Side of Light vs Side of the DO

[thisguy]

Yeah, pretty much.

 

I think it is a good thing, rather than just good v evil.

 

I think it is a very interesting subject, which leads to "what does it mean to fight the DO".

 

Does it mean killing Shadowspawn? Being a good person? "Belief and order?"

 

The Tinkers are interesting in this regard, I think that they will show a different side to opposing the Shadow.

 

EXACTLY!!!! I mentioned somewhere else that it's interesting that the AS take 3 oaths but none of them is to serve the light. NOT ONE.

 

Hmm I never thought about that. They have what, no lies, no OP except in danger or shadowspawn, no making of weapons. Maybe it would be useful to have a "never remove these oaths" and "serve only the Light" oath. Those would make BA recruitment a little trickier.

 

@Barid Bel Medar: What do you think the Tinkers will do? I completely forgot about them, I just sorta filed them out of my mind after Aram turned all violent.

 

Exactly. They kinda left their membes a WHOLE lot of lattitude, didn't they?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well again, it is because there is no such thing as "the Light".

 

To serve against the Shadow basically the equivalent of swearing to the "Light side".

 

The Light is an ambiguous term, there are no set doctrines about what is "good".

 

Re: Tinkers: I expect that will have a role in combating the DO, just like the Aiel did in the AoL. I don't think they will help "fight" the DO, but more "resist" the DO through preservation, stopping the DO's influence rather than Shadowspawn.

[thisguy]

Well again, it is because there is no such thing as "the Light".

 

To serve against the Shadow basically the equivalent of swearing to the "Light side".

 

The Light is an ambiguous term, there are no set doctrines about what is "good".

 

Re: Tinkers: I expect that will have a role in combating the DO, just like the Aiel did in the AoL. I don't think they will help "fight" the DO, but more "resist" the DO through preservation, stopping the DO's influence rather than Shadowspawn.

I'm not sure if there is or isn't anything called the Light. RJ takes myth and religion and uses them his own way. Kabbalah has Ohr which is the Light. Either way, even if it's just a term for being on the Creator's side, it would work. It's understood as standing for good. At the very least, they could swear an oath not to serve the DO, which they do not.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nobody serves the creator. The Creator is not worshipped, nor seen as a divine "god" of good. They know that the Creator created the world, and they think that is cool and all, but that the creator doesn't interact with the world, nor demand loyalty.

 

You have a point about not serving the Shadow though. It would be a good oath, restricting Aes Sedai from serving the DO.

 

Edit: Once again, with the exception of the Whitecloaks, but they are messed up.

[Clouded]

It's kind of hard to make an oath about serving the light or not serving the shadow. The oaths are explicit and easy to understand. They have obvious boundaries. As BBM said, serving the light is hard to define, because there no "light". An oath against serving the shadow would prevent any obvious betrayals, but where do we draw the line? What happens if an Aes Sedai is an unwitting pawn of the shadow?

[Agitel]

Murders, rapists, pedophiles, are all part of the weaving of the Wheel. It's pointed out numerous times in the series (often with regards to the ta'veren effect) that the Wheel strives for balance, for the good, and the bad. The Shadow is outside of this. It's not just further down the spectrum, it's off it entirely. You can be a bad, cruel, and even evil person and not be opposed to the Wheel or the Pattern. The Wheel and the Pattern isn't Heaven, it isn't "good", it just is, and the Shadow is opposed to it. If the Dark One couldn't touch the world, and murderers and rapists and pedophiles still preyed on their victims, that would be the Creator's creation as he pretty much intended it.

 

The One Power is sometimes referred to as the Light. The Aes Sedai avoid using it for menial tasks that are below it's purpose (or at least, they claim they do, and chastise novices for doing so), and the Children hate Aes Sedai not because they hate the One Power but because they believe it to be the Light and too holy for any person to want to touch. Anybody who does touch it profanes it. At least that's their dogma.

[driedraspberry]

DO is an active player, if indirectly. Creator isn't. The point of pledging to the DO is so he can "touch" and "guide" you, if you will. Otherwise what's a pledge to a non-entity the Creator remains?

[thisguy]

It's kind of hard to make an oath about serving the light or not serving the shadow. The oaths are explicit and easy to understand. They have obvious boundaries. As BBM said, serving the light is hard to define, because there no "light". An oath against serving the shadow would prevent any obvious betrayals, but where do we draw the line? What happens if an Aes Sedai is an unwitting pawn of the shadow?

Well, one of the BA oaths is to serve the Great Lord. How about an oath for the AS: Do not serve the DO or any of his minions.

[thisguy]

Murders, rapists, pedophiles, are all part of the weaving of the Wheel. It's pointed out numerous times in the series (often with regards to the ta'veren effect) that the Wheel strives for balance, for the good, and the bad. The Shadow is outside of this. It's not just further down the spectrum, it's off it entirely. You can be a bad, cruel, and even evil person and not be opposed to the Wheel or the Pattern. The Wheel and the Pattern isn't Heaven, it isn't "good", it just is, and the Shadow is opposed to it. If the Dark One couldn't touch the world, and murderers and rapists and pedophiles still preyed on their victims, that would be the Creator's creation as he pretty much intended it.

 

The One Power is sometimes referred to as the Light. The Aes Sedai avoid using it for menial tasks that are below it's purpose (or at least, they claim they do, and chastise novices for doing so), and the Children hate Aes Sedai not because they hate the One Power but because they believe it to be the Light and too holy for any person to want to touch. Anybody who does touch it profanes it. At least that's their dogma.

I agree with the top, that's sort of my original point. I didn't realize the OP was the light. This actually corresponds fairly closely with Kabbalah and Ohr (Light). It is truly amazing to me how in depth RJ's knowledge was about myth, religion and mysticism. I love that crap.

[Shig]

Something to maybe consider. Although their are varying levels of evil, which i agree with, the Dark one is the ultimate embodiment of evil. He is the polar opposite of creation(and therefore the creator), so if we examine the idea of creation and what the creator has done, which is basically just make the pattern...then bail, then creation itself is at war against the shadow. Something that i always really felt that emphasized this point was when egwene was attempting to get the hall to make a formal declaration of war against the shadow. I believe she makes some sort of statement about how just by being, they are at war against the shadow.

 

Also, im pretty sure that many people pray for others, asking for forgiveness in the light and such. Also, accepted spend the night before performing the 3 oaths praying and contemplating. As i see it...you cant just pray, you have to pray to something or someone.

[Durinax]

one of the main reasons I like this series is that it isn't clear cut light vs dark. There are many shades in all walks of life that resist both, support one or the other, and generally make Rands life hellish haha

[Mr Ares]

Yeah, pretty much.

 

I think it is a good thing, rather than just good v evil.

 

I think it is a very interesting subject, which leads to "what does it mean to fight the DO".

 

Does it mean killing Shadowspawn? Being a good person? "Belief and order?"

 

The Tinkers are interesting in this regard, I think that they will show a different side to opposing the Shadow.

 

EXACTLY!!!! I mentioned somewhere else that it's interesting that the AS take 3 oaths but none of them is to serve the light. NOT ONE.

 

Hmm I never thought about that. They have what, no lies, no OP except in danger or shadowspawn, no making of weapons. Maybe it would be useful to have a "never remove these oaths" and "serve only the Light" oath. Those would make BA recruitment a little trickier.

A serve only the Light Oath would be pointless - it allows even more opportunity for loophole abuse than "speak no word that is not true". If an AS could define joining the Shadow as serving the Light, for example... More importantly, it doesn't deal with the problem of why it is necessary to have Oaths to begin with. The general public doesn't need to be forced to swear Oaths, why do the AS? Swearing extra Oaths is the reverse of what they should be doing - getting rid of the Oaths and getting people to trust them the old fashioned way. Most people are truthful most of the time without magic. No such restraint is needed for AS.

[TristanWebb]

I don't get the argument that people have against an oath not to serve the Shadow. The most common problem people seem to have about it is that it takes away something, like would you really want to be on the same side as someone who is forced to not be a DF?

 

I mean, Lan had an oath sworn for him to fight the Shadow, but no one seems to think he would be a DF without that oath constraining him.

[Glyphwright]

The Aes Sedai needed to replace the useless oath agaisnt power-wrought weapons with an oath never to use the oath rod (or any other device) to remove the current oaths given for as long as they live. Darkfriend channelers that can neither lie nor attack with the One Power would last about this long in the Tower.

[nolirion]

Murders, rapists, pedophiles, are all part of the weaving of the Wheel. It's pointed out numerous times in the series (often with regards to the ta'veren effect) that the Wheel strives for balance, for the good, and the bad. The Shadow is outside of this. It's not just further down the spectrum, it's off it entirely. You can be a bad, cruel, and even evil person and not be opposed to the Wheel or the Pattern. The Wheel and the Pattern isn't Heaven, it isn't "good", it just is, and the Shadow is opposed to it. If the Dark One couldn't touch the world, and murderers and rapists and pedophiles still preyed on their victims, that would be the Creator's creation as he pretty much intended it.

 

The One Power is sometimes referred to as the Light. The Aes Sedai avoid using it for menial tasks that are below it's purpose (or at least, they claim they do, and chastise novices for doing so), and the Children hate Aes Sedai not because they hate the One Power but because they believe it to be the Light and too holy for any person to want to touch. Anybody who does touch it profanes it. At least that's their dogma.

The One Power is not the "light" the One Power is the force that move the Wheel of time , the closest thing there is to the light is the thing protecting Dragon Reborn mind and maybe the voice at the end of The eye of the World .

I don't get the argument that people have against an oath not to serve the Shadow. The most common problem people seem to have about it is that it takes away something, like would you really want to be on the same side as someone who is forced to not be a DF?

 

I mean, Lan had an oath sworn for him to fight the Shadow, but no one seems to think he would be a DF without that oath constraining him.

Every borderlander took this oath , the aiel have their creed "Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."

.To be a darkfriend is a direct and absolute act of submission to the Do and to evil , but on a minor scale those who do evil , murderer ,rapist,bandit , tyrant while not exactly tied to the do are akin to darkfriend . The friend of the dark are an organisation bent on the liberation of the do and ruling over other (roll of eyes)

The Do is the embodiment of evil but without his present there would still be evil , people would still be mean to each other or downright cruel , the AoL was never the Utopian society it was portrayed to be . There was no war and criminality was answered with an optimal justice ( the oat road is an excellent tool in that regard) and in that society the way of the leaf flourished but people still could go crazy .

In Wot there is not heaven or hell , beside Shayo Gull , but it is not heaven or hell that gave us the incentive to do either bad or good , in Wot their is no true organised of religion, evil or light do not come from the Do or the Creator , they come from education and the human nature .

Taking an oath is making a choice who bind you for the rest of your life one way or another but the very breath of any human is an oath against the dark one , while darkfriend relinquished their birthright , the fight against the shadow , simple bandit/tyrant/murderer fight against the shadow by just living , well for much of them they do the part of the Do for him .

But their is no serving the light , you can choose to serve the shadow but their is no serving the Creator he would not wan't you to serve him for that matter . The fight between evil and goodness that is incarnated in Tarmon Gai'don is in each and everybody that live .

When you speak about the weaving you make it as it is a conscious act , it is not , while the Wheel weave precise people to guide the pattern in a certain direction , people have free will , the Pattern , existence is build around two thing our choice , and the interaction of their consequence ; and a set of "rules" who determine reality , like the laws of physics .

But existence is a prison for the Do and so he waged war against it , and the people of Wot fight back .

The way I picture it , the Creator was bored with the nothingness and the Do , so he create existence and keep on creating worlds to make moving , but the only way to make is creation worth something worthy of a deity of that magnitude is freewill , so when people emerge they are free to do whatever they wan't with themselves . Knowing the Do he decide to protect is creation by putting the do inside is own private dimension , and hop he goes on his way .

[Suttree]

I've always found this answer pretty interesting...

 

Interview: Oct 19th, 1994

 

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

nick stuchbery

 

Is Rand's world an atheistic world, based on only human "powers"?—there seems to be a "devil" but nothing on the flip side.

Robert Jordan

 

What would you say the Creator is? The Light?

[thisguy]

Thanks for that, sutt.

 

I don't think the world is atheistic. It seems like the Creator set up the pattern and souls, etc, and left them to their own devices. I would argue that this was done so that there was, at least, some free will for people. The DO, I would argue, was trapped in a place for humans to find and release him to give humans something to struggle against, to keep them strong and to stop them from taking things for granted (think of Ingtar's talk with Rand while following the Horn). What I like and find interesting about his world is that the "bad guys" don't necessarily need to be DF. You can be the worst kind of person and not swear to the DO.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The Powers: The DO is meant to be the opposite of the Creator. Therefore it is wrong to say the DO is evil. The DO represents destruction/chaos as the Creator does creation/order. Good and evil are human terms that we use to measure the acts of ourselves and others. By human terms of morality the DO may be seen as evil, but the two entities are outside the understanding of humans. To me the DO is no more evil than a Creator who will not take part to save creation.

 

The "Prison": I do not believe the DO is imprisoned, at least not in the way mortals seem to believe. They spout their catechism about the DO being imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation. This is absurd. If the two powers are equal then the DO could not be imprisoned. I believe creation is protected from the DO by some barrier and It is trying to worm It's way into the world in order to destroy creation, because that is It's nature.

[Luckers]

The Powers: The DO is meant to be the opposite of the Creator. Therefore it is wrong to say the DO is evil. The DO represents destruction/chaos as the Creator does creation/order. Good and evil are human terms that we use to measure the acts of ourselves and others. By human terms of morality the DO may be seen as evil, but the two entities are outside the understanding of humans. To me the DO is no more evil than a Creator who will not take part to save creation.

 

The "Prison": I do not believe the DO is imprisoned, at least not in the way mortals seem to believe. They spout their catechism about the DO being imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation. This is absurd. If the two powers are equal then the DO could not be imprisoned. I believe creation is protected from the DO by some barrier and It is trying to worm It's way into the world in order to destroy creation, because that is It's nature.

 

I agree. The way the Dark One's 'prison' is described, it sounds more like he has simply been locked out of the Wheel.

[fuzz1717]

The Powers: The DO is meant to be the opposite of the Creator. Therefore it is wrong to say the DO is evil. The DO represents destruction/chaos as the Creator does creation/order. Good and evil are human terms that we use to measure the acts of ourselves and others. By human terms of morality the DO may be seen as evil, but the two entities are outside the understanding of humans. To me the DO is no more evil than a Creator who will not take part to save creation.

 

The "Prison": I do not believe the DO is imprisoned, at least not in the way mortals seem to believe. They spout their catechism about the DO being imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation. This is absurd. If the two powers are equal then the DO could not be imprisoned. I believe creation is protected from the DO by some barrier and It is trying to worm It's way into the world in order to destroy creation, because that is It's nature.

I agree with the imprisoned part of that, but its interesting to consider if the two forces are truly equal. The DO seems to be able to communicate with his followers at Shayol Ghul, while the Creator kinda just sits back and lets his creations, mainly Rand, save themselves. Or, maybe, at the end of TEotW, we have a mysterious voice talk to Rand (he says, in all caps, "IT IS NOT HERE", "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL" and "NOT HERE"). Is there any evidence that this isn't the creator? Cuz thats who it seems to be.

[Morsker]

I agree with the imprisoned part of that, but its interesting to consider if the two forces are truly equal. The DO seems to be able to communicate with his followers at Shayol Ghul, while the Creator kinda just sits back and lets his creations, mainly Rand, save themselves. Or, maybe, at the end of TEotW, we have a mysterious voice talk to Rand (he says, in all caps, "IT IS NOT HERE", "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL" and "NOT HERE"). Is there any evidence that this isn't the creator? Cuz thats who it seems to be.

I don't think of the Creator as sitting back and abandoning his creations, but of creating them well enough in the first place that they don't need divine bail-outs. It seems much kinder than creating people only to torment and insult them, and force them to beg for salvation in religious rituals.

 

Also i think it's only balanced that the Creator doesn't interfere, because he gets to interfere with "nothingness" by creating things in the first place, which the Dark One can't do.

[Agitel]

Murders, rapists, pedophiles, are all part of the weaving of the Wheel. It's pointed out numerous times in the series (often with regards to the ta'veren effect) that the Wheel strives for balance, for the good, and the bad. The Shadow is outside of this. It's not just further down the spectrum, it's off it entirely. You can be a bad, cruel, and even evil person and not be opposed to the Wheel or the Pattern. The Wheel and the Pattern isn't Heaven, it isn't "good", it just is, and the Shadow is opposed to it. If the Dark One couldn't touch the world, and murderers and rapists and pedophiles still preyed on their victims, that would be the Creator's creation as he pretty much intended it.

 

The One Power is sometimes referred to as the Light. The Aes Sedai avoid using it for menial tasks that are below it's purpose (or at least, they claim they do, and chastise novices for doing so), and the Children hate Aes Sedai not because they hate the One Power but because they believe it to be the Light and too holy for any person to want to touch. Anybody who does touch it profanes it. At least that's their dogma.

The One Power is not the "light" the One Power is the force that move the Wheel of time , the closest thing there is to the light is the thing protecting Dragon Reborn mind and maybe the voice at the end of The eye of the World.

 

Slight correct to my original statement. The True Source seems to be considered the Light in the "religion" of the world. The One Power stems from the True Source, but is not the TS itself. Otherwise I stand by what I said.

[nolirion]

Well I understand what you say , and there is room for the argument in the perception common people In the WoT have of the True Source , but the True Source is something the Creator made . So as I see it it cannot be the "light " ,as in the essence of all good and order that is the Creator as opposed to what the Dark one is , the essence of chaos and evil . If you think about it when Rand had is epiphany he held and enormous amount of the one power and was still been attacked by the shadow corruption , the one power is a neutral kind of power .

The one power comes from the True Source , the driving force of creation , the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of time

 

The True Source is the "live-force" of the Universe

 

 

The Powers: The DO is meant to be the opposite of the Creator. Therefore it is wrong to say the DO is evil. The DO represents destruction/chaos as the Creator does creation/order. Good and evil are human terms that we use to measure the acts of ourselves and others. By human terms of morality the DO may be seen as evil, but the two entities are outside the understanding of humans. To me the DO is no more evil than a Creator who will not take part to save creation.

 

The "Prison": I do not believe the DO is imprisoned, at least not in the way mortals seem to believe. They spout their catechism about the DO being imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation. This is absurd. If the two powers are equal then the DO could not be imprisoned. I believe creation is protected from the DO by some barrier and It is trying to worm It's way into the world in order to destroy creation, because that is It's nature.

 

I agree. The way the Dark One's 'prison' is described, it sounds more like he has simply been locked out of the Wheel.

Always thought the term "prison" came to be used from the Lew Therin Strike at the end of the war of the power more then actual theology . Earlier I said the creator made a special dimension for the Do .

When the Creator did creation he created balance , perhaps it as much a choice as an impracticability for him to not engage in the salvation of his creation . Rand is perhaps the only one capable of reaching out to the entity known as the creator and vice-versa .

What I am trying to say is that creation as an entity is as powerful or perhaps more powerful then either the creator or the Do .

[XoMeltdownoX]

Well I understand what you say , and there is room for the argument in the perception common people In the WoT have of the True Source , but the True Source is something the Creator made . So as I see it it cannot be the "light " ,as in the essence of all good and order that is the Creator as opposed to what the Dark one is , the essence of chaos and evil . If you think about it when Rand had is epiphany he held and enormous amount of the one power and was still been attacked by the shadow corruption , the one power is a neutral kind of power .

The one power comes from the True Source , the driving force of creation , the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of time

 

The True Source is the "live-force" of the Universe

 

 

The Powers: The DO is meant to be the opposite of the Creator. Therefore it is wrong to say the DO is evil. The DO represents destruction/chaos as the Creator does creation/order. Good and evil are human terms that we use to measure the acts of ourselves and others. By human terms of morality the DO may be seen as evil, but the two entities are outside the understanding of humans. To me the DO is no more evil than a Creator who will not take part to save creation.

 

The "Prison": I do not believe the DO is imprisoned, at least not in the way mortals seem to believe. They spout their catechism about the DO being imprisoned by the Creator at the moment of creation. This is absurd. If the two powers are equal then the DO could not be imprisoned. I believe creation is protected from the DO by some barrier and It is trying to worm It's way into the world in order to destroy creation, because that is It's nature.

 

I agree. The way the Dark One's 'prison' is described, it sounds more like he has simply been locked out of the Wheel.

Always thought the term "prison" came to be used from the Lew Therin Strike at the end of the war of the power more then actual theology . Earlier I said the creator made a special dimension for the Do .

When the Creator did creation he created balance , perhaps it as much a choice as an impracticability for him to not engage in the salvation of his creation . Rand is perhaps the only one capable of reaching out to the entity known as the creator and vice-versa .

What I am trying to say is that creation as an entity is as powerful or perhaps more powerful then either the creator or the Do .

Why would the Creator make a special dimension for DO, they are meant to be equals. I prefer to think that the Creator and DO exist in a different dimension. Creation exists in a physical dimension(s) we would call the universe. The entities are outside of our space/time.

[thisguy]

I don't know that the DO and the Creator are equals. Does anyone know if RJ ever commented on this?