Cadsuane

[thisguy]

come on people stop it. We have been at it for how many years now? At least, I have lost count. Only reason these guys defend cads is that they like that character, but I also like that character. In fact, She is one of my favorite side characters in the series. I like her because she brings so much to the story. She adds a whole new dimension into ho we see Rand. She is a great character nad helps the story in getting along and adds to the narrative, these are all given. Problem is that her methods are sometime not very good, but that is also the part of greater narrative. why is it so hard to admit that she does not know it all and there could have been an alternative approach. If you go right back to tEOtW. Moiraine comes out as enigmatic and know it all. In fact, that is the way RJ portrayed her in first few books. her character evolved with the series. Same thing is happening to Cads and Rand. Why is it so hard to swallow?

That I can accept. Now, who else can we argue about? Any suggestions?

[Maleshub]

Now, who else can we argue about? Any suggestions?

 

No one else in this thread

[Vardar]

Actually, the earth heaves as Cyndane fights back. She was already cutting Alivia's weaves. And really, you're not actually providing anything to disprove my point.

 

Go reread the chapter. It's was Alvi's attack. Cyndane was preparing herself after cutting one weave, Alivia was already attacking and the earth weaved. Unless you're suggesting Cyndane can make the earth move without channeling.

[muddasssir]

we can always go back to my favorite sport Kicking the **** out of eggy

[Mr Ares]

Actually, the earth heaves as Cyndane fights back. She was already cutting Alivia's weaves. And really, you're not actually providing anything to disprove my point.

 

Go reread the chapter. It's was Alvi's attack. Cyndane was preparing herself after cutting one weave, Alivia was already attacking and the earth weaved. Unless you're suggesting Cyndane can make the earth move without channeling.

I re-read that section before I posted. It does not support your interpretation.

[Suttree]

Just saw this post from Linda at 13th Depository on Cads. Had forgotten about it but stumbled across this take while looking for something else/. Wanted thisguy and Vards to take a look...

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2010/03/winters-heart-read-through-post-7-about.html?m=1

[thisguy]

thank you for that, sutt. Some I agree with and some I don't.

[Suttree]

thank you for that, sutt. Some I agree with and some I don't.

 

Thought you might enjoy that and I do really like that this dialogue over the last couple months has pushed both sides a bit closer to the middle.

 

One cool point Linda has that I hadn't considered before is this.

 

13th Depository

Finally, her embroidery described in The Path of Daggers, New Alliances is of a Seal being held in a man's hand. It is framed by bands of flowers (roses, starblaze, and sunburst alternating with daisies, heartsblush and snowcap) separated by bands of nettles and long-thorned briars. Presumably the flowers are the good guys and the nasty thorny plants the Shadow.

 

The big deal is the cracks in the Seal and whether the man is holding it together or breaking it. Cadsuane has her own idea on that which she does not share with us, and is waiting on events to indicate whether she is right.

[thisguy]

I'll tell you what I did like that she said - Cadsuane made him keep his word. That I like.

 

This has been my biggest gripe (and I have a couple) with her - her biggest challenge is to make Rand laugh and cry, etc. Looking at everything with that in mind, what she seems to do more than that on an every day level (well, everything we get to see as readers), she just tries to remind him of his manners. Seriously. She never does anything about the laughing and crying thing (at least through KoD, that I can remember) until she gets Tam. And, I have to be honest, a lot of people were upset at her losing it on Tam and tossing him around with the power. Well, she's switched Rand with the power. She's also violent. Even in her background, she resorts to physical violence with people to get her way..... but.... sticking to my point - she does nothing to make him laugh and cry. There are certain things about RJ's writing that I'm not thrilled about - even though with many I can find a reason why he might have written things a certain way. Overall, I think he's a very good writer. I think he may have failed to bring about what he says in his notes about Cadsuane and what he shows on the page to the reader. It's just my opinion but it really has not changed.

[BFG]

*pounds head, try to re-mem-ber*

 

Wasn't it Sorilea who mentioned laughing and crying? I think Cads agrees, but I thought when reading it that she had an ulterior motive.

 

But you're right, her focus seems to be on sorting out his arrogance and manners.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*says in very small voice* Hate to sound lazy, but could you point me in the direction of which book, I haven't read that far in my re-read yet and I don't have PDFs to do a word search :(

[Suttree]

*pounds head, try to re-mem-ber*

 

Wasn't it Sorilea who mentioned laughing and crying? I think Cads agrees, but I thought when reading it that she had an ulterior motive.

 

But you're right, her focus seems to be on sorting out his arrogance and manners.

 

Cads says it and what's further she has never had ulterior motives. She swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She has had his back harder than anyone else besides Min possibly.

 

"The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

"He is turning into a stone, Verin, and if he doesn't relearn that he's human, winning the Last Battle may not be much better than losing.

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

[mjasghar786]

Aes sedai routinely use the OP to hit people as punishment - look at how Siuan smacked Nyn about and there is routine air weave as switch

Also that Cad is starting it to lose it at that point, seeing dark rand emerging and scared to be seen by him yet her duty forces her to stay close

Finally it's clear that 2 rivers men are the complete opposite of far madding men which is the basis of her views on men

[Suttree]

Aes sedai routinely use the OP to hit people as punishment - look at how Siuan smacked Nyn about and there is routine air weave as switch

Also that Cad is starting it to lose it at that point, seeing dark rand emerging and scared to be seen by him yet her duty forces her to stay close

Finally it's clear that 2 rivers men are the complete opposite of far madding men which is the basis of her views on men

 

She switched him with air once and it was long before what you reference...

 

KoD

 

 

“As soon as possible!” Rand snapped, slamming his fist down on the chair arm hard enough to make the wood creak loudly.

“One,” Cadsuane said, quite clearly and quite incomprehensibly....

Rand leaped up so fast that his sword bound for a moment on the chair arm. Only a moment because the gilded wood, weakened by his earlier blow, split with a loud crack, and the arm dropped to the carpet. He never so much as glanced at it. The fools! The Seanchan at the border with Altara, and they were coming back to Tear? “Doesn’t anybody remember how to obey?” he thundered. “I want messengers sent to them immediately! They’re to return to Illian faster than they left or I’ll have the lot of them hanged!”

“Two,” Cadsuane said. What in the Light was she counting? “A bit of advice, boy. Ask her what happened this morning. I smell good news.”...

“Three,” Cadsuane said, and Rand’s skin popped out in goose bumps an instant before something struck him across the bottom like a hard-swung switch. Bera’s lips parted in shock, and the cloak slid off her arm to the floor. Nynaeve laughed. She smothered it quickly, but she laughed! “Don’t make me have to keep reminding you about manners. boy.” Cadsuane went on. “Alanna told me the terms you offered before she left-Darlin as Steward, your laws kept, everything else on the table-and it seems they’ve been met. You can do as you wish, of course, but another piece of advice. When the terms you offer are accepted, hold to them.” Else no one will trust you, Lews Therin said, sounding entirely sane. For the moment.

Rand glared at Cadsuane, fists clenched hard, on the brink of weaving something that would singe her. He could feel a welt on his bottom, and would feel it more in the saddle. It seemed to pulse, and his anger pulsed with it. She peered back calmly over her wine. Was there a hint of challenge in her gaze, of daring him to channel? The woman spent every moment in his presence challenging him! The trouble was, her advice was good.

 

As for her views on men she left Far Madding at an early age and has been succesful in the world for over 300 years. Per RJ she is "remarkably adaptable", she quite clearly does not allow the bias of that city to enter into her thought process. She states her method out right for us here...

 

WH

But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all."

 

and is spot on in her assesment of his character...

 

ACoS

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim

Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

[BFG]

*pounds head, try to re-mem-ber*

 

Wasn't it Sorilea who mentioned laughing and crying? I think Cads agrees, but I thought when reading it that she had an ulterior motive.

 

But you're right, her focus seems to be on sorting out his arrogance and manners.

 

Cads says it and what's further she has never had ulterior motives. She swore to do what was best for him, not herself or the WT. She has had his back harder than anyone else besides Min possibly.

 

"The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

 

- The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

"He is turning into a stone, Verin, and if he doesn't relearn that he's human, winning the Last Battle may not be much better than losing.

 

- Winter’s Heart, Bonds

 

Thanks Suttree,

 

I didn't mean an ulterior motive in a bad way. My memory (once again obviously faulty - hence asking for a referal to the relavent chapter (in a very small and shameful voice)) thought that it was Sorilea prioritising laughter and tears, but that Cads may have had other priorities. Various posts have convinced me that her motives were right (as in not a DF), but I have to agree with thisguy that we rarely/never see her acting to make him laugh (or cry as an emotional response). I'm looking forward to catching up with her in my reread and seeing if this board has changed my opinion significantly or not.

[mjasghar786]

She still refers to men in her pov as boys - one of her first pov has her thinking it would have been easier of rand had been born in far madding

[Suttree]

She still refers to men in her pov as boys - one of her first pov has her thinking it would have been easier of rand had been born in far madding

 

Right and this is because she has rightly guaged his character and knew it would be easier to deal with him if he had been born there. As for calling him boy, she also calls AS girls. It has nothing to do with where she is born, she is one of the oldest people in the Westlands after all.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

She still refers to men in her pov as boys - one of her first pov has her thinking it would have been easier of rand had been born in far madding

 

Right and this is because she has rightly guaged his character and knew it would be easier to deal with him if he had been born there. As for calling him boy, she also calls AS girls. It has nothing to do with where she is born, she is one of the oldest people in the Westlands after all.

The one thing I like about her referring to others as "boy" or "girl" was Rand's stating that he is at least a century older than her after VoG. For me it was relieving to see Rand at a calm and amiable state, so that he could deal with Cadsuane remarks without blowing his top off, but instead as a "normal"(as normal as he can get at least) human being.

Besides it completely throws the age thing out of the window. I don't think it has to do at all with how old she is in comparison to everyone else, but instead its how those people act. If they act like a boy instead of a man she will call them as such.

 

As a side note in case you cannot figure out where I stand, I respect Cadsuane as a character and think she was a much needed tool in the story. But that doesn't mean I necessarily liked the character. But that's the beauty of WoT. One character can't ruin the series for you.

 

Hey how do you guys think Cadsuane would deal with the incredibly arrogant Egwene?

[Damer Sedai]

She still refers to men in her pov as boys - one of her first pov has her thinking it would have been easier of rand had been born in far madding

 

Right and this is because she has rightly guaged his character and knew it would be easier to deal with him if he had been born there. As for calling him boy, she also calls AS girls. It has nothing to do with where she is born, she is one of the oldest people in the Westlands after all.

 

Its a minor point, but Cadsuane calls all men 'boy" no matter their age (with the exception, interestingly enough, of Dobraine) but reserves "girl" for Nynaeve and Alanna, Min, anyone who is actually young (or she is displeased with), but not nearly the same regularity. She uses the term in the exact same vernacular we see females in Far Madding use the term. I agree that cadsuane is adaptable, but there is no evidence in the books that Cadsuane is perfectly free of all bias, and I dont think those notes that RJ released say that either. Its an affectation anyway, she doesn't really mean it as a diminishing or insulting term the way it is in a modern context.

 

As for the wish he was raised in Far Madding, she just is expressing her frustration that Rand isnt biddable... A Dragon Reborn from Far Madding would probably be a disaster of its own kind (and Cadsuane seems to note the problem as well)

[Suttree]

She still refers to men in her pov as boys - one of her first pov has her thinking it would have been easier of rand had been born in far madding

 

Right and this is because she has rightly guaged his character and knew it would be easier to deal with him if he had been born there. As for calling him boy, she also calls AS girls. It has nothing to do with where she is born, she is one of the oldest people in the Westlands after all.

The one thing I like about her referring to others as "boy" or "girl" was Rand's stating that he is at least a century older than her after VoG. For me it was relieving to see Rand at a calm and amiable state, so that he could deal with Cadsuane remarks without blowing his top off, but instead as a "normal"(as normal as he can get at least) human being.

 

She always was always aware of staying on the right side of that line however...as I quoted earlier.

 

"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance .... Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear."

 

You are very much correct in that she treats people based upon their actions. As for Egwene I have the feeling that they will get on quite while for all that Cads never saw swollen head without trying to deflate it.

[JeNeal Olsen]

Cadsuane is amazing. She needed to get Rand over his pitty party or he would have lost all credibility with me. Anyone who has the guts to spank a Forsaken is my hero.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Hey, Jarlaxle! First Post, hah? Well, welcome! :)

 

I personally have never understood the 'Anti-Cadsuane' sentiment here. I LOVE Cads. In fact, if you'd like to know the truth, she is one of my favorite characters - definitely Top Ten.

 

To me, she may be the most effective and efficient character ever. Too many of them wallow in sellf-pity are seem almost scared to get things done. Cads gets TO IT! One of my favorite scenes ever is that one part in that one book where she totally puts that one character in her place and is all like ''If you EVER touch me again...!'' Another awesome time is when she marches right into that one town and breaks that chick's crown to get Rand back after he'd gotten himself Dragon-Napped...AGAIN!!! She pretty much single-handedly saved the day at the end of WH during The Cleaning. And she was cold as ice, ice, ICE, baby, with Semi! ''Howdy; nice to meet ya - lookin forward to chattin!'' LOL!!!

 

Rand would probably be dead long ago without her.

 

 

Fish

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I LOVE when she gives Semirhage a spanking...

[flinn]

 I am a firm believer in the Golden Rule.

 

If people treated Cadsuane the way she treated other people she would go full out postal.

I do like Cadsuane, but she runs roughshod over everyone.

[Finnssss22]

I liked Cad's too.

Mainly due to her POV chapters.

She was unlike most characters in the series who's internal thoughts or reactions didn't change much from what they were thinking to what they actually said or did.

Much like in Mat's POV's, Cad's internal thoughts or telling herself what she should do or how she should handle a situation rarely translated into what she actually did do.

 

Mat and Cad's actually shared a lot of parallels in behaviors and reactions.

Mat spanking Jolene/Cad's spanking Semirhage

Upon meeting back up with Talmanes in Altara he says to himself he shouldn't be angry and won't be angry but he just can't help himself and is any way/Cad's gets a finger poke to the face by a Seafolk woman. Cad's says to herself that she needs to be diplomatic and hold her temper but she can't help herself either. Both say to themselves afterwards that maybe they didn't have as much reign on their anger as they thought they did.

 

For me, I found her and Mat to be the most unpredictable characters in the series especially in their own POV's.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I think, from rereading certain books lately, that Cadsuane knew to a certain extent what her big weaknesses were...after living 300 years, most people would (Chosen excluded)... remember how she broke Semirhage, she just put herself in Semirhage's shoes, she knew that like Semirhage, she leaned on her reputation a great deal, maybe a bit too much