Why Didn't Moridin Destroy the Pattern?

[ASecondChance]

I've been struggling with this question for a while. Assuming the Dark One's ultimate goal is to destroy the Pattern and knowing that Moridin eagerly awaits this end (he laughs joyfully when he tells Rand that this is the Dark One's goal in Chapter 15, I believe, of TGS), why doesn't the Dark One give Moridin access to enough True Power to unravel the Pattern? If Rand can draw enough One Power through the Choedan Kal to do this and, theoretically the amount of True Power is approximately equivalent to that of the One Power and the only limit to how much one can draw is what the Dark One allows, I see no real reason why this would not have happened already. Could anyone help? Thanks

 

P.S. I am a first time poster, so feel free to criticize whatever you all will. Thanks again!

[RandA lThor]

I think this forum is not meant for these kinds of questions, you should probably post this in the general wheel of time discussion.

[Dwynwen]

Moved to General WoT.

[flash_fire]

Hear are my few cents. I am by no means a wheel of time scholar, so I might be spewing wrongness. I will also sound like I am arguing with myself. Yay dialectic.

 

I believe that the TP and OP weren't equal in power for Rand but they were both equally tempting to use for Rand-- Rand had the Choeden Kal to counteract the addictiveness of the TP.

 

But the amount of TP Rand could access wasn't the limit of the TP source, so TP could match Choeden Kal if the DO wanted it to. Right?

 

Well, I think that the side effects from wielding so much TP would be very adverse. It would probably cause insanity to hold even close to that much TP. I don't think the DO would fully trust a mad man, but I could be wrong.

 

EDIT: I think it is that the DO doesn't trust anyone enough to wield that much power. It's basically the same as asking "why doesn't the DO order everyone to use balefire?"...

[Maleshub]

Moridin knows that the full release of the DO from prison and destruction of the pattern means the end of existence of the human race; and the reshaping of an empty destroyed world in accordance with the DO's vision.

 

The Rand - Moridin discussion in TGS in TAR is one of the best meetings between the two. Just shows how hopeless the Shadow's cause is; and how helplessly caught Moridin is. He knows that if he succeeds, he will die; but if not, he'll live to fight another battle in another age. That should be motive enough for Moridin not to be too faithful to the DO. And "philosophically," that might motivate Moridin to "resist" Rand less forcefully than necessary; and even to facilitate his sealing of the Bore.

 

At least that's how I read that dialogue!

[Sasha Grayes]

I've always believed that breaking the pattern isn't entirely bad. Maybe it isn't about destroying everything, instead just destroying the cycle.

[TristanWebb]

I am of the theory that destroying the pattern wholesale is just as bad for the DO as it is for everyone else. He is trapped in a prison after all, he needs someone to help him break out, if there is no pattern there is no people so he is stuck trapped with no chance of escape.

 

Once he is free he will go on a murderous spree, but until then he has to rely someone to open the door for him.

[FarShainMael]

I am of the theory that destroying the pattern wholesale is just as bad for the DO as it is for everyone else. He is trapped in a prison after all, he needs someone to help him break out, if there is no pattern there is no people so he is stuck trapped with no chance of escape.

 

Once he is free he will go on a murderous spree, but until then he has to rely someone to open the door for him.

 

The Bore is that door, though, surely? What the DO needs to do is to get an ally who It trusts completely (or as much as It is capable of trusting!) into the Bore to do the necessary. A 'Turned' Rand would suit Its purpose admirably.. see Moridin's thoughts on winning by capturing the Fisher (TPoD Prologue).

[Mr Ares]

I've been struggling with this question for a while. Assuming the Dark One's ultimate goal is to destroy the Pattern and knowing that Moridin eagerly awaits this end (he laughs joyfully when he tells Rand that this is the Dark One's goal in Chapter 15, I believe, of TGS), why doesn't the Dark One give Moridin access to enough True Power to unravel the Pattern? If Rand can draw enough One Power through the Choedan Kal to do this and, theoretically the amount of True Power is approximately equivalent to that of the One Power and the only limit to how much one can draw is what the Dark One allows, I see no real reason why this would not have happened already. Could anyone help? Thanks

 

P.S. I am a first time poster, so feel free to criticize whatever you all will. Thanks again!

The bolded part is the problem. One is still limited in how much one can draw of the TP by how much one could draw of the OP.

[Vardar]

Did free usage of Balefire threaten the fabric of the pattern before? You'd think just wholesale balefiring stuff would be enough to unmake it again, although how the DO would force people to do it is the real question. If destruction is what he wants.

 

And that disregards the entire "wouldn't be a story thing."

[nolirion]

There is another thread by the same member .

 

Did free usage of Balefire threaten the fabric of the pattern before? You'd think just wholesale balefiring stuff would be enough to unmake it again, although how the DO would force people to do it is the real question. If destruction is what he wants.

 

And that disregards the entire "wouldn't be a story thing."

 

The destruction of the pattern is a secondary objective for the DO , the defeat or corruption of the Dragon is the main objective .

[Agitel]

There is another thread by the same member .

 

Did free usage of Balefire threaten the fabric of the pattern before? You'd think just wholesale balefiring stuff would be enough to unmake it again, although how the DO would force people to do it is the real question. If destruction is what he wants.

 

And that disregards the entire "wouldn't be a story thing."

 

The destruction of the pattern is a secondary objective for the DO , the defeat or corruption of the Dragon is the main objective .

 

Perhaps the Dragon is the only force that can be manipulated to destroy the Wheel.

[Hyronimus]

This is assuming that Moradin truely knows the mind of the darkone. Destroying the pattern fits his philosyphy (sp!) his "logic which destroys him". We only know that the darkone wishes to be free of his prison, specifically free of time, because he raved to Demandred that "even i can not step out of time" (LoC i believe), and we know he can only touch a single age of the wheel as the pattern weaves it.

[OptimusPrime]

Moridin knows that the full release of the DO from prison and destruction of the pattern means the end of existence of the human race; and the reshaping of an empty destroyed world in accordance with the DO's vision.

 

No. That is what the other Forsaken think. They think the world will be remade and that they get all the power.

 

What Moridin knows, that none of the others know, is that there wont be any reshaping. See, the world itself IS the Pattern (every blade of grass has a thread) and the Pattern is the prison. Therefor the world itself is the prison, and every single man woman and child has a part to play in it because they all have threads; their role is purely a resource from which the Wheel will draw in order to make the Pattern, time, the world itself, twist and turn to meet any condition necessary to stop the Dark One from breaking free. Recycled souls mean recycled threads, and not even balefire destroys a thread forever, hence the ammount of threads is finite yet inifintely reusable just as the One Power is

 

The Pattern is just a shield. A tied off Sheld, and the Wheel is the hard point, the bit that ties it off. If a Shielded person dies,or breaks free, does the Shield still exist, or does it dissipate into nothingness? I say the latter. And this is why Rands meetings with Moridin are so profound, I think-if Rand killed the Dark One, the shield that is the world would only exist if it had something to imprison. We could talk about Fain being a replacement prisoner if we wanted but the point of it is, that Rand declared he would kill the Dark One without knowing what the consequences would be (bye bye world) and its this kind of thing that makes me understand how Rand beating the Dark One could end up being worse than the Dark One winning. The only difference between a regular shield and the Pattern as a shield is that in the Dark Ones case, the weaves of his shield have a physical manifestation, and because he has no thread or physical manifestation of his own he cant simply break the Wheel, he has to get into the Pattern, hi-jack a thread (hello Ishamael) and break it from within. This is why Moridin is so keen on the True Power, and the fact that none of the others know the real nature of all this, thats why they dont compare to Moridin. He is the only one that understands what it means to be a True Power user, which is not onlya way to weaken the Pattern, but it is how the Dark One GETS IN to the Pattern/Prison, which is where he must be to destroy it.

[randomh3r0]

This actually raises an interesting point, and I'd have to question whether or not the DO really wants the Pattern unmade. My reasoning for this is that when Balefire is discussed, having it's potential overuse ending in the destruction of the pattern, it's noted a few times that in the War of the Shadow, both sides (light and dark) stopped it's use entirely. We know the Forsaken would've stopped to have some world left to rule, but it seems that at that point in history, the DO could've commanded it's continued use back then to destroy the pattern. It seems to me this indicates he'd rather have control over it, or (according to a passage by memory), have the pattern remade in his image. (so the DO has something to rule instead of just a patternless void)

[Wandering Channeler]

Great analogy Drekka.

 

Let me see if I am getting this straight. The Dark One and the Creator are equal and opposite "gods" (or whatever you would prefer to call them - ethereal beings) that roam the Multiverse (MtG reference). The Creator "shielded" (trapped) the Dark One with the shield being the pattern and the tied off point is the wheel. So the world we know's soul purpose is to contain the Dark One. The world/shield is destroyed if the Dark One is either himself destroyed or if he is able to destroy it. Then once he is free he once again terrorize the Multiverse. So in order for the threads/people that make up the pattern to continue to exist they must keep the Dark One contained neither destroyed nor freed.

 

In this very enlightening analogy I would like to think of Moridin as the soft point in the shield.

[Luckers]

For some reason these questions always make me want to be flip, and reply with something like 'because, dahling, it goes ever so well with his dinner set!'

 

Now that's out of my system, I think it comes down to the question of the Dark One needing to destroy the Pattern in his own way. We know that it exerts an influence against him (it keeps him imprisoned after all), so the destruction of the Pattern could theoretically have some nasty side effects for the Dark One.

 

Maybe thinking of it like a demolition instead of just a simple destruction would help. He has to carefully place the explosives to destroy the pattern in just the right way, or else he risks collateral damage. *shrug*

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Great analogy Drekka.

 

Let me see if I am getting this straight. The Dark One and the Creator are equal and opposite "gods" (or whatever you would prefer to call them - ethereal beings) that roam the Multiverse (MtG reference). The Creator "shielded" (trapped) the Dark One with the shield being the pattern and the tied off point is the wheel. So the world we know's soul purpose is to contain the Dark One. The world/shield is destroyed if the Dark One is either himself destroyed or if he is able to destroy it. Then once he is free he once again terrorize the Multiverse. So in order for the threads/people that make up the pattern to continue to exist they must keep the Dark One contained neither destroyed nor freed.

 

In this very enlightening analogy I would like to think of Moridin as the soft point in the shield.

 

I like this idea/summation. Very nice Drekka

[nolirion]

For some reason these questions always make me want to be flip, and reply with something like 'because, dahling, it goes ever so well with his dinner set!'

 

Now that's out of my system, I think it comes down to the question of the Dark One needing to destroy the Pattern in his own way. We know that it exerts an influence against him (it keeps him imprisoned after all), so the destruction of the Pattern could theoretically have some nasty side effects for the Dark One.

 

Maybe thinking of it like a demolition instead of just a simple destruction would help. He has to carefully place the explosives to destroy the pattern in just the right way, or else he risks collateral damage. *shrug*

 

Yes that make a lot of sense , perhaps he means to destroy the pattern in a way that would harm the creator ?

[jsbrads]

DO would be okay when pattern goes boom.

 

Moridin told Rand that he knows DO wants it all to go boom and Mordy is on board, because DO promised him to be king of all for "a short time" (actual time not described).

[OptimusPrime]

Great analogy Drekka.

 

Let me see if I am getting this straight. The Dark One and the Creator are equal and opposite "gods" (or whatever you would prefer to call them - ethereal beings) that roam the Multiverse (MtG reference). The Creator "shielded" (trapped) the Dark One with the shield being the pattern and the tied off point is the wheel. So the world we know's soul purpose is to contain the Dark One. The world/shield is destroyed if the Dark One is either himself destroyed or if he is able to destroy it. Then once he is free he once again terrorize the Multiverse. So in order for the threads/people that make up the pattern to continue to exist they must keep the Dark One contained neither destroyed nor freed.

 

In this very enlightening analogy I would like to think of Moridin as the soft point in the shield.

 

Hmm. Id say Rand would be the main soft point. Mat and Perrin to lesser degrees.