Healing Death

[Goldstar]

I'm curious about this topic. Throughout the series, Nyn has made rather obvious allusions to wanting to heal death. In TSR we actually see Rand attempt this. However, Rand's abilities were unrefined and he had little skill with healing at this time. Nyn, however, has much more ability in Healing, and has exceptional strength and control with her channeling. Later in the series, we see the Mindtraps, the cour'souvra, which has the ability to trap a soul within it. The biggest problem I can see with healing death, is that eventually the soul will leave the body. However, with the cour'souvra, or similar ter'angreal (Made by Elayne?), the soul could be trapped long enough to heal the body, and heal the soul back into it. Rand must die at Shayol Ghul, as it would seem. This is also the only place a cour'souvra can be activated, due to the weakness of reality there. If Rand's soul is trapped in the Mindtrap, then is there a possibility that his death could be healed?

[Dagon Thyne]

I'm curious about this topic. Throughout the series, Nyn has made rather obvious allusions to wanting to heal death. In TSR we actually see Rand attempt this. However, Rand's abilities were unrefined and he had little skill with healing at this time. Nyn, however, has much more ability in Healing, and has exceptional strength and control with her channeling. Later in the series, we see the Mindtraps, the cour'souvra, which has the ability to trap a soul within it. The biggest problem I can see with healing death, is that eventually the soul will leave the body. However, with the cour'souvra, or similar ter'angreal (Made by Elayne?), the soul could be trapped long enough to heal the body, and heal the soul back into it. Rand must die at Shayol Ghul, as it would seem. This is also the only place a cour'souvra can be activated, due to the weakness of reality there. If Rand's soul is trapped in the Mindtrap, then is there a possibility that his death could be healed?

 

I beleive RJ has already said that reviving the dead is not possible. Not even the Dark is is able to revive someone who is dead.

[narg75]

This is probably one of the most anticipated things left to see, yeah I know there are a bunch of others. But death realy comes down to what deffenition you are using. Our current world view of what death is, is very different from WoT view due to our medical know how. For example, Mat hanging from the tree. WoT view point you can argue he was, but our view point we know better. Is this how we are going to see Rand resurected? Where they think he is dead, but from our medical knowlege we know better any Nyneave heals him. Or will he be dead as a door nail and brought back. We have seen people brought back through balefire. Is that healing the dead? It will be very interesting to read what happens. I am sure there are lots of surprises left to be seen.

[rand4747]

it depends if the soul can be retrieved or not, if you can sustain the body and somehow retrieve the soul it may be possible, or stop the soul leaving in the first place.

[lenardo]

Can "death" be healed, imo it all depends on the healer and the ability.

 

take drowning a person can drown-lets say its thru ice drowning-ie REALLY COLD WATER- and be revived an hr later, was the person DEAD prior to being revived, Yes.

 

 

 

thus in real life dead people Can be revived, transposing this onto the dragonverse, in my opinion,

 

prior to nynaeve doing it, Stilling/severing/gentling COULD NOT BE HEALED, yet she could do it, and now others can do it...

 

since nynaeve can delve deeper than- well pretty much anyone- she MAY be able to find the spirit threads that are fraying/dying/being cut as the soul leaves the body and goes into "spirit world/wolf world/ ter whatever i am not looking it up" and stop the severing process, then heal the cut binding the soul to the body still then healing the body, restarting the heart, reviving the person.

 

will it happen? no idea, could it happen, depends on what the author choses to do, it is ultimately up to the creator (author) of the universe as to whether or not it can be done.

[Sharaman]

The souls of Heroes of the Horn (and of wolves) are stored in TAR in-between lives.

Moggy demonstrated that such souls could be ripped out and somehow become corporeal bodies, with Brigitte.

Hence it should certainly be possible to do it with Rand-Ltt since he is a certified HotH.

Other souls ?? AFAIK, only the GLoD and only under specific circumstances can, and that too, only by dumping them in other bodies.

[Goldstar]

Sharaman brings up a good point, in that Rand's soul could be revived from TAR. Is it possible that Rand could use the True Power to fish a soul from a cour'souvra into a body?

[CauthonsLuck]

I beleive RJ has already said that reviving the dead is not possible. Not even the Dark is is able to revive someone who is dead.

 

Well actually, the DO did revive the forsaken sooo....

[Fliggerty]

I've thought about this a lot too. There are several seemingly off-hand references to Nynaeve not being satisfied until she heals someone 3 days dead, and taking death as a personal affront since it can't be healed.

 

Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to know how it works, and she saw Moghedian rip Birgitte out of TaR. So we can assume that she knows how to do that. I think that using a combination of that and her new healing, it isn't far fetched to suppose that she will be able to heal death at some point, at least with someone bound to the wheel.

[Rose]

We've had so many references to it (how many times did somebody say that death cannot be healed?) that it almost makes me believe it will happen. I really hope it doesn't though, at least not in the sense of getting a dead body to suddenly come back to life. It wouldn't feel right to me. Something related to TAR however, why not. But literally reviving a dead body, I wouldn't like that.

[michael.clinton83]

Well actually, the DO did revive the forsaken sooo....

 

Not exactly. He places their souls in new bodies. Ishamael died, but his soul was put into a new body as Moridin. Same for Lanfear into Cyndane, and Balthamel/Aginor into Aran'gar/Osan'gar.

 

If Rand were to die, his body would be permanently dead (save balefire undoing his death). That's not to say he couldn't be transmigrated into a new body. This is actually a much discussed theory (search Fisher King).

 

Given Rand is missing a hand, has 2 unhealable wounds in his side, has the black madness thorns (albeit covered by the white 'shield') etc, it's believed by many that he will need a new body to continue on. Many people believe in some way this will be Moridin given their 'link' since crossing balefire streams.

 

Personally, I could see this happening and take it a step further. Should Rand somehow find himself re-manifested in Moridin's body, he would then have the two mindtraps currently in Moridin's posession (Moggy and Cyndane) which would make things... quite interesting.

[Goldstar]

Well, as far as the Forsaken go, their bodies weren't exactly immediately recoverable. Balthamel's was turned into a tree by the Greenman, Aginor's was melted away by Rand, Lanfear had been drained to fast by the Finns, who knows what effect that had. Ishamael had been dead for quite a while before his body could have been recovered. EAsier to just place him in a new one. If Rand/someone important dies, and Nynaeve is right there, with a mindtrap/whatever for whatever reason, it may still work.

[Caveatar]

I'm curious about this topic. Throughout the series, Nyn has made rather obvious allusions to wanting to heal death. In TSR we actually see Rand attempt this. However, Rand's abilities were unrefined and he had little skill with healing at this time. Nyn, however, has much more ability in Healing, and has exceptional strength and control with her channeling. Later in the series, we see the Mindtraps, the cour'souvra, which has the ability to trap a soul within it. The biggest problem I can see with healing death, is that eventually the soul will leave the body. However, with the cour'souvra, or similar ter'angreal (Made by Elayne?), the soul could be trapped long enough to heal the body, and heal the soul back into it. Rand must die at Shayol Ghul, as it would seem. This is also the only place a cour'souvra can be activated, due to the weakness of reality there. If Rand's soul is trapped in the Mindtrap, then is there a possibility that his death could be healed?

 

It is my personal opinion that Callandor is just such a device as the cour'souvra and that

Callandor will hold Rand's/LTT's soul at the first death.

 

Regarding Healing Death. The many times mentioned idea that 'Nynaeve would not be happy until

she had healed someone who was three days dead' always reminds me of Master Norry's almost joke

to Elayne. In Winter's Heart, chap 9 'A Cup of Tea, quoted from Leigh Butler's reread...

 

"....Norry has not asked which side of the split has Elayne’s allegiance, but he opines that it is “wise to be wary of Tar Valon’s anger.” Elayne is amazed at the stupidity of such a proclamation, since in her opinion no one could guide Rand “with a barge pole,” but Norry goes on to say that someone attacked the Sun Palace in Cairhien with the One Power, destroying most of the wing where Rand had his apartments, and Rand himself has vanished; many think that he has gone to submit to the White Tower, though a few think he is dead.

 

He paused, head tilted in thought. “From what I saw of him, my Lady,” he said slowly, “I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.”

She almost stared. That was very nearly a joke. A rough witticism, at least. From Halwin Norry!"

 

Possibly old Norry will get to sit three days with Rand's corpse before Nynaeve heals him.

If that happens in the book I will once again shake my head at the Robert Jordan foreshadowing

of EVERYTHING!

I also love Elane's opinion that "no one could guide Rand with a barge pole. :D Good insight Elayne.

[TheAngryDruid]

Well, I certainly think it is possible for the DO to do it, as we know the TO can put a soul into a new body. And the Creator does a similar thing with the souls of those bound to the wheel, the Heroes of the Horn.

 

Now, can a mortal do it, using some combination of a ter'angreal or other device that can trap a soul while the body is healed? Or some trick of TAR and a variation of the Moggy ripping Birgitte out weave? Perhaps.

[Ferdawoon]

Matt and Aviendha have been dead. They were killed by a lightningstorm created by Rhavin, I believe it was. Rand Balefired Rhavin and both matt and Aviendha was back alive.

 

Also, we in our age know the basics of how the human body works. We know that if you would weave lightning through the body to jumpstart the heart, if you would weave to oxyginate the brain and all the other organs, and other things like that. Then yes, you could revive someone. Not someone long dead, but indeed someone who have been dead for just a few minutes.

 

It is all about semantics. "Healing death" seem to mean "to revive someone who have almost started decaying" which it do not have to mean. People die all the time, or rather their hearts stop pumping, and are brought back by having someone beat on their chests to start the heart and force oxygen down their throat with mouth-to-mouth.

[Rose]

Rand tried that though, with the girl in TDR. He wove flows into her to make her hear beat and her lungs breathe. But it didn't work: when he stopped, she was still dead. I guess her body wasn't in a condition that would allow that to work. But I agree that it could be done, theoretically, if you see it that way.

 

Okay, now I'm picturing Nynaeve screaming "Clear !" and shocking Rand's heart with the One Power.

[Goldstar]

Also, he didn't find her right as she died, iirc. Her soul had had time to escape the body completely.

[Asgard Thorin]

Also, he didn't find her right as she died, iirc. Her soul had had time to escape the body completely.

Bringing someone back from the dead is one of the most difficult things to do in any storyline. In all the fantasy I've read, few have attempted to pull this off. It is something that could so easily be botched and ruin a perfectly good story. I.e. ruin the suspension of disbelief the reader has enacted just to read the story. And I don't think a mass no-one-has-to-die-because-we-can-cure-death angle has ever been done or should be done in fantasy writing. Therefore, I think we can take RJ at his word when he said Death cannot be Healed. The Balefire Effect is in fact effecting the reversal of death (it is rare to get to use 'effect' as a verb) but at a terrible risk to the Pattern. I doubt Rand will do it many more times.

[dEVabox]

Just a quick note on the cour'souvra and using the Choedan Kal: Don't forget what the book mentions at the time we see the cour'souvra being made. The cour'souvra can only be made at Shayol Ghul. Additionally, when the forsaken wake up from their new bodies, it is only located near to Shayol Ghul, no? (can't recall that last bit). Or if the area is not known I think we can assume that they got moved to the new bodies at Shayol Ghul.

 

So death healing? Not possible. If the Dark One can't do it at Shayol Ghul with malleable reality, then doubtful it can happen OUTSIDE of Shayol Ghul (other then the Creator). Soul transference? Another topic altogether, ;)

[Goldstar]

There was never anything saying that the DO couldn't heal death at Shayol Ghul, there was just no bodies left to heal.