Borderlands

[dazparra]

So we know that the borderlands are swarming with shadowspawn, and that saldea's capital only just held on with a great captain leading the defence and rand's timely aid.

So how did the others fare??

 

we also know that the borderland army is not returning home but rather going to rands big meeting...

 

So how will the other borderlands hold on while they are waiting for their armies to return??

 

What do people think? which nations will be obliterated whilst they wait for aid?

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'm putting Saldaea, Kandor and Arafel down for smoking ruins. Sheinar too, maybe, depending on how things work out what with all the Forces of Light, Darkness and Seanchan blowing the snot out of it.

[Duskfire]

maradon wasnt even able to hang on with one of the great captains at the helm. They needed Rand going nuts and killing god knows how many Shadowspawn. I would be very surprised if any of the Borderland cities remain. Especially since Agelmar Jagad is with the main Borderland aemy. Really, those rulers who did that were absolutely retarded. TG around the corner and they decide to journey south with hundreds of thousands of troops and the main generals to confront one person. I still dont quite understand why they needed a massive army to do what they did.

[Ashlyn]

I'd be very surprised if any of them are still standing beyond small pockets of resistance. But if any of them made it I'd also bet on Shienar. Given what happened at Maradon that may still be up in the air as well.

 

The Borderland rulers decision to leave their respective countries with all those troops has always seemed like a bit of Shadow-work. It plays right into the hands of the DO, plus it could well lead to a fair bit of conflict if it emerges that the Borderlands, which everyone has trusted for goodness knows how long to keep the Blight at bay, have fallen mostly because their leaders stripped them of troops and took off on a seemingly frivolous quest. Personally I want to beat every single one of them senseless.

 

Edited for name correction..

[msbee]

I know the Borderlanders have arrived with Rand at FoM, but we don't know how many, it could be just the rulers with with a retinue, or entire armies.

However, since Rand was talking of providing them with gateways to travel back just hours before, I hold on to the hope that it is just the rulers.

There may be a remnant left to save; Maradon only happens 2 days before FoM so they probably still hold that, and there may be others

[Eht Slat Meit]

I know the Borderlanders have arrived with Rand at FoM, but we don't know how many, it could be just the rulers with with a retinue, or entire armies. However, since Rand was talking of providing them with gateways to travel back just hours before, I hold on to the hope that it is just the rulers. There may be a remnant left to save; Maradon only happens 2 days before FoM so they probably still hold that, and there may be others

 

No, it's definitely an entire army, four of them to be specific.

"There is an army in Braem Wood," she announced, "like nothing seen since the Aiel War. A merchant down from New Braem brought the news this morning. A solid, reliable man, Tormon; an Illianer; not given to flights of fancy or jumping at shadows. He said he saw Arafellin, Kandori, and Shienarans, in different places. Thousands of them, altogether. Tens of thousands." Collapsing into a chair, she fanned herself with one hand. Her face was touched with red, as if she had run with the news. "What in the Light are Borderlanders doing nearly on the border of Andor?"

~ WH, ch9

 

Apparently Rand took them to FoM right after securing their oaths, so I'm guessing that Demandred will probably grab the opportunity to finish making his point in Maradon. After all, Trollocs and Shadowspawns are only the tip of the 'berg.

[2RiversFan]

Eht Slat Meit, I think you confused Msbee's point. We all know that the 200K strong Borderland armies were in Far Madding after going through Andor in WH. Msbee's wondering whether the entirety of the armies accompanied their leaders to FOM or if only a smaller contingent went there, while perhaps some amount of each army were gateway'd to their respective home countries.

 

ToM Ch. 51 makes it seem (to me) that Rand will teach the Gateway weave to the Aes Sedai accompanying the borderlanders so that they may return their armies home. My guess is that the Monarchs and a small force will accompany Rand to FOM.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Eht Slat Meit, I think you confused Msbee's point. We all know that the 200K strong Borderland armies were in Far Madding after going through Andor in WH. Msbee's wondering whether the entirety of the armies accompanied their leaders to FOM or if only a smaller contingent went there, while perhaps some amount of each army were gateway'd to their respective home countries.

 

ToM Ch. 51 makes it seem (to me) that Rand will teach the Gateway weave to the Aes Sedai accompanying the borderlanders so that they may return their armies home. My guess is that the Monarchs and a small force will accompany Rand to FOM.

 

Ah, seems a moot point then, as however many soldiers they took was sufficient to guarantee that downfall of Kandor and nearly do the same to Saldaea. Those who remained behind have joined Lan's army.

 

I don't think anyone's going home at this point - it's time to fight the Last Battle, and defending the Borderlands isn't the point.

[msbee]

Ah, seems a moot point then, as however many soldiers they took was sufficient to guarantee that downfall of Kandor and nearly do the same to Saldaea. Those who remained behind have joined Lan's army.

I'm not sure what you mean here

 

I don't think anyone's going home at this point - it's time to fight the Last Battle, and defending the Borderlands isn't the point.

 

Not sure I understand you here either

The original plan (TGS 44)involved Bashere attacking the forces which over-ran Lan. So Bashere is most definitely going to be defending the Borderlands.

Unless the plan has changed, of course

 

edit

@ 2RiversFan - thanks that is exactly what I meant

[Eht Slat Meit]

Ah, seems a moot point then, as however many soldiers they took was sufficient to guarantee that downfall of Kandor and nearly do the same to Saldaea. Those who remained behind have joined Lan's army.

I'm not sure what you mean here

 

I don't think anyone's going home at this point - it's time to fight the Last Battle, and defending the Borderlands isn't the point.

 

Not sure I understand you here either

The original plan (TGS 44)involved Bashere attacking the forces which over-ran Lan. So Bashere is most definitely going to be defending the Borderlands.

Unless the plan has changed, of course

 

Exactly right - Lan and his army are heading to Tarwin's Gap. The Gap -used to be- the boundary between the Borderlands and the Blight, but with the new and increasing advance of the Blight, it's probably now part of it. That's part of why he's walking into a death trap, not just because he's facing the Shadowspawn armies.

 

Rand and his armies intend, according to ch44, to leapfrog Lan's army even further into the Blight, probably heading for the Bore. Because he intends to dictate the course of the battle, not allow Demandred to dictate it for him.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Ah, seems a moot point then, as however many soldiers they took was sufficient to guarantee that downfall of Kandor and nearly do the same to Saldaea. Those who remained behind have joined Lan's army.

I'm not sure what you mean here

 

I don't think anyone's going home at this point - it's time to fight the Last Battle, and defending the Borderlands isn't the point.

 

Not sure I understand you here either

The original plan (TGS 44)involved Bashere attacking the forces which over-ran Lan. So Bashere is most definitely going to be defending the Borderlands.

Unless the plan has changed, of course

 

Exactly right - Lan and his army are heading to Tarwin's Gap. The Gap -used to be- the boundary between the Borderlands and the Blight, but with the new and increasing advance of the Blight, it's probably now part of it. That's part of why he's walking into a death trap, not just because he's facing the Shadowspawn armies.

 

Rand and his armies intend, according to ch44, to leapfrog Lan's army even further into the Blight, probably heading for the Bore. Because he intends to dictate the course of the battle, not allow Demandred to dictate it for him.

 

 

Any "going home" and defense at this point would be a retreat, not a move forward.

[msbee]

 

Exactly right - Lan and his army are heading to Tarwin's Gap. The Gap -used to be- the boundary between the Borderlands and the Blight, but with the new and increasing advance of the Blight, it's probably now part of it. That's part of why he's walking into a death trap, not just because he's facing the Shadowspawn armies.

 

Rand and his armies intend, according to ch44, to leapfrog Lan's army even further into the Blight, probably heading for the Bore. Because he intends to dictate the course of the battle, not allow Demandred to dictate it for him.

 

Do you have a reference for the new advance of the Blight? I've missed that one and there's no mention of it in the epilogue just before the battle.

As I understand it, Rand will be leap-froging to SG, while Bashere fights in the Borderlands, all just after Lan attempts to commit suicide. Right?

[msbee]

 

Any "going home" and defense at this point would be a retreat, not a move forward.

Right now, I think all these terms are arguable

All depends on just how over-run everything is, Maradon may have been attacked particularly heavily. That's what Rand seemed to imply when he said that the DO launched the attack to break people's spirit, ie the DO was making a point of launching one especially heavy attack. But we have no way of knowing whether all of the Borderlands suffered the same. We can only speculate

[Eht Slat Meit]

All depends on just how over-run everything is, Maradon may have been attacked particularly heavily.

 

Not speculation - I'm going by the books on Kandor and Maradon, and reading into the background for Arafel. Given that my thinking is about the same as Rand's - that this is a multi-pronged attacked taking advantage of the Borderland Armies absence, I think it's safe to say that everyone except Sheinar (which is playing host to the FoL) is hip deep in trolloc poo.

~ Kandor is outright fallen, according to Barriga's Epilogue pov.

~ Maradon ... we saw what was thrown at it and we have good reason to believe that's just the first wave.

~ Arafel ... Not only is its army gone, Lan has finished gathering up its remaining defenders into his 13k.

 

And really, with the Borderland armies away, and Lan gathering the remaining defenders in this time of onslaught, who is going to sit around waiting to die?

 

That's what Rand seemed to imply when he said that the DO launched the attack to break people's spirit.

 

And I think Rand's right on that, but my interpretation is different than yours. Demandred... and I think it is Demandred because of the high tactics... is looking to make a statement and there is no more devastating statement than taking down the entire wall of defense against the Blight that the world has enjoyed for the last x years. The Borderlands are a symbol in the war against Shadow. Their consumption could shake the world. (yeah, that was subtle)

[msbee]

I can see what you mean about Rand's comments on Maradon and I'd be happy to go with either interpretation, but I still think

that the exact state of the Borderlands is a matter of speculation

 

We do know that the Towers have gone.

Barriga, who was on his way to Heeth Tower says that Kandor is fallen. But he had been travelling in a slow-moving merchant's caravan, so how good is his information? Has all of Kandor fallen? We can't tell.

He decides to head east to Arafel, hoping that it still stands and that the other Borderlands have not fallen. He doesn't know.

 

Lan, in the Gap, has Borderlanders of all stripes with him

But most of all Malkieri. Lan wouldn't be surprised if he'd drawn every living man from his former kingdom who could still hold a weapon.

He has all the Malkieri with him, but we have no way of knowing how many other Borderlanders he left behind. The Towers, towns and villages were fine when he went past, so there would have been plenty of people left there. They might have all died since, of course, but we don't know.

 

Rand decided that he wasn't going to let the DO have Maradon, therefore I'm assuming he left soldiers there and continues to hold it. The wounded were definitely brought back to Tear. Maybe they did abandon Maradon. But we don't know

 

There are various other mentions of rumours and news of trouble and fighting in the Borderlands - all very vague.

Perrin has a vision of Rand talking to Borderlanders in TOM 53 and Mat has a vision of Rand in a tent in TOM 52. The timing excludes any possibility of those being visions of Far Madding so Rand was doing something with Borderlanders during his off-screen time, it may have been with Ituralde, or Lan, or someone else. We don't know.

 

I agree that it is quite possible that it has all been over-ran completely. But we don't know. It's all speculation, especially when you consider that lack of information, rumour and bad communication is such a big theme in WOT.

[rand4747]

its not possible to defend against the shadow, they must attack right at the heart. If they destroy the heart before too much damage is done then they will be able to deal with the rest. If they take time out to defend they will likely be over run anyway and are just that much later at attacking the heart.

[msbee]

its not possible to defend against the shadow, they must attack right at the heart. If they destroy the heart before too much damage is done then they will be able to deal with the rest. If they take time out to defend they will likely be over run anyway and are just that much later at attacking the heart.

 

yes, that's why Rand is going straight to SG (leapfrogging over Lan and Bashere in the Borderlands)

[jwood01]

I am hoping that Arafel still stands and I have not seen any evidence that it has fallen. I have a feeling that part of aMoL will take place there as it is the only nation left in Randland that has only had very limited airtime. Murandy hasn't been featured much either (Siuan, Leane, et al. passed through on their way to Salidar, and the AS rebels slowly moved through Murandy), but definetly more than Arafel.

 

Lan and Moraine were in Arafel during the tGH, but other than that i cannot think of much Arafel exposure.

[cookiecrisp]

What's Lan's army count anyways? I think I recall quite a small number compared to what the monarchs have with them. With the rest of the borderlands effectively gone, it appears that most the borderlanders have already been killed. I guess TG has already begun, I wonder when the Light is going to react. The shadow's made the first move, and Rand still hasn't even gotten the Seanchan allied to him.

[Sharaman]

Lan has a relatively tiny - all cavalry force.

We also have an utterly confused timeline for him visavis Rand-Bashere.

There's a big chunk of missing time from Rand's line between his trip to Bandar (VoG +3/4) and his trip to Maradon (VoG +28?).

We have a throwaway remark from Bashere saying "Sorry we were delayed" to Rodel at Maradon.

No idea what Rand, Bashere, etc. were doing in that period.

 

Lan's timeline is fuzzy - all we know is that he gradually felt the effect of the bond passage to Nyn (that's about VoG+ 3/4) and he's not been rescued by Rand at least (Rand's PoV) when Rand arrives at FoM (VoG+29/30).

Note that, if Rand wants, there are ample channelers at FoM, and huge forces already marshalled there to dump at Tarwin's Gap.

[randsc]

The Borderlands are doomed. They are the pure and faultless lambs who will be sacrificed to redeem the corrupt and decadent South.

 

Whether that redemption is worth the cost remains to be seen. And I doubt we will see; I expect the series to end with the future course of the world still ambiguous.

[msbee]

The Borderlands are doomed. They are the pure and faultless lambs who will be sacrificed to redeem the corrupt and decadent South.

 

Whether that redemption is worth the cost remains to be seen. And I doubt we will see; I expect the series to end with the future course of the world still ambiguous.

That's a very black-and-white sort of statement.

And one of the things I've enjoyed about the series is that it stays away from black-and-white and deals with shades of grey instead.

Though I do have to agree that the ending will probably be ambiguous. In fact I'd be disappointed if it wasn't (shades of grey and all that).

I disagree that the Borderlands are doomed. I don't think it'll be pretty, but doomed seems too final.

I keep thinking of that vision (if that's what it was) of the Malkier towers seeming taller as Rand & Co. return from their trip to the Eye in TEOTW.

And I'm an optimist

[Kahsm]

You mean like how the books refrain from defining everyone as good or bad? Light and Dark? Oh wait...

[Suttree]

You mean like how the books refrain from defining everyone as good or bad? Light and Dark? Oh wait...

 

Good call...RJ believed very much in black and white at times. I seem to recall a quote where he says he likes the fact you can do that in fantasy with a straight face.

[msbee]

You mean like how the books refrain from defining everyone as good or bad? Light and Dark? Oh wait...

 

I'm going to take that as a deliberate attempt at being obtuse

There is a slight difference between declaring an entire portion of a continent doomed and a character being bad (or good)

Or we could discuss Ingtar, or Verin, or Elaida, or...