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The Red Sails,does it bode a civil war Return vs Seanchan in Randland


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Where do you think this fleet with Red Sails is headed. Could we be looking at battle between the forces of the Return and the pretender from the Seanchan homeland. Where would such a battle take place, EbuDar? Is this the occurance that will finally tip the Return over to supporting Rand and the LightSiders.

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from how I was reading it, it seemed that it was foreign to Seanchan so the only other possibility was Shara invading Seanchan. Unless there was a port in the blight being the blank in the blight and those ships are carrying shadowspawn into Seanchan to attack Seanchan :P

Edited by rand4747
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Huh?

Those ships are described as greatships with bloodred sails I believe and the only ones we know to use "greatships" are the Seanchan. No one else we know does.

Besides neither Shara nor the Island of Madmen would be in a position to strike in that bay. That bay is smack in the middle of the Seanchan empire in that straight between the two major landmasses that make up Seanchan. Shara would first strike the west coast and the Island of Madmen would strike at either coast before it struck there.

Moreover, while we know next to nothing about the current situation on the Island of Madmen Shara just doesn't seem strong enough to send a fleet to raid Seanchan successfully in such a short order.

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The Dark Ones Forces - first 'Vampire Aiel' and now 'Seachan or Sea Folk Pirates'???

 

Could be Demandred forces?

In fact I think that the reason why Demandred's plans and location couldn't be tracked succesfully by Graendal and almost certaintly the other Forsaken is because he was seizing power in Shara. Everyone was looking for him on the Wetlands. He can't be on the TFL nor in Seanchan for that was Semirhage's position. I can only think of Shara. So yeah they may be Demandred troops attacking Seanchan, or another force entirely. But I do think that wherever he strikis, it will be with Shara forces.

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I find Shara to be highly doubtful. Graendal has already played that card IMO. Shara is most likely in a shambles at the moment unable to mobilize in any meaningful way. Seanchan has been planning the Return for a LONG time. Shara is highly insular, with no real interest in expansion of territory, from all accounts we've seen. Then Graendel shows up and kidnaps the rulers, and possibly kills some of the Priesstess class Ayyad. Then comes word from the Aiel and Sea Folk that the Dragon has been Reborn. Next we hear from the Aiel that there is rioting and total chaos in Shara. While the Forsaken do take over countries, its been shown time and again that they also are somewhat constrained by cultural norms of the country they rule. Rhavin had to keep Morgase around for so long because Andor always has Queens, and well, Rhavin ain't a girl. Sammael had to rule within the confines of the Council of Nine in Illian, and wasn't even the King. Belal, again, was only a High Lord, and when he began mobilizing Tear for war, who did he point the army at? Historic foes Illian.

 

Let's say Demandred takes over a Shara. First, he must regain order to the country given the recent turmoil. Next, he must mobilize the country for a massive Sea invasion. These isn't a warrior society. Or if it is, it is insular, and not one directed towards expansion and invasion. They severely limit outsiders views of their society. Now why would these people begin to want to invade another Continent? This would cause them to interact with Outsiders in new and scary ways, and give Outsiders a better view into their society. No matter how much power Demandred has, that's a big cultural shift for a country to have.

 

Oh, and yeah, they need ships. Which are made of WOOD. LOTS OF SHIPS. And Shara is a DESERT nation. I'm thinkig wood is not in high supply. Even if we suppose it was, it would take years of production to make a fleet of sizable meaning to invade a continent. And at most, Demandred has ruled Shara for what? Two years? (and that is probably way longer than is possible, but just giving benefit of the doubt). Not enough time. Now if these invaders came by gateway, MAYBE, just MAYBE, but I'd pin my hopes on the Isle of Madmen, which seems like a fairly violent place, compared to Shara, a xenophobic insular culture.

Edited by DaoineSidhe
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It's the same as with ToM Shara. For the same reasons I accept your argument about Shara being doubtful, IoM doesn't seem less caotic and hasn't had interactions with the outside world. So still doubtful.

Which makes me wonder where the fuck Demandred is. Maybe the red-Aiel?

Is there any theory about them? When I first read of them in the books the first thing I thought was them being part (if not totality) of the Aiel male channelers. But that doesn't seem a big enough deal to have him focused only on that. So, what is he doing? Maybe gathering armies in a totaly different part of the world we haven't heard of?

It can't be wetlands, it can't be TFL, it's hardly possible Shara or IoM, can't be Amayares, can't be Seanchan.

Phaw! It would be nice if we was just one of the Borderlands ruler, waiting for his men to attack from the inside when the LB starts. At least we would know where he is. Phaw!

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To clairfy: I think the red-sailed ships are of Seanchan make. I was only saying that if the invaders were popping out of gateways instead of ships, then it could possibly be Shara, but I'd guess Isle of Madmen first, because they are violent, and if Demandred and others just opened gateways, it would require no real planning, a la Sammael with the Shaido.

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I feel like its a little late in the game to bring in Shara or the Isle, but im definitely curious about thhese guys...if they are attacking seanchan mainland then to me that must mean they have channelers cause seanchan does, and i cant imagine that they dont have there ports protected. so whoever it is knows exactly what they are getting in to and are very well prepared. just cause anything is possible, perhaps the sea folk got their hands on someones ships and are attacking with all the fury of the windfinders, and in someone elses ships because they dont want to risk their own or they cant fit enough people on them. since it could be so many different things then ill throw this one out too

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I am starting to think that Demandred has indeed taken over the Seanchan. We have the Towers of Midnight reference on Seanchan, and the Forsaken being referred to by that in the prophecy and Egwenes dream. Everything happening over there is rather ominous. And really it makes sense; Semirhage controls the Return, Mesaana the Whitetower, Demandred builds a presence on the Seanchan main continent while having proxies in the Blacktower. All major channeling avenues influenced by the Shadow.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I think Demandred is the usurper in Seanchan. We see him tell Moridin that "his rule is secure." If he was in the blight with an army or blight nation, then I would think his rule would not be in doubt. Demandred would only say that if his rule was in question or doubt. The only one not accounted for is the usurper in Seanchan.

 

That said, the red sails are a dissident rebel fleet but most definiately Seanchan in origin. The scene in ToM was meant to show that a land long lived under one rule and law and order is now torn asunder by strife and civil war.

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I think Demandred is the usurper in Seanchan. We see him tell Moridin that "his rule is secure." If he was in the blight with an army or blight nation, then I would think his rule would not be in doubt. Demandred would only say that if his rule was in question or doubt. The only one not accounted for is the usurper in Seanchan.

 

That said, the red sails are a dissident rebel fleet but most definiately Seanchan in origin. The scene in ToM was meant to show that a land long lived under one rule and law and order is now torn asunder by strife and civil war.

would two forsaken put up resides in the same place , no that would be stupid.

 

and why could not these ship that heeding to Seanchan be commanded by Tuon to secure her role as empress in that continent.

Edited by Treeberad
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I think Demandred is the usurper in Seanchan. We see him tell Moridin that "his rule is secure." If he was in the blight with an army or blight nation, then I would think his rule would not be in doubt. Demandred would only say that if his rule was in question or doubt. The only one not accounted for is the usurper in Seanchan.

 

That said, the red sails are a dissident rebel fleet but most definiately Seanchan in origin. The scene in ToM was meant to show that a land long lived under one rule and law and order is now torn asunder by strife and civil war.

would two forsaken put up resides in the same place , no that would be stupid.

 

and why could not these ship that heeding to Seanchan be commanded by Tuon to secure her role as empress in that continent.

 

1) Two Forsaken have been known to work together. Simerhige kills off the royalty creating a gap for Demandred to step in. Sounds like a plan.

 

2 Tuon has not had a chance to confront the monumental task of retaking Seanchan.It would take hundreds of thousands of troops and many channelers to do that. She has none of that. Not to mention she has the rest of Randland to conquer first.

 

Why would he have his rule secure and then kill off the royal family and cause anarchy just when having the Seanchan attack Randland would be most beneficial to the Shadow?

 

It was Demandred who said, Let the Lord of Chaos rule. The Seanchan would be the Light's greatest potential fighting force with the combined elite troops and battle channelers, so it would be to great advantage to take out their unified fighting force. So now instead of the entire force of the Seanchan being able to brought to bear against the Shadow (via gateways), Rand now can only count on Tuon and her advance forces.

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I have often wondered if the Red Sails are in fact Seanchan. RJ might have started laying the ground wrok for the Mat and Tuon outriggers in the WoT series. Perhaps the Red Sails will not play a major role in aMoL, and we will never truly know their purpose if the outriggers aren't written.

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  • 1 year later...

Red Aiel, and now red sails. I think it very likely that the ships are under the control of one of the forsaken, perhaps even a forsaken that we do not know of because they existed on the other side of the world. If the shadow is in control they most certainly would want seanchan in strife - men ruled by demandred would still fight trollocs, as the seanchan soldiers are not all darkfriends. If demandred brought a mega Seanchan army over and took over the westlands and shara and whatnot, then there would be one massive empire that would just go exterminate the blight.

Also, remember when Aviendha sees the future? The Aiel alone fight the Seanchan to almost a standstill, and then they lose over the course of many generations because the wetlanders join in with the Aiel and then the Seanchan defeat them and get more damane. If the Seanchan tried a full scale assault under Demandred, Rand would crush them - the Aiel are already organized, the wetlands are united and ready to fight, Mat is leading the Band of the Red Hand... against the Aiel and an organized wetland force with channelers led by Rand and Egwene and Nynaeve, a seanchan invasion would never gain traction. Rand can destroy an army bigger than all the original seanchan forces currently on the westlands (remember what he did when he rescued Itaruld?) and Nynaeve is almost as powerful as him. Also Rand's forces are not decimated from fighting the shadow yet - and note the huge borderlander army ready to rumble in Far Madding.

 

Could Rand's forces take over Seanchan? Probably not. If all of Seanchan's military might could come over at once, could he stop them? Maybe - they might just bleed his forces dry through Seanchan being way bigger (possibly how the Aiel never won in Aviendha's vision? Seanchan reinforcements kept them from being puahed back into the sea? Otherwise the Aiel would have won because there is a scene in the vision where some Seanchan come through a gateway and are driven back by outnumbered Aiel who kill something like 8 but lose only one.) But if Seanchan has to come over in waves with no foothold (Rand would destroy those already there if more came to try to destroy him) they would never win.

However, the Aiel are the best fighters the light has. Sending the Seanchan against them might be better than sending Seanchan against Seanchan.

 

Also I'm waiting (possibly forever) to read AMoL so my information might be outdated. Please don't spoil it.

Edited by sapoman
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