Cadsuane

[thisguy]

My main problem with Cadsuane is her pride. Her way is the right way. She pushes, prods, and pokes people into doing things her way. In some ways she is as bad as Rand.

Personally, I think she's worse. Rand is what he is because of what he is (The Dragon setting up for the Final Battle) and what people like her did to him - push, prodded, poked, and worse.

[Maleshub]

My main problem with Cadsuane is her pride. Her way is the right way. She pushes, prods, and pokes people into doing things her way. In some ways she is as bad as Rand.

Personally, I think she's worse. Rand is what he is because of what he is (The Dragon setting up for the Final Battle) and what people like her did to him - push, prodded, poked, and worse.

 

How many times did she save his arse? I can quickly count four: Cairhien rebel camp, Far Madding, Cleansing, 1st Semirhage encounter.

 

And she was the only Aes Sedai working to teach Rand his true purpose. Whereas he thought that victory at all cost was his purpose, she saw that he was to win a victory for the Light. No one else, with the exception of the Aiel Wise Ones, had the courage to try and make sure that the DR would fight the LB sound in mind and spirit.

[thisguy]

My main problem with Cadsuane is her pride. Her way is the right way. She pushes, prods, and pokes people into doing things her way. In some ways she is as bad as Rand.

Personally, I think she's worse. Rand is what he is because of what he is (The Dragon setting up for the Final Battle) and what people like her did to him - push, prodded, poked, and worse.

 

How many times did she save his arse? I can quickly count four: Cairhien rebel camp, Far Madding, Cleansing, 1st Semirhage encounter.

 

And she was the only Aes Sedai working to teach Rand his true purpose. Whereas he thought that victory at all cost was his purpose, she saw that he was to win a victory for the Light. No one else, with the exception of the Aiel Wise Ones, had the courage to try and make sure that the DR would fight the LB sound in mind and spirit.

I get you. The person I responded to said she was almost as bad as Rand. Rand's saving the world for everyone and thinks he's going to die and literally the most powerful people on the planet want to kill him and everyone bitches and complains to the guy. I think she's worse than him. What is he, like 22-23 at this point? She's like 200 years old or something. The dude's a good dude. I'd deal with his temper, I see decent guys get upset over much less. If she wanted to help him, maybe she could have gotten him a personal masseuse and a daily foot rub.

[thisguy]

All the female Aiel do. The maidens constantly tell him to get sleep, they feed him, etc. She's the only Aes Sedai around him at that time (aside from Nynaeve) who seems to give a crap, I'll grant you that.

[Maleshub]

All the female Aiel do. The maidens constantly tell him to get sleep, they feed him, etc. She's the only Aes Sedai around him at that time (aside from Nynaeve) who seems to give a crap, I'll grant you that.

 

I wasn't talking about food and sleep. I was talking about a clear purpose, a sound strategy, and a good understanding of how he needs to do things. His progression of hardness from iron to steel to cuendillar went horribly wrong. And only Cadsuane and the Aiel Wise Ones were taking a proactive role in trying to help him.

 

And Cadsuane wasn't the only Aes Sedai around him. There were enough of them, sworn and not sworn. But none had a clue as to how to help him. Even Min was helpless in that regard.

[Sasha Grayes]

I don't like Cads. Hope she bites it.

[thisguy]

All the female Aiel do. The maidens constantly tell him to get sleep, they feed him, etc. She's the only Aes Sedai around him at that time (aside from Nynaeve) who seems to give a crap, I'll grant you that.

 

I wasn't talking about food and sleep. I was talking about a clear purpose, a sound strategy, and a good understanding of how he needs to do things. His progression of hardness from iron to steel to cuendillar went horribly wrong. And only Cadsuane and the Aiel Wise Ones were taking a proactive role in trying to help him.

 

And Cadsuane wasn't the only Aes Sedai around him. There were enough of them, sworn and not sworn. But none had a clue as to how to help him. Even Min was helpless in that regard.

I didn't mean she was the only AS around him, just that she was the only one who seemed to be really on his side - aside from Nynaeve. I'm not a big fan, though.

[Morden]

The thing is, Cadsuane's loyalty is to the future. she places that above all else, above Rand, above the White Tower above everything. Her methods are prickly at best and she is far too proud and far too secretive. That is the biggest problem all Aes Sedai have had with Rand. They expect him to do as they say, but they never explain why. Had she sat down with him and told him everything she knew, He would have thought about it and most likely come to the conclusion that they were right.

 

But what we see throughout the whole series, is Aes Sedai saying do this, people asking why, they refuse to answer just saying essentially im smarter and wiser do not ask questions merely follow my orders. Then they are ignored until it is almost too late and the people realise they were right, but being right is not enough.

 

Rand had shown so many times that he will take advise, he just wont take orders. and for him to see the advise as sound it has to be explained and reasoned out, not merely a command.

 

This is the main flaw in Cadsuane, but it one that is ingrained in all Aes Sedai except Nynaeve she just browbeats people, but she shows shes doing it because she cares, but she is probably the most honest Aes Sedai alive. Most Aes Sedai care more for the WT and being Aes Sedai than anything else. She doesnt, nor does Cadsuane or Moiraine...

[thisguy]

The thing is, Cadsuane's loyalty is to the future. she places that above all else, above Rand, above the White Tower above everything. Her methods are prickly at best and she is far too proud and far too secretive. That is the biggest problem all Aes Sedai have had with Rand. They expect him to do as they say, but they never explain why. Had she sat down with him and told him everything she knew, He would have thought about it and most likely come to the conclusion that they were right.

 

But what we see throughout the whole series, is Aes Sedai saying do this, people asking why, they refuse to answer just saying essentially im smarter and wiser do not ask questions merely follow my orders. Then they are ignored until it is almost too late and the people realise they were right, but being right is not enough.

 

Rand had shown so many times that he will take advise, he just wont take orders. and for him to see the advise as sound it has to be explained and reasoned out, not merely a command.

 

This is the main flaw in Cadsuane, but it one that is ingrained in all Aes Sedai except Nynaeve she just browbeats people, but she shows shes doing it because she cares, but she is probably the most honest Aes Sedai alive. Most Aes Sedai care more for the WT and being Aes Sedai than anything else. She doesnt, nor does Cadsuane or Moiraine...

 

I completely agree.

[Suttree]

The thing is, Cadsuane's loyalty is to the future. she places that above all else, above Rand, above the White Tower above everything. Her methods are prickly at best and she is far too proud and far too secretive.

 

How dare she care more for the future of the world than Rand ! No but seriously in this case what was good for the world was also what was best for Rand. We know how terrible "Dark Rand" was and that him winning would have been almost as bad as the DO. Cads has had Rand's back harder than just about anyone.

 

WH

Cadsuane drew a deep breath. She had promised the boy that whatever she did would be for his good, not the good of the Tower or anyone else's, and now she had broken a good woman for his good.

 

That is the biggest problem all Aes Sedai have had with Rand. They expect him to do as they say, but they never explain why. Had she sat down with him and told him everything she knew, He would have thought about it and most likely come to the conclusion that they were right.

 

Somewhat ironic isn't it that the second Rand adds "Sedai" to his name he does exactly what you say above to Egwene concerning the seals when he goes to the WT.

 

Most Aes Sedai care more for the WT and being Aes Sedai than anything else. She doesnt, nor does Cadsuane or Moiraine...

 

But what does the WT stand for? Personnel power or conquering the world? No of course not, it stands for helping the world and facing the shadow. After being the bulwark against it for 3,00 years, the only reason people even remember their is a LB to be fought of course they think they no right. Anything else would be unrealistic. You can question their methods but you can't question their intentions.

[thisguy]

Thing is, Rand is the DR, not them. The only reason she cares if Rand is Dark Rand or not is because of the future, not because of him. If being a bitter brooding man would work better, she'd drive him to it.

[Vardar]

What did "Dark Rand" (I like Rational Rand) do that was so "terrible?"

 

Serious question, what actions were that negative?

[Suttree]

What did "Dark Rand" (I like Rational Rand) do that was so "terrible?"

 

Serious question, what actions were that negative?

 

We have been over this in other threads. It is a MAJOR theme in the books how terrible/insane he was becoming and that for the sake of the himself and the world he needed to change. He slaughtered thousands of his own soldiers in Damona Campaign, left a city to starve because he couldn't use them as "tools", and bale fired innocents just to name a few. Nyn who has played the role of his morale compass at many point was appalled an horrified by his actions. Call him rational(would love to hear him have a conversation in his head with LTT about that) all you want but it holds no basis in reality. He was ready to bale fire his own father for standing up to him.

[Vardar]

What did "Dark Rand" (I like Rational Rand) do that was so "terrible?"

 

Serious question, what actions were that negative?

 

We have been over this in other threads. It is a MAJOR theme in the books how terrible/insane he was becoming and that for the sake of the himself and the world he needed to change. He slaughtered thousands of his own soldiers in Damona Campaign, left a city to starve because he couldn't use them as "tools", and bale fired innocents just to name a few. Nyn who has played the role of his morale compass at many point was appalled an horrified by his actions. Call him rational(would love to hear him have a conversation in his head with LTT about that) all you want but it holds no basis in reality. He was ready to bale fire his own father for standing up to him.

 

But of those things, only 1 is bad, and that was the madness and flaw on Callendor, but anything to do with his perosnality.

 

Nothing he's done as "Dark Rand" was actually evil.

 

Balefiring innocents as you call them, they were already unwitting tools of the dark one and basically dead. No issue there

The city starving, umm can he pull food out of thin air? No? He had places to be and armies to build. It's not like he took food from their mouths. He sent food there!

 

I know it's a major theme, but nothing he does in this dark form is actually bad or evil. (With the exception of spoiling the food which he didn't knowingly do, so how can you count it against him).

 

If they're so bad, offer what "Light Rand" would have done in his stead besides cry about it.

Basically, rational is not evil.

[Suttree]

What did "Dark Rand" (I like Rational Rand) do that was so "terrible?"

 

Serious question, what actions were that negative?

 

We have been over this in other threads. It is a MAJOR theme in the books how terrible/insane he was becoming and that for the sake of the himself and the world he needed to change. He slaughtered thousands of his own soldiers in Damona Campaign, left a city to starve because he couldn't use them as "tools", and bale fired innocents just to name a few. Nyn who has played the role of his morale compass at many point was appalled an horrified by his actions. Call him rational(would love to hear him have a conversation in his head with LTT about that) all you want but it holds no basis in reality. He was ready to bale fire his own father for standing up to him.

 

But of those things, only 1 is bad, and that was the madness and flaw on Callendor, but anything to do with his perosnality.

 

Nothing he's done as "Dark Rand" was actually evil.

 

Balefiring innocents as you call them, they were already unwitting tools of the dark one and basically dead. No issue there

The city starving, umm can he pull food out of thin air? No? He had places to be and armies to build. It's not like he took food from their mouths. He sent food there!

 

I know it's a major theme, but nothing he does in this dark form is actually bad or evil. (With the exception of spoiling the food which he didn't knowingly do, so how can you count it against him).

 

If they're so bad, offer what "Light Rand" would have done in his stead besides cry about it.

Basically, rational is not evil.

 

You asked what he did that was so terrible? Not sure what you are trying to argue here? Are you saying Rand didn't need to have his epiphany? It would have been fine if he continued down that track because he was rational? It is canon that of "Dark Rand" had won the world would have been destroyed. That is why the border landers abandoned their posts to stop him if that was the case.

 

The fact that Dark Rands actions were meant to be terrible as everyone concedes in the text isn't even open for debate. You can spin how you view his actions all you want. There were many other options for the city and Rand himself says he was wrong to do what he did. As for Natrins Barrow there are different levels of compulsion and she was the most skilled person in the world. Graendal dis not always use a bludgeon. Who knows who Nyn could have saved given the chance or who could have gone on to live a normal life. For someone who doesn't believe it's ever ok to be rude or a bully, your tendency to make excuses for Rand because he is the savior is frankly appalling. You can't argue with the way the books are written and to say his actions weren't bad is laughable.

 

Edit: As for the Damona Campaign it was absolutely a personality flaw. The whole section was meant to highlight his hubris and what happens when he doesn't listen to those around him. He refused to to listen to his general and made the conscious decision to use callandor despite knowing Ashaman had been killing their own because the power was wonky. It was 100% rands fault.

[Vardar]

You asked what he did that was so terrible? Not sure what you are trying to argue here? Are you saying Rand didn't need to have his epiphany? It would have been fine if he continued down that track because he was rational? It is canon that of "Dark Rand" had won the world would have been destroyed. That is why the border landers abandoned their posts to stop him if that was the case.

 

The fact that Dark Rands actions were meant to be terrible as everyone concedes in the text isn't even open for debate. You can spin how you view his actions all you want. There were many other options for the city and Rand himself says he was wrong to do what he did. As for Natrins Barrow there are different levels of compulsion and she was the most skilled person in the world. Graendal dis not always use a bludgeon. Who knows who Nyn could have saved given the chance or who could have gone on to live a normal life. For someone who doesn't believe it's ever ok to be rude or a bully, your tendency to make excuses for Rand because he is the savior is frankly appalling. You can't argue with the way the books are written and to say his actions weren't bad is laughable.

 

Edit: As for the Damona Campaign it was absolutely a personality flaw. The whole section was meant to highlight his hubris and what happens when he doesn't listen to those around him. He refused to to listen to his general and made the conscious decision to use callandor despite knowing Ashaman had been killing their own because the power was wonky. It was 100% rands fault.

 

Yes I asked what single act that "Dark Rand" did that was terrible, or evil, or bad. None of them were. Sure, his personality was not the greatest, sure the world may have been destroyed, but his acts, weren't terrible. They weren't something I'd look upon and say MY GOD DESTROY THAT MAN, HE'S HENIOUS! Quite the opposite, if "Zen Rand" (Emo Rand) had to make those decisions, the world quite possibly would have been destroyed because he wouldn't have had the nads to do it, or doing what was right may have torn him apart.

 

I'm not arguing for Rand or making excuses because he's a savior. And what did he do that was rude again?

 

I'm still waiting for the "Many other options" to appear. So you think having the 1 AS who now knows how to test for Compulsion, test each individual person, there were hundreds if not more there. that's after you break into the city (If you manage it) and let the forsaken escape. Train other AS to learn how to detect and remove it? Where is the time coming from? The forsaken are after you, the last battle is coming. How many Weeks or Months would have been spent trying to do that? He did what needed to be done to protect the world. There was nothing terrible about it. I guess balefiring Semi was Terrible too huh?

 

Yes Rand says himself he's wrong, know what? He was wrong thinking that. Zen Rand isn;'t the most rational being when it comes to his actions. "Dark Rand" did what needed to be done, without all the emotional crap. And I'll toss this in, I'm against emotional crap. Know what bullying and rudeness really is? Emotional Crap.

 

Again Damona Campaign, he was still "Non Dark Rand then" He stlll had his resistence to hurt women, still cared too damn much, he was still too damn emotional. That wasn't true "Rational Rand"

[Suttree]

You asked what he did that was so terrible? Not sure what you are trying to argue here? Are you saying Rand didn't need to have his epiphany? It would have been fine if he continued down that track because he was rational? It is canon that of "Dark Rand" had won the world would have been destroyed. That is why the border landers abandoned their posts to stop him if that was the case.

 

The fact that Dark Rands actions were meant to be terrible as everyone concedes in the text isn't even open for debate. You can spin how you view his actions all you want. There were many other options for the city and Rand himself says he was wrong to do what he did. As for Natrins Barrow there are different levels of compulsion and she was the most skilled person in the world. Graendal dis not always use a bludgeon. Who knows who Nyn could have saved given the chance or who could have gone on to live a normal life. For someone who doesn't believe it's ever ok to be rude or a bully, your tendency to make excuses for Rand because he is the savior is frankly appalling. You can't argue with the way the books are written and to say his actions weren't bad is laughable.

 

Edit: As for the Damona Campaign it was absolutely a personality flaw. The whole section was meant to highlight his hubris and what happens when he doesn't listen to those around him. He refused to to listen to his general and made the conscious decision to use callandor despite knowing Ashaman had been killing their own because the power was wonky. It was 100% rands fault.

 

Yes I asked what single act that "Dark Rand" did that was terrible, or evil, or bad. None of them were. Sure, his personality was not the greatest, sure the world may have been destroyed, but his acts, weren't terrible. They weren't something I'd look upon and say MY GOD DESTROY THAT MAN, HE'S HENIOUS! Quite the opposite, if "Zen Rand" (Emo Rand) had to make those decisions, the world quite possibly would have been destroyed because he wouldn't have had the nads to do it, or doing what was right may have torn him apart.

 

I'm not arguing for Rand or making excuses because he's a savior. And what did he do that was rude again?

 

I'm still waiting for the "Many other options" to appear. So you think having the 1 AS who now knows how to test for Compulsion, test each individual person, there were hundreds if not more there. that's after you break into the city (If you manage it) and let the forsaken escape. Train other AS to learn how to detect and remove it? Where is the time coming from? The forsaken are after you, the last battle is coming. How many Weeks or Months would have been spent trying to do that? He did what needed to be done to protect the world. There was nothing terrible about it. I guess balefiring Semi was Terrible too huh?

 

Yes Rand says himself he's wrong, know what? He was wrong thinking that. Zen Rand isn;'t the most rational being when it comes to his actions. "Dark Rand" did what needed to be done, without all the emotional crap. And I'll toss this in, I'm against emotional crap. Know what bullying and rudeness really is? Emotional Crap.

 

Again Damona Campaign, he was still "Non Dark Rand then" He stlll had his resistence to hurt women, still cared too damn much, he was still too damn emotional. That wasn't true "Rational Rand"

 

Bwhaha. So the Damona Campaign doesn't count? Despite the entire scene being designed to show his descent starting and what happens when he doesn't listen to those around him that he needs it doesn't count because he wasn't all the way down his descent yet? The very personality attributes that made this bad only got worse as time went on!

 

Also don't try and turn things around. Why would balefiring a forsaken possibly be wrong? Sure the world would have been destroyed but his actions weren't bad? LOL. He balefired innocents that possiblly could have been saved and didn't even achieve his goal. His target escaped! It was pure luck that he caught anyone. Min and Nyn were horrifed by his actions and rightly so. I suppose they are wrong though as well?

 

You have to realize there is a difference between doing something bad and being pure evil. No one has ever said he was evil. To say his actions were not bad, let alone to say he was never rude to anyone may be the single worst take I have ever seen on any WoT community. No hyperbole I am speaking literally. I am seriously thinking of memoralizing your sentence above in my sig it is so epic. Honestly if I didn't know the usual qality of your posts better I would think you were trolling. By your rational above everyting would have been fine without the epiphany.

[Vardar]

Bwhaha. So the Damona Campaign doesn't count? Despite the entire scene being designed to show his descent starting and what happens when he doesn't listen to those around him that he needs it doesn't count because he wasn't all the way down his descent yet? The very personality attributes that made this bad only got worse as time went on!

 

At that point, he wasn't the "Dark Rand" of which we're speaking of. He wasn't Harder than normal yet. But even if you want ot count it, that's 1.

 

 

Also don't try and turn things around. Why would balefiring a forsaken possibly be wrong? Sure the world would have been destroyed but his actions weren't bad? LOL. He balefired innocents that possiblly could have been saved and didn't even achieve his goal. His target escaped! It was pure luck that he caught anyone. Min and Nyn were horrifed by his actions and rightly so. I suppose they are wrong though as well?

 

Could have been saved. With no guarentee either way, and evidence spoke against it, what choice did he have? Ok, leave the people there (quite possible to come after him at a later date), waste huges amounts of time and effort trying to possibly save them, or destroy them in one blast. Sometimes the few have to die for the many. He didn't even make them suffer. A clean death.

 

You have to realize there is a difference between doing something bad and being pure evil. No one has ever said he was evil. To say his actions were not bad, let alone to say he was never rude to anyone may be the single worst take I have ever seen on any WoT community. No hyperbole I am speaking literally. I am seriously thinking of memoralizing your sentence above in my sig it is so epic. Honestly if I didn't know the usual qality of your posts better I would think you were trolling. By your rational above everyting would have been fine without the epiphany.

 

I can't honestly think of a single time he was rude to anyone. Now, being blunt isn't always rude. Hell, even when he was about to murder Cads with his mind, he politely gave her time to leave. I asked for an example, you can chuckle all you want, and say it's crazy, or give some examples.

 

Quality of my posts? Was that a dig on my posts? Are we really resorting to insults? Is that really necessary?

 

As to the last part, did I ever state that? I did state that without Rational Rand, those incidents would have DESTROYED the world just as surely as you're saying Dark Rand would. Those incidents that you're calling terrible, or bad, would have torn Emotional Rand apart inside.

 

 

I'm merely stating that his actions were not bad or evil or terrible. They were perfectly logical and needed to be done. If you think they weren't offer evidence of what he should have done. History is full of people who claim "Something better could be done, I don't know what, but there has to be a better choice." Sometimes the best choices suck. (Note: I said sometimes, not all the time)

[Suttree]

Quality of my posts? Was that a dig on my posts? Are we really resorting to insults? Is that really necessary?

 

I was saying the quality of your posts are often quite good. That is why claiming Dark Rand actions were not bad would seem like trolling if I didn't know you better.

 

Also not sure what you mean by " I did state that without Rational Rand, those incidents would have DESTROYED the world just as surely as you're saying Dark Rand would."? Are you saying if Rand had never gone down his dark path the world would have already been destroyed?

 

Edit: As for Natrin's Barrow are you claiming that since they got a clean quick death, those innocents with only a light touch of compulsion are acceptable collateral damage(not to mentione the damage done to the pattern, which could very well be what Demandred has been up to) since Rand luckily killed a forsaken even though his true target escaped?

[Vardar]

Quality of my posts? Was that a dig on my posts? Are we really resorting to insults? Is that really necessary?

 

I was saying the quality of your posts are often quite good. That is why claiming Dark Rand actions were not bad would seem like trolling if I didn't know you better.

 

Also not sure what you mean by " I did state that without Rational Rand, those incidents would have DESTROYED the world just as surely as you're saying Dark Rand would."? Are you saying if Rand had never gone down his dark path the world would have already been destroyed?

 

Yes I am. Regular Emotional Rand would have been destroyed by having to make those decisions. Torn the hell apart!

[Clouded]

Bwhaha. So the Damona Campaign doesn't count? Despite the entire scene being designed to show his descent starting and what happens when he doesn't listen to those around him that he needs it doesn't count because he wasn't all the way down his descent yet? The very personality attributes that made this bad only got worse as time went on!

 

At that point, he wasn't the "Dark Rand" of which we're speaking of. He wasn't Harder than normal yet. But even if you want ot count it, that's 1.

 

 

Also don't try and turn things around. Why would balefiring a forsaken possibly be wrong? Sure the world would have been destroyed but his actions weren't bad? LOL. He balefired innocents that possiblly could have been saved and didn't even achieve his goal. His target escaped! It was pure luck that he caught anyone. Min and Nyn were horrifed by his actions and rightly so. I suppose they are wrong though as well?

 

Could have been saved. With no guarentee either way, and evidence spoke against it, what choice did he have? Ok, leave the people there (quite possible to come after him at a later date), waste huges amounts of time and effort trying to possibly save them, or destroy them in one blast. Sometimes the few have to die for the many. He didn't even make them suffer. A clean death.

 

You have to realize there is a difference between doing something bad and being pure evil. No one has ever said he was evil. To say his actions were not bad, let alone to say he was never rude to anyone may be the single worst take I have ever seen on any WoT community. No hyperbole I am speaking literally. I am seriously thinking of memoralizing your sentence above in my sig it is so epic. Honestly if I didn't know the usual qality of your posts better I would think you were trolling. By your rational above everyting would have been fine without the epiphany.

 

I can't honestly think of a single time he was rude to anyone. Now, being blunt isn't always rude. Hell, even when he was about to murder Cads with his mind, he politely gave her time to leave. I asked for an example, you can chuckle all you want, and say it's crazy, or give some examples.

 

Quality of my posts? Was that a dig on my posts? Are we really resorting to insults? Is that really necessary?

 

As to the last part, did I ever state that? I did state that without Rational Rand, those incidents would have DESTROYED the world just as surely as you're saying Dark Rand would. Those incidents that you're calling terrible, or bad, would have torn Emotional Rand apart inside.

 

 

I'm merely stating that his actions were not bad or evil or terrible. They were perfectly logical and needed to be done. If you think they weren't offer evidence of what he should have done. History is full of people who claim "Something better could be done, I don't know what, but there has to be a better choice." Sometimes the best choices suck. (Note: I said sometimes, not all the time)

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

That said, the we've seen plenty of evidence that cold logic can not be the way to go. Logic is valuable, but it must be tempered by emotion, passion, and love. We've seen the results of this a few times. It was Ishamael's cold logic that turned him to choose to follow the dark one. He logically concluded that the cyclical nature of the wheel was pointless, and that everything would be better if the wheel was stopped. Rand almost came to the same conclusion at the end of TGS, but is luckily saved by determining a purpose in living. In contrast, cold reason says he should have abandoned Maradon. He should not have risked drawing the dark ones attention, especially on a battle so far gone, but he chose to fight.

 

This is a world where the end does not justify the means. Aridhol tried to fight the shadow by being as ruthless and merciless as it. One would think killing the shadow means you stand for the light. But it does not. Aridhol became corrupted and evil. Rand realizes this. He cannot just kill the shadow however possible. He must weigh his every decision against his morales and his conscience. Only then can he act. This is why Rand has become Zen Rand.

[thisguy]

Bwhaha. So the Damona Campaign doesn't count? Despite the entire scene being designed to show his descent starting and what happens when he doesn't listen to those around him that he needs it doesn't count because he wasn't all the way down his descent yet? The very personality attributes that made this bad only got worse as time went on!

 

At that point, he wasn't the "Dark Rand" of which we're speaking of. He wasn't Harder than normal yet. But even if you want ot count it, that's 1.

 

 

Also don't try and turn things around. Why would balefiring a forsaken possibly be wrong? Sure the world would have been destroyed but his actions weren't bad? LOL. He balefired innocents that possiblly could have been saved and didn't even achieve his goal. His target escaped! It was pure luck that he caught anyone. Min and Nyn were horrifed by his actions and rightly so. I suppose they are wrong though as well?

 

Could have been saved. With no guarentee either way, and evidence spoke against it, what choice did he have? Ok, leave the people there (quite possible to come after him at a later date), waste huges amounts of time and effort trying to possibly save them, or destroy them in one blast. Sometimes the few have to die for the many. He didn't even make them suffer. A clean death.

 

You have to realize there is a difference between doing something bad and being pure evil. No one has ever said he was evil. To say his actions were not bad, let alone to say he was never rude to anyone may be the single worst take I have ever seen on any WoT community. No hyperbole I am speaking literally. I am seriously thinking of memoralizing your sentence above in my sig it is so epic. Honestly if I didn't know the usual qality of your posts better I would think you were trolling. By your rational above everyting would have been fine without the epiphany.

 

I can't honestly think of a single time he was rude to anyone. Now, being blunt isn't always rude. Hell, even when he was about to murder Cads with his mind, he politely gave her time to leave. I asked for an example, you can chuckle all you want, and say it's crazy, or give some examples.

 

Quality of my posts? Was that a dig on my posts? Are we really resorting to insults? Is that really necessary?

 

As to the last part, did I ever state that? I did state that without Rational Rand, those incidents would have DESTROYED the world just as surely as you're saying Dark Rand would. Those incidents that you're calling terrible, or bad, would have torn Emotional Rand apart inside.

 

 

I'm merely stating that his actions were not bad or evil or terrible. They were perfectly logical and needed to be done. If you think they weren't offer evidence of what he should have done. History is full of people who claim "Something better could be done, I don't know what, but there has to be a better choice." Sometimes the best choices suck. (Note: I said sometimes, not all the time)

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

That said, the we've seen plenty of evidence that cold logic can not be the way to go. Logic is valuable, but it must be tempered by emotion, passion, and love. We've seen the results of this a few times. It was Ishamael's cold logic that turned him to choose to follow the dark one. He logically concluded that the cyclical nature of the wheel was pointless, and that everything would be better if the wheel was stopped. Rand almost came to the same conclusion at the end of TGS, but is luckily saved by determining a purpose in living. In contrast, cold reason says he should have abandoned Maradon. He should not have risked drawing the dark ones attention, especially on a battle so far gone, but he chose to fight.

 

This is a world where the end does not justify the means. Aridhol tried to fight the shadow by being as ruthless and merciless as it. One would think killing the shadow means you stand for the light. But it does not. Aridhol became corrupted and evil. Rand realizes this. He cannot just kill the shadow however possible. He must weigh his every decision against his morales and his conscience. Only then can he act. This is why Rand has become Zen Rand.

Well said.

[Vardar]

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

See I think that decision would be bad, just due to the amount of resources needed to even attempt it. It's letting emotion get in the way of knowing what needs to be done.

 

That said, the we've seen plenty of evidence that cold logic can not be the way to go. Logic is valuable, but it must be tempered by emotion, passion, and love. We've seen the results of this a few times. It was Ishamael's cold logic that turned him to choose to follow the dark one. He logically concluded that the cyclical nature of the wheel was pointless, and that everything would be better if the wheel was stopped. Rand almost came to the same conclusion at the end of TGS, but is luckily saved by determining a purpose in living. In contrast, cold reason says he should have abandoned Maradon. He should not have risked drawing the dark ones attention, especially on a battle so far gone, but he chose to fight.

 

Actually we see evidence of both sides of spectrum. We see emotion get in the way waaayyy more than we see logic getting in the way. How much negative occurs because of silly emotions?

 

And for your Maradon example, what did his emotions get him? He nearly "Lost it" as he stated, and he can't do it again.

 

This is a world where the end does not justify the means. Aridhol tried to fight the shadow by being as ruthless and merciless as it. One would think killing the shadow means you stand for the light. But it does not. Aridhol became corrupted and evil. Rand realizes this. He cannot just kill the shadow however possible. He must weigh his every decision against his morales and his conscience. Only then can he act. This is why Rand has become Zen Rand.

 

I'd hardly call Aridhol emotionless logic, they were filled with negative emotions, but still emotions. I think so many people confuse Lack of emotions with Negative emotions. There's a huge difference not readily apparenty to many. If you're completely emotionless, you don't do things out of hatred or disdain. Evil is not emotionless, despite popular belief.

[Suttree]

Bwhaha. So the Damona Campaign doesn't count? Despite the entire scene being designed to show his descent starting and what happens when he doesn't listen to those around him that he needs it doesn't count because he wasn't all the way down his descent yet? The very personality attributes that made this bad only got worse as time went on!

 

At that point, he wasn't the "Dark Rand" of which we're speaking of. He wasn't Harder than normal yet. But even if you want ot count it, that's 1.

 

 

Also don't try and turn things around. Why would balefiring a forsaken possibly be wrong? Sure the world would have been destroyed but his actions weren't bad? LOL. He balefired innocents that possiblly could have been saved and didn't even achieve his goal. His target escaped! It was pure luck that he caught anyone. Min and Nyn were horrifed by his actions and rightly so. I suppose they are wrong though as well?

 

Could have been saved. With no guarentee either way, and evidence spoke against it, what choice did he have? Ok, leave the people there (quite possible to come after him at a later date), waste huges amounts of time and effort trying to possibly save them, or destroy them in one blast. Sometimes the few have to die for the many. He didn't even make them suffer. A clean death.

 

You have to realize there is a difference between doing something bad and being pure evil. No one has ever said he was evil. To say his actions were not bad, let alone to say he was never rude to anyone may be the single worst take I have ever seen on any WoT community. No hyperbole I am speaking literally. I am seriously thinking of memoralizing your sentence above in my sig it is so epic. Honestly if I didn't know the usual qality of your posts better I would think you were trolling. By your rational above everyting would have been fine without the epiphany.

 

I can't honestly think of a single time he was rude to anyone. Now, being blunt isn't always rude. Hell, even when he was about to murder Cads with his mind, he politely gave her time to leave. I asked for an example, you can chuckle all you want, and say it's crazy, or give some examples.

 

Quality of my posts? Was that a dig on my posts? Are we really resorting to insults? Is that really necessary?

 

As to the last part, did I ever state that? I did state that without Rational Rand, those incidents would have DESTROYED the world just as surely as you're saying Dark Rand would. Those incidents that you're calling terrible, or bad, would have torn Emotional Rand apart inside.

 

 

I'm merely stating that his actions were not bad or evil or terrible. They were perfectly logical and needed to be done. If you think they weren't offer evidence of what he should have done. History is full of people who claim "Something better could be done, I don't know what, but there has to be a better choice." Sometimes the best choices suck. (Note: I said sometimes, not all the time)

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

That said, the we've seen plenty of evidence that cold logic can not be the way to go. Logic is valuable, but it must be tempered by emotion, passion, and love. We've seen the results of this a few times. It was Ishamael's cold logic that turned him to choose to follow the dark one. He logically concluded that the cyclical nature of the wheel was pointless, and that everything would be better if the wheel was stopped. Rand almost came to the same conclusion at the end of TGS, but is luckily saved by determining a purpose in living. In contrast, cold reason says he should have abandoned Maradon. He should not have risked drawing the dark ones attention, especially on a battle so far gone, but he chose to fight.

 

This is a world where the end does not justify the means. Aridhol tried to fight the shadow by being as ruthless and merciless as it. One would think killing the shadow means you stand for the light. But it does not. Aridhol became corrupted and evil. Rand realizes this. He cannot just kill the shadow however possible. He must weigh his every decision against his morales and his conscience. Only then can he act. This is why Rand has become Zen Rand.

 

Again it is a major theme of text. It should go without saying. The entire Rand storyline was about what happens when he goes brittle due to all "cold logic". The DO almost won as he was seconds away from destroying the world and would have due to that train of though were it not for Cads' plan. Vards is arguing against perhaps the biggest moral lesson RJ placed in the series.

[Lisa Campbell]

 

...

 

We can hardly argue if they were the best choice.They are the only choice we see the results from, so we can not weigh or measure. As for a better choice, I'd say a better decision would be to attempt to save these people. To try as hard as he could to beat Graendal at her game, and keep his conscience clean. But there is no telling how that would end because that decision was not made.

 

Rand failed to kill Graendal even when he tried to outsmart her. I don't see how he could have killed her and still saved the people she had Compelled. And she wasn't always subtle, I'm sure somewhere it states that a lot of her "servants" weren't much good for anything else (Sammael I think when he visited her palace).