoT that shows true love. Yes I know, that sounds lame. But think about it. Rand has 3 girls, we know he loves them because of the gold veins, but true love? We don’t see that with Rand. We definitely don’t see true love with Mat no need for explanation there. We get it a little with Ny and Lan, when Ny breaks to save lan, but they spend most of the story apart so we don’t get a lot of this. But with Perrin RJ really showed true love, a man who was willing to do anything to save his love. I know a lot of people have trouble with this because they’re annoyed Perrin would throw everything away for Faile, but that’s what True love is. You’d give up everything. I know if someone took some of the people I truly love I’d tear anything/anyone that got in my way apart, not even a second thought, to get that person back. So yes, it does get a little boring, but it’s something we don’t see anywhere else in WoT to this extent.
  9. I like the idea of mass producing ter'angreal via the Seanchan if they really do have the talent to do so :) Good idea! So kinda back to my point: Does anyone else see this as a huge mistake by Randland channelers? It kinda drives me crazy! It'd be like going into battle without equiping up your soldiers with the best equipment. Well, we don't know if any of the novices have this talent, and it would be a waste of lives if they just threw the ter'angreal at the novices and hoped that eventually, one of them would puzzle out how to make it function. Maybe from a purely callous point of view, sure, novices aren't going to help much at TG. But they are human, and every life wasted (or every channeler burned out) is something unnecessary and from an ethical point of view, its just not right. Also, the Need concept is rather vaguely defined. If it were so simple to just use Need to produce powerful ter'angreal/angreal/sa'angreal, then surely they would have done it already. Either that, or "Needed" up a way to win TG without losing any lives. Surely that is a need, right? I like your comment about the Seanchan! But I didn't say "thow the ter'angreal at the novices". I said one might have the same talent as Avi -who did not have to channel into the ter'angreal to figure out what they do. Yes some of the ter'angreal could still be dangerous, but most won't do anything unless you channel into them. So i'm not saying just throw lives away. All they have to do is hold it. Also, I meantioned the novices as a possibility because they're finding so many new things in the novices. My overall statement was that the WT should be doing more meaning full AS could be looking the ter'angreal. Maybe i'm wrong, but I imaging store rooms of stuff that hasn't even been looked through. If this is the case, I keep thinking that there could have easily been something looked over or something that wasn't even looked at that could be of use. I just don't quite understand why with TG coming all of the AS wouldn't drop whatever they're doing for potentially useful weapons, especially the Green and Red, even the blue or the yellow (there could be something that heals). I get that the brows probably think they'll find something in the history books to save the world, the white probably want to reason out how to best save the world, the gray's want to figure out how best to join the nations or something like that and probably the blues coming up with a plan to bring everything together. But what are the greens, red, yelllows doing(and i still count some blues in here because the cause is TG at this point so fighting TG is one of the only logical next steps and a weapon would be useful)?? **ranted again :P but it's only because this seems like such an obvious thing that they should be working towards.
  10. Yeah i was actually thinking the same thing. I'm not sure about this. It's possible that they lost knowledge ot this when they leashed all channelers, or it is concievable that the rulling family has them all locked up in a vault. IDK I acknowledged that Elayne is busy: And I'm not sure how you're point about organizing supplies makes sense. As a queen she wouldn't do that, she would just sign off on what someone else decides. If you were just using that as an example that she is busy then I understand, but as i meantioned above, I already acknowledged this. Most of my post was in regards to searching through the items already in possession. I realize it's dangerous to test items without the talent, but i acknowledged this as well. "Now is not the time to be cautious" not to meantion, there's a possiblity with all the new novists that there could be someone else with Avi's talent. This does make me think that they should also be searching for new items, possibly via the "need" concept in TAR.
  11. (I tried to make that title interesting :P) But seriously. I'm a little lot annoyed by the lack of effort by Aviendha and Elayne to expand the side of the light's access to ter'angreal and angreal(I have little hope for finding more sa'angreal). The WT has done little in this effort as well, but at least most of the AS don't have access to the particular talents and Elayne and Aviendha. Obviously Moirance recongnized the importance of these items as seen with the large amount of effort put into retreaving items from rhuidean, but she lacked the ability to actually decern what each did. Even Ny shows her forsight in acquiring ter'angreal/angreal, plus we can see how advantagous they are to Cad. Even when compared to the Dragons I still see ter'angreal and angreal as more important tools for fighting the DO. Now I know both of these characters are busy, but we can all travel now. It's not that big a deal to pop in for a day and search through some stuff. All of the uncharacterized ter'angreal in the tower and all lof the stuff moir brought back needs to be searched(i think she may have been able to check for angreal and sa'angreal, but she couldn't check what each ter'angreal did). Then there's all the stuff from the room with the bowl. We see how much of a difference Edge can make with the wand from the tower(yes i know it's a sa'angreal so something this powerful is unlikely to be unearthed, but still), even finding one of these could be a humongous swing for the light. Finding anything close could be huge as well. Why are they not putting more effor into this???? Every available effort should be put in by the WT to check the items they have. Now is not the time for caution. They should be searching everywhere especially for angreal, but even ter'angreal have incredibly power. Aviendha should be able to find a few useful things at the very least. The immediate example that comes to mind is the ter'angreal used by the BA against Ny and Elayne that blasts of fire balls. Yes, clearly not the safest thing to use, but when a wall of Trollocs is coming at you, you wouldn't even have to aim, just fire forward. Which now that I think about it sounds a lot like the power level of a Dragon. Elayne with the talent to make ter'angreal could be doing amazing things to help for the battle as well. I'm not as annoyed by Elayne because I realize she has limited time and her ability actually doesn't always work and takes longer, but she could still be improving her talent and who know what she could be capable of. Maybe even making angeal(i need to check the books on this one, not sure if she says that's possible or not). Ok, so maybe i ranted a little. My hope is that they have been doing this off screen and we'll find out about it later, but i seriously doubt it. I just can't understand how you don't use tools as powerful as this. Thoughts? Edit: Now that I think about it, I guess Elayne and Aviendha did go through the items found in the room with the Bowl. I'm not sure if there was anything left that they couldn't carry?
  12. This is a great example of another one of the things that should be shared(communicated) but isn’t. Rand should have sent emissaries or gone himself to tell every nation/ruling body about the cleansing. Because right now, many of them probably don’t know that the taint is cleansed so they’ll just go about their business and even if they have heard that it’s cleansed, they probably don’t believe it. If this were spread correctly by Rand, he could be gathering more male channelers and hopefully find some that aren’t going to just become dark friends under taim. Alas, as with many other things, there is a failure to communicate.
  13. I think a few people are missing the point. The point is that most people cannot channel. The point isn't that they're not the best or they're not elite. It's that they can't channel at all no matter what they do. To put it in comparison to what everyone has been talking about: Being all stars in something is one thing, but anyone can pick up a football. Anyone can throw and play. There is no rule that says you can’t do that. There’s no rule that says you didn’t go to high school, you can’t read, you can’t write. You can do any of those things. But in WoT, you have to be born to channel. If you can’t, you can’t and there’s nothing you can do about it. Yeah maybe some people are elite at football or music, or they’re genius, but at some level everyone else can do something like that. Everyone can at least start to become what the elite are. But in channeling you just can’t. it doesn’t matter how hard you stare at that rock, it’s not going to move. And that’s the point. That’s what’s not fair. Sure, everyone can’t be the best. Everyone can’t train to be as strong as Rand. It’s just not going to happen, but they could start. They could try. But only if everyone had the ability. The way it stand, most people just can’t do it at all. To the point about still being able to do something even if you can’t channel and still having a good life even if you can’t channel, yes these things are true, but that wasn’t the point of the conversation. To the point that magic users need to be rare for everything to work, I understand that in this story yes. Things would have to be changed drastically in WoT if everyone could channel. I’m not saying that. I’m just focusing on the point of it being unfair. Not the logistics. To the point about being tone-deaf: You may be tone-deaf and awful at singing, but you can still sing. You can still try and you can take classes to be better. I don’t think the point was that everyone would be amazing at channeling, but simply that they could try and train.
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