Gawyn is a murderer!

[Alric]

^ I don't think I called it murder, I just said it was wrong and that he had enough knowledge to be able to figure out he should stay out of it instead of willingly engage. Not sure if that was directed at me though. Clearly he rationalized it in one way or another, even though he probably knew that his emotions got the better of him.

 

The "ultimately it led to [everything good that happened later]" argument just doesn't work, neither as a defense or as a rationalization of people's motives. RJ dishes out punishment to practically everyone who does ethically reprehensible things, no matter how it helped the Light in the end.

 

I can't remember the exact wording of what happened with the warders, but since we know that the BA was involved, I wouldn't necessarily bet that it was Siuan's supporters who first drew blood. Gawyn says that Siuan has been declared BA, and we know they killed her warder. I think that makes it fair to assume that her allies were attacked, which would not really leave them with much choice. In fact, considering that declaration I would guess some of them figured out that they were indeed fighting a real BA plot.

 

 

[Kudzu]

When you're throwing around words like "murder," then what the law says about it is absolutely relevant. If the law says it's murder, it's murder. If the law says it's not murder, it's not murder. Now, if the question is whether Gawyn should feel guilty and lose sleep at night for having killed Hammar and Coulin, then of course he should, and I believe the books portray that he does. But he was personally, politically and professionally justified in having done it; that he could have been perhaps equally personally justified in not having done it is irrelevant. Was it the right thing to do? Well, it helped lead to the Tower split, and ultimately to Egwene as Amryllin. That's better than either Elaida or Suian continuing as Amryllin, and considering the other choices of Aes Sedai we have to possibly be the Amryllin, probably the best possible outcome, which doesn't say much for the Aes Sedai. If Hammar and Coulin and their allies had succeeded in rescuing Suian and Leane, they would have had little reason to choose other leaders, even if Suian and co. left Tar Valon to organize opposition elsewhere.

 

What I never understood about that whole rebellion thing was how Suian's supposed infractions were severe enough to warrant stilling and execution. Removal from office I can understand. She hid her knowledge of the identity of the Dragon Reborn and allowed him to walk free when she had him in her grasp. I'm sure the Hall was livid with her, and rightly so, but she didn't betray the Tower or any of the Sisters in it. She took a discretionary act that was arguably within her authority to make. This was a mere political disagreement, and the consequences of losing that argument should never have included stilling and execution. There wasn't even a trial, just a clandestine meeting of the Hall to pull her down. Still, none of this justifies Hammar and Coulin trying to rescue the former Amryllin and her Keeper through use of force, instead of taking their concerns to Sisters or through the Hall.

 

Wasn't Suian deposed because of the fabricated accusation that she orchestrated Mazrim Taim's escape? I didn't think it had anything to do with Rand (at least not publicly).

Edited March 7, 2012 by Kudzu

[Thrasymachus]

Wasn't Suian deposed because of the fabricated accusation that she orchestrated Mazrim Taim's escape? I didn't think it had anything to do with Rand (at least not publicly).

 

Not according to the Wheel of Time wiki, the dispute was specifically about Suian letting a man who she knows can channel go when she met him in, I think it was Fal Dara, never mind that he was the Dragon Reborn. And because he is the DR, Elaida argues that that made it even more imperative that he be taken in. I wish I had copies of those earlier books to look it up.

 

And yes, Alric, you're right, you never called it murder, the OP did. You have called it slaughter, however, and have argued that Gawyn made a deeply immoral mistake that he should have known at the time was a mistake. I agree that Gawyn's a self-centered, traitorous jerk who's made many "mistakes," but his fighting against Hammar and Coulin was not one of those. For one thing, he was trying to prevent an illegal rescue attempt; in itself, a defensive act. He wasn't the aggressor, the Warders were. For another thing, he's First Prince of the Sword, brother to the Daughter Heir of Andor. Failing to help maintain the established legal authority of Tar Valon, especially when he had the means and opportunity to help, would risk cooling relations between the White Tower and Andor, which had always before been strong allies. He had ample justification for the acts he took in opposing the Warder's rescue attempt and no reason at all to aid them or even stand aside and let them rescue the, as far as he knew, legally deposed Amryllin.

 

Gawyn has been shown to regret having to kill Hammar and Coulin, but that is the way he thinks of it, as having had to do it. And he's not wrong, given the events of the day, what he knows about what's going on, and his duties to his country as a representative of their nation in Tar Valon at the least, even ignoring any duties he might be said to have to the White Tower itself. Now, Gawyn is still a treasonous jerk. He commits treason against the Tower, and in light of their relationship with Andor, potentially Andor as well, by later aiding in Suian's and Leane's escape. He abandons the Younglings when he learns that Egwene is the Amryllin to the rebels. And he abandons Egwene after demonstrating that he can't follow any orders she gives him or respect her as Amryllin. He is a badass with a sword though.

[Alric]

I actually don't disagree with most of what you say, but I simply think he knew enough and that that's supported in the text.

 

But I guess we're kind of moving in circles here and that it would be better to let people pick up new aspects of this for new insights rather than to go on about things we can't prove definitely one way or the other. 

 

 

[Sunrise Lord]

I think it was all part of the DO's plan to sow chaos, the whole Suain being deposed and the Warders fighting each other. I remember one of the Forsaken, either Graendal or Semirhage, thinking to themselves about the Salidar AS, and how they were part of the plan to cause chaos in the world. Don't have the book with me atm, so I don't have a specific quote.

[csnyder]

I think most of the blame of the split can be simply put as the machinations of Fain.

Ultimately (and luckily), all worked out for the better -

 

Gawyn finally coming to heel (albeit a rather precarious heel),

 

Elaida in the hands of the Seanchan could give the Seanchan much of what they need to procure the Crystal Throne (if we are to assume that it is the actual throne rather the leader herself) and perhaps Fortuona's entire empire(or else how is Rand supposed to reasonably kneel to the blasted thing),

 

Siuan, Leane, Min and Logain escaped to perform their part in goading the rebel AS/setting up Logain as the counter-M'Hael of the asha'man/Min acting as a buffer between Aviendha and Elayne to allow for even the idea of the possibility for polygamy (if she and Elayne never had their heart-to-heart, perhaps Elayne would not have bid Aviendha welcome),

 

Galad's separation from the politics of the Tower ultimately sent him to the Whitecloaks, etc.

 

- however, as the time immediately after the Split was considered (civil) wartime at best, it is hard to consider the killings of his teachers as flat-out murder. I am pretty sure if it wasn't those two it would have been Gawyn himself, the fact is is that the only on-screen and pronounced killings (via Siuan's POV and post-stilling Healing) were done by Gawyn despite their being considerably more casualties than this.

[Thrasymachus]

I actually don't disagree with most of what you say, but I simply think he knew enough and that that's supported in the text.

 

But I guess we're kind of moving in circles here and that it would be better to let people pick up new aspects of this for new insights rather than to go on about things we can't prove definitely one way or the other. 

Knew enough to what? Know that he was making a mistake? I disagree. He could not have known what side of the political conflict Elayne and Egwene would have taken, or even that they would have taken a side, being Accepted at the time. As far as he was aware, the Hall of the Tower, not Elaida, pulled down Suian, and then the Hall raised Elaida to Amryllin. How he felt about Elaida was irrelevant to his duties. Moreover, it was not a mistake. Gawyn did not act wrongly in defending the Tower against the rescue attempt by the Warders. Suian deserved to be deposed for how she handled both the Dragon and the Hall, while she may not have deserved stilling and execution or the lifetime of servitude they had planned for her, those further punishments are still within the authority of the Hall to dole out. The Warders had no authority and no right to try to rescue them, and Gawyn has a duty to his own country to help protect Tar Valon and the White Tower. So not only could Gawyn not have known enough about what was going on to know that he was making a mistake in opposing the Warders' rescue attempt, it wasn't a mistake.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Thrasymachus

[Kudzu]

Wasn't Suian deposed because of the fabricated accusation that she orchestrated Mazrim Taim's escape? I didn't think it had anything to do with Rand (at least not publicly).

 

Not according to the Wheel of Time wiki, the dispute was specifically about Suian letting a man who she knows can channel go when she met him in, I think it was Fal Dara, never mind that he was the Dragon Reborn. And because he is the DR, Elaida argues that that made it even more imperative that he be taken in. I wish I had copies of those earlier books to look it up.

 

I was think of this, which is in Chapter 47 of tSR when Min is rescuing them.

 

Siuan' date=' the charges against you claim you and Leane arranged Mazrim Taim's escape. Logain got away during the fighting, and they've blamed that on you too...[/quote']

 

I've no doubt Elaida's motive (aside from being a power hungry lunatic) was to do with the Dragon Reborn. I'm just not sure that was the official charge.

 

Bloody Aes Sedai are so secretive they don't even tell you what you've been charged with when they're deposing and stilling you.

[XXX]

gawyn is morally bankrupt if you ask me. How do you explain killing your own teachers who were trying to free siuan and yet free her yourself when you get the chance.

 

I have always maintained on the battlefield he is a level above his brother. But when it comes to moral behaviour, this kid is screwed in the head

 

I am agreeing with Elan Tedronai..will wonders never cease!!

[XXX]

Gawyn had no idea the BA had been pulling strings in this situation. He had an obligation to the WT as a trainee to stop what he viewed as a traitorous act. Had he known the vote to impeach Siuan was rigged he obviously would have chosen a separate course of action.

 

How did he know the coup which Elaida engineered to dispose Siuan was legal? Most coups in the world are plain illegal.

Edited March 8, 2012 by XXX47

[Thrasymachus]

What happened wasn't a coup, at least in the usually understood sense of that term. It was more like an impeachment. Coups don't follow established precedent and law, what happened to Suian did, though just barely. And when the Hall acts, there is a presumption of the inherent legality of that act. You have to show that the Hall violated previously established law or tradition, without bothering to legislate changes to the law first, in order to have reason to believe that Suian's removal was illegal. In fact, it was not illegal. The requisite number of Sitters were present and voted in the required proportions to remove Suian. Gawyn would have no reason to suspect that Suian's removal was illegal, and every reason to believe that it was legally valid.

[XXX]

What happened wasn't a coup, at least in the usually understood sense of that term. It was more like an impeachment. Coups don't follow established precedent and law, what happened to Suian did, though just barely. And when the Hall acts, there is a presumption of the inherent legality of that act. You have to show that the Hall violated previously established law or tradition, without bothering to legislate changes to the law first, in order to have reason to believe that Suian's removal was illegal. In fact, it was not illegal. The requisite number of Sitters were present and voted in the required proportions to remove Suian. Gawyn would have no reason to suspect that Suian's removal was illegal, and every reason to believe that it was legally valid.

 

If legal..it was barely legal and how did Gawyn know who much it was legal or not?

[Suttree]

What happened wasn't a coup, at least in the usually understood sense of that term. It was more like an impeachment. Coups don't follow established precedent and law, what happened to Suian did, though just barely. And when the Hall acts, there is a presumption of the inherent legality of that act. You have to show that the Hall violated previously established law or tradition, without bothering to legislate changes to the law first, in order to have reason to believe that Suian's removal was illegal. In fact, it was not illegal. The requisite number of Sitters were present and voted in the required proportions to remove Suian. Gawyn would have no reason to suspect that Suian's removal was illegal, and every reason to believe that it was legally valid.

 

If legal..it was barely legal and how did Gawyn know who much it was legal or not?

 

Well technically it was illegal as the bare minimum of sitters were present and the BA cast the deciding vote. Their vote should obviously be invalidated and the impeachment would not have gone through without them.

 

As for Gawyn all he knew was that the Hall had voted, hence it was legal in his eyes. Also important to note it was Mesanna's "workers" that started the fighting further increasing the chaos of the situation. Lastly for those that say Siuan "deserved" it that is not entirely true. Her and Moiraine were forced to go underground due to BA involvement with the killings surrounding the DR's birth.

[Kahsm]

gawyn is morally bankrupt if you ask me. How do you explain killing your own teachers who were trying to free siuan and yet free her yourself when you get the chance.

 

I have always maintained on the battlefield he is a level above his brother. But when it comes to moral behaviour, this kid is screwed in the head

 

I am agreeing with Elan Tedronai..will wonders never cease!!

 

Not sure I agree. While it seems odd he would be so quick to turn on his teachers, his duty, first and foremost, is to Elayne. And Siuan was standing in his way of that, likely putting her in harms way, and not telling him about it. That, to Gawyn, would be inexcusable. And it's not a pride or manly thing, he swore an oath as a child that he takes very seriously -- it's his duty. I doubt many people would bitch if Lan slaughtered a bunch of "good guys" (arguably) to make sure he was at Mori's side when shit was likely going down. But Gawyn can't have the same sense of duty and loyalty?

 

Also, his half-brother Galad would turn on his "friends" in a heartbeat if he felt it was the "right" thing to do. So it's not surprising to find Gawyn would have some of that in him too, if not as prominent.

[zerachiel76]

Gawyn was a Tower trainee. He had some sort of obligation to the Tower as an institution. We are not told the exact nature of the trainees obligation to the Tower, but it almost certainly involved legal duties of some sort, formalized with an oath.

 

The President of the United States is impeached for high crimes, and removed from office by the Congress, which has the legal authority to do so. Certain senior military officers like the current President better than the alternative, and so conspire to unlawfully return the impeached President to power. A West Point cadet discovers this conspiracy and has the ability to stop it. You're claiming he should not do so?

 

Christ, I can't believe you're making me defend Gawyn.

 

I don't agree with the way you're viewing this. Gawyn wasn't a West Point trainee, if anything he was similar to a British (for example as I'm British) soldier who had been sent to West Point as part of a joint training exercise (it's not identical to this I know). When the President is deposed what right does the British soldier have to get involved in the internal politics of another sovereign country without direct orders from his own high command. Since he didn't receive orders from either Morgase (his queen), Elayne (Morgase's representative) or the Captain General of the Andoran Army (whoever it was who replaced Gareth Bryne) he should not have got involved despite having the ability to do so. You can imagine the political ramifications if a British soldier took it on his head to act in the way Gawyn did, while serving alongside US troops in the US.

[randsc]

Gawyn was a Tower trainee. He had some sort of obligation to the Tower as an institution. We are not told the exact nature of the trainees obligation to the Tower, but it almost certainly involved legal duties of some sort, formalized with an oath.

 

The President of the United States is impeached for high crimes, and removed from office by the Congress, which has the legal authority to do so. Certain senior military officers like the current President better than the alternative, and so conspire to unlawfully return the impeached President to power. A West Point cadet discovers this conspiracy and has the ability to stop it. You're claiming he should not do so?

 

Christ, I can't believe you're making me defend Gawyn.

 

I don't agree with the way you're viewing this. Gawyn wasn't a West Point trainee, if anything he was similar to a British (for example as I'm British) soldier who had been sent to West Point as part of a joint training exercise (it's not identical to this I know). When the President is deposed what right does the British soldier have to get involved in the internal politics of another sovereign country without direct orders from his own high command. Since he didn't receive orders from either Morgase (his queen), Elayne (Morgase's representative) or the Captain General of the Andoran Army (whoever it was who replaced Gareth Bryne) he should not have got involved despite having the ability to do so. You can imagine the political ramifications if a British soldier took it on his head to act in the way Gawyn did, while serving alongside US troops in the US.

 

We don't know the exact nature of Gawyn's responsibilities to the Tower. He could have responsibilities more akin to a foriegn enlistee than an exchange student. And not knowing the exact nature of his relationship with the Tower, we can't assume he is interpreting that relationship incorrectly just because he is a prat and we like Siuan.

 

And for your hypothetical British soldier, he would be lauded to the skies in such a circumstance. Do you really believe otherwise?

[Pembie]

I get him mixed up with Glalad so Gawyn isn’t a white cloak does he work for the white tower 

 

What exactly are the white cloaks? What is their purpose to the story and how are they different to younglings just a few things I find confusing 

[thehumantrashcan]

Spoilers for all of the books.

Spoiler

So the younglings are essentially a gang of youth who were training to become warders during the split of the White tower.  They stayed faithful to Elaida.  Then they got screwed over.

 

Whitecloaks serve as a group or army of religious fanatics who are supposed to stand for the Light and Creator without following those witches from the white tower and see anything of the one power as corruptible.  They serve a powerful force for both good and evil, depending on who is leading and a major part of Galad's story as he wishes to continue a worthy path after his disillusionment of the White Tower.  They also serve as an additional force for the last battle thanks to Galad taking it over.

If you have read up to a certain book let me know and I can answer the question based on that.

[Pembie]

47 minutes ago, thehumantrashcan said:

Spoilers for all of the books.

  Hide contents

So the younglings are essentially a gang of youth who were training to become warders during the split of the White tower.  They stayed faithful to Elaida.  Then they got screwed over.

 

Whitecloaks serve as a group or army of religious fanatics who are supposed to stand for the Light and Creator without following those witches from the white tower and see anything of the one power as corruptible.  They serve a powerful force for both good and evil, depending on who is leading and a major part of Galad's story as he wishes to continue a worthy path after his disillusionment of the White Tower.  They also serve as an additional force for the last battle thanks to Galad taking it over.

If you have read up to a certain book let me know and I can answer the question based on that.

Thanks yeah I’m on book 6 so I think I knew all those spoilers lol