Taim - Chosen

[dazparra]

Taim is obviously a new age chosen, as seen from his direct quote "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"

This is only a directive give to the chosen, not to ordinary darkfriends who are often left in the dark as to what is happening.

 

Not only do we have this direct quote, but obviously some of the chosen need to be replaced after Rank killing so many off.

[Luckers]

This is my belief also, however some believe Taim to be Moridin., and even a select few who believe that Taim is Be'lal recycled using the 'very small balefire allows transmigration' loophole.

[GYLD]

This is only a directive give to the chosen, not to ordinary darkfriends who are often left in the dark as to what is happening.

 

Well this isn't true. Earlier on in the very same book Semirhage tells Suroth "Let the Lord of Chaos rule".

[Goldstar]

This is my belief also, however some believe Taim to be Moridin., and even a select few who believe that Taim is Be'lal recycled using the 'very small balefire allows transmigration' loophole.

I haven't come across this loophole. Could you explain it real quick? :X

[Ferdawoon]

This is my belief also, however some believe Taim to be Moridin., and even a select few who believe that Taim is Be'lal recycled using the 'very small balefire allows transmigration' loophole.

I haven't come across this loophole. Could you explain it real quick? :X

 

We know that the Dark one can bring someone's soul into a new body if he is ready as the person die. If too long pass then the soul is beyond his reach. If you Balefire someone, you make them die backwards in time. You can basicly force someone beyond the point where the Dark One can still catch your soul and thus preventing someone from being brought back (which is what Rand have started to do).

However, we have no clue how big this window of opportunity is that the Dark One have to catch a soul as someone die. Seconds, minutes, hours? So, if you are weak in the One Power and Balefire someone, theoreticly that balefire can be weak enough to not burn you past the Dark One's grasp.

 

Basicly, if the Balefire is weak enough, you can be still be brought back.

[francy]

This is my belief also, however some believe Taim to be Moridin., and even a select few who believe that Taim is Be'lal recycled using the 'very small balefire allows transmigration' loophole.

I haven't come across this loophole. Could you explain it real quick? :X

 

We know that the Dark one can bring someone's soul into a new body if he is ready as the person die. If too long pass then the soul is beyond his reach. If you Balefire someone, you make them die backwards in time. You can basicly force someone beyond the point where the Dark One can still catch your soul and thus preventing someone from being brought back (which is what Rand have started to do).

However, we have no clue how big this window of opportunity is that the Dark One have to catch a soul as someone die. Seconds, minutes, hours? So, if you are weak in the One Power and Balefire someone, theoreticly that balefire can be weak enough to not burn you past the Dark One's grasp.

 

Basicly, if the Balefire is weak enough, you can be still be brought back.

 

really? I don't think I've come across that one before, that the DO can bring anyone back after they've been bale fired - no matter how weak... Not arguing with you, just didn't think it was possible at all - no matter how weak... If its a weak BF, then the events that have just taken place (like someone dying - Avi and Mat and Asmo) can be undone, but I honestly don't think that the DO can grab someone thats been BF'd - weak or no. I'm no expert though!

 

Having said that, I don't think Taim is anyone reborn / transmigrated. I believe (though I've got nothing to base it on!!) that he is just plain old Taim, born to this point of time on the wheel, and that yes - I reckon he's become the newest and first chosen of this age... Just my opinion... I've flirted with the notion that he was a Chosen back in the good old AOL days, just like some suspect that Egwene and the others are reborn AS... But I believe he's been reborn naturally, without the help of the DO.

[Luckers]

RJ stated that if the Balefire were very weak, the Dark One could still bring someone back. I do not think Moiraine, who admittedly is not Forsaken strength, but is nonetheless very, very far from being weak in the Power, classifies. But some do.

[GYLD]

By Moiraine's own admission the strongest she could manage with Balefire would "remove only a few seconds from the Pattern". That does seem like a reasonably short enough time for the loophole. At this point the story though there's little to suggest Be'lal is anything but dead, but I do think the Dark One could have recycled him if he had greater incentive at the time to act quicker.

[Majsju]

I would say this this confirms that Be'lal is not coming back,

 

Tam: He doesn't have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else)...

 

[jwood01]

Taim is definitely currently a DF, and I agree that he is probably a new chosen (especially considering how many there were in the previous age; not just the 13 that got sealed). I disagree that he is Morridin

 

However, this leaves an interesting question. When did Taim go over to the shadow?

 

Was he always a DF?

 

Was he 13x13 when being freed from the Aes Sedai? or go over to the shadow in exchange for his freedom?

 

Did he go over to the Shadow because he has to play 2nd fiddle to Rand? (Isn't that why Demandred and Samuel went over in the AoL?)

[Valley of Death]

when taim comes to rand at first it didnt seem like he was a DF

[RandA lThor]

Ingtar didn't seem like a DF either.

[Sephie913]

Seem like a DF? You guys recall the the Lady with the dagger in TEotW (don't recall her name atm)? She caught me by surprise the first time. In fact, very few revealed DF's get the reaction: saw it coming. (from me at least)

 

I think Taim was probably a DF all along, but something heppened since, something darker. I think him being made a Chosen could explain that, sometime around the first and second Rand visits to the Farm.

 

Alternately, he's just a greedy little jerk only looking out for himself, and it has nothing to do with DO. even if this is what's going on, the major case of the creeps he gives me suggest he's a perfect representation of sociopathy.

[TristanWebb]

There are so many people that say 'X has to be a darkfriend' with really no evidence other than they have some amount of power and that they have a name . Even the wonder girls have been accused of being darkfriends from time to time. 'Doesn't seem like a darkfriend' is not going to carry any weight.

[fyodor]

This is my belief also, however some believe Taim to be Moridin., and even a select few who believe that Taim is Be'lal recycled using the 'very small balefire allows transmigration' loophole.

I haven't come across this loophole. Could you explain it real quick? :X

 

We know that the Dark one can bring someone's soul into a new body if he is ready as the person die. If too long pass then the soul is beyond his reach. If you Balefire someone, you make them die backwards in time. You can basicly force someone beyond the point where the Dark One can still catch your soul and thus preventing someone from being brought back (which is what Rand have started to do).

However, we have no clue how big this window of opportunity is that the Dark One have to catch a soul as someone die. Seconds, minutes, hours? So, if you are weak in the One Power and Balefire someone, theoreticly that balefire can be weak enough to not burn you past the Dark One's grasp.

 

Basicly, if the Balefire is weak enough, you can be still be brought back.

 

really? I don't think I've come across that one before, that the DO can bring anyone back after they've been bale fired - no matter how weak... Not arguing with you, just didn't think it was possible at all - no matter how weak... If its a weak BF, then the events that have just taken place (like someone dying - Avi and Mat and Asmo) can be undone, but I honestly don't think that the DO can grab someone thats been BF'd - weak or no. I'm no expert though!

 

Having said that, I don't think Taim is anyone reborn / transmigrated. I believe (though I've got nothing to base it on!!) that he is just plain old Taim, born to this point of time on the wheel, and that yes - I reckon he's become the newest and first chosen of this age... Just my opinion... I've flirted with the notion that he was a Chosen back in the good old AOL days, just like some suspect that Egwene and the others are reborn AS... But I believe he's been reborn naturally, without the help of the DO.

 

I think that the theory is this-the Dark One has to capture your soul within a short time after your death. If you're balefired that means you died five minutes ago or ten minutes ago and by the time the Dark One knows you've been killed you've been dead too long to be captured. This is why he tells Demandred in the context of balefire that he (DO) can't step outside of time.

 

However, if you are killed with very weak balefire you only died a few seconds ago and the DO can still get your soul within the recovery window.

 

That being said, I'm pretty sure that we've never seen this workaround mentioned in the books - only in interviews with RJ so I'd be surprised if he relied upon it.

[fyodor]

I think that if Taim probably was always a Darkfriend. His "so-called Aiel" comment in LoC is a Forsaken giveaway. So if he's not from the Age of Legends he was trained by someone who was.

 

 

 

Taim is definitely currently a DF, and I agree that he is probably a new chosen (especially considering how many there were in the previous age; not just the 13 that got sealed). I disagree that he is Morridin

 

However, this leaves an interesting question. When did Taim go over to the shadow?

 

Was he always a DF?

 

Was he 13x13 when being freed from the Aes Sedai? or go over to the shadow in exchange for his freedom?

 

Did he go over to the Shadow because he has to play 2nd fiddle to Rand? (Isn't that why Demandred and Samuel went over in the AoL?)

[Shig]

But, remember that taim gave Rand one of the DO seals. Of course, this opens the door to the idea that either taim was given permission to do so by the DO himself, or on the DO orders from one of the chosen, in order to gain rand's trust(to a point) so he could corrupt new male channelers from the inside, and find out something of rands plans. But in my opinion, we know from Demandred's PoV, that the DO is frustrated with his inability to touch the pattern more, and as we've seen, as the seals break, the DO grows in strength(ability to touch the pattern), so shouldn't he be smashing them up left, right and center? Furthermore, Taim displayed some concern when rand began babbling about breaking the seal in their first encounter, and was urging him to hold on...BUT... this seems like something that moridin's loyal apprentice would say, what with ish/moridin thinking that it is fated that they will eventually come to a confrontation. I really like the idea that either taim wasn't a DF when he first met rand, but converted OR, that he was a DF channeler, and was told to get close to the Dragon Reborn, and possibly was promoted by moridin/the DO, seems like something the naeblis could do.

 

So in conclusion, i have no idea whats going on! we'll just have to wait and see

[OptimusPrime]

when taim comes to rand at first it didnt seem like he was a DF

 

He didnt seem like a Darkfriend when he saved Rand at Dumais Wells either. But then again, Moridin didnt seem like a Chosen when he helped Rand at Shadar Logoth.

[RandA lThor]

Maybe there is a prophecy only DFs know that say that Rand will break the seals, so it wouldn't make a difference who did it.

[yourcheesehat]

let the lord of chaos rule.

he gave rand the seal during his downward spiral so it was a df move really, unless taim new better.

but i give taim more credit than that.

[jwood01]

I think that if Taim probably was always a Darkfriend. His "so-called Aiel" comment in LoC is a Forsaken giveaway. So if he's not from the Age of Legends he was trained by someone who was.

 

That's not proof he was always a DF. To me that is an indication that he may have been trained by a Forsaken at some point. He could've been trained after he met Rand, and Rand forced him into a teaching role, rather than a military one.

 

Taim could've gone to Rand hoping to be the Dragon's right-hand man, and they could go around the world kicking Foresaken a** and blowing sh** up. But he shows up and Rand makes him the Principal rather than the warrior he thinks he is, and in Taim's mind, doesn't show him much respect.

[Kahsm]

I think that if Taim probably was always a Darkfriend. His "so-called Aiel" comment in LoC is a Forsaken giveaway. So if he's not from the Age of Legends he was trained by someone who was.

 

That's not proof he was always a DF. To me that is an indication that he may have been trained by a Forsaken at some point. He could've been trained after he met Rand, and Rand forced him into a teaching role, rather than a military one.

 

Taim could've gone to Rand hoping to be the Dragon's right-hand man, and they could go around the world kicking Foresaken a** and blowing sh** up. But he shows up and Rand makes him the Principal rather than the warrior he thinks he is, and in Taim's mind, doesn't show him much respect.

 

"So-called Aiel" is not exactly a catchy turn-of-phrase that someone would casually pick up. And I highly doubt that Chosen or Dreadlord training includes classes on way-of-the-leaf Aiel that are so indepth you begin to forget what you know about them and believe that's the way they should be. If he got classes they'd be more historical, and I really don't see their education system being that in depth.

 

More than likely he was referring to the crazy stories about Aiel. I mean the guy's from Saldaea... so Aiel are likely 10 feet tall fire breathing man eaters. Thus, these relatively normal looking guys are "so-called Aiel".

 

Or you can buy into my wishful thinking theory that Taim is from the AoL. But otherwise, I don't see how he'd pick it up, I don't think it's like a Sith Lord mentorship program.

[Luckers]

I think that if Taim probably was always a Darkfriend. His "so-called Aiel" comment in LoC is a Forsaken giveaway. So if he's not from the Age of Legends he was trained by someone who was.

 

That's not proof he was always a DF. To me that is an indication that he may have been trained by a Forsaken at some point. He could've been trained after he met Rand, and Rand forced him into a teaching role, rather than a military one.

 

Taim could've gone to Rand hoping to be the Dragon's right-hand man, and they could go around the world kicking Foresaken a** and blowing sh** up. But he shows up and Rand makes him the Principal rather than the warrior he thinks he is, and in Taim's mind, doesn't show him much respect.

 

"So-called Aiel" is not exactly a catchy turn-of-phrase that someone would casually pick up. And I highly doubt that Chosen or Dreadlord training includes classes on way-of-the-leaf Aiel that are so indepth you begin to forget what you know about them and believe that's the way they should be. If he got classes they'd be more historical, and I really don't see their education system being that in depth.

 

See I see it more like the way an adolescent might pick up mannerisms and catch-phrases that someone they look up to uses. The memes of the Wheel of Time, if you will. If Taim were young enough when training began--and indeed, he probably would have been. Ishamael learnt the Dragon had been reborn about sixteen years prior to the beginning of the story, and would have began testing and training Darkfriends to be Dreadlords at around the same time (much the same as he must have done during the Trolloc Wars), at which time Taim would have been at that impressionable age.

 

Indeed, casual pejoratives like that are not taught, they're absorbed. It's likely the same reason Taim uses the red on black, and the fist and three lightning bolts that Be'lal and Sammael have used in the past.

[TristanWebb]

I can't wait for the Moridin/Taim father son reunion in MoL.

[Kahsm]

I think that if Taim probably was always a Darkfriend. His "so-called Aiel" comment in LoC is a Forsaken giveaway. So if he's not from the Age of Legends he was trained by someone who was.

 

That's not proof he was always a DF. To me that is an indication that he may have been trained by a Forsaken at some point. He could've been trained after he met Rand, and Rand forced him into a teaching role, rather than a military one.

 

Taim could've gone to Rand hoping to be the Dragon's right-hand man, and they could go around the world kicking Foresaken a** and blowing sh** up. But he shows up and Rand makes him the Principal rather than the warrior he thinks he is, and in Taim's mind, doesn't show him much respect.

 

"So-called Aiel" is not exactly a catchy turn-of-phrase that someone would casually pick up. And I highly doubt that Chosen or Dreadlord training includes classes on way-of-the-leaf Aiel that are so indepth you begin to forget what you know about them and believe that's the way they should be. If he got classes they'd be more historical, and I really don't see their education system being that in depth.

 

See I see it more like the way an adolescent might pick up mannerisms and catch-phrases that someone they look up to uses. The memes of the Wheel of Time, if you will. If Taim were young enough when training began--and indeed, he probably would have been. Ishamael learnt the Dragon had been reborn about sixteen years prior to the beginning of the story, and would have began testing and training Darkfriends to be Dreadlords at around the same time (much the same as he must have done during the Trolloc Wars), at which time Taim would have been at that impressionable age.

 

Indeed, casual pejoratives like that are not taught, they're absorbed. It's likely the same reason Taim uses the red on black, and the fist and three lightning bolts that Be'lal and Sammael have used in the past.

 

I do understand, but that's what I was trying to get at when I mentioned catchy turns of phrases. I know I pick up sayings or ways of saying things from my friends. But "so-called" just seems like it needs that personal background knowledge, otherwise it would be meaningless to the speaker and then why would they repeat it? Why would he say it if he didn't know what it meant? And would they really be talking about the Aiel so often that it would be picked up subconsciously and not need to know what he was talking about? I think that would require a Sith Lord type mentoring bond with Ishy, and I don't see that as being very likely.

 

So it's certainly possible, I don't claim it's not, but it just seems so much more likely he had heard crazy stories about Aiel and had never seen a real one before. But of course then you have to believe RJ wrote in a coincidence with that exact term, which might be more unbelievable? I don't know, you're the writing style pro.