Cadsuane

[TristanWebb]

The more I think about Cadsuane, the more I am convinced that her plan was doomed to fail from the start. It wasn't her fault, it was Min's. Cadsuane thought that by treating Rand differently from everyone else, by treating him like a little boy and keeping her knowlege to herself she would make him want her to be around to guide him, not realising that the only reason she was allowed to stay near him at all was Min forcing him to keep her.

 

Now I'm not saying that she wouldn't of come up with a different plan that would of worked if she knew, I am saying that she thought her plan was working when it wasn't because she thought that Rand wanted her advice on it's own merits rather than because Min told him it was important that she stay close. It wasn't until she was exiled that she came up with something that even close to worked and that backfired on her as well.

[pilgram]

We haven’t seen her admitting that she outright ordered him to attack Andoran territory, and I don’t think that she necessarily did, or indeed had to – it would be enough to assure him in Tower support and encourage him to take actions that would increase his standing amongst Murandian nobility. What we do know for sure is that she chose to press Morgase not to defend her country instead to press Dulain to stop attacks, which she certainly could – its’ easier to press relatively unknown noble than reigning queen. Besides, I doubt that WT would give its support in such matter to person not willing to give way to their demands. It was certainly AS plot and power grab – to put their favorite on throne and control Murandy through him.

 

AS support many thrones. They supported Morgase for instance, it certainly doesn't mean Siuan was trying to annex the land for the WT as Nial attempted to do in the WC war and on the plain. Support and Nial's actions are two very different things.

 

 

 

Yes, AS only wanted to support throne of Murandy, just as Catherine the Great only wanted to support crown and independence of Poland … by installing Stanislav Poniatovsky (spelling) for king. Again, we don’t actually know more than bare minimum about WC War, we don’t even know what was WC publicly stated purpose. Was it to annex territories of Altara to Amadicia? To unite Altara under pro-children ruler (and eventually reduce it to position of Amadica’s)? To take control outright, as was Niall planed for Almoth Plain? (IMO least likely, G. Bornhald was at lost of what LCC was trying to achieve and it seems likely that if CotL same thing in Altara he would be able to connect dots)

And yes, Siuan as well as Tamra Ospenya for that matter didn’t want to annex Andor, they wanted it to have a queen that would do as WT says. Main difference, I think, between ways WT and CotL operate is that WT concentrates on upper-most tier of society: rulers, nobles and high dignitaries, and maintains its control through Daes Daemar, vast financial resources, its reputation, but most of all knowledge that they are wielders of One Power. Compared to them CotL are underdogs, they lag behind WT in most mentioned areas except OP which they don’t have at all and have to substitute it with military power, which all nations and nobles have on their disposal (including WT but although Tower Guard is fairly decent army and can take on CotL in need is still of tertiary importance to them and not worthy of being mentioned amongst their top resources). Only area where CotL have something of advantage over WT is membership but if we look at what 1000+ well educated channelers who can live for over 200 years can do and what several thousands regular human soldiers can do we see that it is not really much of the advantage. So in order to be of significance they had to adapt different tactics. In other words, when Amyrlin wants to change a rulers politics she sends one (or more) sister to deliver promises of support or treats, veiled or unveiled, to cause a strife amongst nobility and perhaps bankers and merchants, and all that is underlined with knowledge that woman before them is practically untouchable because she channels One Power and there are thousand like her behind her whereas he has none. When LCC wants to change a rulers politics he has to send hundreds if not thousands soldiers so that his emissaries could deliver similar speeches to rulers and nobles and bankers and merchants, and to try and engineer public opinion of common folk as additional mean of pressure but everything he can throw at them they already have. It’s not like he can send captains to beat the crap from uncooperative rulers while their guard stands around unable to act.

To sum up: WT has huge advantage that allows it to acts smoother but not innately different from CotL.

[Vardar]

We haven’t seen her admitting that she outright ordered him to attack Andoran territory, and I don’t think that she necessarily did, or indeed had to – it would be enough to assure him in Tower support and encourage him to take actions that would increase his standing amongst Murandian nobility. What we do know for sure is that she chose to press Morgase not to defend her country instead to press Dulain to stop attacks, which she certainly could – its’ easier to press relatively unknown noble than reigning queen. Besides, I doubt that WT would give its support in such matter to person not willing to give way to their demands. It was certainly AS plot and power grab – to put their favorite on throne and control Murandy through him.

 

AS support many thrones. They supported Morgase for instance, it certainly doesn't mean Siuan was trying to annex the land for the WT as Nial attempted to do in the WC war and on the plain. Support and Nial's actions are two very different things.

 

 

 

Yes, AS only wanted to support throne of Murandy, just as Catherine the Great only wanted to support crown and independence of Poland … by installing Stanislav Poniatovsky (spelling) for king. Again, we don’t actually know more than bare minimum about WC War, we don’t even know what was WC publicly stated purpose. Was it to annex territories of Altara to Amadicia? To unite Altara under pro-children ruler (and eventually reduce it to position of Amadica’s)? To take control outright, as was Niall planed for Almoth Plain? (IMO least likely, G. Bornhald was at lost of what LCC was trying to achieve and it seems likely that if CotL same thing in Altara he would be able to connect dots)

And yes, Siuan as well as Tamra Ospenya for that matter didn’t want to annex Andor, they wanted it to have a queen that would do as WT says. Main difference, I think, between ways WT and CotL operate is that WT concentrates on upper-most tier of society: rulers, nobles and high dignitaries, and maintains its control through Daes Daemar, vast financial resources, its reputation, but most of all knowledge that they are wielders of One Power. Compared to them CotL are underdogs, they lag behind WT in most mentioned areas except OP which they don’t have at all and have to substitute it with military power, which all nations and nobles have on their disposal (including WT but although Tower Guard is fairly decent army and can take on CotL in need is still of tertiary importance to them and not worthy of being mentioned amongst their top resources). Only area where CotL have something of advantage over WT is membership but if we look at what 1000+ well educated channelers who can live for over 200 years can do and what several thousands regular human soldiers can do we see that it is not really much of the advantage. So in order to be of significance they had to adapt different tactics. In other words, when Amyrlin wants to change a rulers politics she sends one (or more) sister to deliver promises of support or treats, veiled or unveiled, to cause a strife amongst nobility and perhaps bankers and merchants, and all that is underlined with knowledge that woman before them is practically untouchable because she channels One Power and there are thousand like her behind her whereas he has none. When LCC wants to change a rulers politics he has to send hundreds if not thousands soldiers so that his emissaries could deliver similar speeches to rulers and nobles and bankers and merchants, and to try and engineer public opinion of common folk as additional mean of pressure but everything he can throw at them they already have. It’s not like he can send captains to beat the crap from uncooperative rulers while their guard stands around unable to act.

To sum up: WT has huge advantage that allows it to acts smoother but not innately different from CotL.

 

EXACTLY!

 

@ Cow: Good point!!!

[BFG]

The more I think about Cadsuane, the more I am convinced that her plan was doomed to fail from the start. It wasn't her fault, it was Min's. Cadsuane thought that by treating Rand differently from everyone else, by treating him like a little boy and keeping her knowlege to herself she would make him want her to be around to guide him, not realising that the only reason she was allowed to stay near him at all was Min forcing him to keep her.

 

Now I'm not saying that she wouldn't of come up with a different plan that would of worked if she knew, I am saying that she thought her plan was working when it wasn't because she thought that Rand wanted her advice on it's own merits rather than because Min told him it was important that she stay close. It wasn't until she was exiled that she came up with something that even close to worked and that backfired on her as well.

 

Interesting idea, I've never quite taken the thought that Cads only lasted as long as she did because of Min as far as thinking that it meant Cads had no reason to adapt... Hmmm may need to rethink some stuff

[thisguy]

The more I think about Cadsuane, the more I am convinced that her plan was doomed to fail from the start. It wasn't her fault, it was Min's. Cadsuane thought that by treating Rand differently from everyone else, by treating him like a little boy and keeping her knowlege to herself she would make him want her to be around to guide him, not realising that the only reason she was allowed to stay near him at all was Min forcing him to keep her.

 

Now I'm not saying that she wouldn't of come up with a different plan that would of worked if she knew, I am saying that she thought her plan was working when it wasn't because she thought that Rand wanted her advice on it's own merits rather than because Min told him it was important that she stay close. It wasn't until she was exiled that she came up with something that even close to worked and that backfired on her as well.

I guess. She's around him for at least a couple of books before Far Madding. I think her ego is too big for her to have switched plans.

[Suttree]

Yes, AS only wanted to support throne of Murandy, just as Catherine the Great only wanted to support crown and independence of Poland … by installing Stanislav Poniatovsky (spelling) for king. Again, we don’t actually know more than bare minimum about WC War, we don’t even know what was WC publicly stated purpose.

 

It's purpose was to invade Altara and put it under Whietcloak control and they had sights beyond that as well.

 

BWB

Over the years, the Children of the Light gained control of Amadicia, ruling in all but name; kings and queens still sat on the throne of Amadicia, but they did nothing without the approval of the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light. In 957, the Children set their eyes on Altara, and whether or not they looked beyond, to Murandy and even Illian, Murandy and Illian believed that they did.

 

Not true at all and Morgase is proof of that. They wanted good relations as they have with the Borderlands and many oher countries as well.

To sum up: WT has huge advantage that allows it to acts smoother but not innately different from CotL.

 

There is a huge difference. The WT is working for the greater good while whitecloaks...

 

Interview: Sep 4th, 2005

DragonCon Report - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

Question

 

As a feminist, one part, the Children of the Light get my goat, make me angry. What are the Children of the Light in the story for? (paraphrased)

Robert Jordan

 

The Children of the Light are all of those people who say I know the truth, my truth is the only truth, you must believe my truth. You must believe my truth, if you refuse to believe my truth I will kill you. I wanted them in there because there are always people like that in any world, and they have a tendency to organize and start killing people that don't believe what they believe, so it is really their similitude. I don't think there can be a world without the haters. Haters exist.

 

On top of that with Nial you have the personnel ambition and thoughts of glory which lead to the land grabs when given the chance. The WT works for the greater good, they avert wars, forge treaties and srengthen thrones. Yes there are bad members but to compare the two isn't reality.

 

I guess. She's around him for at least a couple of books before Far Madding. I think her ego is too big for her to have switched plans.

 

But we know that line of thinking is mistaken...

 

RJ

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

[Knivy]

ut to compare the two isn't reality.

 

I guess. She's around him for at least a couple of books before Far Madding. I think her ego is too big for her to have switched plans.

 

But we know that line of thinking is mistaken...

 

RJ

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

 

Im sorry, but there is little evidence of her being adaptable in the books. I know RJ said she is, but it really doesnt show. She has always been right, and correct me if Im wrong, but I dont recall her ever changing tactics after an initial meeting. She is good at assessing a situation and deciding where to go from there, but she hasnt shown herself to be able to correct herself if her judgement happens to be wrong. If her action in book is an example of "remarkably adaptable," then it isnt an uncommon trait in Randland.

 

She may have been extremely adaptable earlier in her career, but constant success does have a negative effect on a persons way of thinking. Look what it did to Rand in such a short time. Cads has had that for probably close to 200 years, and while she wouldn't be as vulnerable as Rand was, she has been under this influence much longer than Rand was.

[thisguy]

Well, considering she doesn't adapt until late into TGS with how she deals with Rand, I don't find her that adaptable in the story. Maybe, she's gotten old.

[thisguy]

ut to compare the two isn't reality.

 

I guess. She's around him for at least a couple of books before Far Madding. I think her ego is too big for her to have switched plans.

 

But we know that line of thinking is mistaken...

 

RJ

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

 

Im sorry, but there is little evidence of her being adaptable in the books. I know RJ said she is, but it really doesnt show. She has always been right, and correct me if Im wrong, but I dont recall her ever changing tactics after an initial meeting. She is good at assessing a situation and deciding where to go from there, but she hasnt shown herself to be able to correct herself if her judgement happens to be wrong. If her action in book is an example of "remarkably adaptable," then it isnt an uncommon trait in Randland.

 

She may have been extremely adaptable earlier in her career, but constant success does have a negative effect on a persons way of thinking. Look what it did to Rand in such a short time. Cads has had that for probably close to 200 years, and while she wouldn't be as vulnerable as Rand was, she has been under this influence much longer than Rand was.

You took the words out of my mouth. In this regard, RJ's writing was tell, don't show.

[Suttree]

ut to compare the two isn't reality.

 

I guess. She's around him for at least a couple of books before Far Madding. I think her ego is too big for her to have switched plans.

 

But we know that line of thinking is mistaken...

 

RJ

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

 

Im sorry, but there is little evidence of her being adaptable in the books. I know RJ said she is, but it really doesnt show. She has always been right, and correct me if Im wrong, but I dont recall her ever changing tactics after an initial meeting. She is good at assessing a situation and deciding where to go from there, but she hasnt shown herself to be able to correct herself if her judgement happens to be wrong. If her action in book is an example of "remarkably adaptable," then it isnt an uncommon trait in Randland.

 

She may have been extremely adaptable earlier in her career, but constant success does have a negative effect on a persons way of thinking. Look what it did to Rand in such a short time. Cads has had that for probably close to 200 years, and while she wouldn't be as vulnerable as Rand was, she has been under this influence much longer than Rand was.

You took the words out of my mouth. In this regard, RJ's writing was tell, don't show.

 

There is a fair amount of evidence in her dealings with Rand and others(Sorilea, Verin, etc). See Luckers "Subtleties of Cadsuane" thread for a breakdown.

[Knivy]

ut to compare the two isn't reality.

 

I guess. She's around him for at least a couple of books before Far Madding. I think her ego is too big for her to have switched plans.

 

But we know that line of thinking is mistaken...

 

RJ

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

 

Im sorry, but there is little evidence of her being adaptable in the books. I know RJ said she is, but it really doesnt show. She has always been right, and correct me if Im wrong, but I dont recall her ever changing tactics after an initial meeting. She is good at assessing a situation and deciding where to go from there, but she hasnt shown herself to be able to correct herself if her judgement happens to be wrong. If her action in book is an example of "remarkably adaptable," then it isnt an uncommon trait in Randland.

 

She may have been extremely adaptable earlier in her career, but constant success does have a negative effect on a persons way of thinking. Look what it did to Rand in such a short time. Cads has had that for probably close to 200 years, and while she wouldn't be as vulnerable as Rand was, she has been under this influence much longer than Rand was.

You took the words out of my mouth. In this regard, RJ's writing was tell, don't show.

 

There is a fair amount of evidence in her dealings with Rand and others(Sorilea, Verin, etc). See Luckers "Subtleties of Cadsuane" thread for a breakdown.

 

Ill admit there is a little evidence for adaptation in her dealings with rand, her making him ask for help when shoving it in his face didnt work out, for adaptation. Sorilea and Verin arent evidence of her changing her plans, they are evidence of her skill at assessing initially.

 

EDIT: She changed because it didn't work, though. It would take a glaringly more effective alternative to make her change before her plan was unsuccessful.

[thisguy]

ut to compare the two isn't reality.

 

I guess. She's around him for at least a couple of books before Far Madding. I think her ego is too big for her to have switched plans.

 

But we know that line of thinking is mistaken...

 

RJ

For many sisters, the fact that she had was just one more indication of how set in her ways she was; they thought Cadsuane would never change, could never change. Of course, that was far from true; Cadsuane was remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who survived as long as she.

 

Im sorry, but there is little evidence of her being adaptable in the books. I know RJ said she is, but it really doesnt show. She has always been right, and correct me if Im wrong, but I dont recall her ever changing tactics after an initial meeting. She is good at assessing a situation and deciding where to go from there, but she hasnt shown herself to be able to correct herself if her judgement happens to be wrong. If her action in book is an example of "remarkably adaptable," then it isnt an uncommon trait in Randland.

 

She may have been extremely adaptable earlier in her career, but constant success does have a negative effect on a persons way of thinking. Look what it did to Rand in such a short time. Cads has had that for probably close to 200 years, and while she wouldn't be as vulnerable as Rand was, she has been under this influence much longer than Rand was.

You took the words out of my mouth. In this regard, RJ's writing was tell, don't show.

 

There is a fair amount of evidence in her dealings with Rand and others(Sorilea, Verin, etc). See Luckers "Subtleties of Cadsuane" thread for a breakdown.

 

Ill admit there is a little evidence for adaptation in her dealings with rand, her making him ask for help when shoving it in his face didnt work out, for adaptation. Sorilea and Verin arent evidence of her changing her plans, they are evidence of her skill at assessing initially.

 

EDIT: She changed because it didn't work, though. It would take a glaringly more effective alternative to make her change before her plan was unsuccessful.

She doesn't adapt. She uses those who follow her sycophantically (whether for good reason or not) and they adapt to her. Others she bends to her will to use or not at all. Sorilea and her see eye to eye (Cads not even sure sometimes) on one issue and make a pact.

[Luckers]

She doesn't adapt. She uses those who follow her sycophantically (whether for good reason or not) and they adapt to her. Others she bends to her will to use or not at all. Sorilea and her see eye to eye (Cads not even sure sometimes) on one issue and make a pact.

 

She does actually. She adapts fluidly and constantly. Compare her actions with Amys to Kiruna, with Verin to Harine, with Aleis to Rand, with Samitsu to Dobraine. She guages those she deals with and modulates her own behaviour accordinly--up to and including allowing events to not go the way she wished them to, as with her confrontation with Dobraine.

 

I think the main reason people rail against this concept despite the overwhelming evidence is that within the idea that she is a highly adaptable woman who modulates her behaviour to match what the other person's actions deserve there is the inference that she was right to treat Rand as she did--which, of course, by his behaviour and based on his actual needs, she was. But it's hard to see it in just that light--too much of the sense of Rand as the champion of the light and the victim of fate lay upon people's judgement of his character and role, and thus any further impingement is seen as monstrous and unfair, even when they are for his own good.

[thisguy]

She doesn't adapt. She uses those who follow her sycophantically (whether for good reason or not) and they adapt to her. Others she bends to her will to use or not at all. Sorilea and her see eye to eye (Cads not even sure sometimes) on one issue and make a pact.

 

She does actually. She adapts fluidly and constantly. Compare her actions with Amys to Kiruna, with Verin to Harine, with Aleis to Rand, with Samitsu to Dobraine. She guages those she deals with and modulates her own behaviour accordinly--up to and including allowing events to not go the way she wished them to, as with her confrontation with Dobraine.

 

I think the main reason people rail against this concept despite the overwhelming evidence is that within the idea that she is a highly adaptable woman who modulates her behaviour to match what the other person's actions deserve there is the inference that she was right to treat Rand as she did--which, of course, by his behaviour and based on his actual needs, she was. But it's hard to see it in just that light--too much of the sense of Rand as the champion of the light and the victim of fate lay upon people's judgement of his character and role, and thus any further impingement is seen as monstrous and unfair, even when they are for his own good.

I actually find Verin more adaptable, which is shown by her secret years as a DF and still fighting for the light. Shoot! She even thought about killing Cadsuane for Rand and decided against it at the last second. The difference between the two of them is that RJ never tells the reader how incredibly adaptable she is. For that matter, Egwene is extremely adaptable in many ways, to give the little pain in the butt some credit. ;)

[Luckers]

RJ never told the reader how incredibly adaptable Cadsuane was. He made a note of it in his notes about her, but it was Brandon who chose to publish it.

 

That being said, the books sustain this completely, at least prior to tGS.

[thisguy]

RJ never told the reader how incredibly adaptable Cadsuane was. He made a note of it in his notes about her, but it was Brandon who chose to publish it.

 

That being said, the books sustain this completely, at least prior to tGS.

I gotta be honest, I'm on book 10 in my reread and see nothing to make her look any more adaptable than many of the characters.

[Suttree]

RJ never told the reader how incredibly adaptable Cadsuane was. He made a note of it in his notes about her, but it was Brandon who chose to publish it.

 

That being said, the books sustain this completely, at least prior to tGS.

 

Think thisguy means RJ doesn't "tell us" as in his writing in text. This is of course not the case. There is a large amount of evidence showing just how adaptable she is as you noted.

[thisguy]

And, Rand, Mat, Perrin, Verin, Moiraine, Egwene, Siuan, Gareth Bryne, etc. Some very adaptable characters in the books.

[Luckers]

RJ never told the reader how incredibly adaptable Cadsuane was. He made a note of it in his notes about her, but it was Brandon who chose to publish it.

 

That being said, the books sustain this completely, at least prior to tGS.

I gotta be honest, I'm on book 10 in my reread and see nothing to make her look any more adaptable than many of the characters.

 

That's fine. RJ had no problem with people missing things.

[TootThatHorn]

The more I think about Cadsuane, the more I am convinced that her plan was doomed to fail from the start. It wasn't her fault, it was Min's. Cadsuane thought that by treating Rand differently from everyone else, by treating him like a little boy and keeping her knowlege to herself she would make him want her to be around to guide him, not realising that the only reason she was allowed to stay near him at all was Min forcing him to keep her.

 

Now I'm not saying that she wouldn't of come up with a different plan that would of worked if she knew, I am saying that she thought her plan was working when it wasn't because she thought that Rand wanted her advice on it's own merits rather than because Min told him it was important that she stay close. It wasn't until she was exiled that she came up with something that even close to worked and that backfired on her as well.

 

Sounds like Cads should have done a tad more research on the Two Rivers and their mentality.

[SuperFade]

RJ never told the reader how incredibly adaptable Cadsuane was. He made a note of it in his notes about her, but it was Brandon who chose to publish it.

 

That being said, the books sustain this completely, at least prior to tGS.

I gotta be honest, I'm on book 10 in my reread and see nothing to make her look any more adaptable than many of the characters.

 

That's fine. RJ had no problem with people missing things.

 

That's a pretty arrogant thing to say. Maybe you could give some examples of her adaptability, backed up by evidence that is clearly shown in the books rather than told to us in RJ's notes?

[Luckers]

I already did.

[thisguy]

"Vandene did not think much of the woman, calling her opinionated and muleheaded, but Careane had almost fainted in awe at hearing her name." Crossroads of Twilight, Og 309

 

I really like Vandene.

[Mr Ares]

What right does anyone have to try to make the world a better place? And there is a big difference between gentling and murder. Gentling is not an inherently fatal process. As we've seen in Setalle Anan, it is possible for someone who has been severed to go on to live a long, fulfilled life. We don't have statistics on the survival rates of gentled men, beyond that those brought in by Cadsuane tended to live longer. Emarin lived ten years. Ten years without the madness, without the rotting. Granted, gentling is an imperfect solution, but to compare it to murder is absurd. If a doctor carried out a risky medical procedure as it was the only possible way to save the patients life, yet the patient didn't survive the procedure, would you consider the doctor a murderer? For doing the only thing he could to preserve the life of his patient?

 

Settele was not gentled, she burned herself out. There's a difference.

The differences are minor, and hardly relevant.

 

1) You cannot provide numbers proving someone will always live longer if gentled

2) There is proof that someone who is gentled will die before their time. It's been said multiple times.

3) So since there is no evidence that they would have died in a shorter period if you gentle, then it's murder. Now as I stated, it's justified murder. Hell, I'll even call it unwanted assisted suicide if you'd like. But it's still a direct action on an AS's part that will lead to a death.

1)Why would I need to? 2)It's also made clear that it is not a subject that AS devote a lot of time or effort to studying. You need to find something to live for, something to fill the void. AS don't spend a lot of time trying to find that something for people. 3)That's a very skewed definition of murder. Completely wrong, of course. It is a wholly survivable procedure, but one that is risky.

 

It is important to note that the justifications of Cadsuane's character put forward by fans are not rooted solely in her viewpoint. We see her actions, and decide for ourselves if we think she is justified in doing what she does. We see a woman who adapts her tactics depending on who she is dealing with. A woman whose belief in her own abilities is backed up by centuries of experience. We see her actions doing more good than harm. She spanks a ruler, said ruler ends up more secure in his rule than he was before. Now, that might not be the only possible solution, it might not be the "best" solution, but it was an effective solution. So she has a track record of coming up with solutions to problems. She provokes Rand to learn of his character. You might question her methods, although you have yet to put forward a better way of learning what sort of thing this man is made of, especially one that is so quick and efficient. And she does learn of his character. What she does works, and you haven't offered a better solution. What does that tell us? That Cadsuane's actions can be justified, not just in her own mind, but in the minds of the readers.

 

Here we go. We see her actions do more good than harm, however we don't see her try something else (Except when she has no choice and she's smart enough to understand rudeness won't work). That's not a great track record to compare. As far as we know, being polite would have worked just as well. We'll never know because she didn't do it (Barring those rare exceptions).

Well, that's rather the nature of things. We see one approach, and its successes and failures. We don't see any others so we don't know if they would be better or worse. We see Cadsuane is adaptable, we see her approach works, and that it is not just a default that she mindlessly applies to everyone.

 

 

How so, when it results in said rulers doing a better job?

Not her country, not her king/queen, not her business. Also, who measures "a better job"? Her? Don't make me laugh. She has the audicity to presume she knows what's best for a country that exisited before she was around why? Oh yea, becaus she has magical powers and who can stop her. Know what that is? The actions of a tyrant. She has no right to do those things, (Aside from genteling) and I see how you keep glossing over that.

I didn't gloss over it, I addressed it. She has as much right as anyone to help someone. You could say not my country, not my problem. I consider that a small minded viewpoint. She travels the world, and she has the opportunity to help. What sort of person would she be if she didn't? As for knowing what's best, that's just a function of experience. Magic has nothing to do with it. As for who measures a better job, anyone can. Show one example of Cadsuane's interference making someone worse at their job.

 

Yes. Precisely. Us. We see Niall's actions, and can say that no matter how justified he felt he was, we disagree with his actions. How did the Light benefit? Further, given our knowledge some of the things he believed to be lies we know to be truths. By the same token, we can see Cadsuane's actions, the effects of those actions, the harm and good that arises, and make a judgement on whether or not she was justified in acting how she did. Did shemake things better or worse? Well, in most respects she made things better. She made a small mistake in TGS, but then realised she had made a mistake and worked to correct it. Ultimately, she did succeed in her goal, although admittedly not in precisely the way she had intended.

 

And you ignored the entire part about how she doesn't have our viewpoint, therefore at the most basic level, they're both doing what they think is right, and if you're going to excuse any atrocity Cads does using that logic you must unbiasedly excuse Nial as well. But then again, I understand you're not unbiased.

There are differences in both action and outcome between Niall and Cadsuane, therefore you persist in drawing a false equivalence. According to you, giving money to a tramp because you think it's right and stabbing him to death because you think it's right are equally justified. Cadsuane has, at worst, inflicted some minor humiliations on people. Niall has killed a lot of people. She has been succesful in making the world a better place, he hasn't. Different actions, different outcomes.

 

We've seen a lot of AS pov, and we tend not to think they are wonderful. A deeply flawed organisation is the most common view. Readers are entirely capable of making up their minds and disagreeing with characters. The AS think Cadsuane is wonderful. We see evidence to back up that she really is that damn good.

Lies. I've never seen Cads referred too by another AS as wonderful.

Thisguy's word, not mine. If anything, AS not thinking she's wonderful merely strengthens my point.

 

No. We can see the benefit of Cadsuane's actions. Can we see that of the Whitecloaks? Both might feel they are justified in their actions because they act for the Light. We can agree with one but not the other. Maybe these rulers would have dealt with their problems by themselves. Maybe not. But to me it seems very strange to try and claim that she lacks a mandate to help people. Surely everyone in the world has that right.

 

This is what I'm talking about.

 

You cannot claim Cads can do whatever she wants because she wants to help people while claiming Nail cannot even though he wants to help people. If Cads has the right to impose her will upon an independent country, because she wants to help, then Nial has that same right. Now I understand you're biased, but I'll be damned if I continue a debate with you refusing to admit you're biased while contridicting yourself in your own statements.

Niall does have a right to help people. That doesn't mean that any and all actions by either party are wholly justified. There is no double standard, simply a misunderstanding on your part. Perhaps I should have been clearer. If Cadsuane had tried annexing countries by force and massacring innocents, I wouldn't be defending her. If Niall had achieved great things by virtue of spanking a neighbouring king to convince him to back down from a potentially very bloody war, I would defend him.

 

 

You're setting a double standard for Cads then refusing to admit there is a double standard.

 

The results DO NOT MATTER. You cannot justify the actions with the results.

Why not?

 

No. But when we can see from evidence outside her viewpoint that she is right, then it does make it so.

 

Her rudeness to Berlain and Rand in her initial meeting did nothing except further her own ego. She wasn't right. You can see the evidence, but that's because you set a double standard for everything Cads does.

As I've told you previously, she wasn't rude to Berelain. And, as I've already told you, her behaviour to Rand was to gauge his character.

 

The Shadowspawn were wiped out by the Armies of the Night, before Luthair came. So it was the AS he saw fit to enslave that killed the Shadowspawn. What have the Seanchan done for the Light, or against the Shadow? As for their enslaving of female channelers, they see them as being too dangerous to be left uncollared. We have seen the results of women who can channel being left to their own devices. Turns out, they're just people. They don't really have a sound foundation for their beliefs with regards to channelers, because the idea they base their beliefs on is demonstrably false. Cadsuane might think that she always knows best, but if the results bear out the conclusion that she does, then it is less a sign of conceit than it is a reasonable assessment

 

Let's see. They united an entire landmass. They came up with a way to have all people treated equally on a basic level (No Cads going around doing whatever the hell they want too just because they have magic and other's don't). They keep all their people fed, clothed, and such. They have a system for promotion where even the meanest peasent could some day become one of the most important people in the kingdom.

 

Now, we know all their ideals don't look too great in action, however on paper it looks damned good. They think they're working towards the light. Your excuses for Cads means if their heart is in the right place, then it's all ok.

The Seanchan have not come up with a way to treat all people equally, not on paper or in reality. Their society is more highly stratified than the Westlands, if anything. Peasants can become nobles in the Westlands, as well. On paper, they don't look that great. And my excuses for Cadsuane bear no resemblance to what you claim they are. And you have the gall to accuse me of lies? Dear me.

 

"Something is up" and "he is a Chosen" are very different conclusions. Given that compulsion is one of the most common wilder tricks, and a man starting to channel is often accompanied by luck or a sudden rise to prominence - actually a result of his channeling - so this could easily just be a male channeler who has set himself up as a king. When does she learn that the Chosen are free? And what, specifically, lets her know that this guy is a Chosen and not just a male channeler? Because, as I've said, the Oaths will hold her unless her life is threatened or unless she knows he is Shadowsworn.

Knowledge that the Forsaken is free is availble to anyone who wishes to believe and wants to know. The AS know, not all believe.

The availability of that knowledge is variable. Different people learn it at different times, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

 

 

Quote

 

No, it is exactly what I said. She deduced that Alivia had a ter'angreal of a type unknown in the AoL after one failed attack. She then reacts accordingly. Now,it might only work on fireballs. Likewise, Rahvin's first move might be the only thing that it stops. But given that it is a battlefield situation, against a stronger opponent, it's not really the ideal time for idle experimentation. If you touch it with the OP and the weave used dissolves, then maybe it's only some weaves that are dissolved, but why not just skip straight to not touching her directly with the OP? Cyndane did, and there's no reason Rahvin shouldn't.

 

Actually you said:

 

 

Quote

 

Also,Cyndane switched to indirect weaves after her one direct attack failed - I see no reason why the others couldn't draw the same conclusions and adapt in the same way

 

In the chapter Lanfear thinks to herself that Alivi not knowing how to reverse weaves might be enough for her to take her, and when the earth moves under both their feet, Alivi was counter attacking. Nothing says Lanfear did the attack. In fact, it says Alivi channeled. That was her attack. Point, moot.

Actually, the earth heaves as Cyndane fights back. She was already cutting Alivia's weaves. And really, you're not actually providing anything to disprove my point.

 

Not really a response to my point. Rahvin's egotistical nature didn't stop him reacting when taken by surprise, and running away. Why would Cadsuane taking him by surprise be different?

Because he was fearful of Rand before even meeting him. he has no reason to be scared of Cads. And it was in response to your point, Cads should be able to attack faster than Rand could at that point.

He would have reason to be scared of Cadsuane if his weaves dissolved on contact. One weave and he knows to be scared, and he knows he has to adapt. Take him by surprise, and survival will trump ego. Ego will reassert itself when he has the upper hand. And yes, Cadsuane should be able to attack faster than Rand. So what? She still has to kill him super quick. We've seen how quickly the Chosen can react to these things. And she's an AS. He'd likely be at least a little on his guard until he'd pacified her.

 

Quote

 

Which Ajah does he belong to? Has he sworn the Three Oaths? Did he take the test for the shawl, or was he raised by the decree of the Amyrlin? He remembers being AS. The man that was an AS died a long, long time ago. Rand was never AS. And, given that the requirements for being AS have changed since LTT's day, Rand is currently incapable of being AS, unless they change the rules. Him calling himself AS is more an example of him being a dick than of him being an AS.

 

So you're suggesting that another group who took the name from the original group now gets precedence over the original? No. LTT is Rand, all memories, thoughts, powers, etc. LTT, unlike the forsaken, never stopped being AS, therefore he is the only true AS left alive. He doesn't have to join the WT, he was around before them.

I'm suggesting that while many groups have claimed the name AS, most of them no longer exist. The group LTT belonged to died out. None of its members survived. And Rand may have LTT's memories, but memory and personhood are not the same thing, unless you want to consider Mat as having the rights to all the titles of the men whose memories he has. LTT stopped being AS when he died. Rand never became an AS, he just claimed the title. He is no true AS, by the standards of AOL or Third Age.

[muddasssir]

come on people stop it. We have been at it for how many years now? At least, I have lost count. Only reason these guys defend cads is that they like that character, but I also like that character. In fact, She is one of my favorite side characters in the series. I like her because she brings so much to the story. She adds a whole new dimension into ho we see Rand. She is a great character nad helps the story in getting along and adds to the narrative, these are all given. Problem is that her methods are sometime not very good, but that is also the part of greater narrative. why is it so hard to admit that she does not know it all and there could have been an alternative approach. If you go right back to tEOtW. Moiraine comes out as enigmatic and know it all. In fact, that is the way RJ portrayed her in first few books. her character evolved with the series. Same thing is happening to Cads and Rand. Why is it so hard to swallow?