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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Fliggerty

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  1. I decided to start my own thread instead of derailing the already solidly going current Demandred argument. :) It is well established that Demandred seems to think he always plays second fiddle to Lews Therin, and despises it. And an attitude like that can really wreak havoc on a person's perceptions....after all, that is why he went over to the Dark One in the first place when it comes down to it. So I have a suspicion that when Demandred was told to "let the Lord of Chaos rule," he didn't interpret it as most of us did and hear "let Rand run amok." Or any of the myriad other common Theoryland interpretations of that which abound. Perhaps he heard "you will rule as the Lord of Chaos!" And that is what he meant later when he said "my rule is secure." I did a full read-through, paying very close attention to all things Demandred, and am now starting again (just at the end of TEOFTW) and am paying very close attention to all references to activities of the dark, and also those seemingly off-hand rumors that seem to have little bearing to the story...until much later if at all. I think there are a number of these, specifically in Lord of Chaos, that could very well pertain to Demandred. For example, there is a scene in which some Wise Ones are speaking of rumors of war and strife happening in Shara. It never has any bearing on any events in the story, but it certainly does fit in the category of "chaos." There are so many little things that happen throughout that book, that supposedly can be attributed to one person or another....but are never really established. Like the Whitecloak assassination attempt on Rand for example. And things like the various rebellions against Rand beginning or really taking hold at this time, and Masema really starts to cause an uproar, and on an on and on. It's just one thing after another, and this really is just the beginning; or rather a beginning. To sum it all up, I don't think Demandred has been in any one specific place that we can point to, or impersonating any one person. Perhaps he has been somewhere raising an army, or several. That's sort of beside my point. I really don't think that his identity has remained a mystery so much because RJ has enjoyed making it a mystery, but rather because there hasn't really been a mystery to hide. He's just been off doing his own thing, poking his nose in here and there, being sneaky and making a mess of things, and being stealthy about it....in the way that we've been told Demandred does things (by proxy, right?) Demandred is The Lord of Chaos, and it does indeed seem that his rule is secure!
  2. Hey guys, There's one little thing about the healing of severing/stilling/gentling that I've never seen addressed anywhere that bugs me. Just an idea that I'd love to see some discussion and speculation on. And of course I'm sure it's nothing more than speculation, but it'd still be fun... So Siuan and Leanne were healed by Nynaeve, and because it was done by someone of the same gender, they were not restored back to their full potential. Do you think if they were stilled again, then healed by Flinn, their full potential would be restored? Of course the fear is that they would then just be healed to the new diminished capacity. That thought has long bugged me....
  3. I'm not entirely sure about that TBH. Much of the basis of The Great Hunt is that others want the power and glory that blowing the horn brings. I seem to recall a mention that the horn falling into the hands of the dark can lead to tragic results if it was blown. If a darkfriend blew the horn and the heroes would immediately turn on them for the sake of serving the DR, it wouldn't have been quite the problem it was made out to be.
  4. I think that the real nature of question centers around the Tuon and the Seanchan, not so much on Hawkwing. They seem to all but revere him, almost as a demigod rather than simply an ancestor. Isn't it likely that Tuon would see the apparition of Hawkwing himself as major omen of sorts? I can see such an event being a major game-changer on the part of the Seanchan should it occur.
  5. I've thought about this a lot too. There are several seemingly off-hand references to Nynaeve not being satisfied until she heals someone 3 days dead, and taking death as a personal affront since it can't be healed. Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to know how it works, and she saw Moghedian rip Birgitte out of TaR. So we can assume that she knows how to do that. I think that using a combination of that and her new healing, it isn't far fetched to suppose that she will be able to heal death at some point, at least with someone bound to the wheel.
  6. I just had a thought occur to me that I can't stop wondering about now. I wonder what you guys all think of it. :D So we know that Artur Hawkwing is one of the heroes that is called forth by the Horn of Valere. And it's pretty safe to assume that Mat will most likely blow the horn again during the last battle. It's probably also safe to assume that Tuon and/or other high ranking Seanchan blood might be there...whether fighting for/with or against Rand. So what do you think would happen if the Seanchan met Hakwing face to face? What if he went to Tuon and gave her some order or command? Is it feasible to assume that he would or could take over control of all the Seanchan forces? Would she submit to him?
  7. Hey guys, This thought recently came to me, and I can't seem to logically resolve this question on my own. It was mentioned somewhere that the Forsaken (actually I'm going to use "Chosen" in this context) were chosen not simply because they were strong in the Power, but also talented in other areas. They are generals, dream-walkers (sort of,) researchers, healers, artists, innovators, and much more. It certainly does make sense that you would want your supreme leaders to have many skills which set them apart from the masses. In LoC there are a few conversations among the Chosen about searching for caches of angreal and ter'angreal and such. They are obviously important to them to have, and for good reason. After all, Rand's fat little man angreal was the difference between defeating Asmodean and losing to him and losing the Choedan Kal access key. I wonder why they can't make their own? They are from the AoL, where angreal and such were prevalent, if not exactly common. Since they were so talented in other things, shouldn't it stand to reason one or more of the Chosen could create angreal? Now of course this all depends on the fact that it was never mentioned that they did make them. Perhaps one of them did and it wasn't stated explicitly. But if they did not, maybe it means there is something more required that was present or possible in the AoL that simply doesn't exist now. I suppose we may just have to wait and see what Elayne figures out.
  8. Overall it looks like it, and I'm in need of a good community. My Elder Scrolls community has lately become rather....shall we say "polluted?" So I definitely need a good place to hide out. I think that brings up a neat thought. It is mentioned numerous times that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to learn it, and she is obviously innovative of her own accord. Her "new healing" is based upon traditional healing weaves, but with her own additions. Perhaps, what she learned from Moghedien is the principle of how to take something from TAR and bring it into the real world. From there, she adapts that with her healing weaves, and is essentially able to heal Rand's body and retrieve his spirit from TAR and reunite them. Just a thought. On a bit of a tangent, but on the topic of ripping Birgitte out of TAR, I often wondered how it would work for her to do the same thing as entering TAR in the flesh and staying there. I always assumed that what happened to her was essentially the opposite of that.
  9. Wow...the first response I get is a bit of a personal lambaste. Kind of disappointing, and I hope not an indicator of the quality of this community. I never stated anything about what the idea would do to the quality of the story, nor that I have a preference in which way it would go. Just that I see some indications that is a possible outcome.
  10. Hey guys, I've been going through LoC with a fine-tooth comb the past few days (doing so for an entirely different reason I'll post about later.) Something just stood out to me that I wanted to bring up for discussion. Told from Elayne's POV, she is pondering on Nynaeve's efforts to study those who had been severed in order to heal them. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but she thought "Nynaeve won't be satisfied until she has healed someone 3 days dead." It was presented as a sort of passing thought, nothing of consequence. But if there's one thing we know about RJ, it's that he loves to give hints and clues in that way. So it got me thinking.... There have always basically been three things that were considered impossible to heal with the One Power: severing, death, and taint-induced madness. Nynaeve discovered how to heal severing, and shortly thereafter Flinn did the same. The first time I read through I thought that the concept of them both learning how to do it was simply a quick and not-well-thought-out plot device; but on subsequent readings and more thought on the matter it seems that it was deeply planned and intentional. For a long time I thought that the Wheel was working on bringing about a new Age of Legends, with Nynaeve's healings and Elayne's ter'angreal and traveling and such. Now I think that isn't the case exactly; the very concept of The Wheel of Time is that ages do repeat themselves, but they are different each time. It seems to me that the Wheel is indeed starting a new age, and bringing about not only old things that were lost and come again but new things as well. So both of them learning a new thing and healing severing at nearly the same time (speaking on a grand time scale) is not coincidental nor far-fetched in any way. It may very well be that healing severing WAS impossible prior to Nynaeve doing it, not just "undiscovered" as the general attitude towards it is. Robert Jordan weaves as Robert Jordan wills. Next, we move on to Nynaeve healing taint-induced madness. As far as the bits of story leading up to it, I thought it was rather obvious what was coming. She saw something that she knew was "wrong" and became somewhat obsessed with it. She studied it, experimented a bit, and healed it. I'm going to say this is most likely the same as above; healing the madness was studied by AoL Aes Sedai and continued on for years after the breaking, completely without success. Then along comes Nynaeve and it's no longer an insurmountable problem. Is it likely that she simply stumbled upon a particular combination of weaving the Power that no one had ever thought to try before? And is it unthinkable the effects of certain weaves can be changed if the Wheel wills it? And on to the final unhealable: death. Nynaeve obviously doesn't believe anyone who says something cannot be healed, and so doesn't let that attitude stop her from investigating. Flinn is obviously the same way, at least to a degree. I really think that Elayne's statement that Nynaeve will not be satisfied until healing someone 3 days dead is an example of foreshadowing, specifically of the last battle. Let's look at some facts: 1. WoT characters and events are often based on real world people and events and mythologies to a large degree. And of course the idea of someone coming back to life after 3 days...well, there's probably no need to elaborate on that. 2. According to prophecies, Rand's blood has to be spilled at Shayol Ghul. There is also Min's viewing: "three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it." And Egwene's dream: "Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast." All accounts point to the inevitability of Rand's death during Tarmon Gai'dan. 3. Nynaeve insists that everything can be healed despite what everyone knows to be sure fact....and she has twice proven everyone wrong. Because this is a story, we all want it to have a "happy ending," and suppose that can only happen if the main protagonist is alive and relatively well at the end. So it's natural for us to assume as we read that the prophecies are misunderstood or translated wrong or are incorrect for some other reason. However, in the WoT books that has never really proven to be the case (misunderstandings yes, but never a prophecy being blatantly wrong.) There are numerous theories around of how Rand can die and there still be the happy ending we're looking for; everything from some sort of transmigration to something happening with his link to Moridin. I say just look at the Pattern (yes, pun intended.) Nynaeve insists that everything can be healed, and there's one "impossible" left that she hasn't cracked. Rand is surely going to die in the last battle. And new and amazing things are happening left and right. I submit that somehow, three days after he is killed during Tarmon Gai'dan, Nynaeve is going to figure out how to heal death, and resurrect Rand. I'd sure love to hear some debate on this! I don't know if this is a new idea or not (I'm fairly new to these forums) and I'm positive someone had to have brought this up before. So if there is anything about this I've missed, please fill me in!
  11. It also mentions that Ingtar has just returned from somewhere....gone at the same time that Moiraine was. That's the piece of this that caught my attention. This brings to mind a quotation that I read sometime last week or so (not sure where exactly, but most likely somewhere in TGH.) Someone said something like "you blues, willing to lose yourself entirely for your causes." For Moiraine and Suian the end completely justifies the means. If she joined the Black simply to be able to get to the Dragon Reborn first, she wouldn't kill him in The Two Rivers. That would destroy the end she's working for, and then there wouldn't be any rationale for this idea at all. So the fact that she didn't kill them holds up this possibility.
  12. I could perhaps point to Verin to argue that point.... :) That's exactly how I felt, until this read through and this particular question popped out. The great thing is, this type of thing is exactly why I wanted to read again...to try and get something of a fresh perspective on something/someone otherwise familiar.
  13. I'm glad I'm not the first to think of this...but I have to admit I'm not satisfied yet. Brandon's response doesn't actually say she's not a DF. And I firmly believe that Brandon is just as sneaky as RJ. ;) The term "wild-goose-chasing" does seem to imply that it was a red herring, but I think we've all been surprised at supposed implications before.
  14. Hello, So this question has plagued me enough now that I finally had to join so I could ask for some thoughts. I am doing an umpteenth read-through in anticipation of AMoL...and something just stood out to me that I never caught before. At the beginning of THG when Rand and Lan are working out, Rand is complaining that Moiraine is ignoring him now. He then mentions that she even left Fal Dara, and Lan tells him that she got back the previous night. We know that Ingtar is a dark friend and left the keep at the same time to go to the meeting that was told through the perspective of "Bors." I'm still near the beginning of this book, but I simply don't recall any explanation for her disappearance in any of my previous reads (and the last was only about a year ago.) So, did Moiraine go to that meeting? Is Moiraine a dark friend? Of course all of her actions and apparent loyalty to Rand say otherwise, but do they really? The Dark Lord prizes ambition and cunning in his followers, so wouldn't it make sense that someone of his would want to get close to the DR and stay as close as possible, even to the extent of destroying other Chosen? Perhaps she thought that she would be killed by the 'Finns and transmigrated as Lanfear was, and her plan didn't work out...who knows, I'm just throwing out ideas here. I have never before considered the possibility. But her unexplained absence is really bugging me. After A New Spring we of course don't want to think that she could have been converted and corrupted, but there's still 20 years that are left untold. And if she did convert, that would explain how the dark learned the precise age of the DR, which they obviously didn't know at the end of ANS. Can someone please put this uneasiness to rest for me so I can sleep well again? Only an explanation of that absence will do the trick I fear. Thanks! --Fligg
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