Is ever victorious army a myth?

[David Selig]

Ya, the Seanchan do seem to be almost as bad as the Trollocs in their ability to get a couple hundred thousand soldiers slain and not have their numbers really diminish any, but at least the Trollocs can pull replacements out of the portal stones.

 

I got thi from the wiki so I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I would assume that each village wouldnt have more than a few hundred people, so I don't understand how the two rivers could field aa forcemof three thousand bowman. that is weird.

http://wot.wikia.com...attle_of_Malden

the two rivers to start with likely had about 50 thousand people. of course the towns were small, most of the people would be farmers living on their farms. but when you add the influx of refugies from arad doman and beyond you can quickly add another hundred thousand, and make sense of emonds field starting to become a city. and yes a force of 3 thousand bowmen out of a culture of farmers and hunters that number 50 thousand or even if you reduce it to 20 thousand wouldn't be unheard of even in real history (where do you think england's first longbowmen came from, and that force was more than a thousand) keep in mind the first chapters of the whole series, being a good shot with a longbow was important to every boy in the two rivers. so them fielding 3000 longbows isnt a big suprise. after the refugies they even add other hunters who use different bows.

50 thousand to start? That's way too much, the Two Rivers consisted of 4 villages at the start (not towns).

 

Faile noted in the LoC prologue "they did find refugees nearly every day, ten here, twenty there, five somewhere else", which is an awful lot less than what would be required to get 100 000 new denizens of Two Rivers in a year or so.

[muddasssir]

Still, even if they get 1:2 numerical superiority they still have a huge tactical drawback. A circle of thirteen or may be even 27 can blast a swath the size Rand blasts through trollocs and they can have another circle standing around doing nothing except waiting for damanes to show their face and snuff them out. they can have two, three, four or any number of circles waiting doing nothing else. All they need is one good weaver per circle and that is it. How can you lose any battle from there. I mean history is replete with such examples but you can lose battles like that not war.

[Simpleman2012]

The million strong Seanchan army does have basis in facts.

 

1. During worldwar 2, western concept of troop transportation takes into account of welfare for its soldiers. Each soldier was given space with lockers,even with double deckers, access to air and ventilation, with sanitary amenities and even places for dining.

 

Compared to the Imperial Japan Army, where the japanese soldier sits is his space. He will sleep, write, eat, bowel movement on that same spot using buckets within that cargo hold. They were tightly compact and as such, massive amounts of troops were transported to support their conquest campaign of China, Asia and the attempt at Australia.

 

The soldiers do not complain. Their discipline stemmed from centuries of serfdom and rabid worship/loyalty to their Emperor, much similiar to the fictional Seanchan.

 

 

Furthermore, with the Forsaken Semirhage, a master of mind control, advisor of the High Lady Surouth, discipling of troops for the long journey should not be problem with weaves taught by her to the sul dammes and performed upon the troops. In our current age of embarkation upon neuroscience, reports of men not eating for years, and even recent report of a man surviving buring under snow for months are cases whereby mind does have the capability to control the body.

 

 

2. The Seanchan army had a critical asset - drakhars, air control. The drakhars are capable of transporting troops and material, and most vitally, has the ability to scout terrorities over the vast oceans. It cannot be presumed that there are no island or island chains between Seanchanland and Randland.

 

From those islands, bases can be built using material supplied by the drakhars, with water and food being supplied to the Seanchan army and colonists ships.

 

 

3. Robert Jordan is a veteran of the Vietnam war, and most of those battles equally do have basis on facts. During Vietnam war, American air power thought that they could end the supply of troops and material from the North Vietnamese army to the South, by destroying the Hanoi roadway link and any vehicles there.

 

Unfortunately, the Vietnamese human ingenuity came into play. Instead of mounting troops upon transport, most of them walked on slippers through dense forest to consolidate with the troops. Special human mules by the thousands did the same to transport ammunition and supplies. Each of those human mules walked thousand of miles carrying just one mortar or ammo cans on their backs, surviving off the land, walking from North to the South, and then back again, several times during the 10 year war.

 

It is not enough in the attempt to gain knowledge just solely by western concepts, or any single one concept, but upon studying every concept written, and only then can knowledge be gained.

 

Therefore, although the Seanchan army is fictional, it does have basis of facts based even upon our current age, and needs no leap of belief. Afterall, Robert Jordan is a man of science himself, with a degree in Physics.

[Suttree]

2. The Seanchan army had a critical asset - drakhars, air control. The drakhars are capable of transporting troops and material, and most vitally, has the ability to scout terrorities over the vast oceans. It cannot be presumed that there are no island or island chains between Seanchanland and Randland.

 

From those islands, bases can be built using material supplied by the drakhars, with water and food being supplied to the Seanchan army and colonists ships.

 

Think you mean raken and to'raken. Of the two only to'raken can transport numbers/cargo. They can carry a thousand pounds up to 200 miles...

 

As for Semi, she was a sadist that specialized in healing the brain, Granedal was the one that excelled at compulsion. There is no evidence whatsoever to show she had the damane using some sort of mass weaves on the troops.

[Agitel]

Still, even if they get 1:2 numerical superiority they still have a huge tactical drawback. A circle of thirteen or may be even 27 can blast a swath the size Rand blasts through trollocs and they can have another circle standing around doing nothing except waiting for damanes to show their face and snuff them out. they can have two, three, four or any number of circles waiting doing nothing else. All they need is one good weaver per circle and that is it. How can you lose any battle from there. I mean history is replete with such examples but you can lose battles like that not war.

 

I'm sure the Seanchan can and will adapt to such tactics.

[SuperFade]

I'm sure the Seanchan can and will adapt to such tactics.

 

What do they have in their arsenal that could match up with full linked Circles? Particularly if those Circles incorporated male channelers and were focused through angreal and sangreal. Damane are the most powerful weapon the Seanchan can field and even they would be overwhelmed by not being able to link. I can't think of a way that the Seanchan could work around such a massive disparity in power. The only tactic that might work would be Travelling in a suicide squad of Bloodknives, and there are an extremely limited number of them available.

[Sharaman]

Xerxes took an army numbering several hundred thousand (plus the navy, camp followers and logistic support required) to Greece with far lower levels of tech than the Seanchan possessed.

Yes, the large circles that AS and Windfinders, Aiel can put together could devastate the Seanchan - but don't forget Chanellers aren't the only weapons in battle. The thing both Rodel and Mat respected about the EVA is that they learn from defeat and they institutionalise that learning. BBTW it isn't clear what happens if a member of Circle is bumped off (by say, a sniper with a crossbow). it could prove to be affective tactic if it disrupts the Circle or its flows even temporarily.

[Maleshub]

If Fortuona uses Traveling to regain control of Seanchan, the Randlands not under Seanchan control only hope is to hold to the Dragon's peace (if that is how it is played out). They cannot match the Seanchan demographics or military prowess, even with circles. It will be a long and bloody war, like Aviendha's visions in Rhuidean. But in the end, the Seanchan will have the capabilities and resources for a final victory.

 

I hate saying that; but I believe it.

[master]

the two rivers to start with likely had about 50 thousand people. of course the towns were small, most of the people would be farmers living on their farms. but when you add the influx of refugies from arad doman and beyond you can quickly add another hundred thousand, and make sense of emonds field starting to become a city. and yes a force of 3 thousand bowmen out of a culture of farmers and hunters that number 50 thousand or even if you reduce it to 20 thousand wouldn't be unheard of even in real history (where do you think england's first longbowmen came from, and that force was more than a thousand) keep in mind the first chapters of the whole series, being a good shot with a longbow was important to every boy in the two rivers. so them fielding 3000 longbows isnt a big suprise. after the refugies they even add other hunters who use different bows.

 

wait, you are comparing england to the two rivers. is that a joke? becuase I am fairly certain that england had a lot more than four small villages. lets see what they did have in the hundred years war.

 

Although not a direct measure of population, the lay subsidy records of 1334 can be used as a measure of both a settlement's size and stature and the table gives the 30 largest towns and cities in England according to that report.^[5] The lay subsidy, an early form of poll tax, however, omitted a sizeable proportion of the population.

In 1377 the first true poll tax was levied in which everyone over the age of 14 who was not exempt was required to pay a groat to the Crown. The records taken listed the name and location of everyone who paid the tax and so give an excellent measure of the population at the time, although assumptions need to be made about the proportion of the population who were under 14, generally taken to be around a third.^[5][6]

 

All population values given in each of the tables below must therefore be taken as an estimate

 

1377^[5]

Rank Town Pop'n 1 London 23314 2 York 7248 3 Bristol 6345 4 Coventry 4817 5 Norwich 3952 6 Lincoln 3569 7 Salisbury 3226 8 King's Lynn 3217 9 Colchester 2955 10 Boston 2871 11 Beverley 2663 12 Newcastle 2647 13 Canterbury 2574 14 Bury St Edmunds 2445 15 Oxford 2357 16 Gloucester 2239 17 Leicester 2101 18 Shrewsbury 2083 19 Great Yarmouth 1941 20 Hereford 1903 21 Cambridge 1902 22 Ely 1772 23 Plymouth 1700 24 Exeter 1560 25 Hull 1557 26 Worcester 1557 27 Ipswich 1507 28 Northampton 1477 29 Nottingham 1447 30 Winchester 1440

 

http://en.wikipedia....edieval_England

 

so they had twenty six more than the two rivers. and these are only the largest. towns. I assume that the wheel of time has higher tech, but I'm fairly certain that a pop of a thousand would label anything at least a town. now this doesnt include country populations where the longbowmen would come from, but since middleage pop ratios between rural and urban were about.

 

 

 

 

 

How urban was medieval England?

 

 

 

by Christopher Dyer

 

 

Medieval England is usually described as overwhelmingly rural. The vast majority of the population - nine-tenths or an even higher proportion - are said to have lived off the land as peasants or rural labourers, and those with power and influence, both lay lords and churchmen, drew their wealth from the broad acres of their country estates. This rural picture is imprinted in our minds by literary images like Piers Plowman sowing his half acre, and Robin Hood roaming in the greenwood. But these characters were part of a medieval rural myth.

 

 

http://www.questia.c...ocId=5000399126

 

so I'm guessing the rural population of england was what, roughly four or five hundred thousand people. maybe more.

 

 

and they only had six thousand men at agincourt. while perrin could field two thousand bowmen with aa population of twenty thousand. that makes a lot of sense.

 

If the two rivers has a pop higher than five thousand I'd be very surprised.

[SuperFade]

Xerxes took an army numbering several hundred thousand (plus the navy, camp followers and logistic support required) to Greece with far lower levels of tech than the Seanchan possessed.

 

There are several things wrong with this comparison. Firstly the actual number of troops Xerxes had is impossible to gauge - Herodotus claims it was more than five million, Ctesias says it was 'only' 800,000 whilst Simonides claims it was four million. Since the Persians didn't have a written culture at that point we don't have any sources from them on the matter. That's the problem with sources - you can't ever take them at face value because they are guaranteed to be exaggerated, particularly regarding things that cannot be quantified at a glance like troop numbers. In any event the Persian invasion was unprecedented and only accomplished via mass conscription from every single province in the Empire.

 

Secondly, Xerxes crossed into Greece by crossing the Hellespont, which is several orders of magnitude smaller than the Arryth Ocean. They also used floating bridges rather than ships. Regardless of the method used though many of Xerxes's troops died of disease without ever seeing combat, which is another thing we rarely see in the WoT. Hundreds of thousands of people travelling together on ships along with animals in close quarters are going to fall ill extremely quickly, particularly when the journey is months long even with damane-driven winds.

 

 

Yes, the large circles that AS and Windfinders, Aiel can put together could devastate the Seanchan - but don't forget Chanellers aren't the only weapons in battle. The thing both Rodel and Mat respected about the EVA is that they learn from defeat and they institutionalise that learning. BBTW it isn't clear what happens if a member of Circle is bumped off (by say, a sniper with a crossbow). it could prove to be affective tactic if it disrupts the Circle or its flows even temporarily.

 

Would a Circle really be left undefended though? The Aes Sedai would have their Warders for protection at the very least and if it was an all-out war with the Seanchan I doubt they would simply be left alone without any mundane soldiers to protect them.

[James al'Dylan]

The Mary Rose, which sunk near Portsmouth in 1546 was a carrick and would typically have around 450-500 people on board. Contrary to popular belief it didn't sink because it was overloaded, but because it's gun ports were open and a later modification made it unstable. Later Spanish galleons were bigger still, and I see these as the type of ships that would have crossed the Aryth Ocean. During the Spanish Armarda, there were 22 galleons and around 100 merchant vessels (carrick types likely). In total around half the ships were scuttled or destroyed (by storms mainly). They think that around 20,000 were killed and maybe 10,000 made it back to Spain. Given that Spain is a relatively small country compared to Seanchan, I don't see it as impossible to bring 500,000 across. Especially as they've got the resources of an entire continent and don't have to carry cannon.

[SuperFade]

There are some good points being made on both sides. Just to elaborate here are the reasons I find the total success of the Return to be highly implausible:

 

 

Lots of people have brought up the fact that historically it was possible to build ships capable of carrying hundreds of passengers. That's fine - presumably these ships were constructed specially for the Return and so would be capable of transporting people across the ocean. But there are still problems. If we assume that all the ships can carry 500 people (Which I doubt for reasons I'm going to explain below), and that there are 500,000 Seanchan on board, that means that at the very least there must be a thousand ships (Which I also doubt). Similar ships IRL take about 4 years to make and require dedicated builders, supplies of good timber and a large amount of resources. The Seanchan are an enormous empire, but even so building all those ships would take at least a lifetime. And once those ships were finished, what would they do with them? If they leave them moored the wood will rot and they'll have to start over. If they drydock them all they'll probably need to build more docks which will also make the whole thing take longer.

 

But lets say that the Seanchan manage to accomplish this. They use some hitherto unseen damane technique to make sure the wood doesn't rot, or they drydock all their ships until they're ready to sail. There are still problems with the journey itself. In order to get to Randland, the Seanchan need to cross the Aryth Ocean. WoT Wiki tells me that it's the largest ocean in the WoT world. That's pretty vague and to my knowledge there are no exact measurements to tell us how big it actually is. The largest ocean IRL is the Pacific Ocean, which Wikipedia tells me is 19,800 Km at its maximum. Magellan's crossing of the Pacific took more than three months and the seas were very calm throughout his journey, so lets assume the damane can tame the winds and waves and go with that number for a moment.

 

A three month journey means that the Seanchan need enough food and fresh water to supply all 500,000 of their travellers for that length of time. And it's not just them either - they also have thousands of animals to take care of as well which also need feeding. All that cargo, along with weapons, armor, the personal posessions of the civilians, siege engines and whatever else they took will take up a massive amount of space. So unless those 500 passengers are okay with being horribly cramped it simply isn't going to fit. They're going to need more than a thousand ships, probably twice as many. That means that they're going to need twice as much time to build them, with all the requisite problems of rot and drydocking and such.

 

Lets assume that's not a problem, and that every port in the empire is working overtime for decades, forgoing trade and travel to work on building enough ships to facilitate the Return. They have enough ships and enough space on them to store everything. But there's still another problem I mentioned in my last post - disease. Conditions on ships in the middle ages was poor at the best of times - there were rats and insects everywhere and disease was a big problem. An outbreak of cholera or dysentry could spread quickly due to the confined environment of a ship. If you have lots of people in close contact with each other and animals for months at a time they will inevitably get sick. How about scurvy? Were the Seanchan seafaring enough to know about it, and did they know how to stop it? As far as I can remember there is no mention of any of this being a problem for the Seanchan in the text. They can't even use damane for healing due to the stigma attached to them. Unless they had some super-herbalists on board who used miracle cures that would turn Nynaeve's head.

 

Or maybe I'm thinking about this way too hard.

[Mr Ares]

Still, even if they get 1:2 numerical superiority they still have a huge tactical drawback. A circle of thirteen or may be even 27 can blast a swath the size Rand blasts through trollocs and they can have another circle standing around doing nothing except waiting for damanes to show their face and snuff them out. they can have two, three, four or any number of circles waiting doing nothing else. All they need is one good weaver per circle and that is it. How can you lose any battle from there. I mean history is replete with such examples but you can lose battles like that not war.

Circles are undoubtedly useful, but hardly an insurmountable advantage. A circle essentially turns several channelers into one. The others are left without the Power in terms of self defence. Therefore it should be possible to hit and run, wear down the numbers of channelers in the circle and therefore weaken it. A circle can hit really hard at one point, harder than any but the strongest individual could manage, but individuals could strike simultaenously at numerous different points. Less a hammer blow, more of a death by a thousand cuts. Then, when sufficiently weakened, you bring your own hammer down on the remaining circle. Large circles would require you adapt your tactics to suit the circumstances - institutionally, there is no-one better equipped to do such than the Seanchan. Large circles are not some sort of instant win button. It is a helpful technique, a tactic, and it can be countered. You don't even need numerical superiority to do it.

[Agitel]

The wot wiki doesn't source it's claim that the Aryth Ocean is larger than the Morenal. The Aryth Ocean is literally the Atlantic. The Morenal is literally the Pacific. Perhaps the continents have continued to drift and the Aryth widened while the Morenal narrowed. I can't say. But I'd be interested in seeing a source for that claim. The world map with its scale in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time would have us believe that the Aryth Ocean is nearly 9,000 miles across. That's just not realistic and I always just understood that to be a flaw in the map.

[SuperFade]

The Aryth Ocean is literally the Atlantic. The Morenal is literally the Pacific.

 

Even if the theory that WoT is literally our world in the future is true, the Breaking raised new mountains and created new seas. I honestly don't think they can be thought of as the same oceans anymore, if they actually were to begin with.

 

 

The world map with its scale in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time would have us believe that the Aryth Ocean is nearly 9,000 miles across. That's just not realistic and I always just understood that to be a flaw in the map.

 

Wikipedia cites Encyclopedia Brittanica as saying that at its maximum the Pacific Ocean is 12,300 miles across, so it actually is possible.

[Barid Bel Medar]

A few points to consider in regards to the Seanchan domination of the Westlands, in addition to what Mr. Ares said.

 

1. Seanchan now have gateways, putting aside the debate of the number of people available by ship for the moment (i will add something about this later) this means that in theory, the whole of seanchan would be available to them, which would put their numbers in at least the millions, if not up to 10 million (i cannot accurately say, since there is no info on population density etc...) but I think a conservative amount would be around 3million fighting fit soldiers.

r

2. The whole of the Westlands, at the time, would be dramatically depleted due to the Last Battle. The AIel especially are in for a real hammering if we can count on the "remnant of a remnant" will survive, not to mention the injuries that would put a fair number out of combat. So the original estimate of 400,000 (which I think it a bit high, but oh well) would at least, by another conservative estimate, be reduced to 200, 000. The seanchan would also suffer losses, however, with the bulk of their people still being on the mainland Seanchan, they would not be as dramatically depleted as the westlands forces. Also, the outbreak of the new war was not until at least 1-2 generations later, which may boost the Aiel numbers again, but it would also mean the Seanchan, along with the westland nations they already have under their control, would be pretty solidly re-enforced by then.

 

3. The Seanchan possess far more channelers than the westlands. The largest institute of channelers, the White Tower, only had until recently around 1000 trained Aes Sedai. The Wise Ones similarly would probably have around 3000 channelers, most of these would not be strong enough in the power to do any serious damage. Add that fact that the damane are specifically trained for war and that, by all accounts, outnumber the westland channelers at least 4:1 considering the size of Seanchan and using the Return as a ratio of channelers,

 

4. Circles do not "add up" the total power of those involved in it, so it is not simply a 4x multiplier in a circle of 4, although they would be at a distinct advantage linked, it would not be as dramatically high as estimated.

 

5. Channelers cannot fight for extened periods of time. Rand was utterly wasted after his molestation of the trollocs at Maradon, and that is the Dragon Reborn, so I don't think his acts would be comparable to even a circle. It was not so much the amount of power he used, I believe, as opposed to the skill and technique he used from his memories as Lews Therin, so even if they did create a circle large enough to supply that power, it does not mean they would be able to use that effective a weapon, as we can see all to well how inefficient the Aes Sedai have been at channeling, specifically regarding combat.

 

6. A continuation of point 5 regarding channelers becomming exhausted. Remember that this war was not simply a battle royale, Seanchan v Aiel, it was a long, hard fight lasting at least 50 probably over 100 years (several generations are seen in Avi's vision). So power alone would not be a big factor really. The westland channelers could not simple bombard the seanchan with fireballs until they all died, the damane would be providing as much cover (shields and deflecting the fireballs or whatever) as well as launching their own attacks, so the Aes Sedai would not be free to simply walk around setting fire to everything.

 

There is also the point about food and supply which has been used to argue the seanchan fleets improbability, I do not contest this fact, as I do not know enough about boats and the like to comment, however, the Seanchan, with Travelling, would have access to their mainland and the supplies there, while the Aiel etc, would only have access to the far smaller area of the westlands, and they would not be able to draw from everywhere, because of other nations needing the food, along with the fact that the Seanchan advance would raise crops and farmland while their own remained relatively untouched.

 

I could go on, but I think these points cover enough to show that Seanchan victory is pretty certain, and if not that, then at least plausible.

[muddasssir]

I specifically mentioned other circles waiting for channelers they are not taking part in the battle. their role is to neutralize damanes. With Damanes taken out of equation they can have their own channelers let loose with no fear of repercussion. A condition similar to landing of allied forces on Normandy beach. With absence of Wehrmacht Allied air forces had a free run. they could pound Nazi forces mercilessly without any kind of repercussions. Also, you are ignoring that Seanchan are used to fighting with advantage of damanes on their side. they are not going to deal very well with shoe on the other foot.

[Suttree]

Rand was utterly wasted after his molestation of the trollocs at Maradon,

 

That was awesome...possibly sig worthy.

[SuperFade]

Rand was utterly wasted after his molestation of the trollocs at Maradon,

 

That was awesome...possibly sig worthy.

 

I don't think anything can top Dida, though.

[Agitel]

The Aryth Ocean is literally the Atlantic. The Morenal is literally the Pacific.

 

Even if the theory that WoT is literally our world in the future is true, the Breaking raised new mountains and created new seas. I honestly don't think they can be thought of as the same oceans anymore, if they actually were to begin with.

 

The general continents are still there. I've mapped the changes that occurred during the Breaking and was able to see how Jordan adapted real maps in the world of the Third Age. The westlands, the Aiel Waste, the Termool and Shara are what's left of Eurasia and North Africa. Much of the continent of Africa was destroyed, though my understanding is that a large network of islands still exist and is what gave rise to the Sea Folk. Southern Africa was "expanded" into the Land of Madmen. Seanchan is a much torn apart north and south America. The primary oceans are still the same. We may be able to assume that the Atlantic/Aryth is wider than it is now.

 

http://s963.photobuc...s/ae117/Agitel/

 

For reference. There are a few changes that could probably be made for this pictures but they illustrate the basics well enough. I'd rather not clog up the topic with another geography discussion on the Breaking, though.

 

However, on the oceans, one interesting quote we can use is that the Land of Madmen is roughly the same distance away from the southern coast of the westlands as Seanchan is from the western coast. About 8,000 miles south of the coast of the westlands is the southpole.

 

So I'm going to call the 9,000 mile estimate on the world map a mistake.

[muddasssir]

That is the whole purpose of the circle. individual strength does not matter. Look at Egwene's defense of Wt. She could barely channel and she destroyed the Seanchan force almost single handed. Also Wise ones will not have any compunctions in using OP as a weapon unlike AS therefore they are going to do better than As did at Wt raid. Last everyone is conveniently forgetting the rebellion that is taking place at Main land Seanchan. They are not going to be able to walk in and walk out with supplies, troops and weapons.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Rand was utterly wasted after his molestation of the trollocs at Maradon,

 

That was awesome...possibly sig worthy.

 

I don't think anything can top Dida, though.

 

Ha. Feel free to use it if you want, but I have to agree, Dida did come up with some particularly great phrases.

 

 

 

I specifically mentioned other circles waiting for channelers they are not taking part in the battle. their role is to neutralize damanes. With Damanes taken out of equation they can have their own channelers let loose with no fear of repercussion. A condition similar to landing of allied forces on Normandy beach. With absence of Wehrmacht Allied air forces had a free run. they could pound Nazi forces mercilessly without any kind of repercussions. Also, you are ignoring that Seanchan are used to fighting with advantage of damanes on their side. they are not going to deal very well with shoe on the other foot.

 

Even if they use this type of cycle of channeling, it is still not as simple as that. How would they simply "neutralize" the damane force more than half their size, while protecting themselves and allies while fending off multiple attacks. Travelling also comes into play. The Seanchan could attack the "waiting" channelers from all sides, ambush those fighting with superior numbers, simply rushing a channeling squad with a few thousand men deposited 10m from them through a Gateway. It is hardly comparable to the Allied air forces. First of all, Channelers are hardly jet planes. As mentioned, they tire quite fast. I can't even believe that a bombardment would be compared to human channelers.

 

 

IN regards to the Seanchan rebellion, note that I said that this theoretical war takes place at least 20-50 years after the LB. The Outriggers planned by RJ were about Tuon and Mat supressing said rebellion, around 5-10 years after TG, thus giving them at least 10-40 years to build up.

 

You also seem to forget that Egwene had the most powerful sa'angreal in the White Tower in her hands while knocking the Seanchan about. This is probably about the equivalent strength of at least the combined strength of 3/4 of the white tower. Thus, sa'angreal aside, the strength of the channelers is far less than you seem to credit them. Before it is mentioned, yes, the sa'angreal would help an bunch, along with Callandor if it survives, however, since we cannot effectively judge how many, if indeed any, angreal the seanchan have access to, it cannot be an advantage, as they could have access to thousands of powerful angreal in theory (although I doubt this, it cannot be used as proof the Aes Sedai would overpower them)

[Agitel]

You also seem to forget that Egwene had the most powerful sa'angreal in the White Tower in her hands while knocking the Seanchan about. This is probably about the equivalent strength of at least the combined strength of 3/4 of the white tower. Thus, sa'angreal aside, the strength of the channelers is far less than you seem to credit them. Before it is mentioned, yes, the sa'angreal would help an bunch, along with Callandor if it survives, however, since we cannot effectively judge how many, if indeed any, angreal the seanchan have access to, it cannot be an advantage, as they could have access to thousands of powerful angreal in theory (although I doubt this, it cannot be used as proof the Aes Sedai would overpower them)

 

During Mat's Healing in tDR, Nynaeve says that "she doesn't think she could channel half that much power" in reference to ten Aes Sedai in a circle with the lead using that sa'angreal. That is, Nynaeve at less than her full potential thinks she could handle nearly half as much power as ten linked Aes Sedai using the most powerful sa'angreal in the White Tower.

 

That sa'angreal is strong. Without her power dampened by forkroot Egwene is as strong as Nynaeve (due to her forcing, Nynaeve still has a higher potential), but she was dampaned in that fight and using that sa'angreal. Anyway, my point is that the sa'angreal isn't as strong as you make it out to be.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You also seem to forget that Egwene had the most powerful sa'angreal in the White Tower in her hands while knocking the Seanchan about. This is probably about the equivalent strength of at least the combined strength of 3/4 of the white tower. Thus, sa'angreal aside, the strength of the channelers is far less than you seem to credit them. Before it is mentioned, yes, the sa'angreal would help an bunch, along with Callandor if it survives, however, since we cannot effectively judge how many, if indeed any, angreal the seanchan have access to, it cannot be an advantage, as they could have access to thousands of powerful angreal in theory (although I doubt this, it cannot be used as proof the Aes Sedai would overpower them)

 

During Mat's Healing in tDR, Nynaeve says that "she doesn't think she could channel half that much power" in reference to ten Aes Sedai in a circle with the lead using that sa'angreal. That is, Nynaeve at less than her full potential thinks she could handle nearly half as much power as ten linked Aes Sedai using the most powerful sa'angreal in the White Tower.

 

That sa'angreal is strong. Without her power dampened by forkroot Egwene is as strong as Nynaeve (due to her forcing, Nynaeve still has a higher potential), but she was dampaned in that fight and using that sa'angreal. Anyway, my point is that the sa'angreal isn't as strong as you make it out to be.

 

Ahh, you are correct it seems. I wasn't sure but I remember some sa'angreal being as powerful as most of the channelers in the WT, I guess it must have been referencing the CK. Oh well. That both helps and hinders my point. Although, one could argue that this was simply a turn of phrase used by Nynaeve and not a comparable strength indication, however, since there is really no way to know, I will assume the worst case scenario and say you are correct.

 

So, Egwene did well with not as much power as I first estimated, the point I was making was that it was hardly her "not being able to channel a drop". She was still at least 2x her normal strength with the sa'angreal, added with the fact she was aided by a few novices.

 

Even if the power of the Aes Sedai/Wise Ones etc... is overwhelming the Seanchan, and that they theoretically could just blow the Seanchan off the westlands, I can compile a whole list of possible tactics used to overcome the proposed attack the Aiel etc would use. And that would be just me, I am sure the whole seanchan state including actual real military generals would have thousands more ideas than me. But if you are still not convinced, I will make a list of the possibilities.

[SuperFade]

However, on the oceans, one interesting quote we can use is that the Land of Madmen is roughly the same distance away from the southern coast of the westlands as Seanchan is from the western coast. About 8,000 miles south of the coast of the westlands is the southpole.

 

So I'm going to call the 9,000 mile estimate on the world map a mistake.

 

Could you elaborate further? Because I'm not seeing a problem. The Pacific Ocean is actually shrinking even now due to plate tectonics whilst the Atlantic is getting wider. The references to our world are vague enough that I'm still not convinced that they are actual evidence rather than a sly wink at the readers. Unless RJ directly confirmed it somewhere I'm going to chalk it up to him simply using maps as a reference to design his world.

 

Anyway, having actually got out a ruler and measured the differing distances, I came up with a 5 cm length (6000 miles approx.) between the Westlands and the north coast of the LoM and a 9 cm (10,000 miles approx.) distance between the Westlands and the Seanchan continent. It's approximate due to the irregular coasts but there is a significant difference between them.

 

If the scale is wrong then there's no point in continuing because nothing regarding the journey can be proven or disproven. If it's right then the Seanchan's journey with zero mortality from disease is simply not possible.