Taim - Chosen

[fyodor]

So-called Aiel" is not exactly a catchy turn-of-phrase that someone would casually pick up. And I highly doubt that Chosen or Dreadlord training includes classes on way-of-the-leaf Aiel that are so indepth you begin to forget what you know about them and believe that's the way they should be. If he got classes they'd be more historical, and I really don't see their education system being that in depth.

 

More than likely he was referring to the crazy stories about Aiel. I mean the guy's from Saldaea... so Aiel are likely 10 feet tall fire breathing man eaters. Thus, these relatively normal looking guys are "so-called Aiel".

 

Or you can buy into my wishful thinking theory that Taim is from the AoL. But otherwise, I don't see how he'd pick it up, I don't think it's like a Sith Lord mentorship program.

 

Have we seen anyone else express doubt that the people with Rand are Aiel? Do any of the other Saldeans express doubt on this score? Let alone someone as wordly and educated as Taim? Even much more provincial characters (like the two rivers folks that meet Gaul and Bain and Chiad) have no trouble accepting them as Aiel.

 

Also, at the end of LoC he calls *Rand's* Aiel "renegade Aiel."

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=owkKhVCq6f0C&lpg=PP1&dq=lord%20of%20chaos&pg=PA977#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

He's clearly operating from the Age of Legends view that the Aiel follow the Way of the Leaf and those who have abanoned it are "renegades"

 

All the stuff with him adopting the forsaken lightning bolt logos and Moridin's color scheme clearly imply a longer association than the last few months (if not AOL origins).

[GYLD]

I think that if Taim probably was always a Darkfriend. His "so-called Aiel" comment in LoC is a Forsaken giveaway. So if he's not from the Age of Legends he was trained by someone who was.

 

That's not proof he was always a DF. To me that is an indication that he may have been trained by a Forsaken at some point. He could've been trained after he met Rand, and Rand forced him into a teaching role, rather than a military one.

 

Taim could've gone to Rand hoping to be the Dragon's right-hand man, and they could go around the world kicking Foresaken a** and blowing sh** up. But he shows up and Rand makes him the Principal rather than the warrior he thinks he is, and in Taim's mind, doesn't show him much respect.

 

"So-called Aiel" is not exactly a catchy turn-of-phrase that someone would casually pick up. And I highly doubt that Chosen or Dreadlord training includes classes on way-of-the-leaf Aiel that are so indepth you begin to forget what you know about them and believe that's the way they should be. If he got classes they'd be more historical, and I really don't see their education system being that in depth.

 

See I see it more like the way an adolescent might pick up mannerisms and catch-phrases that someone they look up to uses. The memes of the Wheel of Time, if you will. If Taim were young enough when training began--and indeed, he probably would have been. Ishamael learnt the Dragon had been reborn about sixteen years prior to the beginning of the story, and would have began testing and training Darkfriends to be Dreadlords at around the same time (much the same as he must have done during the Trolloc Wars), at which time Taim would have been at that impressionable age.

 

Indeed, casual pejoratives like that are not taught, they're absorbed. It's likely the same reason Taim uses the red on black, and the fist and three lightning bolts that Be'lal and Sammael have used in the past.

I do understand, but that's what I was trying to get at when I mentioned catchy turns of phrases. I know I pick up sayings or ways of saying things from my friends. But "so-called" just seems like it needs that personal background knowledge, otherwise it would be meaningless to the speaker and then why would they repeat it? Why would he say it if he didn't know what it meant? And would they really be talking about the Aiel so often that it would be picked up subconsciously and not need to know what he was talking about? I think that would require a Sith Lord type mentoring bond with Ishy, and I don't see that as being very likely.

 

If we're to assume Taim was trained under Ishamael, it would have been fairly recent after the Aiel War. We know Ishamael was active around that time from when he punished the former Black Ajah head and we know from RJ that Taim is only in his late 20s, so he couldn't have been taught before the war.The Aiel War was a huge deal that has only recently been overshadowed in Randland and with that in mind I don't think it'd be unreasonable for Taim to bring the Aiel up in one way or another and for Ishamael to then briefly educate him. Ishamael is a philosopher, he likes to hear himself talk.

[Luckers]

I think that if Taim probably was always a Darkfriend. His "so-called Aiel" comment in LoC is a Forsaken giveaway. So if he's not from the Age of Legends he was trained by someone who was.

 

That's not proof he was always a DF. To me that is an indication that he may have been trained by a Forsaken at some point. He could've been trained after he met Rand, and Rand forced him into a teaching role, rather than a military one.

 

Taim could've gone to Rand hoping to be the Dragon's right-hand man, and they could go around the world kicking Foresaken a** and blowing sh** up. But he shows up and Rand makes him the Principal rather than the warrior he thinks he is, and in Taim's mind, doesn't show him much respect.

 

"So-called Aiel" is not exactly a catchy turn-of-phrase that someone would casually pick up. And I highly doubt that Chosen or Dreadlord training includes classes on way-of-the-leaf Aiel that are so indepth you begin to forget what you know about them and believe that's the way they should be. If he got classes they'd be more historical, and I really don't see their education system being that in depth.

 

See I see it more like the way an adolescent might pick up mannerisms and catch-phrases that someone they look up to uses. The memes of the Wheel of Time, if you will. If Taim were young enough when training began--and indeed, he probably would have been. Ishamael learnt the Dragon had been reborn about sixteen years prior to the beginning of the story, and would have began testing and training Darkfriends to be Dreadlords at around the same time (much the same as he must have done during the Trolloc Wars), at which time Taim would have been at that impressionable age.

 

Indeed, casual pejoratives like that are not taught, they're absorbed. It's likely the same reason Taim uses the red on black, and the fist and three lightning bolts that Be'lal and Sammael have used in the past.

 

I do understand, but that's what I was trying to get at when I mentioned catchy turns of phrases. I know I pick up sayings or ways of saying things from my friends. But "so-called" just seems like it needs that personal background knowledge, otherwise it would be meaningless to the speaker and then why would they repeat it? Why would he say it if he didn't know what it meant? And would they really be talking about the Aiel so often that it would be picked up subconsciously and not need to know what he was talking about? I think that would require a Sith Lord type mentoring bond with Ishy, and I don't see that as being very likely.

 

So it's certainly possible, I don't claim it's not, but it just seems so much more likely he had heard crazy stories about Aiel and had never seen a real one before. But of course then you have to believe RJ wrote in a coincidence with that exact term, which might be more unbelievable? I don't know, you're the writing style pro.

 

Think of it more like a father/son or 'teacher/young student' relationship than a 'within a group of friends' conversation--within a group of friends the people are usually of equal life-experience. In an older to younger relationship, the younger may well still be building a world-view. Assimilating opinions and--specifically--pejorative slurs is a natural part of that.

 

In effect, by picking up the Forsaken's contemptuos attitude toward another group, Taim identifies himself with the Forsaken, elevating himself in the simple 'them' and 'us' kind of association.

 

So yeah, in effect what I'm saying is that it needn't actually have anything to do with the history of the Aiel. Oh, Taim may have been told that, and it may superficially inform his comment, but the real reason he'd adopt it is the same reason any child adopts their parents prejudices. Mimicry, and a misplaced sense of belonging.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Like Taim has blue Dragons on his coat. And adopts the Gauntlet and Lightning bolt sigil. And copies names out of the Old Tongue.

 

Taim is a mimic. It is not unusal for him to mimic other information.

 

And he likes to feel better than everyone else. If one of the Forsaken tell him about the Aiel, sure as hell he is going to use "so-called" Aiel as much as he can. Just to show - even if only to himself - he knows what others do not. So he can feel above them, something special and unique. Which is one of the reasons he proclaimed himself as Dragon in the first place.

[skyfirex]

This is my belief also, however some believe Taim to be Moridin., and even a select few who believe that Taim is Be'lal recycled using the 'very small balefire allows transmigration' loophole.

 

Taim as Be'lal reborn doesn't add up. Be'lal was an AOL blademaster, while Taim is contemptuous of mundane weapons.

[Vels]

I am re-reading the series and am now reading LoC. The series of events leading up to Taim giving Rand the DOs seal doesnt sit right.

 

According to Taim, he was given the seal by some farmer after he had declared himself a false dragon and (I assume) prior to his capture by AS. Then he gets captured and escapes. Did he have the seal on him when he was captured and they just let him keep it? Or did he escape, run back to his hideout and get the seal, then run south from Bashere's army, then hear about Rand's amnesty then seek him out to give him the seal? It doesn't seem likely that after his escape from AS he would be thinking about the seal.

 

It seems to me either:

 

1. he received the seal after his escape which couldn't be since no one would believe him to be the DR after Falme and he told Rand the farmer thought he was the DR.

 

OR

 

2. he was lying about where he received it and made up a believable story to tell Rand. If he is lying it supports the argument that he was always a DF (or Forsaken).

 

Another crazy theory I just thought of is what if the known Forsaken aren't the only Forsaken? It is mentioned throughout the books that records were destroyed in the breaking, the trolloc wars and the war of hundred years. Maybe the world forgot about one of the Forsaken? But this isn't likely because you would think one of the other Forsaken would think about this during their PoV, and also Lews Therin's ravings would have probably mentioned another Forsaken.

[fikkie77]

Taim was probably trained by a Forsaken (probably Ishy). But well, that theory isn't much fun.

 

How about what Vels says: whatif he's an AOL Forsaken? Even if I don't believe that to be true, how could it possibly be?

1. How do 3rd Age people know there are 13 Forsaken? There were far more, so how did they know exactly these thirteen were trapped? Not by account of the 100 Companions: they were either dead or utterly insane. So it must be something the female and not-yet-insane male Aes Sedai most have added up according to what happened after the Sealing (13 bad guys were missing). They were wrong at least partially about Ishy, couldn't they have been wrong about other Forsaken as well?

2. There are ways to conserve a human being during the entire Third Age. One of the many Forsaken could have been trapped inside a vacuole and have been lucky to get out near the end of the Third Age. His entrapment could have been out of punishment, by accident or to flee the onslaught of the Breaking. Well, let's be clear, Taim is not the fleeing kind. Another are stasis boxes. For the same reasons as being trapped in a vacuole, Taim could have been trapped inside a stasis-box. Millenia later Ishy found it and set Taim up as a false Dragon.

 

So yeah, it could be done: conserving an AOL Forsaken for the end of the Third Age. But I think it to be unlikely. The problem is that it wouldn't stick with just one. If Forsaken were hiding in stasis-boxes, we would have seen more. We would have probably seen them at the Cleansing. Which gives a huge problem with the whole 'Taim is a 2nd or 3rd Age Forsaken) idea: if he was at that high rank, he would for certain have to show up at the Cleansing! And he would have to show up in the various Forsaken meetings we have seen.

I think he's a high-ranking DF, probably slightly under the Forsaken rank. He serves Moridin, which shows in his sigil, manners and naming the Aiel 'so-called Aiel'.

The seal was probably found by Ishy (he must have found at least one in all those years and studied it) and given to Taim for leverage with Rand.

[Lacanos]

So-called Aiel" is not exactly a catchy turn-of-phrase that someone would casually pick up. And I highly doubt that Chosen or Dreadlord training includes classes on way-of-the-leaf Aiel that are so indepth you begin to forget what you know about them and believe that's the way they should be. If he got classes they'd be more historical, and I really don't see their education system being that in depth.

 

More than likely he was referring to the crazy stories about Aiel. I mean the guy's from Saldaea... so Aiel are likely 10 feet tall fire breathing man eaters. Thus, these relatively normal looking guys are "so-called Aiel".

 

Or you can buy into my wishful thinking theory that Taim is from the AoL. But otherwise, I don't see how he'd pick it up, I don't think it's like a Sith Lord mentorship program.

 

Have we seen anyone else express doubt that the people with Rand are Aiel? Do any of the other Saldeans express doubt on this score? Let alone someone as wordly and educated as Taim? Even much more provincial characters (like the two rivers folks that meet Gaul and Bain and Chiad) have no trouble accepting them as Aiel.

 

Also, at the end of LoC he calls *Rand's* Aiel "renegade Aiel."

 

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

 

He's clearly operating from the Age of Legends view that the Aiel follow the Way of the Leaf and those who have abanoned it are "renegades"

 

All the stuff with him adopting the forsaken lightning bolt logos and Moridin's color scheme clearly imply a longer association than the last few months (if not AOL origins).

 

He's referring to the Shaido as "renegade Aiel"

[jwood01]

Taim was probably trained by a Forsaken (probably Ishy). But well, that theory isn't much fun.

 

How about what Vels says: whatif he's an AOL Forsaken? Even if I don't believe that to be true, how could it possibly be?

1. How do 3rd Age people know there are 13 Forsaken? There were far more, so how did they know exactly these thirteen were trapped? Not by account of the 100 Companions: they were either dead or utterly insane. So it must be something the female and not-yet-insane male Aes Sedai most have added up according to what happened after the Sealing (13 bad guys were missing). They were wrong at least partially about Ishy, couldn't they have been wrong about other Forsaken as well?

2. There are ways to conserve a human being during the entire Third Age. One of the many Forsaken could have been trapped inside a vacuole and have been lucky to get out near the end of the Third Age. His entrapment could have been out of punishment, by accident or to flee the onslaught of the Breaking. Well, let's be clear, Taim is not the fleeing kind. Another are stasis boxes. For the same reasons as being trapped in a vacuole, Taim could have been trapped inside a stasis-box. Millenia later Ishy found it and set Taim up as a false Dragon.

 

So yeah, it could be done: conserving an AOL Forsaken for the end of the Third Age. But I think it to be unlikely. The problem is that it wouldn't stick with just one. If Forsaken were hiding in stasis-boxes, we would have seen more. We would have probably seen them at the Cleansing. Which gives a huge problem with the whole 'Taim is a 2nd or 3rd Age Forsaken) idea: if he was at that high rank, he would for certain have to show up at the Cleansing! And he would have to show up in the various Forsaken meetings we have seen.

I think he's a high-ranking DF, probably slightly under the Forsaken rank. He serves Moridin, which shows in his sigil, manners and naming the Aiel 'so-called Aiel'.

The seal was probably found by Ishy (he must have found at least one in all those years and studied it) and given to Taim for leverage with Rand.

 

He could be a new chosen even if he isn't invited to those meetings, no? If Moridin reveals Taim as a new chosen, then the AoL chosen may band together, however briefly, to destroy Taim. This would be horrible for the shadow considering Taim has been more successful (that we know of) at subverting the forces of light than many of the AoL chosen. Also, weren't there rankings amongst the chosen in the AoL? There were the 13 that ended up being sealed, and plenty more lower ranked ones that weren't at that meeting at Shayol Ghul?

[Vels]

Just throwing this one out there...

 

What if Taim is one of the 100 Companions who was accidentally sucked into the Bore during the sealing. He escaped around the same time as the other Forsaken and, seeing all the strife around the world, thought it was up to him to lead the world against the Shadow. This obviously didn't work so he joined up with his old leader reborn in Rand. He could foresee Rand's upcoming defeat and decided to finally jump ship and join the Shadow.

 

Perhaps the seal he had was sucked into the Bore with him...

 

This would explain his attitude towards the Aiel and how he didn't 'seem' like a bad guy at the beginning.

[Lacanos]

What do people mean by "New Age Chosen"?

Chosen was a term used by AoL Aes Sedai who had turned to the Dark One to describe themselves. Likewise, Forsaken was the term used by the "Light" side to describe them.

 

Presumably you merely are referring to a high-ranking and powerful Darkfriend channeler. In which case, it's obvious that this is what Taim is. I doubt he's recognised by the "real" Chosen as being on their level, particularly with how contemptous they are all portrayed as being of this time.

[Maleshub]

What do people mean by "New Age Chosen"?

Chosen was a term used by AoL Aes Sedai who had turned to the Dark One to describe themselves. Likewise, Forsaken was the term used by the "Light" side to describe them.

 

Presumably you merely are referring to a high-ranking and powerful Darkfriend channeler. In which case, it's obvious that this is what Taim is. I doubt he's recognised by the "real" Chosen as being on their level, particularly with how contemptous they are all portrayed as being of this time.

 

A Chosen would have walked to the Pit of Doom in Shayol Ghul and selected to as one of the candidates for Na'eblis. That's no "high ranking DF channeler: e.g. Galina Casban." The Chosen are like Sauron's Nazgul.

[Lacanos]

What do people mean by "New Age Chosen"?

Chosen was a term used by AoL Aes Sedai who had turned to the Dark One to describe themselves. Likewise, Forsaken was the term used by the "Light" side to describe them.

 

Presumably you merely are referring to a high-ranking and powerful Darkfriend channeler. In which case, it's obvious that this is what Taim is. I doubt he's recognised by the "real" Chosen as being on their level, particularly with how contemptous they are all portrayed as being of this time.

 

A Chosen would have walked to the Pit of Doom in Shayol Ghul and selected to as one of the candidates for Na'eblis. That's no "high ranking DF channeler: e.g. Galina Casban." The Chosen are like Sauron's Nazgul.

 

That doesn't really mean anything. By that logic, I could argue that Fain is one of the Chosen.

 

"Selected as one of the candidates for Nae'blis" - doesn't seem likely for Taim. He's too....inexperienced.

[Maleshub]

What do people mean by "New Age Chosen"?

Chosen was a term used by AoL Aes Sedai who had turned to the Dark One to describe themselves. Likewise, Forsaken was the term used by the "Light" side to describe them.

 

Presumably you merely are referring to a high-ranking and powerful Darkfriend channeler. In which case, it's obvious that this is what Taim is. I doubt he's recognised by the "real" Chosen as being on their level, particularly with how contemptous they are all portrayed as being of this time.

 

A Chosen would have walked to the Pit of Doom in Shayol Ghul and selected to as one of the candidates for Na'eblis. That's no "high ranking DF channeler: e.g. Galina Casban." The Chosen are like Sauron's Nazgul.

 

That doesn't really mean anything. By that logic, I could argue that Fain is one of the Chosen.

 

"Selected as one of the candidates for Nae'blis" - doesn't seem likely for Taim. He's too....inexperienced.

 

Fain was distilled by Ba'alzamon, not the DO; or so I think. But even if he was a Chosen, he isn't called the "renegade" for nothing.

 

As to Taim's competence, how is it worse than Moghedien's or Asmodean's or Be'lal's or Aginor's? On the contrary, he is supplying the DO with the largest brood of battle channelers. And that is the Shadow's greatest weakness.

 

Regardless, I was just pointing to the difference between a Chosen and a high-ranking DF.

[Lacanos]

What do people mean by "New Age Chosen"?

Chosen was a term used by AoL Aes Sedai who had turned to the Dark One to describe themselves. Likewise, Forsaken was the term used by the "Light" side to describe them.

 

Presumably you merely are referring to a high-ranking and powerful Darkfriend channeler. In which case, it's obvious that this is what Taim is. I doubt he's recognised by the "real" Chosen as being on their level, particularly with how contemptous they are all portrayed as being of this time.

 

A Chosen would have walked to the Pit of Doom in Shayol Ghul and selected to as one of the candidates for Na'eblis. That's no "high ranking DF channeler: e.g. Galina Casban." The Chosen are like Sauron's Nazgul.

 

That doesn't really mean anything. By that logic, I could argue that Fain is one of the Chosen.

 

"Selected as one of the candidates for Nae'blis" - doesn't seem likely for Taim. He's too....inexperienced.

 

Fain was distilled by Ba'alzamon, not the DO; or so I think. But even if he was a Chosen, he isn't called the "renegade" for nothing.

 

As to Taim's competence, how is it worse than Moghedien's or Asmodean's or Be'lal's or Aginor's? On the contrary, he is supplying the DO with the largest brood of battle channelers. And that is the Shadow's greatest weakness.

 

Regardless, I was just pointing to the difference between a Chosen and a high-ranking DF.

But it's a made up criteria. That's not what being a Chosen is.

Even arguing your side, a member of the Chosen would have the ability to command Shadowspawn etc, which Taim does as far as we can deduce.

 

But that doesn't deal with the fact that none of the "other" Chosen would recognise him as such. They'd see him as beneath them.

[Maleshub]

1- But it's a made up criteria. That's not what being a Chosen is.

Even arguing your side, a member of the Chosen would have the ability to command Shadowspawn etc, which Taim does as far as we can deduce.

 

2- But that doesn't deal with the fact that none of the "other" Chosen would recognise him as such. They'd see him as beneath them.

 

1- It was criteria deduced from reading the books. I didn't make it up without basis. We know that all references in the book of summons to Shayol Ghul are exclusively for the Foresaken. So, the DO only interacts and bestows his glorious presence, on the select Chosen. And if Taim was chosen to take that walk, then he is a Chosen.

 

2- Each of the "bona fide" Chosen views all others as below him/her. They won't react to Taim differently from reacting to each other.

 

But I guess every one reads the books differently and still enjoys them tremendously!

[fyodor]

 

 

He's referring to the Shaido as "renegade Aiel"

 

He isn't. Rhuarc and Perrin want Rand to go help Rand's Aiel who came to rescue him.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=owkKhVCq6f0C&lpg=PP1&dq=lord%20of%20chaos&pg=PA977#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

Taim says "My Lord Dragon, I would say there are still several hundred Shaido women out there, some not insignificant it seems. And that is not to mention some thousands of Shaido with spears. Unless you truly want to find out whether you are immortal, I suggest waiting a few hours until we know this place well enough to make gateways with some certainty where they will come out, then leaving. There are casualties in battle. I lost several soldiers today, nine men who will be harder to replace than any number of renegade Aiel. Whoever dies out there, dies for the Dragon Reborn."

 

Why would Rand need to replace the Shaido? Why would the Shaido be dying for the Dragon Reborn? Rhuarc and Perrin want to save *Rand's* Aiel and Taim is saying that his men are more valuable/hard to replace than Rand's Aiel. It doesn't make any sense for Taim to mean that the "renegade" Aiel are Shaido. He's talking about the regular Aiel, who have abandoned the way of the leaf.

[TristanWebb]

He is saying it isn't worth killing a thousand shaido if it costs the life of a single asha'man

[Lacanos]

He is saying it isn't worth killing a thousand shaido if it costs the life of a single asha'man

 

This is how I've always read it also, but I might be wrong.

 

1- But it's a made up criteria. That's not what being a Chosen is.

Even arguing your side, a member of the Chosen would have the ability to command Shadowspawn etc, which Taim does as far as we can deduce.

 

2- But that doesn't deal with the fact that none of the "other" Chosen would recognise him as such. They'd see him as beneath them.

 

1- It was criteria deduced from reading the books. I didn't make it up without basis. We know that all references in the book of summons to Shayol Ghul are exclusively for the Foresaken. So, the DO only interacts and bestows his glorious presence, on the select Chosen. And if Taim was chosen to take that walk, then he is a Chosen.

 

2- Each of the "bona fide" Chosen views all others as below him/her. They won't react to Taim differently from reacting to each other.

 

But I guess every one reads the books differently and still enjoys them tremendously!

 

The others do recognise each other as Chosen though.

That said, I suppose another good criteria would be whether they've been granted immortality or at some point had access to the True Power. We don't know about the former, but there's signs indicating the latter.

[Barid Bel Medar]

They have not been granted immortality. They hope to gain it, but only if the DO gives it to them.

 

There is a definition of "Chosen" you could use. But the 13 will always be individual and unique.

 

Forsaken: The name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of Power.

 

Dreadlords: The name given to channellers who served the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars (and used ever since)

 

 

Chosen: The name the Forsaken call themselves. They do not consider the Dreadlords to be on their level. The thing that sets the 13 apart, aside from being from the AoL, is the DO's mark which allows them to command Shadowspawn. It is not like a compulsion over the Shadowspawn, more liek the DO's mark of Rank. Like a VIP. The Shadowspawn would do best to serve them.

 

Thus, the only thing Taim needs to do to have the same status and power as the "Chosen" is recieve this Mark over Shadowspawn. This is granted at Shayol Ghul,

 

 

Have a look through this, it makes the term "Chosen" clearer.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php

[Lacanos]

They have not been granted immortality. They hope to gain it, but only if the DO gives it to them.

 

There is a definition of "Chosen" you could use. But the 13 will always be individual and unique.

 

Forsaken: The name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of Power.

 

Dreadlords: The name given to channellers who served the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars (and used ever since)

 

 

Chosen: The name the Forsaken call themselves. They do not consider the Dreadlords to be on their level. The thing that sets the 13 apart, aside from being from the AoL, is the DO's mark which allows them to command Shadowspawn. It is not like a compulsion over the Shadowspawn, more liek the DO's mark of Rank. Like a VIP. The Shadowspawn would do best to serve them.

 

Thus, the only thing Taim needs to do to have the same status and power as the "Chosen" is recieve this Mark over Shadowspawn. This is granted at Shayol Ghul,

 

 

Have a look through this, it makes the term "Chosen" clearer.

 

http://www.theorylan...ntvsresults.php

 

The link hasn't worked, but after a quick search for "Chosen mark" I think I finally get where this thread is coming from. Cheers.

That said, I thought it was fairly evident that the Chosen have been granted immortal - or at least endless life spans? Otherwise Ishamael for one would have died from his various escapes from the Bore into the real world?

[Luckers]

What do people mean by "New Age Chosen"?

Chosen was a term used by AoL Aes Sedai who had turned to the Dark One to describe themselves. Likewise, Forsaken was the term used by the "Light" side to describe them.

 

Presumably you merely are referring to a high-ranking and powerful Darkfriend channeler. In which case, it's obvious that this is what Taim is. I doubt he's recognised by the "real" Chosen as being on their level, particularly with how contemptous they are all portrayed as being of this time.

 

In modern terms, I would say that a 'New Age Chosen' is a Third Age person who has been given the Chosen Mark.

 

This is a thing done by the Dark One, or even just Shaidar Haren (he was able to give a 'lesser version of the mark' [RJ's words] to Alviarin). The surviving Second Age Chosen would have no voice in the matter--except maybe Moridin.

 

But that doesn't deal with the fact that none of the "other" Chosen would recognise him as such. They'd see him as beneath them.

 

Indeed, and that may be largely why it's been kept secret from them. But, if push came to shove and the Dark One saw reason to make his New Chosen clear, I've no doubt he'd do it with great prejudice. Say, a session in a rape dungeon with Shaidar Haren?

 

That said, I thought it was fairly evident that the Chosen have been granted immortal - or at least endless life spans? Otherwise Ishamael for one would have died from his various escapes from the Bore into the real world?

 

They have not. Here is RJ speaking on the issue

 

Question

To go back to what you were saying a few minutes ago, were you implying that you could channel the True Power without being granted immortality?

 

Robert Jordan

Oh yes.

 

QUESTION

Aren't the Forsaken already ...

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. They're not immortal.

 

QUESTION

Do they know that?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, they know that.

 

QUESTION

But they believe they are immortal.

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be. All they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this. This is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant them immortality. And they believe this because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life. Give the dead new bodies. Transfer souls from a dying body into a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this. So they know that can be done. So it's not as though they are believing something, somebody just walked up to you and said "I can make you immortal if you go out and do this, kill and do awful deeds". They've seen him, they have seen these incredible things done. So they have reason to believe.

[fyodor]

He is saying it isn't worth killing a thousand shaido if it costs the life of a single asha'man

 

No one was talking about killing Shaido when he made that statement.. Perrin and Rhuarc were telling Rand that Rand's Aiel were trapped out there and were going to die. They weren't telling Rand how awesome it would be to kill all those Shaido. Taim then kicks in and points out that his men would be much harder to replace than any number of "renegade Aiel."

 

It's a total non-sequitor for Taim to try to convince Rand that Ashaman would be much harder to replace than Shaido. He's telling him that it will be much easier to replace Rand's "Renegade Aiel" (the ones that Rhuarc and Perrin were just talking about, who were in danger) than the Ashaman.

 

Immediately after saying that the "renegade Aiel" will be hard to replace he then says "whoever dies out there dies for the Dragon Reborn." Are the Shaido dying for the Dragon Reborn?

 

Taim says "My Lord Dragon, I would say there are still several hundred Shaido women out there, some not insignificant it seems. And that is not to mention some thousands of Shaido with spears. Unless you truly want to find out whether you are immortal, I suggest waiting a few hours until we know this place well enough to make gateways with some certainty where they will come out, then leaving. There are casualties in battle. I lost several soldiers today, nine men who will be harder to replace than any number of renegade Aiel. Whoever dies out there, dies for the Dragon Reborn."

[fyodor]

I should note that "Forsaken" was the term for all of the AOL channelers who went to the Dark One.

 

nterview: Jan 25th, 2005

 

TOR Questions of the Week Part II (Verbatim)

Week 12 Question

 

In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

Robert Jordan

 

 

First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current" Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male Aes Sedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail."

[Lacanos]

What do people mean by "New Age Chosen"?

Chosen was a term used by AoL Aes Sedai who had turned to the Dark One to describe themselves. Likewise, Forsaken was the term used by the "Light" side to describe them.

 

Presumably you merely are referring to a high-ranking and powerful Darkfriend channeler. In which case, it's obvious that this is what Taim is. I doubt he's recognised by the "real" Chosen as being on their level, particularly with how contemptous they are all portrayed as being of this time.

 

In modern terms, I would say that a 'New Age Chosen' is a Third Age person who has been given the Chosen Mark.

 

This is a thing done by the Dark One, or even just Shaidar Haren (he was able to give a 'lesser version of the mark' [RJ's words] to Alviarin). The surviving Second Age Chosen would have no voice in the matter--except maybe Moridin.

 

But that doesn't deal with the fact that none of the "other" Chosen would recognise him as such. They'd see him as beneath them.

 

Indeed, and that may be largely why it's been kept secret from them. But, if push came to shove and the Dark One saw reason to make his New Chosen clear, I've no doubt he'd do it with great prejudice. Say, a session in a rape dungeon with Shaidar Haren?

 

That said, I thought it was fairly evident that the Chosen have been granted immortal - or at least endless life spans? Otherwise Ishamael for one would have died from his various escapes from the Bore into the real world?

 

They have not. Here is RJ speaking on the issue

 

Question

To go back to what you were saying a few minutes ago, were you implying that you could channel the True Power without being granted immortality?

 

Robert Jordan

Oh yes.

 

QUESTION

Aren't the Forsaken already ...

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. They're not immortal.

 

QUESTION

Do they know that?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes, they know that.

 

QUESTION

But they believe they are immortal.

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be. All they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this. This is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant them immortality. And they believe this because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life. Give the dead new bodies. Transfer souls from a dying body into a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this. So they know that can be done. So it's not as though they are believing something, somebody just walked up to you and said "I can make you immortal if you go out and do this, kill and do awful deeds". They've seen him, they have seen these incredible things done. So they have reason to believe.

 

Alright, that clears up what we're talking about - totally forgot about the "Chosen Mark". Thanks Luckers and Barid for that.

 

I know this goes more than a little off-topic, but how do we therefore explain the lifespan Ishamael seems to have had then? As he, if free for multiple period of 40 years in the period between being sealed away and the escape of the Forsaken, and having likely been into his middle years during the AoL, would otherwise surely be dead? Should we assume that the TP has a similar but more potent life-elongating effect to the OP?