IWW 2012 - It's a (Wo)man's Job

[Niamh Sedai]

Respones to Niamh Sedai

 

I do agree with most of what you're saying ^^ almost everything =) Except the part about "feminist movement at present".

They're everwhere, helping women at work get equal pay grades as men, love that. Although what I don't love about the more "extreme" feminists are that they just go to overdrive when it comes to certain aspects. For example.. In Sweden they're talking about "man breasts", THEY want MEN to wear FRICKEN ARTIFICALL breasts to feed the babies when they're at home. WHY!? Why can't they just use bottles? WHY the bloody flaming goats milk do they have to be equal in EVERY WAY.

 

There are Men.. And there are Women, we are Different in SOME asspects and similiar in Others. Pay grades and such should not be based on gender, but on work efficiency.

But we can't be bloody equal at bloody well everything, now can we? Men are born with more muscles, born that way. Women mature several years faster than men, born that way aswell. THE LINE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE. That's all I have to say, and If there is someone who thinks he/she missunderstands, feel free to respond or ask.

 

Don't jump to conclusions and get all aggresive. And read EVERY word I say, so you won't miss "Extreme" Feminists, for example. That means I'm not refering to all, only to a small percentage.

 

I do slightly disagree. Feminist blogs have to trawl through the News to find relevant articles. Feminism is not a huge deal anymore. My lecturer at University and I had a conversation; we don't think Feminism at present can even be termed a Fourth Wave (and the Third Wave is almost certainly over). I am not say that there aren't feminists out there or feminist organisation or even Women's organisation nor am I saying that aren't doing anything. What I am saying is that they need to be louder. They need to get young women involved and impassioned about representing their Gender; not just in their home countries on issues than affect them directly, but world wide. My personal opinion is that is where the real battle needs to be fought- the western world is much improved from say 100 years ago but in the Third World female illiteracy, female education, rape, arranged marriages, genital mutilation, and abuse are just some of the problems women face on a daily basis.

 

Part of the problem is that 'feminism' as a world has a variety of connotations and they are mostly associated with dominating women who burn their bras and hate men. Also, it's negatively associated with lesbianism in some ignorant cases. This is an issue because Modern-Day Feminists- myself included- are being identified with an image which is 40-50 years old. It is my opinion that women organisations aren't working hard enough to give feminism a more normalised image, one which women find accessible and identifiable.

 

And also- I don't get agressive. ;) Well, not unless someone came along and said something ridiculously stupid such as 'YOU SHOULD ALL BE IN THE KITCHEN'. Then I might get a big stick! :D

[Sunrise Lord]

My mom had me exactly a week after she turned 18; I was premature and she had very little support, along with her crazy mafia-involved dad trying to kidnap me for whatever reason. She was raised by her grandma, who was at work most of the time, so she was alone quite a bit. Her mother was abusive, so she never had contact with her, except when she was vey young. My parents split when I was three. My mom was then the only supporter I had. Then, two years later, she got together with my brother and sister's dad, who just so happened to be a heavy drug user and an alcoholic, though she didn't know that at the time. He was also very abusive; he put her in the hospital more times than I can remember. She was always so scared that he would retaliate if she reported him. Through those nine years, despite what was going on in our home, she was the only person who went to work every day and made the money for us to survive on. She would work 50-60 hours a week just to get by, and often the "man" would take the money to buy drugs with. Seven years ago, she finally got out from under the druggie's thumb, but still had to work insane hours to make enough for rent, bills, food, etc. Even now, living with numerous medical issues, she works hard. Despite the demands of work over the years, she still made time for myself and my siblings, coloring easter eggs, taking us to the movies or the mall as a special occasion. To be honest, I've never seen a man work as hard as she did. I'm not bashing those who do, I've just not seen one in my lifetime. I was raised without any kind of male "role model" to compare to, so I may sound a bit biased, but I know my mom was and still is, the hardest working individual I know.

[Arez Al'Loke]

*And also- I don't get agressive. ;) Well, not unless someone came along and said something ridiculously stupid such as 'YOU SHOULD ALL BE IN THE KITCHEN'. Then I might get a big stick! :D*

 

Oh my lord.. You have NO clue how much I LOVE sexist jokes, I can't help it, I just do.. But this is a serious thread ^^ And I don't think any such comments belong here or on any other serious thread =)

 

*but I know my mom was and still is, the hardest working individual I know. *

 

Funny, My mother is probably the hardest working individual I know aswell xP And probably the most intelligant aswell O_o.. She's .. Dangerous xD

My father has a temper, my mother.. doesn't. I'd like to think of my mother as compressed eviiil xD Because when she gets angry, I run the hell out of there..

 

Anyway, back to topic. I believe both my father and mother are very hard working, but in diffrent ways. My dad works at his job ALOT ^^

And my mom works aswell, but she kinda finds more time to help me and my brother with school and such =)

[Wren of the Brown]

Sakaea my friend.. You see, "we" men are often usually very lazy ^^ So we do what we have to before the deadline comes xD

 

I scoff.

[Reyoru]

Rey: *heartmelts* That's probably one of the sweetest things ever. Mind my asking what field your mother is in? Also, it's good to hear that a busy

work life and an obviously successful home life (judging by your praise) is possible.

 

Thanks Mashira. She was a neurosurgeon, now works in old-age psychiatry.

[Alira]

My reply to this, unusually, is different for each of you. Alira, I think Arez raises a good point. You know best how youre being treated, and I can fully believe it is unfairly. That said, maybe thinking on what Arezhas said might shed new light on at least some of the situations you face. As for trying to take your work away, thats wrong.

 

Arez, I agree men can be like that- but they shouldnt be. Some girls can handle those jokes, some cant(same true for guys, of course). But if a- woman, i should say, apologies- if a woman came to work in MY work environment, I'd err on the side of caution until i got to know her and thought "wow, this girl can rough it up like a good un." Like i said, i'm the stand-up-on-the-train type, so I believe in a certain respectful attitude towards "the fairer sex"- at least until they prove they dont want or need it.

 

There is a lot of joking around, and I don't have problems with guys who make comments in fun. I tend to give as good as I get. It's when people actually seem to mean it that I get angry. When the classmate says that the reason I get good marks is because I must be sleeping with the TA, when the lab instructor (who I don't know very well) accuses me of trying to snag a rich husband. When I'm told at work that I can't talk to anyone without my supervisor's consent, in case I might ask frivolous questions (the male co-op student, who was also a classmate, was under no such restrictions).

 

There are other things that are all in fun, that I don't mind. I've been teased for wearing "girly" clothes by friends, I'm jokingly called my class's mother, since I'm the one who keeps them informed, and answers all the questions that they shouldn't need to ask (When is this due? Do we have class today? etc.). That's fine. I know these people, and I know that they're just teasing. I'll tease them about being disorganized, and how men can't multitask in return.

[MashiraSedai]

When I first applied, the guy who interviewed me said that there's a lot of heavy lifting involved, was I sure I could do it. I just said yes, and he hired me. I'm one of only 2 girls who do this job, it's very male-dominated. But the funny thing is (no offense guys) us 2 girls work harder and faster, and get our stuff done before the guys. Not sure if that's a function of we're female so we bust it out to prove we can or what. I listen to music on my iPod while I work, so it's actually fairly enjoyable

 

I think this is pretty awesome.

 

 

 

I am not say that there aren't feminists out there or feminist organisation or even Women's organisation nor am I saying that aren't doing anything. What I am saying is that they need to be louder. They need to get young women involved and impassioned about representing their Gender; not just in their home countries on issues than affect them directly, but world wide. My personal opinion is that is where the real battle needs to be fought- the western world is much improved from say 100 years ago but in the Third World female illiteracy, female education, rape, arranged marriages, genital mutilation, and abuse are just some of the problems women face on a daily basis.

 

Part of the problem is that 'feminism' as a world has a variety of connotations and they are mostly associated with dominating women who burn their bras and hate men. Also, it's negatively associated with lesbianism in some ignorant cases. This is an issue because Modern-Day Feminists- myself included- are being identified with an image which is 40-50 years old. It is my opinion that women organisations aren't working hard enough to give feminism a more normalised image, one which women find accessible and identifiable.

 

Niamh, I agree with this quite a bit, especially the bold bit. I think the very word 'feminism' these days can cause people to cringe, and that really shouldn't be the case.

The stigma attached to feminism due to an offshoot extreme movement has really tainted what feminism should be. In my opinion, that movement may actually have done

more to harm it's cause than promote it.

 

Sunrise: Your mother sounds like a very brave woman with the sort of passion we need more of these days.

 

 

 

There is a lot of joking around, and I don't have problems with guys who make comments in fun. I tend to give as good as I get. It's when people actually seem to mean it that I get angry. When the classmate says that the reason I get good marks is because I must be sleeping with the TA, when the lab instructor (who I don't know very well) accuses me of trying to snag a rich husband. When I'm told at work that I can't talk to anyone without my supervisor's consent, in case I might ask frivolous questions (the male co-op student, who was also a classmate, was under no such restrictions).

 

I'm stunned. This is ridiculous, and quite honestly very enraging.

 

F: I am glad you brought up some of the double edged sword so to speak in feminism. My personal opinion is hard to explain, but I'll try...

 

I'm a traditional person with passions about equality. I think, after some reflection (and a mathematical discussion ) that perhaps equality is not the

word that I am endorsing. I personally do enjoy the 'benefits of femininity' and believe them to be respectful/polite. I also enjoy the opportunity to be an

auto mechanic if I so choose. I suppose what I am saying is I am more about equal opportunity as opposed to strict black and white definition of equality...

I don't know if that makes sense...

 

Rey: You have no idea how much hope you've just given me! LOL! I hope to eventually become a psychiatrist but don't know if my work/home ideals are

really compatible. It's reassuring to know that someone out there has made it work, and successfully at that!

[Reyoru]

Rey: You have no idea how much hope you've just given me! LOL! I hope to eventually become a psychiatrist but don't know if my work/home ideals are really compatible. It's reassuring to know that someone out there has made it work, and successfully at that!

 

Psychiatry may be in my future as well! Best of luck to you on that Mashira

[MashiraSedai]

Traditional Careers/Jobs

Why is it that if you type the word ‘maid’ into google and look at the images, at least the first 500 images are of women?

Let us breach the topic of traditionally female careers/jobs. Teachers, secretaries, nurses (ahem), receptionists, maids, and librarians.

Did you think of a woman? Why?

 

How about these: Doctor, construction worker, CEO, lawyer, police officer, engineer, electrician, carpenter, politician.

Did you think of a man? Why? Women have made much progress in jobs that are traditionally considered to be male roles.

If you were a man in one of these careers, and made more money than your female counterpart who is equally educated and

qualified, would it bother you? Glass ceilings are still widely acknowledged in developed countries. Despite improvement over

the years, why have they been tolerated for so long? How do you view these careers, or how do you believe they are viewed? Are

you a woman in a male dominated career? Are you a male in a female dominated career? How does this affect you?

[MashiraSedai]

I cannot speak for all of the above mentioned careers, however I can speak on nursing. As a registered nurse I am in a career that is considered traditionally female. What does this mean? What do others take it to mean? In my experience, my role in healthcare is often minimized. I know people that believe all nurses do is pick up poo all day. I have heard people say, “the only qualification to be a nurse, is the ability to call a doctor” (No, not to me, I would have eaten them for lunch). While in nursing school, most of my family nearly had heart attacks when they realized the sheer amount of medical knowledge we are required to have (anatomy, physiology, pathology, pharmacology, biological chemistry, developmental psychology, to name a few). Why was this shocking? Why wouldn’t a healthcare professional need extensive medical knowledge?! In my experience, the problem is that most onlookers do not take nursing to be a ‘profession’ as much as a subservient role to doctors, who do the ‘real work’.

Luckily, the (majority) of doctors that I have worked with realize my value. The hospital I work for uses a team model, meaning all specialties are part of the ‘treatment team’ and no one specialty is greater than another. Doctors, nurses, physical therapists, psychiatrists and social workers all have their own distinct role in a patients care.

Consider this: a doctor spends ten to twenty minutes with a patient each day during their stay. Nurses spend twenty four hours with their patients. We know how that patient feels, what medications the patient takes, what problems they are facing at home, work, and the internal struggles they face alone. To me, nursing is holistic. However, nursing cannot function without doctors. I cannot prescribe medications (until I get my NP ) and a doctor cannot be there every waking moment to ensure their prescribed medications/orders get carried out. The doctor needs a nurse to ensure the safety and care of his/her patients while he/she is away and accomplishes this through working with the people that can identify and do something about that, namely nurses. If we (doctors and nurses) don’t work together, we don’t work at all. It is my responsibility to monitor a patient’s health status. If the patient stops breathing, has a complication after surgery, or shows subtle signs of an impending cardiac collapse, guess whose job it is to identify and fix the problem? Mine!

My role in empowering nursing: I do not cater to doctors, and I do not allow them to treat me as an inferior. This angers some of the older nurses that still believe catering is part of our role. It also angers some doctors that believe the role of a nurse is insignificant and/or subservient to theirs. I don’t care. Last I checked, catering to a doctor is not my job. My job is to care for my patients. Period. If that means calling you at 2am, I’ll do it. If you yell at me for calling you at 2am, I will calmly ask you to act like the professional you are, and not the idiot you are being. That’s gotten a lot of stunned silence from many a disarmed doc *wink*.

 

Rey: that's awesome! Any particular patient population?

[Sunrise Lord]

As to the so-called traditional jobs of women. When I hear "teacher," I don't immediately see a woman, I see both men and women. Some of the best teachers I had in school have been males. I think there's not a lot of male teachers because (most) men just don't have the patience to teach a bunch of kids who really don't want to be there, excepting those who do relish the chance to learn something new. I know I would never have the patience to teach. As to nurses, I think of--again--both men and women, not only because I'm in training to be a nurse myself, but because I've been under the care of male nurses and know them to be just as qualified as a female nurse.

 

If I were a doctor, and my co-worker was a female doctor, just as educated and qualified for the role as myself, and she made less than me, absolutely it would bother me. That's just downright, nine kinds of hellashishness, stupid foolish. That woman is exactly as qualified as myself; she should make just as much money as I do. If I were a doctor, and I could find a way, I would decrease my wages, because there is no reason a person as qualified as myself should make less, none.

[Rekinu Alasayaar]

When I think of teacher, i am thinking of good teachers, and though I have had male teachers they were poor to say the best about them. When you take a coach, whose life and love is the sport he teaches, and you FORCE him to teach another subject as well (to save money, or pay him more whatever) that second subject suffered. I had several history teachers who should NOT have been teaching it due to their lack of enthusiasm/understanding of said subject. These are the teachers that would set the girl cheerleaders up at the front of the class, would have blatant favoritism in grades, etc. I was lucky that I loved history to do plenty of my own reading, to not ruin history for me, but plenty of my friends hated history due to the lack of teaching.

 

that said, teachers can be either sex. I almost went into teaching to be able to help students have a love of history, but after much research, I decided it was not a viable option. All male teachers are also coaches, and I HATE sports... I mean, i could watch something every now and then, but coach a sport? Forget it! On top of that, Teacher salary is so poor my wife would have to work in order for us to have above average life style. I might go back to having teaching as an option, but at this point, it would be for teaching a computer class or something like that.

 

 

About nurses, i know very little... but i was a 9 week premature birth, and the nurse "delivered me" (more aptly said she caught me) and I remember that the doctor was furious at her... lol. My mom and her actually ended up becoming friends until we moved a couple of years later.

[Reyoru]

@Mashira:

 

I agree with a lot of what you say here Mashira, but most of what you said here was a defense of the nursing profession in general, and not about gender roles within nursing.

 

But as a med student, I totally agree with you that nurses are not subordinates, but are obviously health professionals who got a college degree and postgrad qualifications etc.

 

The whole doctors/nurses dynamic would need a thread of it's own heh.

 

Rey: that's awesome! Any particular patient population?

 

Early days yet, but we'll have to see. Psychiatry is one of the many specialities I'm interested in at the moment

[MashiraSedai]

Rey, you're absolutely right *steps off soap box* That's what happens when I post after a 12 hour day

My apologies, got my passions mixed up!

 

Will be back to discuss further when I'm more cognizant!

[ElusiveAthena]

Going back to the mothers in teh workplace debate, while I believe that both men and women shoud try to be the best parents they can, I don't think a woman's professional life should stop when she gives birth. I love the idea of paid parental leave, and believe that as well as a woman being given at least 12 months full-time leave, she should also be given an extra day per week until her child is 5 years old. This is assuming that the career she had before was a 9-5 office/workplace job, but nowadays it is becoming more and more possible for jobs to be done from home - so I think more consideration needs to be given here.

 

That said, it's a very difficult decision, and I personally (at the ripe age of eighteen) do not plan on having children. This may sound selfish, but growing up in a family of ffour children, I saw how much my mother struggled with me and my brothers, in caring for us, making sure we were well educated and grew up happily. And I can say right now, that I had the most beautiful childhood possible, and it would not have been so idyllic for me or my brothers had she gone back to work. But while I will admire and respect and love her as long as I live, I don't think I could make the same choices. She gave up on a lucrative and professionally satisfying job - several opportunities - to be with us and sometimes she cries about it because she feels like she could have accomplished so much. She doesn't regret being with us, but after we grew old enough for her to countenance her going back to paid work - no one would take her seriously or employ her, despite her skills and qualifications, because she was "just" a mother.

 

I believe everyone has the right to their own ambitions, separately from their children. And I want to achieve my goals in my career and in my life, before I will, if ever, think about children. Because if I ever had children, I would not want to give them less than my mother gave me, but I'm not ready to do that, and I'm not sure if I ever will.

 

Also I don't think a woman should be defined in terms of either being a "mother" or "childless" as though those are the only things that matter. For example, my country's Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, is the first female Prime Minister in the history of Australia. Although she makes mistakes (like any male PM) she is insulted by politicians and the media because she has chosen not to have children, which is so incredibly shocking! to them that a woman coud possibly be a well-rounded individual without motherhood. It just makes me angry. Yes, I believe mothers should be incredibly respected and supported for what they do. Yes they should be proud of their motherhood - of having brought a new person into the world. But a woman should not be made to feel guilty because she chooses to forgo this.

[Elgee]

Athena, please don't take the next bit as any kind of attack on you. It was just the perfect opportunity to make a point

 

We will never have true gender equality until latent sexism no longer exists. What do I mean by latent sexism? That's just my own term for a kind of thinking that still assigns gender roles subconsciously. An example would be this (bolded by me):

 

Going back to the mothers in teh workplace debate, while I believe that both men and women shoud try to be the best parents they can, I don't think a woman's professional life should stop when she gives birth. I love the idea of paid parental leave, and believe that as well as a woman being given at least 12 months full-time leave, she should also be given an extra day per week until her child is 5 years old.

 

What we should be striving for is this (my changes in red):

 

Going back to the parents in teh workplace debate, while I believe that both men and women shoud try to be the best parents they can, I don't think a parent's professional life should stop when they become parents. I love the idea of paid parental leave, and believe that as well as a parent being given at least 12 months full-time leave, they should also be given an extra day per week until their child is 5 years old.

 

Why should only female parents make the sacrifices, or reap the rewards? Male parents should have just as much responsibility in sacrificing careers, but they should also be afforded the opportunity to spend quantity time with their children.

 

Athena, you make an excellent point here: "nowadays it is becoming more and more possible for jobs to be done from home"

 

It boggles my mind that more companies do not make use of modern technology in this way. Not only could parents spend more time with their children, but there could also be so many other benefits! Off the top of my head I can think of the benefits to the environment if less people travelled to and from work. But I digress.

 

I just want to say one more thing on the issue of gender equality at the workplace: I don't know how many of you read the works of SciFi writer David Weber, but his Honor Harrington series is a perfect example of this. I don't want to say too much, for those of you who still want to read it, but you can read a bit more about it here. I've chosen that link as a relatively spoiler free site.

[ElusiveAthena]

I agree with the changes, Elgee, but sadly although it would be great for there to be true equality - a father is very rarely expected to leave his job and stay home for years to tend for the baby. Nor is a man who chooses not to have a child seen as "less of a man". Of course, both parents should play an active role in tending for their offspring. However, throughout history, it has been seen as "the man's job" to go and be a breadwinner and the woman's to stay ome. If it was 50% either way then I wouldn't have a problem at all...

'

[Gabriel Kross]

I'd like to state, for the record, that I am fully in favour of equal rights for both genders. I will play a little bit of devils advocate here, though. In response to a question about women in the military, my answer would be that people should get assigned based on their individual ability. Meaning I dont think it's right to throw women and men forward equally (in anything, in fact) just for the sake of equality. But if a woman is just as capable of some serious ass kicking as her male colleagues, then why not. This isnt always going to be the case, though (just as some men are not cut out for conflict situations). Call me a bigot if you will, but I think while anyone should be given a chance at anything, and women have just as much CAPACITY as men at any given task, there are situations where a higher PROPORTION of men would be more successful (and other situations where the opposite is true, of course). To be brutally honest, if a front lines situation comes down to hand to hand fighting, men would have a definate advantage. Sorry if that offends some of the die hard feminists out there. But as I said, everyone should be judged as individuals. It's not like things get that up close and personal in war as the trench fighting of WW1 any more, of course.

 

There are other things about the womens rights movement which I admit bug me though. Firstly, is that I find women often want to be treated equally until they dont want to be treated equally. I think its fair to say that often womens rights is about gaining something they feel is "more" not giving up the good bits. For example, there is plenty of talk about "there are no gentlemen left these days" (my standard reply is there arent enough ladies, either, but thats a discussion for another day). Women want to be given a seat if there isnt enough available, want to have the door held open, help to carry something heavy, a jacket if it is cold/raining etc etc. Now- I agree with all this. I'm the kind of guy who does all that.

 

However. Compare that desire for special treatment with the bullish "everything should be equal" attitude that comes out when it comes to employment opportunities, wages, and everything else wrapped in. Look at the outcry in the UK this year when womens car insurance was raised to be the same as mens, because it was decided it wasnt fair to charge based on gender- even tho we all know there are more reckless boy racers out there than girls. (I'll make no comment on driving skill, as that will probably inflame everyone to not giving me a fair hearing as I try to present a fair alternative argument here...) Suddenly, they dont want everything equal. They want the perks of being feminine.

 

Lets take the two examples above- employment and wages. As regards employment- do women really want equal employment opportunities across the board? Do you? Did you answer yes? Well, lets consider that. I'm an electrician, so I work in the construction trade. There are precious few female electrical workers around, even less plumbers, not a single builder that I know of and I'll die of shock the second I see a woman working as a simple labourer on a construction site. Now, this does not surprise me. Because I'm the kind of guy who will give a girl a seat on a crowded train. And yet, women everywhere are crying out that there is no job, physical or mental, that they arent as capable as men at accomplishing if they choose to be. My question is, if womens rights really matters to women, wouldnt the ideal be to have an equal number of men and women working in all sectors? Now I appreciate that there are women working in other sectors in what are considered to also be "menial" jobs- but in my experience, the ones who push womens rights are the ones who want the fancy office jobs or highly skilled trades like surgeons etc. They dont want equal rights across the board- they want a slice of what they consider to be something "better." Those are the only women I meet who are true feminists and who really push womens rights. My challange to them is to go out and get themselves into other sectors which are even more heavily male dominated, and become trendsetters that way. If its not about the wage, prestige or type of job, then why target ones with a medium imbalance towards men and not ones with such a heavy imbalance? Again, thats not equality.

 

Now lets talk about wages. This isnt something I'm too aware of, as the law is pretty good over here in britain to be honest. There may be countries where it isnt as stringent, and again, i'll show where my loyalties lie by stating that that is ridiculous. If a man and a woman are doing the same job, putting in the same number of hours, and with the same level of competancy, then they should get the same wage. I cant put it more fairly or succinctly than that in my view.

 

But lets consider that for a moment. Lets say a man and a woman have a job as a sales rep. Lets say that the man works 10 hours per week less, and isnt as good at his job- measured in the fact that he brings in 25% less income to the company than the woman. Would you expect him to be paid less than her? I would, realistically. Would you also agree then, that if the woman was the one doing that, she should be paid less? I'm sure you would- youre reasonable, fair people.

 

Lets extrapolate from that, then, into one of my favourite subjects: sports prize money. I read a lot about women wanting equal prize money for each gender. In principal, sounds good. My question is: do they do the same job? The clearest example of this, to me, is tennis. I cant remember if the prize money at wimbledon is the same for both genders now, I do remember a big who has about it not being the same. AND YET. Refer back to our example above. Women in tennis play much less time per game, all the way throughout the tournament. Men play 5 sets not three, and the average men’s tennis game at Wimbledon has taken on 30 minutes longer to play than the average women’s game. Thus, on average the mens champion will have played 3½ hours more tennis than the womens. This is by choice, not by genetics, where other factors such as speed of serve etc could be argued to also come into play in terms of how entertaingin the game is- and after all, sport is all about entertainment. Yet women press for equal prize money, and yet not equal sets. AND I do believe the facts bear out that the mens final draws more media coverage, meaning more revenue etc (substitute this for "sales profits" in our above example).

 

I guess the whole point im trying to make here is this: Women: do you really want equal rights, or dont you?

 

 

(Again I'd point out, im against all forms of prejudice and highly respect and value women as a whole. Iv met good ones and bad ones- just like men).

 

 

I agree with this almost completely, however there is one point I'd like to make as a member the US Military. Ground troops (aka the front lines) lets be honest here a woman fighting on the front lines is just going to be a distraction for their male counter parts. I'm in no way saying a woman with the physical training could not do those front line combat roles but any true man who sees a woman take a bullet will either be 1 scarred for life or 2 going to stop what he is doing to check on her. This is why I disagree with women fighting on the frontlines.

[Niamh Sedai]

I agree with this almost completely, however there is one point I'd like to make as a member the US Military. Ground troops (aka the front lines) lets be honest here a woman fighting on the front lines is just going to be a distraction for their male counter parts. I'm in no way saying a woman with the physical training could not do those front line combat roles but any true man who sees a woman take a bullet will either be 1 scarred for life or 2 going to stop what he is doing to check on her. This is why I disagree with women fighting on the frontlines.

 

This is an intriguing perspective to me. When you say women are a distraction do you mean in a kind of sexual-romantic sense or in the sense that their male comrades would feel a need to protect them?

 

It seems to me that if women did fight on the front line, surely an important aspect of training ground troops would thus require them to all view each other as members of a team, regardless of their gender? I feel that a woman is no more worthy of protection in a combat situation that a man; real heroes aren't men who save women, they are people who save others, regardless of other considerations.

 

War is always a traumatic experience for those involved. Perhaps seeing women die would be more traumatic for their male counterparts than seeing another man die. Having never been in that kind of situation, I really cannot say. I certainly feel that the issue of whether or not women should fight on the front line, is a tough one with no right or wrong answer. By saying women can't, it makes it a gender issue but if that was changed, you'd be sending yet another group of people to their deaths and that is never a pleasant decision.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

But I think you've hit the biggest nail on the head there, Athena. Because whilst I agree on equal treatment, what you are trying to achieve there is changing a basic part of the dynamics of the male and female role.

 

Men are men and women are women. I think everyone should be treated fairly but those differences should be embraced by both genders. As such, man are better suited to some roles, women to others, and men will instinctively behave towards women in a certain way, something women should not just learn to accept, but revel in. Thats my opinion. I guess a deeper discussion of that would hinge on religious belief, in fairness. Did God make man and woman with a specific role in mind? Interesting question. Or did no one make man and woman and we are just masters of our own destiny? Not looking to start that discussion, just saying, if youre talking about changing roles in human society, you have to evaluate why those roles exist in the first place.

[Niamh Sedai]

I think it's important to remember that significant changes in Gender Roles have only occured in the last 100 years. Prior to this we have almost 2000 years of Christianity's influence in the Western World. No wonder it's taking us a while to sort out the perameters and work out how this works.

[MashiraSedai]

Unfortunately I do believe that F is correct, to get to the real root of why gender roles are fixed in most people's minds we would have to hit

on the topic of religion, or at the very least acknowledge that it plays a key role in why traditional roles are what they are.

 

EP, I can certainly see your point about women as ground troops. However, how would you say that this is different from a male? Would you not be scarred for

life if you were to see men take bullets (PTSD is growing, and there aren't women on front lines yet) or would you not not stop to check on your best guy buddy

that you just saw take a bullet? (BTW, the "you" is general, not pointing you out specifically )

 

To me it's really relative. If we are going to get into the intricacies of what one is inclined to feel, what of people that are related? Would you not say the

two above statements apply to a family member more so than a random female? Just things to think about :)

 

LG, 100% agree.

[Gabriel Kross]

there are women in convoys and such now that's technically the front lines, and honestly as a guy you expect to go in seeing atleast one of your crew getting hurt or possibly killed it's just a fact of life, but most men would rather it be a man that got shot/hurt than a woman it's a point of view men have, we do what we must so that women and children won't have to suffer (well a point of view for any decent man)

[Raena]

there are women in convoys and such now that's technically the front lines, and honestly as a guy you expect to go in seeing atleast one of your crew getting hurt or possibly killed it's just a fact of life, but most men would rather it be a man that got shot/hurt than a woman it's a point of view men have, we do what we must so that women and children won't have to suffer (well a point of view for any decent man)

 

But why is it that you (men) feel this way?

 

Nia, Elgee, I agree so much with you!

[Gabriel Kross]

who knows maybe it just feels right and natural