Is ever victorious army a myth?

[Sharaman]

Everyone knows that Seanchan is currently in chaos. Nobody is expecting massive reinforcements from Seanchan. In fact, Tuon has pretty ruled out going back until Tarmai'gaidon.

The Seanchan beat several organised armies as Mr Ares pointed out.

They fought Rand's forces out of Ilian led by a great captain to a standstill.

Mat, as pointed out earlier, did not fight any pitched battles in KoD until the very last when he beat a force of inexperienced auxiliaries, Read Karede's conversation with the other Seanchan commander in Northern Altara to confirm that there were few/ no Seanchan regulars up against Mat's band.

Again, read Rodel's PoV from TGH to get a hint of what he thinks after he wins his last battle against the Seanchan. He expects to lose and perhaps, be wiped out when the DR arrives and gives him a lifeline.

BTW Perrin won a battle in Malden - not Maradon.

[SuperFade]

An engagement that the Seanchan have actually won: the Battle of Jeramel, aka Ailron's Disaster. Battle of Ebou Dar. Battle of Amador. They successfully conquered Tarabon, Amadicia and Altara, not to mention the entire Seanchan continent. Rand was faced with defeat in the face of a superior foe (Bashere was urging retreat) before he used Callandor - and both sides claim that as a defeat, not just the Seanchan.

 

Simpleman2012 has posted an excellent rebuttal for all those victories, but I'd just like to focus on the last point with Rand and Bashere. They were not losing at all - Rand and Bashere were thrashing the Seanchan and had them on the run. Rand wanted to drive the Seanchan troops into the sea, but Bashere told him that the Seanchan were already retreating and that they should cease pursuit so as not to overextend themselves. It was only Rand bringing out Callandor that turned the battle into a pyrrhic victory - if the True Source hadn't gone haywire then the Seanchan would have been annihilated.

[Finnssss22]

Losing a battle is not even close to the same as losing a War.

They have lost battles but have not lost a War yet and therefore are still "The Ever Victorious".

 

They have fought two Wars.

The first, the consolidation of Seanchan, took over 1100 years to win and the second, vs the Shadowspawn or at least what they thought was Shadowspawn happened after that.

They are now in their third War and if Avi's visions hold true, they are currently on pace to win that War as well.

[master]

technically it is possible to lose every battle but still win the war. each battle you fight will have soldiers on both sides killed. if you outnumber them enough they'll run out of soldiers long before you do.

 

also wasnt a lot of the stuff happening recently to the seachan based on mismanagement by darkfriends. I seem to vaguely remember a comment about whole armies being lost due to incompetence.

[Finnssss22]

technically it is possible to lose every battle but still win the war. each battle you fight will have soldiers on both sides killed. if you outnumber them enough they'll run out of soldiers long before you do.

 

also wasnt a lot of the stuff happening recently to the seachan based on mismanagement by darkfriends. I seem to vaguely remember a comment about whole armies being lost due to incompetence.

 

Yeah, that was Tuon thinking about Suroth and the near 300k they lost to Ituralde's ambush at Darluna.

[Mr Ares]

you have raised some fairly valid points and I do agree with some of them. Although Other than WT They have had no victories. to write home about. Only other success that I can contribute was taking of Maradon. Which was of course Perrin's show and Khirgee was along for a ride only or to procure fork root. Let me be honest I do not like Seanchan's and maybe that is a factor that I do not want to think about a world dominated by them. Having said that we have not seen a single proof of them winning an engagement in which they had enemies with teeth who could bite back. As for them winning Altara, Tarabon and Amdacia. Out of these three only Amadacia had a fighting force and some of the children of light reached some sort of agreement with them. Now my memory being what it is does not tell me whether that was after or before the take over of Amadacia. As for Ebou Dar we saw how pathetic they were with less than couple of thousand Guards for Amathera and they controlled nothing outside the City proper. Similarly, Altara was given up without a fight by the Queen who had Mat as pet. I am again forgetting the name. As for Rand losing I think you need to go back and reread the passage. From what I can remember and you cannot really depend upon it. Rand,s party had them on the run and they were just not winning fast enough that is why he took out Callandor. I do not remember exactly but a quote will be appreciated.

I don't know which part of the conquest of three countries was "nothing to write home about." Amadicia, in particular, was not in chaos, and was capable of offering organised resistance - said resistance was shattered. The Battle of Jeramel is a battle in which the enemy were capable of fighting back, an enemy who still had teeth. The Children defected after Ailron's Disaster. At Ebou Dar, bear in mind they defeated the Sea Folk as well. As for rereads, you definitely need to do one. Amathera was Panarch of Tarabon, Tylin was Queen of Altara (the capital of which is Ebou Dar). Given that your memory is faulty on numerous points, why do you think I must be wrong on this one? No, the Seanchan were not retreating.

 

First thing Muad please do not quote me like that it gives me queasy feeling. Ok coming back to your points. Well. I admitted that maybe I am not completely objective so no point in rubbing that one in. Mr Ares did and I countered it with a very valid argument that they did not defeat anyone with a sizable army.

Which is not valid, because it is not true.

Since, you are very fond of historical parallels. Did not Blitzkrieg started like that? Nazis had Poland in few days, France went next despite the Maginot line and within few sort months they had the control of entire continental Europe in few months. Why cannot we take that as a historical parallel. Until American forces joined in with superior Air force and the tide of war turned.

The tide of the war turned on the Eastern Front - that's where the majority of German forces were engaged, and D-Day didn't happen until they were already on the retreat. The decisive American contribution to the war against Germany would probably be lend-lease.

Similarly, Wise ones are going to have the support from Ashamen. As for Avi's vision. well that is the whole purpose of the exercise. we are working on the premise that it is not going to happen. As for Suttree well your faith in my talent is overwhelming and I read your comment with tears in my eyes. But this is the problem. You people refuse to accept anything that does not match with your preconceived notions and absolutely refuse to look at the evidence in its entirety and just take the most inconsequential part and insist on it. I am again saying that this so called EVA is yet to beat an organized fighting force.

And I am saying againt that this is wrong - they beat an organised fighting force at Jeramel. So decisively, the battle is known as Ailron's Disaster. It is you who is not looking at all the facts, you who is sticking to preconceived notions. The facts in the books do not support your arguments. Your knowledge of many details is demonstrably lacking. If you were just willing to listen, you might learn a lot.

 

An engagement that the Seanchan have actually won: the Battle of Jeramel, aka Ailron's Disaster. Battle of Ebou Dar. Battle of Amador. They successfully conquered Tarabon, Amadicia and Altara, not to mention the entire Seanchan continent. Rand was faced with defeat in the face of a superior foe (Bashere was urging retreat) before he used Callandor - and both sides claim that as a defeat, not just the Seanchan.

 

Simpleman2012 has posted an excellent rebuttal for all those victories, but I'd just like to focus on the last point with Rand and Bashere. They were not losing at all - Rand and Bashere were thrashing the Seanchan and had them on the run. Rand wanted to drive the Seanchan troops into the sea, but Bashere told him that the Seanchan were already retreating and that they should cease pursuit so as not to overextend themselves. It was only Rand bringing out Callandor that turned the battle into a pyrrhic victory - if the True Source hadn't gone haywire then the Seanchan would have been annihilated.

Simpleman2012 offered a rebuttal, I wouldn't call it excellent. "'Part of fighting is knowing when to go, and it's time.'" Bashere to Rand, PoD 24. It goes on: "'You want to find them. Look out there. I can't point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren't in the way... Maybe a hundred damane down there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you.'" That's not the Seanchan retreating. Not even close. There's more, but I think I've proved my point. Rand was faced with defeat, the Seanchan outnumbered and outgunned him. Bashere urged retreat on those grounds.

[Finnssss22]

you have raised some fairly valid points and I do agree with some of them. Although Other than WT They have had no victories. to write home about. Only other success that I can contribute was taking of Maradon. Which was of course Perrin's show and Khirgee was along for a ride only or to procure fork root. Let me be honest I do not like Seanchan's and maybe that is a factor that I do not want to think about a world dominated by them. Having said that we have not seen a single proof of them winning an engagement in which they had enemies with teeth who could bite back. As for them winning Altara, Tarabon and Amdacia. Out of these three only Amadacia had a fighting force and some of the children of light reached some sort of agreement with them. Now my memory being what it is does not tell me whether that was after or before the take over of Amadacia. As for Ebou Dar we saw how pathetic they were with less than couple of thousand Guards for Amathera and they controlled nothing outside the City proper. Similarly, Altara was given up without a fight by the Queen who had Mat as pet. I am again forgetting the name. As for Rand losing I think you need to go back and reread the passage. From what I can remember and you cannot really depend upon it. Rand,s party had them on the run and they were just not winning fast enough that is why he took out Callandor. I do not remember exactly but a quote will be appreciated.

I don't know which part of the conquest of three countries was "nothing to write home about." Amadicia, in particular, was not in chaos, and was capable of offering organised resistance - said resistance was shattered. The Battle of Jeramel is a battle in which the enemy were capable of fighting back, an enemy who still had teeth. The Children defected after Ailron's Disaster. At Ebou Dar, bear in mind they defeated the Sea Folk as well. As for rereads, you definitely need to do one. Amathera was Panarch of Tarabon, Tylin was Queen of Altara (the capital of which is Ebou Dar). Given that your memory is faulty on numerous points, why do you think I must be wrong on this one? No, the Seanchan were not retreating.

 

First thing Muad please do not quote me like that it gives me queasy feeling. Ok coming back to your points. Well. I admitted that maybe I am not completely objective so no point in rubbing that one in. Mr Ares did and I countered it with a very valid argument that they did not defeat anyone with a sizable army.

Which is not valid, because it is not true.

Since, you are very fond of historical parallels. Did not Blitzkrieg started like that? Nazis had Poland in few days, France went next despite the Maginot line and within few sort months they had the control of entire continental Europe in few months. Why cannot we take that as a historical parallel. Until American forces joined in with superior Air force and the tide of war turned.

The tide of the war turned on the Eastern Front - that's where the majority of German forces were engaged, and D-Day didn't happen until they were already on the retreat. The decisive American contribution to the war against Germany would probably be lend-lease.

Similarly, Wise ones are going to have the support from Ashamen. As for Avi's vision. well that is the whole purpose of the exercise. we are working on the premise that it is not going to happen. As for Suttree well your faith in my talent is overwhelming and I read your comment with tears in my eyes. But this is the problem. You people refuse to accept anything that does not match with your preconceived notions and absolutely refuse to look at the evidence in its entirety and just take the most inconsequential part and insist on it. I am again saying that this so called EVA is yet to beat an organized fighting force.

And I am saying againt that this is wrong - they beat an organised fighting force at Jeramel. So decisively, the battle is known as Ailron's Disaster. It is you who is not looking at all the facts, you who is sticking to preconceived notions. The facts in the books do not support your arguments. Your knowledge of many details is demonstrably lacking. If you were just willing to listen, you might learn a lot.

 

An engagement that the Seanchan have actually won: the Battle of Jeramel, aka Ailron's Disaster. Battle of Ebou Dar. Battle of Amador. They successfully conquered Tarabon, Amadicia and Altara, not to mention the entire Seanchan continent. Rand was faced with defeat in the face of a superior foe (Bashere was urging retreat) before he used Callandor - and both sides claim that as a defeat, not just the Seanchan.

 

Simpleman2012 has posted an excellent rebuttal for all those victories, but I'd just like to focus on the last point with Rand and Bashere. They were not losing at all - Rand and Bashere were thrashing the Seanchan and had them on the run. Rand wanted to drive the Seanchan troops into the sea, but Bashere told him that the Seanchan were already retreating and that they should cease pursuit so as not to overextend themselves. It was only Rand bringing out Callandor that turned the battle into a pyrrhic victory - if the True Source hadn't gone haywire then the Seanchan would have been annihilated.

Simpleman2012 offered a rebuttal, I wouldn't call it excellent. "'Part of fighting is knowing when to go, and it's time.'" Bashere to Rand, PoD 24. It goes on: "'You want to find them. Look out there. I can't point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren't in the way... Maybe a hundred damane down there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you.'" That's not the Seanchan retreating. Not even close. There's more, but I think I've proved my point. Rand was faced with defeat, the Seanchan outnumbered and outgunned him. Bashere urged retreat on those grounds.

 

Rand's forces had beaten the Seanchan back, badly in fact and they were in full retreat.

It was only in Rand's desire to completely push them back into the sea compounded with the wildness of Saidin that Bashere suggested a withdrawal.

 

As we have seen from numerous Mat PoV's, you always leave them a way out. Rand was not going to do that and backed them into a corner.

Rand failed in completely destroying them, he didn't fail in beating them.

 

I mean hell, Rand's forces pushed the Seanchan back to within 100 miles of Ebou Dar itself and Saidin going crazy in that area, and only that, stopped Rand from destroying them.

[Mr Ares]

The quotes I've posted say otherwise. Unless you have actual evidence to support your point, I'm going to say you're wrong.

[Finnssss22]

The quotes I've posted say otherwise. Unless you have actual evidence to support your point, I'm going to say you're wrong.

 

The the only evidence I need is Captian Abaldar Yulan's PoV (The same guy who proposes the attack on the White Tower) at the end of aPoD chapter 24 when he orders a full retreat to Ebou Dar. He then contemplates how the Seanchan have suffered their second devastating defeat in these lands and that he will have to apologize to Suroth and the Empress for it.

 

Abaldar Yulan wept, grateful for the downpour that hid the tears on his cheeks. Someone would have to give the order. Eventually someone would have to apologize to the Empress, might she live forever, and maybe to Suroth sooner. Those were not why he wept, though, nor even for the dead comrade. Roughly ripping a sleeve from his coat, he laid it across Miraj's staring eyes so the rain would not fall in them.

"Send the orders for retreat," Yulan ordered, and saw the men standing around him jerk. For the second time on these shores, the Ever Victorious Army had suffered a devastating defeat, and Yulan did not think he was the only one that wept.

 

 

Rand might of been leaving by that point but the damage was done.

Rand's forces kicked their asses for almost the entire country of Altara, had them backed up almost on top of Ebou Dar itself and were only slowed/stopped in the end by Saidin failing.

[Orderofolde]

Whatever the number of people carried, that's still an enormous number of ships. The Great Michael took 3 - 4 years to build, and even if you assume that dozens were being built at a time it would still have taken centuries to build a fleet of thousands of them. By the time the last ships were completed the first would have already begun to rot in the water. Even if the Seanchan were crazy enough to build drydocks for all the ships there would still be maintenance issues.

 

Eh, I guess it's just one of those things that destroys your suspension of disbelief if you think about it hard enough, like Aiel being superhuman runners who can keep pace with horses for long periods of time.

It was stated somewhere that the Seanchan spent 20 years preparing for The Return, building ships and training up their forces. And if Damane can be put to use making pretty lights in the skies, then it would be neglectful not to think that they wouldn't be used in ship building. We should remember that Seanchan is really made up of many different regions, comparatively of a size with say, South America or North America. Their culture has only had to worry about warring with itself as they don't have to worry about Trollocs. This means larger population booms whereas the Borderlands are steadily depleted by men and women stolen in raids and the constant fighting to keep the shadow back.

 

Another thing to note is that we've seen a lot of instances of Seanchan forces having as little as 1 actual soldier to perhaps a squad of actual Seanchan among them. Taraboners and Altarans are usually mentioned bearing the stripes of color across their armor as comprising the main forces even when Rand wields Callandor and wages war against them.

 

As to the number of ships, we don't really think all the ships that came to unload their civilians and their soldiers simply backed out and dropped anchor in the harbor, do we? With Damane serving aboard, it meant faster crossings, (even the Aes Sedai could manage it as seen in The Great Hunt along the river) though I doubt that there was time to do more than return for another load of troops and start back before the Empress was killed.

[SuperFade]

It was stated somewhere that the Seanchan spent 20 years preparing for The Return, building ships and training up their forces. And if Damane can be put to use making pretty lights in the skies, then it would be neglectful not to think that they wouldn't be used in ship building. We should remember that Seanchan is really made up of many different regions, comparatively of a size with say, South America or North America. Their culture has only had to worry about warring with itself as they don't have to worry about Trollocs. This means larger population booms whereas the Borderlands are steadily depleted by men and women stolen in raids and the constant fighting to keep the shadow back.

 

They built more than a thousand ships in only 20 years? That's insane. The only thing damane might be able to help with in shipbuilding is felling timber and maybe cutting it into planks. Building a ship isn't as simple as just hammering wood together, you'd need extremely skilled and professional shipbuilders. Particularly when it's not just an ordinary ship but one that's made to cross an extremely large stretch of deep water. Would a damane have such skills? We know that some are used to detect ores and metals in the ground, but as far as I know they aren't entrusted with more complex tasks. Seanchan is certainly a big place with enough resources but how many ports would they have that were capable of producing these ships en-masse?

 

Well, I've already said why I don't think the Return is plausible earlier on in the topic. I'll just leave it at that because there are too many unknowns floating around in order to say for certain.

[Suttree]

The quotes I've posted say otherwise. Unless you have actual evidence to support your point, I'm going to say you're wrong.

 

The the only evidence I need is Captian Abaldar Yulan's PoV (The same guy who proposes the attack on the White Tower) at the end of aPoD chapter 24 when he orders a full retreat to Ebou Dar. He then contemplates how the Seanchan have suffered their second devastating defeat in these lands and that he will have to apologize to Suroth and the Empress for it.

 

Abaldar Yulan wept, grateful for the downpour that hid the tears on his cheeks. Someone would have to give the order. Eventually someone would have to apologize to the Empress, might she live forever, and maybe to Suroth sooner. Those were not why he wept, though, nor even for the dead comrade. Roughly ripping a sleeve from his coat, he laid it across Miraj's staring eyes so the rain would not fall in them.

"Send the orders for retreat," Yulan ordered, and saw the men standing around him jerk. For the second time on these shores, the Ever Victorious Army had suffered a devastating defeat, and Yulan did not think he was the only one that wept.

 

 

Rand might of been leaving by that point but the damage was done.

Rand's forces kicked their asses for almost the entire country of Altara, had them backed up almost on top of Ebou Dar itself and were only slowed/stopped in the end by Saidin failing.

 

This is quite simply incorrect Finnsss. Mr Ares has the right of it. Your quote provided is after Rand used Callandor while the one Ares provides is before. The Seanchan were not retreating, they were adapting and closing in and Bashere counseled pulling out. It was only after Rand used Callandor slaughtering his own men(and didn't realize how much damage he actually did) that both sides thought they lost.

[Suttree]

The quotes I've posted say otherwise. Unless you have actual evidence to support your point, I'm going to say you're wrong.

 

The the only evidence I need is Captian Abaldar Yulan's PoV (The same guy who proposes the attack on the White Tower) at the end of aPoD chapter 24 when he orders a full retreat to Ebou Dar. He then contemplates how the Seanchan have suffered their second devastating defeat in these lands and that he will have to apologize to Suroth and the Empress for it.

 

Abaldar Yulan wept, grateful for the downpour that hid the tears on his cheeks. Someone would have to give the order. Eventually someone would have to apologize to the Empress, might she live forever, and maybe to Suroth sooner. Those were not why he wept, though, nor even for the dead comrade. Roughly ripping a sleeve from his coat, he laid it across Miraj's staring eyes so the rain would not fall in them.

"Send the orders for retreat," Yulan ordered, and saw the men standing around him jerk. For the second time on these shores, the Ever Victorious Army had suffered a devastating defeat, and Yulan did not think he was the only one that wept.

 

 

Rand might of been leaving by that point but the damage was done.

Rand's forces kicked their asses for almost the entire country of Altara, had them backed up almost on top of Ebou Dar itself and were only slowed/stopped in the end by Saidin failing.

 

This is quite simply incorrect Finnsss. Mr Ares has the right of it. Your quote provided is after Rand used Callandor while the one Ares provides is before. The Seanchan were not retreating, they were adapting and closing in(see Bashere quote above) and Bashere counseled pulling out. It was only after Rand used Callandor slaughtering his own men(and didn't realize how much damage he actually did to the Seanchan) that both sides thought they lost. By your argument Rand thinking "I’ve lost, Rand thought dully. I’m the Dragon Reborn, but for the first time, I’ve lost." should hold as much weight as Yulan's.

 

 

They built more than a thousand ships in only 20 years? That's insane.

 

The other poster is mistaken. Can't recall the time frame given in the text but it was far greater.

[XXX]

The Seachan Rand battle can only be called a draw with major props to the Seachan for adapting to things they have never seen before like Men channeling and also the use of travelling to outflank them. It is just pure tactical genius just to hang in there with Rand and his men.

 

As for Rand and the use of Callandor..once you start bringing in powerful channelers with powerful sa'angreal then all bets are off. Rand with the Choedal kal for instance can blast the entire Seachan army out of existence just like he could any other army. Now that is hardly a fair fight is it?

[Finnssss22]

This is quite simply incorrect Finnsss. Mr Ares has the right of it. Your quote provided is after Rand used Callandor while the one Ares provides is before. The Seanchan were not retreating, they were adapting and closing in and Bashere counseled pulling out. It was only after Rand used Callandor slaughtering his own men(and didn't realize how much damage he actually did) that both sides thought they lost.

 

It is not incorrect.

They pushed the Seanchan back hundreds of miles right to Ebou Dar itself. Again, I fail to see how the enormity of this is not being comprehended?

The only thing that allowed the Seanchan to even start coming close to holding their own was the wildness of Saidin.

At that point is was just as likely for an Asha'man or Rand to kill his own troops with the power than to kill Seanchan.

After the first 5 days of battle, Rand's forces had only suffered a mere 300 causalities while capturing 23 sul'dam, 2 damane and killed god knows how many soldiers to account for that many sul'dam/damane prisoners.

At this point, they had the Seanchan in full retreat already and some of Rand's commanders suggested that they take the clear victory and withdraw but Rand wanted to push them back into the sea like at Falme.

Again, the only reason he didn't accomplish this was due to Saidin failing.

Rand wasn't the first to lose control of Saidin and kill his own men, it had already happened.

It was also happening to the damane but their channeling was not as vital to the Seanchan tactics as it is for Rand's forces tactics.

 

Also, any reference to when Rand was attacked and injured is pure crap. That was clearly set up and allowed by Weiramon.

 

The final battle viewed properly, would be considered a draw but every battle up to that point for hundreds of miles were the Seanchan clearly and irrevocably getting their asses kicked!

[Suttree]

At this point, they had the Seanchan in full retreat already and some of Rand's commanders suggested that they take the clear victory and withdraw but Rand wanted to push them back into the sea like at Falme.

 

This is where you are wrong. They were not already in full retreat. That is simply not supported by the text, the quote you are using for Yulan actually sounds the retreat and that is AFTER the Callandor incident. Bashere lays it all out in the quote Ares provided.

 

You want to find them. Look out there. I can't point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren't in the way... Maybe a hundred damane down there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you.'"

 

What part of that is full retreat? Although Rand had done well for the first part of the campaign the Seanchan had adapted and were closing in, not retreating.

[Finnssss22]

At this point, they had the Seanchan in full retreat already and some of Rand's commanders suggested that they take the clear victory and withdraw but Rand wanted to push them back into the sea like at Falme.

 

This is where you are wrong. They were not already in full retreat. That is simply not supported by the text, the quote you are using for Yulan actually sounds the retreat and that is AFTER the Callandor incident. Bashere lays it all out in the quote Ares provided.

 

No, I'm not.

Yes, the Yulan quote was after Rand blew apart the battlefield with Callandor in chapter 24. The after 5 days part was the day before that from Rand's PoV at the end of chapter 23.

I just re-read both chapters this morning before responding to all this, I suggest you do the same.

 

You want to find them. Look out there. I can't point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren't in the way... Maybe a hundred damane down there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you.'"

 

What part of that is full retreat? Although Rand had done well for the first part of the campaign the Seanchan had adapted and were closing in, not retreating.

 

Like I said, re-read both chapters, especially what is said at the end of chapter 23.

Rand's forces arrived about 100 League's North-East of Ebou Dar and by the 6th day, they had pushed the Seanchan forces back towards Ebou Dar almost 300 miles.

 

 

Let me put it another way....during the entire time that Rand's forces were besieging Altara, the Seanchan did not win a single engagement.

[Suttree]

At this point, they had the Seanchan in full retreat already and some of Rand's commanders suggested that they take the clear victory and withdraw but Rand wanted to push them back into the sea like at Falme.

 

This is where you are wrong. They were not already in full retreat. That is simply not supported by the text, the quote you are using for Yulan actually sounds the retreat and that is AFTER the Callandor incident. Bashere lays it all out in the quote Ares provided.

 

No, I'm not.

Yes, the Yulan quote was after Rand blew apart the battlefield with Callandor in chapter 24. The after 5 days part was the day before that from Rand's PoV at the end of chapter 23.

I just re-read both chapters this morning before responding to all this, I suggest you do the same.

 

You want to find them. Look out there. I can't point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren't in the way... Maybe a hundred damane down there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you.'"

 

What part of that is full retreat? Although Rand had done well for the first part of the campaign the Seanchan had adapted and were closing in, not retreating.

 

Like I said, re-read both chapters, especially what is said at the end of chapter 23.

Rand's forces arrived about 100 League's North-East of Ebou Dar and by the 6th day, they had pushed the Seanchan forces back towards Ebou Dar almost 300 miles.

 

I have read it a number of times, that is just about my favorite section in the series. I addressed Rand's success earlier but the advance had stalled. You refuse to touch upon the one pertinent piece of information Bashere gives us that they have targeted Rand and are advancing. In other words they had adapted exactly like we said. You keep repeating the same information while dodging the main point Ares brought up ages ago.

[Finnssss22]

I have read it a number of times, that is just about my favorite section in the series. I addressed Rand's success earlier but the advance had stalled. You refuse to touch upon the one pertinent piece of information Bashere gives us that they have targeted Rand and are advancing. In other words they had adapted exactly like we said. You keep repeating the same information while dodging the main point Ares brought up ages ago.

 

But they hadn't adapted.

Rand's forces advanced tactics were highly dependent on channeling. When channeling become unreliable, their advanced tactics went out the window and the playing field was leveled.

There was no adapting. Saidin stalled them, not the Seanchan.

 

Like I said, during the entire 6 days of fighting, the Seanchan did not win a single engagement and had their asses kicked for almost 300 miles.

[Suttree]

I have read it a number of times, that is just about my favorite section in the series. I addressed Rand's success earlier but the advance had stalled. You refuse to touch upon the one pertinent piece of information Bashere gives us that they have targeted Rand and are advancing. In other words they had adapted exactly like we said. You keep repeating the same information while dodging the main point Ares brought up ages ago.

 

But they hadn't adapted.

Rand's forces advanced tactics were highly dependent on channeling. When channeling become unreliable, their advanced tactics went out the window and the playing field was leveled.

There was no adapting. Saidin stalled them, not the Seanchan.

 

Like I said, during the entire 6 days of fighting, the Seanchan did not win a single engagement.

 

Both sides had to deal with the channeling problems, the Seanchan changed their tactics and adapted. Amazing that you would post yet again while still dodging the one pertinent fact that the Seanchan were advancing on Rand! Over a hundered damane and 15000 troops close enough to see all closing in on Rand. That is not a full retreat by any stretch of the imagination. Seriously mate stop dodging the issue. Rand ignored Bashere's warning that the Seanchan had adpated tactics and were closing in. It doesn't matter how many engagements they lost, they would have taken down Rand(won the battle) if not for Callandor.

[Suttree]

I have read it a number of times, that is just about my favorite section in the series. I addressed Rand's success earlier but the advance had stalled. You refuse to touch upon the one pertinent piece of information Bashere gives us that they have targeted Rand and are advancing. In other words they had adapted exactly like we said. You keep repeating the same information while dodging the main point Ares brought up ages ago.

 

But they hadn't adapted.

Rand's forces advanced tactics were highly dependent on channeling. When channeling become unreliable, their advanced tactics went out the window and the playing field was leveled.

There was no adapting. Saidin stalled them, not the Seanchan.

 

Like I said, during the entire 6 days of fighting, the Seanchan did not win a single engagement.

 

Both sides had to deal with the channeling problems, the Seanchan changed their tactics and adapted. Amazing that you would post yet again while still dodging the one pertinent fact that the Seanchan were advancing on Rand! Over a hundered damane and 15000 troops close enough to see all closing in on Rand. That is not a full retreat by any stretch of the imagination. Seriously mate stop dodging the issue. Rand ignored Bashere's warning that the Seanchan had adpated tactics and were closing in. It doesn't matter how many engagements they lost, they would have taken down Rand(won the battle) if not for Callandor making it a phyrric victory.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Personally, I agree with Suttree, however, before this gets too heated, we can all agree that the battle with Rand was a unique situation that cannot be used as evidence about the efficiency or lack thereof of the Ever Victorious Army?

[Agitel]

Personally, I agree with Suttree, however, before this gets too heated, we can all agree that the battle with Rand was a unique situation that cannot be used as evidence about the efficiency or lack thereof of the Ever Victorious Army?

 

I was about to bring this up. Rand is both the most powerful channeler alive, ta'veren, and was only able to truly defeat the Seanchan while wielding Callandor. With that said, most of the Seanchan victories have been in countries already in chaos or relative disunion, except for Amadicia, which was conquered quite brilliantly. The Seanchan Empire has been at relative peace for 200 years, it's military more adapted to putting down disadvantaged rebellions than waging an all out war. I wouldn't be upset if it was revealed that the military wasn't exactly living up to its namesake. With that said, I think it would be an exaggeration to count it weak. It adapts quickly, is highly organized, and is a single, unified fighting force. I don't consider the Return to be impossible or to require a huge suspension of disbelief. Perhaps the circumstances leading up to it (such a large Empire, 800 years of conquest, etc...) is a little stretch, but given where Seanchan was at the start of the series, the Return itself makes sense. Given time to adapt to real warfare, the Seanchan military machine can get rolling pretty easily, and if they restore peace in Seanchan and have the use of gateways, it's not unbelievable that such a large Empire could eventually roll over the multiple, fractured states of the westlands due to sheer size, organization, and adaptability.

[SuperFade]

It's clear that the Seanchan were supposed to be this endless, nigh-unstoppable, ever-changing foe who always came back from each defeat stronger than before and ready to take down whoever defeated them last. We are told by the text repeatedly that they can't be defeated and the only chance is to negotiate with them. The problem is that most of the on-screen battles against them end in either their defeat or a draw. Nearly all of their major victories take place offscreen and in areas where there was little chance of effective resistance to begin with. We are told that they adapt to every tactic used against them, but do we ever see any examples of this in-text? I mean explicitly, with Character A saying to Character B "Our previous tactics aren't working, the Seanchan are doing such and such to negate our advantage." And have it make a meaningful difference in combat.

 

I think the Seanchan would have been more effective if we actually saw them utterly crush an equal sized force led by a competent general. Show it happening rather than just telling us that they're capable of it. Perhaps they defeat a Great Captain - say that Pedron Niall actually took reports of the Seanchan seriously and gathered all the Children to go and fight them, then got utterly smashed through superior tactics. It'd be a far better end than getting shanked.

[csnyder]

I agree with Agitel's statement of the Seanchan's ability to take over large sections of land is based mainly on their enemies being - as they were on the Seanchan continent pre-Luthair - patchy (and within those patches even more patchy). Although an isolated incident, with factors affecting both sides being truly at their most efficient, the Ebou Dar incident shows the equality of both sides as reactionary forces. And before you all claim I am ignoring the fact that Rand was completely surrounded let me state the why. A considerable amount of Rand's army that scene were his bitter enemies hiding behind gilded masks - who knows how many Darkfriend Asha'man were among the Asha'man participating alongside two Darkfriend nobles leading their armies not following orders, as well - WITH the complete lack of his more or less loyal Aiel army. Other than Malden, the Aiel have not participated in any fighting against the Seanchan - and if, for example, the forkroot was not used in Malden that battle could have been devastating to both sides (much akin to the Ebou Dar Border War) - and his Legion and Bashere's calvary have grown considerably, still. The reality of the situation WAS that Rand was surrounded, however the Seanchan had been pushed back and if Rand had not been all iron he would have realized the necessity for reliable troops sooner. Remember, Fortuona now fears Rand - for good reason - her army has only been revamped by 300 or so Wise Ones (+/- several AS that can't fight anyway) where Egwene and the WT, Kin, Windfinders, Borderlanders have now backed Rand. Those who have said that she won't return to Seanchan (with Traveling) may be incorrect, unless if she is ready to lose in order to win in TG.

 

I have to bring this up, as it has appeared to be set up that way; there is no saying Aviendha's ter'angreal tampering makes the visions entirely true (I actually believe that as things stand, that is how the future will be; BUT, that doesn't mean that the situation could take turns for the worse or for the better) yet even if the Seanchan were to complete their conquering of Randland they have failed at Falme AND at Ebou Dar (as did Rand) making their claim to be 'Ever Victorious' not entirely true. Additionally, the Seanchan as Seanchan mentality is changing; there is no saying what new form the Seanchan as a solidarity will take even if they completely take over the continent.

 

Lastly, was there any supersition that rose among the Seanchan once Hawkwing rode against them in the Battle at Falme?