How long is long enough to live

[Jonas]

I want to answer this from a Forsaken's perspective, instead of my own life.

 

Understanding that the Forsaken were all men and women of great power that ultimately fell short of LTT, it can perhaps be understood that in their envy, they turned to the Shadow. Of course they loved power more than anything else, and when the Wheel turns you out to be one of the most powerful people on the planet, it makes sense for someone who loves power to reason that to stop the Wheel turning and remain as they are (as long as they can somehow defeat LTT). The Forsaken fear death because they fear mediocrity; Ishmael seems to be the only one that is guaranteed to be spun out to face LTT over and over again. The Forsaken fear death; and paradoxically make a deal with the Lord of the Grave to escape it. Fear and envy drive their choices, I think.

 

If caught in that situation, perhaps I would also choose as they did. I would like to think not, because I (and my character coincidentally) value other things than being the most powerful being on the planet. Then again, I don't wield the One Power...

[Vardar]

The only problem with the rebirth part of the arguments is no one really remembers their lives, unless you have a Veins of Gold moment and are the Dragon Reborn you mine as well not be reborn as you wont remember anything from the previous or next lives. Being Reborn is more a metaphysical thing than something that is a benefit to you. And in that case Immortality is a pretty enticing reward... the problem in the Wheel of Time comes from having to pay for that reward, and universally the price is just to high.

 

 

as to the other topic... lamb is delicious if prepared correctly, horrible if not. So be careful and you will have an awesome meal :)

 

 

Yes but it is guarenteed. So it's not like today, where who knows if the afterlife is real, in their world, it's a given. You will be born again. And again and again. Even if you can't remember.

 

Nice forum name btw, love me some DL.

 

And I cook lamb all the time, I've never never put it on a sammich.

 

I want to answer this from a Forsaken's perspective, instead of my own life.

 

Understanding that the Forsaken were all men and women of great power that ultimately fell short of LTT, it can perhaps be understood that in their envy, they turned to the Shadow. Of course they loved power more than anything else, and when the Wheel turns you out to be one of the most powerful people on the planet, it makes sense for someone who loves power to reason that to stop the Wheel turning and remain as they are (as long as they can somehow defeat LTT). The Forsaken fear death because they fear mediocrity; Ishmael seems to be the only one that is guaranteed to be spun out to face LTT over and over again. The Forsaken fear death; and paradoxically make a deal with the Lord of the Grave to escape it. Fear and envy drive their choices, I think.

 

If caught in that situation, perhaps I would also choose as they did. I would like to think not, because I (and my character coincidentally) value other things than being the most powerful being on the planet. Then again, I don't wield the One Power...

 

On that note, did anyone ever confirm that Ishhy really is spun out again and again and isn't just some nut job? I mean I know he says it, but he was crazy right.

[Suttree]

On that note, did anyone ever confirm that Ishhy really is spun out again and again and isn't just some nut job? I mean I know he says it, but he was crazy right.

 

Yes it has been confirmed that Ishy's and Rand's souls are frequently linked a la Birgitte and Gaidal. They have indeed fought this battle countless times before.

[Vardar]

On that note, did anyone ever confirm that Ishhy really is spun out again and again and isn't just some nut job? I mean I know he says it, but he was crazy right.

 

Yes it has been confirmed that Ishy's and Rand's souls are frequently linked a la Birgitte and Gaidal. They have indeed fought this battle countless times before.

 

I'm assuming that was a quote of some sort?

 

The series really looks different with all these quotes tossed in, like it's an entirely different story.

[Kamin_Majere]

Yeah Ishy has about the only real "good" claim for supporting the Dark One that i can see. I mean the very universe itself spins you out just to be the whipping boy of the Dragon OVER and OVER and OVER... i'd want the dark one to destroy it all to at that point.

 

The rest of the Chosen are just petty, I mean most all stories involving people going over to the dark side tend to have it be for petty reasons, but the forsaken's just seem lame.

"waaa we live in a utopian society and i cant be as good at everything as Lews"

"waaa i wanted to be a fancy musician but i'm not the best so instead i'm going to help destroy the world"

"waaa Lews chose another woman over me like 90 years ago"

 

They are all very sad people, and i wonder how merit was given during the Age of Legends... because surely these character flaws would have been readily apparent LONG before the bore was drilled.

 

 

 

As to the Rebirth:

True it is guarenteed, but the you spun out next time isn't going to be the you now (or the you from the past) so wanting to hold on to the here and now makes sense. Coming back with no memories of yourself and no way to get them back means that every death and rebirth is still a death, completely erasing you. So immortality is a pretty big reward if you don't want yourself to be erased just to be replaced with the next version of you. All your collected knowledge and experiences are gone and except for maybe a historical record it would be like the "you" that wanted to keep living never existed. Cyclical time universes with recycled souls are confusing lol

 

(Thanks about the name, i've been using it forever as a net handle)

[Vardar]

Yeah Ishy has about the only real "good" claim for supporting the Dark One that i can see. I mean the very universe itself spins you out just to be the whipping boy of the Dragon OVER and OVER and OVER... i'd want the dark one to destroy it all to at that point.

 

The rest of the Chosen are just petty, I mean most all stories involving people going over to the dark side tend to have it be for petty reasons, but the forsaken's just seem lame.

"waaa we live in a utopian society and i cant be as good at everything as Lews"

"waaa i wanted to be a fancy musician but i'm not the best so instead i'm going to help destroy the world"

"waaa Lews chose another woman over me like 90 years ago"

 

They are all very sad people, and i wonder how merit was given during the Age of Legends... because surely these character flaws would have been readily apparent LONG before the bore was drilled.

 

 

 

As to the Rebirth:

True it is guarenteed, but the you spun out next time isn't going to be the you now (or the you from the past) so wanting to hold on to the here and now makes sense. Coming back with no memories of yourself and no way to get them back means that every death and rebirth is still a death, completely erasing you. So immortality is a pretty big reward if you don't want yourself to be erased just to be replaced with the next version of you. All your collected knowledge and experiences are gone and except for maybe a historical record it would be like the "you" that wanted to keep living never existed. Cyclical time universes with recycled souls are confusing lol

 

(Thanks about the name, i've been using it forever as a net handle)

 

Well in essence it is immorality, or at least that's how I'd view it.

 

Yes all of their motives are pretty bad, with the exception of Asmodean, I'd say his Hippy, For the Music Man, actually makes more sense than the rest of them. Which one was the one who was pissed because he was shorter than Lews. I mean really? You wish you were a little bit taller so you're going to help destroy the world? Oh come on!

 

I've been Vardar since my mudding days, hell back in 97? Vardarmus came about because of of my best friends called himself Taddemus (They started calling me Vard when we would go out drinking, confused a lot of people) but I started refering to myself as Vardarmus Prime, long drunken story. Good to meet someone else who sticks to names.

[bsmnt23]

One man's petty is another man's passion. Envy is a powerful motivator. According to the bible, it took all of four people on the planet for it become too crowded for one to stand another being chosen over him (i'm paraphrasing Jim Butcher again, but what a way to to put it). Envy combined with hopeless fear mixed well with a promise of ultimate Power over everyone and a dash of doing it forever and you have a pretty heady coctail for a lot of people to drink.

 

Also, I've got quite a healthy resume, Dark lord, if you're out there and hiring, just saying.

[Wandering Channeler]

I'd go to Shayol Ghul on the promise of a ham sammich. And immortality. Power itself is worth the price of admission; even if it is ultimatly self defeating. Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher, the Dresden Files) said it best: "Money is new. Power is old. Power is the real deal. Money, voters, oil, SUVs; they're just stand-ins for power." And power is even sexier when it is corrupting.

 

Turkey Sammich, maybe...

 

Ham, no.

 

MLT, where the mutten is nice and lean...

 

and the tomato is ripe

[bsmnt23]

I'd go to Shayol Ghul on the promise of a ham sammich. And immortality. Power itself is worth the price of admission; even if it is ultimatly self defeating. Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher, the Dresden Files) said it best: "Money is new. Power is old. Power is the real deal. Money, voters, oil, SUVs; they're just stand-ins for power." And power is even sexier when it is corrupting.

 

Turkey Sammich, maybe...

 

Ham, no.

 

MLT, where the mutten is nice and lean...

 

and the tomato is nice and ripe

 

HAH! And someone finally got it. Thanks you, Wandering Channler, for restoring my faith.

[Kamin_Majere]

True, it's immortality in one sense of the word. I view things more physically so i tend to view my body living forever as immortality instead of my soul (though i know the books makes my views wrong in this situation)

 

And unlike most universes the channelers have so much less going for them when making the dark switch... i mean 700 years is a pretty good life span. The "normal" friends of the dark i understand, i mean immortality looks pretty good when you only have 60-80 years, but its less of a reward when you are already going to live 10 times a normal person.

 

I completely forgot about the not tall enough (i think that was Ravin) I would have so used that one :)

 

Asmodean had a "better" reason but not a very good one, it still comes back to the "So what do i have to do for this immortality and puppies deal" ... "Destroy everyone that would ever enjoy your music therefore making your being a great musician a moot point"

Their deal with the dark one has NO chance of working out for the best for them, even if everything went right they would still be left ruling a slag of a world populated by trollocs and a few Dark Friends that the trollocs hadn't eaten yet.

 

But yeah still a better reason than I'm not tall enough :p

 

 

(yeah I think i started this handle back when AOL was big in like 95-96)

 

 

True, envy is a terrible motivation, and is one of the worst of the 7 vices. Still you would think the envious person would want to get something of value out of the deal. Immortality and rule of a world that is a slag heap just doesnt seem that big of a reward for giving up utopia. But thats why no matter what the history of WoT or the Forsaken themselves say, i put them pretty much all in the stupid catagory. They might have been brilliant at something in the Age of Legends... but they have some pretty limited applications of that brilliance I think.

 

Plus i'm thinking someone would have seen these character flaws before this point, anyone willing to let the world burn for some of the reasons they did surely would have registered as a complete and total nutter in the land of everyone is happy and working toward the betterment of all mankind (i.e. the age of legends)

[Suttree]

On that note, did anyone ever confirm that Ishhy really is spun out again and again and isn't just some nut job? I mean I know he says it, but he was crazy right.

 

Yes it has been confirmed that Ishy's and Rand's souls are frequently linked a la Birgitte and Gaidal. They have indeed fought this battle countless times before.

 

I'm assuming that was a quote of some sort?

 

The series really looks different with all these quotes tossed in, like it's an entirely different story.

 

Yeah here is one...

 

 

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting

 

I didn't hear the question but someone asked something about Rand's and Moridin's souls being intertwined. Sanderson said that many souls' threads are frequently woven together in the Pattern such as Birgitte and Gaidal. He said that Rand and Moridin are also frequently woven together in the Pattern.

 

 

In addition going back to RJ we have.

 

 

 

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

The answer is in regards to an incident in text in which Ishy is referring specifically to Rand, not some generic hero of the light. It is the speech where he recounts them fighting time after time.

[Thanatos]

The fool Forsaken that was envious of LTT for being shorter was Sammael. And yes, it is an extremely foolish reason for forsaking the light.

 

On to the whole immortality thing...

 

I tend to agree with what you all tend to be saying. I can understand why they turned, they saw that the light was a losing cause. This new power that Mierin and Beidomon unlocked was exactly what they were looking for. A power that could be used by both Men and Women. Just because it turned out to be the DO, doesn't mean it isn't a tempting thing to have. Throw in immortality on top, and it is almost a no-brainer for them to turn. They were almost guaranteed victory after they all turned. If Lews didn't strike when he did and seal them all up, chances are, the light was toast.

 

Damn you Lews...

[Alric]

Immortality is cool to ponder, but if achieved. It would grow old really fast.

Teehee.

 

 

Oh yeah, I would go for immortality. If your life is endless so are the possibilities. If you get bored...do something new. It isn't a waste of time because you have ALL the time. Music, art, sports, mathematics, literature, philosophy, and everything else. You could master all of it and that would be some real fun

Yep, that's the real attraction to me. Experience everything. Learn everything. Discover everything. I have a real thirst for experience, knowlegde, and most of all understanding. I want to understand how different cultures work, how different people think, why they do what they do, etc. I don't think I would grow tired of that for a very long time.

 

 

Even after 200 years, you would start missing a lot of people. And eventually we'd get to the point of, even if your body was perfect, is there a limit to how much information the human mind can contain? Would you start forgeting family around year 300, and look at pictures with labels on them and say, damn I wish I remembered my mother.

I suffer from this already. 15-20 years ago gets really fuzzy. Not the big things, but many of the small things. There are definitely limits to the human mind. You'd meet people again and again through the centuries and you would have a really hard time remembering them, or at least remembering where you met them last. Your mind would probably be quite swamped. I'm just guessing though. Maybe once you have matured you'd just settle into a way of managing things. Who knows. Healthy 90 year olds don't seem much more troubled than 50 year old so I might be wrong there. But I'm quite sure that you'd have to develop some strategies to hold on to the most important information.

[randomh3r0]

Interesting question indeed. I like to think I could handle a half millenium+, but I also think there's weight in the dialogue from "Troy":

 

Brad Pitt: The gods envy us. The world is more beautiful because we're doomed. Nothing is forever. We'll never be here again.

 

(Paraphrasing, but did the best I could)

[Alric]

Long lives would make romantic relationships easier in my opinion.

 

Age differences would matter less since it wouldn't be expected that you'd stay with one person for all eternity. Just look at the divorce statistics, people tend to change partners during their "prime" years. More of those means less expectations for a relationship which could take some burdens off people's shoulders. That could actually also help relationships. You'd be expected to move on if it didn't work out and you'd still have time to find that great love. There would probably still be lots of really long term relationship, but probably under more relaxed and less stressing circumstances.

 

If I expected to live for a really long time, and everyone else did too, it would be much easier to find a good match. That great girl you met is 50 years older? No problem. 30 years younger? No problem. As long as person was old enough to have some life experience that can be compared to yours, maturity would not be something to worry about. Age makes things very complicated in the world we live in now.

[Nightstrike]

The Forsaken were stupid to go over to the Shadow in the first place. The DO is gonna destroy the Wheel, and they should have realized it, but then there's the rebirth thing too. They were both stupid and evil.

 

How long would I like to live? Much longer than in the real world, I think ... Maybe it depends on other things? I don't know, really.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I don't think any of us can really imagine what it means to be immortal. It's just completely out of our experience. Unless something back like a disease or some accident happens we have our 80+ or so years and we live based on that knowledge. If we were suddenly immortal who knows what kind of an impact that would have on our lives.

[Maleshub]

Immortality and fertility = constant war and slaughter.

 

The world would be crowded too soon and the resources stretched out. Imagine how much water and food it would take to feed a world where people continue to live for a couple of thousand years. There would be competition for the resources, then fights, then wars, then slaughter of the defeated by victors to survive. And that doesn't take into account competition for things that are more rare than food and water.

 

In our poor Earth, immortality would be disaster.

[muddasssir]

Again we are assuming that characters are privy to all the information that we know

[Barid Bel Medar]

Again we are assuming that characters are privy to all the information that we know

 

Indeed, as I mentioned in another post, the DO wanting to destroy the pattern is not knowledge anyone but Ishamael even suspects. In fact, we as the reader don't actually know this is the DO's goal. It is only through Ishamael that we get this theory, and that does not make it true. Now, I am not saying I disagree. I DO this Ishamael is correct and that is the DO's true plan, however, we can't even be sure as a reader that this is truth.

 

To assume the Forsaken should know that is unreasonable. The DO has given them no reason to doubt his claims. They know he is a harsh master, true, and perhaps even evil (which doesn't bother them in any case) they know that he promotes backstabbing. However, that would not be suspicion enough to figure his true intentions. There is perfect reason for the DO's actions regarding this, as we saw through a Forsaken PoV (can't remember exactly who or where) that they believe the DO does this to weed out the weak and see who is the strongest. A perfectly reasonable explanation. Furthermore, he has not actively betrayed any of them (not before the dubious Semirhage affair) The DO rewards success adequately and he has proven that he can indeed give them immortality. He can bring them back from the Grave, a fitting enough example of his power. Plus RJ has said that the DO does have the means to make them immortal.

 

So while betraying the Light would probably not be worth it for your average person like us, these types of people, who care little for people or sentimentality would have no problem with sacrificing the things suggested in this thread.

 

Callous and dangerous, yes, potentially disastrous, yes. Stupid? No.

 

In any case, few went over for the soul reason of immortality.

 

Ishamael (apparently) knows the DO's true motives. Although he too was drawn to immortality, he went over to the Shadow because he felt it was useless. to resist, and wants to break the cycle.

 

Lanfear - Definitely for power and immortality, no excuse here.

 

Demandred- He hated Lews Therin, who overshadowed his whole life. He thinks that with the aid of the DO's power, he can defeat LTT. Also he realized that the fight was hopeless, and decided it was better to fight for the winning side instead of being destroyed.

 

Aginor- Nobody else would let him do what he wanted to do scientifically.

 

Balthamael - I can't remember. I think immortality, and because it was an exciting prospect. He liked that kinda stuff.

 

Be'lal - Envious of LTT, Ishamael and Lanfear. Jealous guy.

 

Sammael - Because he hated LTT, and he wanted power and immortality.

 

Graendal - Just got fed up with people not meeting her standards, so she decided to live in luxury etc.. Also craves power and immortality.

 

Asmodean - Immortality to perfect his music and such.

 

Semirhage - Like Aginor, nobody would let her do what she wanted, so she turned to someone who would.

 

Mesaana - Again, they didn't let her do what she wanted, but Mesaana decided to make them pay.

 

Moghedien - Immortality and power. Also likely thought it the safest choice.

 

Rhavin - Power/immortality.

 

SO only really Rhavin,Moghedien, Lanfear, Balthamael and Asmodean went over purely for immortality. The others have "legitimate" reasons for doing what they did. (Although certainly none of them would turn down immortality when it was offered)

 

Edit: Besides which, we do see several of the Forsaken weary of the DO, it isn't like they are totally oblivious to the threat. We have seen Graendal, Semirhage and Demandred weary of the DO. Graendal thinks she will be able to outsmart the DO, thinking to herself she won't risk her life, not even for the DO. We see Semirhage muse that she was just a pawn, and the DO could very well betray her if he chose (which is what may have happened) and Demandred muses about the DO's lack of knowledge and weary of the command to use Balelfire.

[Vardar]

Long lives would make romantic relationships easier in my opinion.

 

Age differences would matter less since it wouldn't be expected that you'd stay with one person for all eternity. Just look at the divorce statistics, people tend to change partners during their "prime" years. More of those means less expectations for a relationship which could take some burdens off people's shoulders. That could actually also help relationships. You'd be expected to move on if it didn't work out and you'd still have time to find that great love. There would probably still be lots of really long term relationship, but probably under more relaxed and less stressing circumstances.

 

If I expected to live for a really long time, and everyone else did too, it would be much easier to find a good match. That great girl you met is 50 years older? No problem. 30 years younger? No problem. As long as person was old enough to have some life experience that can be compared to yours, maturity would not be something to worry about. Age makes things very complicated in the world we live in now.

 

Here's another question, How many kids would you expect to have just with the normal 700 life span? And if all your kids weren't channelers, would you start forgetting them too? Even more reason to be depressed.

 

And yea, Now everytime I read about Samm I'm going to sing "I wish I was a little bit Taller, I wish I was a baller" in my head.

 

Ha, I'm going to destroy the world cause I'm short. That's some true evil right there. (Didn't some of the other forsaken remark on his height, like he'd be more attractive if he was taller, was he really that short, that's hilarious!)

[Vardar]

Indeed, as I mentioned in another post, the DO wanting to destroy the pattern is not knowledge anyone but Ishamael even suspects. In fact, we as the reader don't actually know this is the DO's goal. It is only through Ishamael that we get this theory, and that does not make it true. Now, I am not saying I disagree. I DO this Ishamael is correct and that is the DO's true plan, however, we can't even be sure as a reader that this is truth.

 

Well sure they're not exactly privy to it, but come on, you have to suspect. Some guy wants to take over the world and at the very least remodel creation in his image. Well this guy happens to be extremely destructive and loves death and violence, Hmm, even if he let a world exist, it's not going to be a pretty place. The Forsaken did have a love of pretty things, they all have POVs thinking about things they missed.

 

Semirhage - Like Aginor, nobody would let her do what she wanted, so she turned to someone who would.

 

Mesaana - Again, they didn't let her do what she wanted, but Mesaana decided to make them pay.

 

 

I'd argue that they had to want the immorality as well, otherwise why not just do what you wanted to do in the ensuing confusion caused by the battle between light and evil. Step aside and torture who you wanted and no one would notice you.

 

But fair assessment nonetheless.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ha, I'm going to destroy the world cause I'm short. That's some true evil right there. (Didn't some of the other forsaken remark on his height, like he'd be more attractive if he was taller, was he really that short, that's hilarious!)

 

 

Hahha yeah. Graendal said that she wanted Rand for her pets, that she liked tall men.

 

Sammael didn't appreciate that.

 

 

Indeed, as I mentioned in another post, the DO wanting to destroy the pattern is not knowledge anyone but Ishamael even suspects. In fact, we as the reader don't actually know this is the DO's goal. It is only through Ishamael that we get this theory, and that does not make it true. Now, I am not saying I disagree. I DO this Ishamael is correct and that is the DO's true plan, however, we can't even be sure as a reader that this is truth.

 

Well sure they're not exactly privy to it, but come on, you have to suspect. Some guy wants to take over the world and at the very least remodel creation in his image. Well this guy happens to be extremely destructive and loves death and violence, Hmm, even if he let a world exist, it's not going to be a pretty place. The Forsaken did have a love of pretty things, they all have POVs thinking about things they missed.

 

Semirhage - Like Aginor, nobody would let her do what she wanted, so she turned to someone who would.

 

Mesaana - Again, they didn't let her do what she wanted, but Mesaana decided to make them pay.

 

 

I'd argue that they had to want the immorality as well, otherwise why not just do what you wanted to do in the ensuing confusion caused by the battle between light and evil. Step aside and torture who you wanted and no one would notice you.

 

But fair assessment nonetheless.

 

1. I put that in the edit, not sure it it was up, that we do indeed see some of the Forsaken question the DO and his motives, if not exactly thinking "hey, maybe he wants to destroy the world along with us as well"

 

Not saying that they SHOULDN'T"T be suspicious either, just that they DO know the danger with dealing with the DO, they don't just trust him completely.

 

2. Indeed, I agree that obviously they have something up with them, you have to be to work with the DO, whatever reasons you have. And yeah, I would say most of them saw immortality as a plus, just trying to say that immortality wasn't necessarily the main factor for them.

[jsbrads]

I have seen old people react both ways when faced with the approaching end:

One nice old guy, cool dude, like him and wanna keep him around longer. He is in constant debilitating pain, can't sleep, walk, etc. yet he is clinging to life, don't wanna let go.

Another old person, no real pain or infirmity, says I've seen it all, I'm ready, I ain't gonna do nothing dangerous, but if I did fall asleep tonight and not wake up... fine with me

 

I'm more of the immortality=endless possibilities. so I like the idea. I would like to see the next advancements in tech, but even if i were born many years ago, before industrial age, every generation seems unique, so feudal japan in 1500 not same as feudal japan 1600 (not that i know anythin about history, but i watched highlander...)

 

To quote Silvie "they are all fools" the forsaken, DO. I would NOT work for that company if they paid me...

 

The AoL cafeteria, lunch time: "Salsbury steak?! again?! don't they know I don't like salsbury steak? I wonder what they are serving in Shayol ghul?" of course this wouldnt be a problem for me, like dr rodney mccay, i like salsbury steak...

[Treebeard]

I for one couldn't bear immortality for 2 reasons

 

1) watch all they who i cherishes pass away

2) see the decline in the world ( global warming ect)

with that said i would like to add that i do not have wish to die young either , just that the concept of immortalety is as repulsive as death.

 

I could see why the forsaken wanted it , they are immensely powerful and have possibility's beyond our reach ( spending days on end exploring the dream world , research all kinds of stuff and most important they have huge egos and are very self-centred not to mention witch lust that they harbour to the pleasures of life.