Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The True Power


Recommended Posts

Throughout all the books, I see references to the TP being "of the Dark One" and such. I was perusing a few of the different online sites about it and they all agreed.

 

My question is....if the TP is "of the dark one" why can Rand use it? Surely the Dark One isn't hooking him up in an attempt to trick him somehow.

 

The Gathering Storm ch. 12

 

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force. It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view. He reached toward it with his mind. A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment.

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he's never felt before.

"Oh, Light," Lews Therin suddenly screamed. "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayl. It is HIM."

 

Here we see that Rand taps into the true power.

He sees a face. But there is no inference that he recognizes the face. No hint that Sanderson/Jordan intended for it to be Moridins face.

He identifies the power as "alien" but not "evil" or "foul" as commonly seen when handling the tainted version of saidin. When he points out that he has never felt such before, there are no qualifiers to label it as either "good" or "evil".

Lews Therin (and therefor Rand) as well as all of the Forsaken believe that the True Power is only granted through the graces of the Dark One. However, just because people BELIEVE a thing doesn't make it TRUE.

 

My theory is that the ASSUMPTION that the TP is "of the Dark One" is wrong. My thought is that it can be granted by either the Dark One OR The Creator. I'm beginning to think of it more as a divine power, granted to the greatest champion(s) for each side. However, because of the extremely powerful and possibly destructive nature of the TP, I believe the creator would only grant this boon rarely in times of great need.

Edited by SeriahKarrde
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the general thought is that rand can get at the tp through his link to morridin/ishy. ltt at the time is scared to metaphorical death and says something like never again and somehow informs rand about what power he had drawn on. that is part of the reason why rand carries the key around with him in the rest of tgs, because he is already addicted to the power the do puts out and his only counter is access to a massive ammount of saidin, even rand is scared half to death after he understood what he had done. i dont know, and nobody knows how he was able to use the tp, but it very clearly shook him to the core after he did it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two possibilities:

1. The Dark One granted Rand access to darken and corrupt him. The Dragon is one with the land and corrupting the Dragon, corrupts the land (which happened). It might also make Rand more succeptible to depression (it almost made Rand destroy the Pattern) and turning to the Dark One.

2. Through the link that exists between Rand and Moridin he was capable of having the same access to the True Power as Moridin has.

 

2. seems the more obvious one. Why try to turn Rand by letting him use the True Power, while he was leashed and unable to resist a 13x13 trick. Without the True Power he would have been turned anyway.

 

About the nature of the True Power: there is already a Power from the Creator: the One Power, Saidar and Saidin.

We know that the True Power is addictive, corrupts and the use of it harms the Pattern. And the first try accessing it created the Bore. Seems the Dark One all over the place.

Edited by fikkie77
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

 

 

 

Interview: Jun 27th, 1996

 

AOL Chat 1 (Verbatim)

 

Shosh001

Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with A Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power?

 

Robert Jordan

It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One. There are limits in the same ways there are limits to the One Power. It would be very long if I went into it too much, but some of those limits and costs of drawing on the Dark One are shown in A Crown of Swords.

 

 

 

Interview: Jun 27th, 1996

 

AOL Chat 2 (Verbatim)

 

DayTripr1

And also is the Dark One the only source of the True Power?

 

Robert Jordan

Yes, the Dark One is the only source of the True Power.

Edited by Suttree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

BUT didnt either RJ or BS pull the RAFO card on the question when it was raised: :Are there any other sources of Power out there besides the One Power and the True Power?" (I cant search for the tread, I'm at work, but I read it a couple of weeks ago)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BUT didnt either RJ or BS pull the RAFO card on the question when it was raised: :Are there any other sources of Power out there besides the One Power and the True Power?" (I cant search for the tread, I'm at work, but I read it a couple of weeks ago)

 

Yup, but what does that have to do with the topic? RJ said the DO is the only source of the TP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BUT didnt either RJ or BS pull the RAFO card on the question when it was raised: :Are there any other sources of Power out there besides the One Power and the True Power?" (I cant search for the tread, I'm at work, but I read it a couple of weeks ago)

 

Yup, but what does that have to do with the topic? RJ said the DO is the only source of the TP.

 

Do we have confirmation that he is using the True Power? "Lews Therin" says it is HIM but Lews Therin is just Rand, and Rand doesnt know for sure. He isnt exactly going to ask anyone is he? The RAFO might be a red herring, but now I'm wondering if it isnt the Dark One's True Power that Rand suddenly has access to, but another power altogether. It could happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

May the creator's counter to the TP is the much discussed light Rand was weaving during his one man Shadow smackdown and also covering his brain. It seems kind of unfair that the Shadow can access both the OP and the TP with the good guys limited to only the OP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

May the creator's counter to the TP is the much discussed light Rand was weaving during his one man Shadow smackdown and also covering his brain.

 

Rand was weaving the OP. Naeff, one of the Asha'man, could see Rand's weaves, and was awe-struck by how many Rand was dealing with at once. What's covering his brain is an unknown, true, but a person cannot Heal themselves. So even if Rand could channel some alternate power to the OP that isn't the TP, it's unlikely the cause of the light in Rand's brain, and it most definitely was not what he was channeling in chapter 32 of ToM, "A Storm of Light."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two possibilities:

1. The Dark One granted Rand access to darken and corrupt him. The Dragon is one with the land and corrupting the Dragon, corrupts the land (which happened). It might also make Rand more succeptible to depression (it almost made Rand destroy the Pattern) and turning to the Dark One.

2. Through the link that exists between Rand and Moridin he was capable of having the same access to the True Power as Moridin has.

 

2. seems the more obvious one. Why try to turn Rand by letting him use the True Power, while he was leashed and unable to resist a 13x13 trick. Without the True Power he would have been turned anyway.

 

About the nature of the True Power: there is already a Power from the Creator: the One Power, Saidar and Saidin.

We know that the True Power is addictive, corrupts and the use of it harms the Pattern. And the first try accessing it created the Bore. Seems the Dark One all over the place.

 

We do not know when the first try at using the TP was, but it was not used to drill the bore. They bored a hole in the DO's prison because they sensed that there was a power on the other side that could be used by both men and women. IIRC they used the OP and some combination of machines to create the bore. I do not have quotes to hand, but will look.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We do not know when the first try at using the TP was, but it was not used to drill the bore.

 

You misunderstood fikkie77. Their first attempt to access the TP lead to the drilling of the Bore. That is, fikkie77 said exactly what you just explained, only he/she worded it differently. He/she did not say that it was used to drill the Bore.

Edited by Roxinos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We do not know when the first try at using the TP was, but it was not used to drill the bore.

 

You misunderstood fikkie77. Their first attempt to access the TP lead to the drilling of the Bore. That is, fikkie77 said exactly what you just explained, only he/she worded it differently. He/she did not say that it was used to drill the Bore.

Ya, maybe I did misunderstand. Sorry. But if I did, I misunderstood what was intended, not what was written.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

May the creator's counter to the TP is the much discussed light Rand was weaving during his one man Shadow smackdown and also covering his brain.

 

Rand was weaving the OP. Naeff, one of the Asha'man, could see Rand's weaves, and was awe-struck by how many Rand was dealing with at once. What's covering his brain is an unknown, true, but a person cannot Heal themselves. So even if Rand could channel some alternate power to the OP that isn't the TP, it's unlikely the cause of the light in Rand's brain, and it most definitely was not what he was channeling in chapter 32 of ToM, "A Storm of Light."

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, just nit picking. But while you cannot [currently] heal yourself, you can weave wards and barriers. And the gold stuff could just be something like that. I still don't believe Rand did it himself though. And yeah, he was definitely channeling OP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

May the creator's counter to the TP is the much discussed light Rand was weaving during his one man Shadow smackdown and also covering his brain.

 

Rand was weaving the OP. Naeff, one of the Asha'man, could see Rand's weaves, and was awe-struck by how many Rand was dealing with at once. What's covering his brain is an unknown, true, but a person cannot Heal themselves. So even if Rand could channel some alternate power to the OP that isn't the TP, it's unlikely the cause of the light in Rand's brain, and it most definitely was not what he was channeling in chapter 32 of ToM, "A Storm of Light."

 

I'm not disagreeing with you, just nit picking. But while you cannot [currently] heal yourself, you can weave wards and barriers. And the gold stuff could just be something like that. I still don't believe Rand did it himself though. And yeah, he was definitely channeling OP.

 

Except you can't create a weave if you can't see. You can't see inside your head. Wards and barriers are all well and good, but you can't create them somewhere you can't see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was Moridin Nae'blis at the Crown of Swords? Because if he wasn't, then th DO may also have given him the power of being a source of the TP.

 

Also, Moridin was able to give Graendal the gift of the TP, which means that he can give people the TP.

 

Also, Moridin doesn't need to be a source for Rand to be able to channel it. He might have the same power granted by the DO just because Moridin has it. When Moridin's TP balefire touched Rand's balefire, it might have given Rand the TP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was Moridin Nae'blis at the Crown of Swords? Because if he wasn't, then th DO may also have given him the power of being a source of the TP.

 

Also, Moridin was able to give Graendal the gift of the TP, which means that he can give people the TP.

 

Also, Moridin doesn't need to be a source for Rand to be able to channel it. He might have the same power granted by the DO just because Moridin has it. When Moridin's TP balefire touched Rand's balefire, it might have given Rand the TP.

 

All of the Chosen are allowed to channel the True Power until a Nae'blis is declared. After the Great Lord has declared someone Nae'blis, only the Nae'blis can channel the TP unless specific instructions from the Great Lord are given.

 

The TP is not a "gift" that you give someone. The Great Lord either lets you access it, or not. If he lets you access it, then it's up to you to use it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was Moridin Nae'blis at the Crown of Swords? Because if he wasn't, then th DO may also have given him the power of being a source of the TP.

 

Also, Moridin was able to give Graendal the gift of the TP, which means that he can give people the TP.

 

Also, Moridin doesn't need to be a source for Rand to be able to channel it. He might have the same power granted by the DO just because Moridin has it. When Moridin's TP balefire touched Rand's balefire, it might have given Rand the TP.

 

All of the Chosen are allowed to channel the True Power until a Nae'blis is declared. After the Great Lord has declared someone Nae'blis, only the Nae'blis can channel the TP unless specific instructions from the Great Lord are given.

 

The TP is not a "gift" that you give someone. The Great Lord either lets you access it, or not. If he lets you access it, then it's up to you to use it.

 

Yes, but Moridin was able to give the ability to Graendal for her to use.

Also, the DO doesn't have to give the gift to Rand, Rand just has to use the gift that has already been given to Moridin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but Moridin was able to give the ability to Graendal for her to use.

 

And when was this? As I said before, Graendal and all of the other Chosen were always allowed to use the TP before Moridin was named Nae'blis. This in itself should be enough to suggest that Moridin never gave her the ability, he merely gave her permission.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was Moridin Nae'blis at the Crown of Swords? Because if he wasn't, then th DO may also have given him the power of being a source of the TP.

 

Also, Moridin was able to give Graendal the gift of the TP, which means that he can give people the TP.

 

Also, Moridin doesn't need to be a source for Rand to be able to channel it. He might have the same power granted by the DO just because Moridin has it. When Moridin's TP balefire touched Rand's balefire, it might have given Rand the TP.

 

All of the Chosen are allowed to channel the True Power until a Nae'blis is declared. After the Great Lord has declared someone Nae'blis, only the Nae'blis can channel the TP unless specific instructions from the Great Lord are given.

 

The TP is not a "gift" that you give someone. The Great Lord either lets you access it, or not. If he lets you access it, then it's up to you to use it.

 

Yes, but Moridin was able to give the ability to Graendal for her to use.

 

No he was not. Graendal corrected herself to say it was the Dark One, and that she mustnt make that mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IIRC, the GLoD did not grant them all TP access after the release.

Too many PoVs - Moggy, Aran'gar, Graendal - which suggest that they didn't receive this "gift" wholesale. Only Ishamael. They had all used it before during the AoL - Moggy said 29 (?) people had used TP before in ACoS when she meets Moridin.

Moridin may have requested that G be offered access but he didn't grant it himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IIRC, the GLoD did not grant them all TP access after the release.

Too many PoVs - Moggy, Aran'gar, Graendal - which suggest that they didn't receive this "gift" wholesale. Only Ishamael. They had all used it before during the AoL - Moggy said 29 (?) people had used TP before in ACoS when she meets Moridin.

Moridin may have requested that G be offered access but he didn't grant it himself.

Their POVs suggest a reluctance to use the TP, not an inability to do so, at least until Moridin was on the scene.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

IIRC, the GLoD did not grant them all TP access after the release.

Too many PoVs - Moggy, Aran'gar, Graendal - which suggest that they didn't receive this "gift" wholesale. Only Ishamael. They had all used it before during the AoL - Moggy said 29 (?) people had used TP before in ACoS when she meets Moridin.

Moridin may have requested that G be offered access but he didn't grant it himself.

 

In Demandred's point of view in Winter's Heart he thinks to himself about the use of the True Power, "Only Moridin had that privelege now since his...anointing." This implies that he had access to the TP before Moridin was made Nae'blis. Also, considering Ishamael's exclusive use of it before he was named Nae'blis (when he was called Ba'alzamon), you can also suppose that the Chosen were allowed to use the TP (but chose not to) up until Moridin was "anointed."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IIRC, the GLoD did not grant them all TP access after the release.

Too many PoVs - Moggy, Aran'gar, Graendal - which suggest that they didn't receive this "gift" wholesale. Only Ishamael. They had all used it before during the AoL - Moggy said 29 (?) people had used TP before in ACoS when she meets Moridin.

Moridin may have requested that G be offered access but he didn't grant it himself.

 

In Demandred's point of view in Winter's Heart he thinks to himself about the use of the True Power, "Only Moridin had that privelege now since his...anointing." This implies that he had access to the TP before Moridin was made Nae'blis. Also, considering Ishamael's exclusive use of it before he was named Nae'blis (when he was called Ba'alzamon), you can also suppose that the Chosen were allowed to use the TP (but chose not to) up until Moridin was "anointed."

 

I agree with this. I would also add their reluctance to use it is probably the reason they were denied it. Access means you are a favorite, but then they didnt use it. Thats like being given a crown and never wearing it. So let the only guy who wears the crown keep it, and see what the rest think of THAT. Moridins the only one that didnt care about getting his humanity dirty. Denied access meant they no longer have the option-doesnt matter if they scorned it or not, its the message it sends that counts.

 

Of course, from the Dark Ones PoV it would be better to have 13 users on the loose, but he never had 13 USERS, he only had one.

Edited by Drekka Mort
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Graendal's statement was that 29 others had been granted the TP in the past. Presumably in the AoL. Whether she meant 29 plus her, or 29 plus her and Moridin remains a mystery, but it does illustrate that at one time many people were using. However, since it's doubtful that those 30-31 people constituted the entirety of the Forsaken (exact AoL numbers are never given, but if they were waging large scale war and WINNING, there were clearly many, many more), then one has to assume only those in the upper echelons were given the ability.

 

The Chosen aren't dumb, they know that channeling the TP for any extended period of time has side effects. Saa forming in the eyes, extreme addiction, etc... I've even seen it put forward before that Ishamael's extreme condition of flaming eyes and mouth was a side effect of going above and beyond the normal Saa-stage of prolonged TP usage. Personally, I assumed it was Illusion, but it seems Rand would have noticed that during their fight unless it was an inverted permanent weave.

 

Even if granted the ability to channel it, the smart ones who still want to be able to function and penetrate normal society would be wise to avoid using it except in dire need. Doesn't seem that the Great Lord would punish or reward anyone just for their use/disuse of the TP on those grounds.

 

Ishamael/Moridin, however, has rarely displayed a desire to function in normal society and thus doesn't seem to have that much a reason not to channel it as often as he likes. Being made Nae'blis, and as such being the only one worthy of channeling the TP for now (aside from Graendal's recent inclusion) seems to be simply merit based. He put in the work, so he got the title and the sole usage for the time being. The others have, by and large, been failing miserably in almost all their plotting and maneuvering, so they just weren't worthy of that kind of favor. Whether they could still channel the TP before Moridin's naming as Nae'blis remains a mystery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've even seen it put forward before that Ishamael's extreme condition of flaming eyes and mouth was a side effect of going above and beyond the normal Saa-stage of prolonged TP usage. Personally, I assumed it was Illusion, but it seems Rand would have noticed that during their fight unless it was an inverted permanent weave.

 

This hasn't just been "put forward", it has been confirmed by RJ.

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 27th, 2004

Wotmania Interview (Verbatim)

WOTMANIA

Ishamael's corpse in The Dragon Reborn had only pits where his eyes and mouth once were. Was this a result of the True Power? If this is true, is the True Power the reason that Fades have no eyes, but some supernatural abilities?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

The True Power is reason that Ishamael's corpse had no eyes, just as it was the reason that his eyes had been caverns of flame, but it not precisely the reason that Fades have no eyes

 

:smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...