True Masters of the Blade

[Vardar]

The consensous about two handed sword fighting vs 1 handed is interesting. I tend to agree as one handed opponents have advantages and disadvantages over 2 handed. When I first read the series, it never occured to me to think every blademaster was a 2 handed fighter. We see swordsmen with 2 blades a few times in the book, I guess I figured blademasters were the same.,

[TristanWebb]

Only Gaidel has two swords IIRC. Everyone else uses the same slightly curved one sided blade (which I assume means Katana-esque) that Rand gets from Tam. As I have said before, there is no reason to have an empty hand in battle, so shields or bollocking knives should be everywhere if there is even 20% of people who use one handed weapons, but as far as we have seen only the Aiel use them.

 

I am sure Rand could make onehanded weapons popular if he started using them though, and he has Perrin to show him how to swing things single-handedly.

[Vardar]

Only Gaidel has two swords IIRC. Everyone else uses the same slightly curved one sided blade (which I assume means Katana-esque) that Rand gets from Tam. As I have said before, there is no reason to have an empty hand in battle, so shields or bollocking knives should be everywhere if there is even 20% of people who use one handed weapons, but as far as we have seen only the Aiel use them.

 

I am sure Rand could make onehanded weapons popular if he started using them though, and he has Perrin to show him how to swing things single-handedly.

 

No there were a couple of warders with 1 handed swords too. For some reason a Kandorian one pops into my head. I'm struggling to remember the exact book. Was it a warder with the delegation Min went with? It may have been. There were a couple others too. Not many mind you, but they were always pointed out.

[Kamin_Majere]

The sword styles and types range from single handed long blades to two handed great swords to katana like curved blades and even naval cutlass . I doubt there would be only Heron Marked Katana's in the world as there are many different sword styles and types of blade. About the only archetype of weapon I haven't seen (that i can remember) is a rapier.

 

As to the single handed Swords vs two handed swords, that's not what I was talking about. Not having his left hand means that entire side is weak to attack. Even people fighting with one handed weapons use their off hand for power and defense.

 

About the only exception are rapiers and they have gauche offhanded for defense/attack. Einhander swordsmen have to be much better to make up for this difference even using light weapons like rapiers, to use an actual blade with weight like a katana or a long sword that level increases even further. A simple downward swing from a person using both hands becomes neigh unblockable when you only have a single hand to use against it

[Lisa Campbell]

This quote indicates that there are a variety of swords in Randland.

 

The impression of a full-sized sword was worked into each of the huge white floorstones of the Green Ajah quarters, swords in two dozen different styles, single-edged and double, curved and straight.

 

I also recall seeing at least one man with two swords on his back, Narishma comes to mind although I can't be sure. However here are more descriptions of swords, and twin swords. Also Hurin uses a short-sword in tandem with a sword breaker. I imagine that it is mostly nobles and soldiers who use the katana style blade.

 

A single Warder trailed the Browns – Yukiri could not recall whether he belonged to Marris or Doraise – a heavyset fellow with a hard round face and a dark top knot who eyed Leonin and the swords on his back with a distrust surely picked up from his sister. (COT)

 

Master Ros had scraped together eleven men from the manor to send to Caemlyn and out­fitted them with halberds and short-swords and what armor he could find (COT)

 

A fellow pushing a wheeled grindstone and crying that he sharpened scissors or knives till they could cut wishes caught her attention as much as a lean, hard-faced woman in leather trousers with two swords strapped to her back. Doubtless a merchant’s guard or perhaps a Hunter for the Horn (KOD)

 

Saldaeans shot the birds with arrows or skewered them on their sinuously curved swords (KOD)

 

Every man carried a pair of bristling quivers at his belt and also a bundle of shafts that he stuck point down into the slope before slicing the binding cords. They wore their swords and shortswords, but the halberds and other polearms had been left on the carts this morning (KOD)

 

Tall men, they still carried the shortswords they called cat-gutters (KOD)

[Vardar]

Awesome, quotes!

 

About the only exception are rapiers and they have gauche offhanded for defense/attack. Einhander swordsmen have to be much better to make up for this difference even using light weapons like rapiers, to use an actual blade with weight like a katana or a long sword that level increases even further. A simple downward swing from a person using both hands becomes neigh unblockable when you only have a single hand to use against it

 

Depends on your relative strength compared to theirs, also height and weight. I wouldn't say a simple downward swing would becone neigh unblockable. There's a lot of factors involved there.

 

In theory rand could attach a shield to his arm, or even a blade of air to counter attack with.

 

Love the Hurin quote, I forgot about him.

[Kamin_Majere]

Yes if a 60lb girl tried it against Perrin it probably wouldn't be much of an issue, but we are talking about people of the blade master persuasion (or near enough to it) so a lot of those "factors" are already taken into account. Even someone decent enough with a blade to last a minute or two against 2 handed Rand would probably not have much difficulty defeating him now.

 

It's like Brigette talking about using a sword and why she doesn't. Men are simply much stronger and to make up for that strength you have to be MUCH better than they are.

 

As to making a blade of air... at that point why doesn't he just balefire them out of existence. That's not really sword fighting when you use the power

 

 

EDIT:

this post sounds meaner than i mean for it to come across, please don't take it that way i just cant figure out how to get the point across and it not seem rude to me.

[Vardar]

Yes if a 60lb girl tried it against Perrin it probably wouldn't be much of an issue, but we are talking about people of the blade master persuasion (or near enough to it) so a lot of those "factors" are already taken into account. Even someone decent enough with a blade to last a minute or two against 2 handed Rand would probably not have much difficulty defeating him now.

 

It's like Brigette talking about using a sword and why she doesn't. Men are simply much stronger and to make up for that strength you have to be MUCH better than they are.

 

As to making a blade of air... at that point why doesn't he just balefire them out of existence. That's not really sword fighting when you use the power

 

 

EDIT:

this post sounds meaner than i mean for it to come across, please don't take it that way i just cant figure out how to get the point across and it not seem rude to me.

 

It didn't sound rude to me at all.

 

I don't think Brig said that, it was Suain. Brig said everytime she picked up a sword, something terrible happened. And I thought that Suain quote was a bit misleading, some women are as strong as men, on average, sure men are stronger, but inside the range, it varies greatly. (Some women are scary strong)

 

Not all of the factors will be taken care of, even amoung blademasters, you're going to have some who fight with brute strength, others who rely more on speed and agility, and some who have a healthy mix of both. What I mean is, if you have a brute strength blademaster, who uses a 1 handed blade, he would be able to take on a speed/agi blademaster with a 2 hander.

 

So some of the factors yes, but not all. It's not as if a 1 handed vs 2 handed sword fight is a forgone conclusion, even against people of the same skill level.

[Kamin_Majere]

ok good, didnt know how others would take it so i put in the disclaimer lol

 

It was when Bridgette was talking (or maybe thinking) about the royal guardswomen in Andor... though thinking about it now it might have been the woman that took over leadership of the guard (the one that carries a crudgle, her name escapes me)

 

I'm not talking simply a 1 handed sword vs a two handed sword, i'm talking about his physical lack of a hand. It limits his ability to use power moves to break defense, it limits his defense against powerful moves, he cant even brace the back of a blade anymore. The human wrist is a pretty weak join in a lot of positions (especially twisting a sword around, which is why a lot of sword training is strengthening them) and to lose your second hand it puts you in a very awkward spot where most of your moves for attack and defense break down because of lack of strength now.

 

You are right and speed is important, i have never been so thoroughly beaten sparing as against someone that was super humanly quick, but i was using a long sword and they a cut and thrust sword and dagger. Even with the dagger he could barely take some of the hits i was able to put out with the heavier and more versatile sword... unfortunately for me he was insanely fast (like freakishly fast... i mean i thought i was moving in slow motion, fast) and the point of his blade found my chest quicker than i could block it

 

So realistically if Rand could get a light weight weapon like that he could get back to his blademaster level... but i still think the loss of a hand would get him killed by a less skilled fighter in the long run. If nothing else because he has lost the versatility having his second hand gives.

[Vardar]

ok good, didnt know how others would take it so i put in the disclaimer lol

 

It was when Bridgette was talking (or maybe thinking) about the royal guardswomen in Andor... though thinking about it now it might have been the woman that took over leadership of the guard (the one that carries a crudgle, her name escapes me)

 

I'm not talking simply a 1 handed sword vs a two handed sword, i'm talking about his physical lack of a hand. It limits his ability to use power moves to break defense, it limits his defense against powerful moves, he cant even brace the back of a blade anymore. The human wrist is a pretty weak join in a lot of positions (especially twisting a sword around, which is why a lot of sword training is strengthening them) and to lose your second hand it puts you in a very awkward spot where most of your moves for attack and defense break down because of lack of strength now.

 

You are right and speed is important, i have never been so thoroughly beaten sparing as against someone that was super humanly quick, but i was using a long sword and they a cut and thrust sword and dagger. Even with the dagger he could barely take some of the hits i was able to put out with the heavier and more versatile sword... unfortunately for me he was insanely fast (like freakishly fast... i mean i thought i was moving in slow motion, fast) and the point of his blade found my chest quicker than i could block it

 

So realistically if Rand could get a light weight weapon like that he could get back to his blademaster level... but i still think the loss of a hand would get him killed by a less skilled fighter in the long run. If nothing else because he has lost the versatility having his second hand gives.

 

You're correct, but in theory he should be killed by most Blademasters in this world. How did he learn the sword to blademaster level in less than 2 years of touching his first sword? Magic. So Magic will help him learn to be awesome with 1 hand.

 

Where do you duel btw?

[Kamin_Majere]

True, you have to suspend belief in general talking about Rand, Galad, or Gawyn because no one should get that good that quickly. But the story needed it so there it is lol

And yes Rand should have lost to most Blademasters in the world; but through hard work, genetics, and Robert Jordan he because the second best swordsman in the world (with the great majority of his talent coming from the 3rd source :) )

 

As to where I spar, no where anymore. We had a club around where I live for a while but it has since dissolved but to members moving away (or like me had to stop for medical reasons)

[XoMeltdownoX]

Point well taken about the different blade designs we have seen in the WoT. What I meant in my statement is that this is the blade design that the blade masters use. Sure we have Kandori using two blades, seaman using the cutlass and Shienarins using great swords, but all the blade masters so far have used the single edged, slightly curved, two handed blade. I think we can view this as the standard "dueling" blade design of Randland and is the one predominantly used by the upper classes. Blade designs differ for different situations and change over time due the advance of technologies of arms and armour. The WoT world is not overly realistic in many areas. The fact that the main blade design has not changed for three thousand years is one example. Another would be that the Shienarins would specialize in the use of the great sword, but fight predominantly from horseback as the worlds best heavy cavalry.

(edit: I know the Shienarins use the lance as any heavy cavalry would, but I doubt any real world cavalry did it with a 5 or 6 foot sword strapped to their backs)

[Kamin_Majere]

That actually makes sense. They aren't using a great sword like a claymore or a zweihander, i wouldn't think (though it is possible) but a bastard sword. They are good at putting down heavier foes due to the different ways you can use them, they are highly adaptable weapons. You can stab, cut, defend, use like a club or even hold the blade and use it like a mace (one reason we invented armored gauntlets). They are still quite large swords 4 to 4-1/2 ft long, have a 2 handed or hand and a half grip, and weigh anywhere from 3-8 pounds. These make them particularly good at fighting something like a trolloc.

 

A true Great Sword would be a hindrance generally except for the strongest of wielders or as a line breaker sword (here they shine) But for a normal person it would be either over kill or a hindrance as you cant use it as well in a massive melee.

[nolirion]

True, you have to suspend belief in general talking about Rand, Galad, or Gawyn because no one should get that good that quickly. But the story needed it so there it is lol

And yes Rand should have lost to most Blademasters in the world; but through hard work, genetics, and Robert Jordan he because the second best swordsman in the world (with the great majority of his talent coming from the 3rd source :) )

 

As to where I spar, no where anymore. We had a club around where I live for a while but it has since dissolved but to members moving away (or like me had to stop for medical reasons)

Nonsense first Rand was an athlete well before he started the sword , he was then trained by the best of the best swordsman Lan for a bit more then a year . Then he got

experience trough numerous fight against human , trolloc and finally a Seanchan blade-master.

Since he got the sword of Tam he never stopped training , and until is hand got blown up he was the second best swordsman and that is not unusual at all considering he had is training , is nature as Ta'veren is nature as the dragon reborn and finally a few warder bond to enhance that .

Gawyn and Galaad did an extensive training with warder and you can imagine they where trained at the palace , so it is realistic that they got strong quick .

 

 

So realistically if Rand could get a light weight weapon like that he could get back to his blademaster level... but i still think the loss of a hand would get him killed by a less skilled fighter in the long run. If nothing else because he has lost the versatility having his second hand gives.

And realistically speaking Rand been the best male channeller alive I don't think he would use another weapon but Callandor , is days as a blademaster is over (sadly) .

Or Elayne construct a hand Ter'Angreal to replace is hand , I wanted to ask Sanderson if it was possible when I met him .

[Suttree]

True, you have to suspend belief in general talking about Rand, Galad, or Gawyn because no one should get that good that quickly. But the story needed it so there it is lol

And yes Rand should have lost to most Blademasters in the world; but through hard work, genetics, and Robert Jordan he because the second best swordsman in the world (with the great majority of his talent coming from the 3rd source :) )

 

As to where I spar, no where anymore. We had a club around where I live for a while but it has since dissolved but to members moving away (or like me had to stop for medical reasons)

Nonsense first Rand was an athlete well before he started the sword , he was then trained by the best of the best swordsman Lan for a bit more then a year . Then he got

experience trough numerous fight against human , trolloc and finally a Seanchan blade-master.

Since he got the sword of Tam he never stopped training , and until is hand got blown up he was the second best swordsman and that is not unusual at all considering he had is training , is nature as Ta'veren is nature as the dragon reborn and finally a few warder bond to enhance that .

Gawyn and Galaad did an extensive training with warder and you can imagine they where trained at the palace , so it is realistic that they got strong quick .

 

Galad and Gawyn had likely been training with Byrne and others since a very young age. They then both went into intensive training at the WT. Rand...not so much. Not sure how you can call a farmer who at most uses a staff and bow a bit an "athlete" compared to the first two. His taveren nature needing him to get good is really the only explanation(possibly early memories from LTT as well). Realistically all the young characters reached high levels of expertise in various areas extremely fast because that is what the story needed.

[nolirion]

Yes and no , Rand was not a blademaster , far from it but he got the athlete background , Matt , Perrin and Rand where already exceptionable archer the day they left Edmond field . I don't have the quote on hand .

Then he was trained by Lan and he get into it almost day and night , he never stopped training even in the waste among Aiel .

But yes the story needed them to grow strong fast so they are exceptional fighter at the core , that is the Ta'veren nature .

[Kamin_Majere]

Which is why i said the 3rd source was the most important

 

Sure he had good genes, and worked very hard... but the simple truth is Jordan needed them to be beyond exceptional so they were made that way. Even Lan told Rand that it would take him 5 years to make him worthy of the blade he carried, and being Lan is recognized as the BEST in the world i'm pretty sure he knew what he was talking about. But Rand grew to the point that he was recognized as second only to Lan in a matter of a few months. Thus RJ was the biggest asset Rand had in his rise to godhood among sword users. Its largely the same for Gawyn and Galad, they are simply to good for the limited training they have gotten, but it made the stories move along and its fun to suspend belief and have your main characters larger than life

[Suttree]

Its largely the same for Gawyn and Galad, they are simply to good for the limited training they have gotten, but it made the stories move along and its fun to suspend belief and have your main characters larger than life

 

What would make you think Gawyn and Galad have had limited training? They are nobles who most likely had a sword in hand as soon as they could walk. Byrne would have made sure they were trained extensively which is supported by Gawyn's pov on the topic.

 

Btw nolirion being good with a bow does not really translate to helping you learn the sword later on.

[Durinax]

Its largely the same for Gawyn and Galad, they are simply to good for the limited training they have gotten, but it made the stories move along and its fun to suspend belief and have your main characters larger than life

 

What would make you think Gawyn and Galad have had limited training? They are nobles who most likely had a sword in hand as soon as they could walk. Byrne would have made sure they were trained extensively which is supported by Gawyn's pov on the topic.

 

Btw nolirion being good with a bow does not really translate to helping you learn the sword later on.

actually Galad noted it during his fight with Valda.

 

Mat also had memories of being a soldier to pull upon and quarterstaff training (stated during tDR around when he thumps Galad and Gawyn) Rand likely also had quarterstaff training (Mat mentions Tam being exceptional with the staff)

[Maleshub]

Regarding Rand's sword skills and potential, the first chapter of TGH has this quote by Lan: ".... In five years I could make you worthy of it, make you a blademaster. You have quick wrists, good balance, and you don't make the same mistake twice. .... You hold yourself as if the sword belongs at your waist, sheepherder, and most village bullies wil sense it. But you've had that much almost since the day you put it on...."

 

So it seems that Rand was blessed with sufficient raw talent to be a very good swordsman.

[W_A]

I'm pretty sure the in-universe reason for Rand being so good was that he was subconsciously drawing on LTT's hundreds of years of sword fighting experience.

[TristanWebb]

Rand has had 2000 years of selective breeding for athletic ability on his fathers side. I think most of the Aiel could be Blademasters if they wanted.

[Stubby]

Yes and no , Rand was not a blademaster , far from it but he got the athlete background , Matt , Perrin and Rand where already exceptionable archer the day they left Edmond field . I don't have the quote on hand .

Then he was trained by Lan and he get into it almost day and night , he never stopped training even in the waste among Aiel .

But yes the story needed them to grow strong fast so they are exceptional fighter at the core , that is the Ta'veren nature .

 

Rand defeated a Seanchan blademaster in the Great Hunt. By definition, he was a blademaster from that moment. Regardless of this fact, he is also a blademaster now that he is unified with LTT. He is the oldest blademaster living.

[Vardar]

True, you have to suspend belief in general talking about Rand, Galad, or Gawyn because no one should get that good that quickly. But the story needed it so there it is lol

And yes Rand should have lost to most Blademasters in the world; but through hard work, genetics, and Robert Jordan he because the second best swordsman in the world (with the great majority of his talent coming from the 3rd source :) )

 

As to where I spar, no where anymore. We had a club around where I live for a while but it has since dissolved but to members moving away (or like me had to stop for medical reasons)

Nonsense first Rand was an athlete well before he started the sword , he was then trained by the best of the best swordsman Lan for a bit more then a year . Then he got

experience trough numerous fight against human , trolloc and finally a Seanchan blade-master.

Since he got the sword of Tam he never stopped training , and until is hand got blown up he was the second best swordsman and that is not unusual at all considering he had is training , is nature as Ta'veren is nature as the dragon reborn and finally a few warder bond to enhance that .

Gawyn and Galaad did an extensive training with warder and you can imagine they where trained at the palace , so it is realistic that they got strong quick .

So realistically if Rand could get a light weight weapon like that he could get back to his blademaster level... but i still think the loss of a hand would get him killed by a less skilled fighter in the long run. If nothing else because he has lost the versatility having his second hand gives.

And realistically speaking Rand been the best male channeller alive I don't think he would use another weapon but Callandor , is days as a blademaster is over (sadly) .

Or Elayne construct a hand Ter'Angreal to replace is hand , I wanted to ask Sanderson if it was possible when I met him .

 

Not a year. He didn't start any real training until After the EOTW to be honest. And he was at the borderlands for what? A month or two at most I believe. Then 2 more months in that valley training with him. So at most, 4 months of Lan training, before the Aiel training with Rand, which would still be less than 8 months, but even then, that's when he was training the most, every night for a few hours.

[Vardar]

Yes and no , Rand was not a blademaster , far from it but he got the athlete background , Matt , Perrin and Rand where already exceptionable archer the day they left Edmond field . I don't have the quote on hand .

Then he was trained by Lan and he get into it almost day and night , he never stopped training even in the waste among Aiel .

But yes the story needed them to grow strong fast so they are exceptional fighter at the core , that is the Ta'veren nature .

 

He defeated a blademaster, book 2, thus he is a blademaster. No questions about it. Them's the rules.