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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Anything but death


RandA lThor
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There's a quote in the book that said that Nynaeve wouldn't be happy until she healed someone like 3 weeks dead. However, I think this is foreshadowing for something that she will heal that could be seen as death, but isn't. there are a few possiblities for this. Does she heal a huge wound that usually would make someone die and they are about to? Will she do something so Rand can be brought back after his death? Just some possiblities. Discuss.

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The idea of healing someone who is 3 days dead, and similar quotes regarding, for example, not believing Rand is dead until sat with the body for 3 days; is a recurring theme.

Presumably it's a reference to Rand's Jesus qualities, so it seems likely that Nynaeve will do something to restore him to life after he has been dead for 3 days (which would of course fit with several of the prophecies).

 

There's a lot of debate as to what this will be - I believe Terez supports the theory of finding him in TAR and ripping him out in the manner Moghedien did to Birgitte.

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Especially because Nynaeve was there when it happened and might have some idea on how it was done. But this presents some possiblities in two groups. The first part is that once you are ripped out of TAR, you cannot be reborn, so there will never be another Dragon or Dragon Reborn. This also opens up the possiblity of the cycle ending or the DO dying, none of which I support due to quotes I have heard from RJ about this Age not being unique from others of the same kind.

 

The second possiblity is that you can get reborn once you are broken out of Tar which is the one I support. It would be nice to have Birgitte back and would provide a basis for Rand to be ripped out of. However there is only one slight problem in which Moghedien told Birgitte that she would make her weep forever, which may not be possible.

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If the wheel turns and a new age starts sometime after TG wouldn't everything start again from scratch. Rand is the dragon reborn but LTT was in the same age called the third age by some so I don't think it matters how rand is revived because this is the last battle of said third age. It will all come back around next age.with a new dragon mabie called the minnow or some such.

 

The point is a new age a new cycle of all the stuff that has happend time and again since creation.

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The idea of healing someone who is 3 days dead, and similar quotes regarding, for example, not believing Rand is dead until sat with the body for 3 days; is a recurring theme.

Presumably it's a reference to Rand's Jesus qualities, so it seems likely that Nynaeve will do something to restore him to life after he has been dead for 3 days (which would of course fit with several of the prophecies).

 

There's a lot of debate as to what this will be - I believe Terez supports the theory of finding him in TAR and ripping him out in the manner Moghedien did to Birgitte.

That was about Thom, when that inn keeper friend of his was told by Rand he was dead.

Edited by Edynol
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The idea of healing someone who is 3 days dead, and similar quotes regarding, for example, not believing Rand is dead until sat with the body for 3 days; is a recurring theme.

Presumably it's a reference to Rand's Jesus qualities, so it seems likely that Nynaeve will do something to restore him to life after he has been dead for 3 days (which would of course fit with several of the prophecies).

 

There's a lot of debate as to what this will be - I believe Terez supports the theory of finding him in TAR and ripping him out in the manner Moghedien did to Birgitte.

That was about Thom, when that inn keeper friend of his was told by Rand he was dead.

 

It was about Rand post Sun Palace attack...

 

WH

 

He paused, head tilted in thought. “From what I saw of him, my Lady,” he said slowly, “I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.
Edited by Suttree
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The first part is that once you are ripped out of TAR, you cannot be reborn, so there will never be another Dragon or Dragon Reborn.

 

Where did you get that from? When Min did a viewing on Birgitte, she thought it was very strange since there seemed to be an older man and a younger man associated with her. I always took that to mean she was seeing the future in multiple lives for Birgette. And that would mean your statement isn't correct.

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The first part is that once you are ripped out of TAR, you cannot be reborn, so there will never be another Dragon or Dragon Reborn.

 

Where did you get that from? When Min did a viewing on Birgitte, she thought it was very strange since there seemed to be an older man and a younger man associated with her. I always took that to mean she was seeing the future in multiple lives for Birgette. And that would mean your statement isn't correct.

 

Sounds to me she is seeing the current future and the one that would have happended if she had been born correctly. Gadail Cain (i think that was his name, been a while) would be a younger man than her, but he was born before she ripped out so if she was born as she should have he would have been older.

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The first part is that once you are ripped out of TAR, you cannot be reborn, so there will never be another Dragon or Dragon Reborn.

 

Where did you get that from? When Min did a viewing on Birgitte, she thought it was very strange since there seemed to be an older man and a younger man associated with her. I always took that to mean she was seeing the future in multiple lives for Birgette. And that would mean your statement isn't correct.

 

Sounds to me she is seeing the current future and the one that would have happended if she had been born correctly. Gadail Cain (i think that was his name, been a while) would be a younger man than her, but he was born before she ripped out so if she was born as she should have he would have been older.

The Viewing intself: "Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."
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Question re: being reborn/woven back into the pattern.

 

It was in the pattern that Birgitte would be ripped out (or it wouldn't have happened). Heroes are born for specific purposes. The pattern needs them. So would the pattern allow something to happen that would have catastrophic consequences on itself?

 

That, along with Min's visions, makes it seem pretty likely that Birgitte will be pulled back into the pattern(probably into TAR) when she dies. (Which, along with Gaidal being born already, seems to suggest that Birgitte will die during or soon after TG, to be spun out in time to complete her purpose with Gaidal.)

 

As for the Nyn thing, I have faith in the TAR theory.

Edited by Sephie
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Question re: being reborn/woven back into the pattern.

 

It was in the pattern that Birgitte would be ripped out (or it wouldn't have happened). Heroes are born for specific purposes. The pattern needs them. So would the pattern allow something to happen that would have catastrophic consequences on itself?

 

That, along with Min's visions, makes it seem pretty likely that Birgitte will be pulled back into the pattern(probably into TAR) when she dies. (Which, along with Gaidal being born already, seems to suggest that Birgitte will die during or soon after TG, to be spun out in time to complete her purpose with Gaidal.)

 

As for the Nyn thing, I have faith in the TAR theory.

 

The Pattern doesn't "allow" things to happen. It's entirely non-sentient, otherwise the requisite conditions for the DO to ever come close to breaking free (in the hypothetical draw rather than win scenario RJ used to refer to) would never happen.

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Question re: being reborn/woven back into the pattern.

 

It was in the pattern that Birgitte would be ripped out (or it wouldn't have happened). Heroes are born for specific purposes. The pattern needs them. So would the pattern allow something to happen that would have catastrophic consequences on itself?

 

 

 

You would think that being a major part of the weave of the pattern Brigitte and the rest of the heroes would be somewhat protected by the pattern. Even though it is a non-sentient thing. After all Taveren are bound to the pattern and if they are removed suddenly the pattern could fall apart.

 

Falling down the stairs and breaking your neck might cause a chain reaction that would destroy the world if they weren't somewhat protected.

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You would think that being a major part of the weave of the pattern Brigitte and the rest of the heroes would be somewhat protected by the pattern. Even though it is a non-sentient thing. After all Taveren are bound to the pattern and if they are removed suddenly the pattern could fall apart.

They are somewhat protected, by the precepts. It was Birgitte's violation of the precepts that allowed Moghedien to rip her out of T'a'r.
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You would think that being a major part of the weave of the pattern Brigitte and the rest of the heroes would be somewhat protected by the pattern. Even though it is a non-sentient thing. After all Taveren are bound to the pattern and if they are removed suddenly the pattern could fall apart.

They are somewhat protected, by the precepts. It was Birgitte's violation of the precepts that allowed Moghedien to rip her out of T'a'r.

 

Actually I asked Brandon about this, and he said the precepts were not enforced, and that he didn't think violating them specifically removed a protection as opposed to that by violating them Birgitte found herself in a position that was exposed.

 

The impression i was left with was that there more like a guide for how to live been lives rather than a set of mystical laws that bind and protect the heroes.

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If the wheel turns and a new age starts sometime after TG wouldn't everything start again from scratch. Rand is the dragon reborn but LTT was in the same age called the third age by some so I don't think it matters how rand is revived because this is the last battle of said third age. It will all come back around next age.with a new dragon mabie called the minnow or some such.

 

The point is a new age a new cycle of all the stuff that has happend time and again since creation.

i agree that the name doesn't mean much, but lews therin lived in "the age of legends" which is also known as the second age by some, just as the age that the story we are reading is set in is known as the third. there is no question though that lews therin lived on a previous spoke of the 7 spoke wheel of ages.

and it is the third age for a reason, this is not the end of a cycle of the wheel, this will not be the start of a new cycle. if rj had wanted it to be thought of that way he would have set it in the seventh age, not the third. this is just a story in the cycle of ages that is neither at the first spoke on the rim, nor the last.

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Since Min saw multiple lives for Birgitte and we know per RJ that Min's viewings *ALWAYS* pertain to the future, and that viewing was made post her being ripped out, we know for certain fact that Birgitte will be reborn if the pattern survives (which of course, it's going to.)

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