one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

As to her letter to Rand, why mention Asmodean at all in the letter if she planned to kill him? And if she didn't plan it in advance, then how is the letter evidence of her intent?

 

The letter is not evidence of intent. Contrary to the insistance of the anti-Moiraine crowd, it doesn't show a lack of intent either. Not being able to act doesn't mean a no desire to act. She knew she couldn't do anything before hand because any variance to the Rhuidean visions could spell disaster. She didn't know she would have a chance to kill Asmodean later. That gives a solid reason for her to warn Rand to be careful of him It doesn't mean she didn't want to kill him or wouldn't kill him if a future opportunity arose..

 

Why would she kill a man, even a Forsaken, that Rand had chained to his will ACCORDING TO THE PROPHECIES?

 

"I cannot approve wholly, but I understand. Perhaps it was the only way."

 

Does that say she accepted his interpretation of the prophesies? Not at all, never even mentions them. Does she say she agreed with his actions? Not even remotely. It is pure Aes Sedai double speak. Does she say it was necessary? No, she doesn't. In a desperate last attempt to get a point across, you don't lambaste someone for being foolish. By allowing Rand to think she accepted his decisions, even if she didn't, the chances that he would listen to her advice are increased.

[havoc110]

Tell me why she would mention Asmodean for no reason, last, in a fading letter, that is to be her pivotal communication with the Dragon Reborn before she leaves the world.

 

Ok, Moiraine is telling Rand that she knew Natael's identity, and that it is testimony to how she had changed (reiteration of her thoughts in the Verin paragraph). It is a statement from her saying that she was content to not be pulling the strings at the end. From their previous relationship, this is the message. Rand has been, is, and will be controlling his own destiny.

 

This statement is a very important one in the epic formula story. It's the moment when the hero is no longer just following the mentor, he becomes complete as the hero.

 

Jonn and CW, you would believe the opposite, that Moiraine is still pulling strings, even now. Look at Gandalf, look at Obi-Wan. You'll see the same moment... But for some reason that doesn't happen in WOT. And that reason is so that Moiraine can be the killer?

 

Who exactly is self-serving here?

 

My analysis of the letter stands on its own, as does I believe my observations above. However, I am neither a writer nor an English professor.

 

But I know a summary statement when I see one. And the end of that letter is not a summary statement. If my wife writes me a note that she is going to the store, and ends with "Oh, and take out the trash." Taking out the trash, while it is important, and I may disregard it at my peril, is not the function of the note. Neither is it the primary point of the note. It is certainly not a summary of critical points made in the body of the note.

 

I would be very surprised if after reading this note, she secretly came back from the store, took out the trash, and returned to the store, leaving me to wonder forever who took out the trash...

[cannon]

Tell me why she would mention Asmodean for no reason, last, in a fading letter, that is to be her pivotal communication with the Dragon Reborn before she leaves the world.

 

She mentions Asmodean for the same reason she warns him of the Aes Sedai. Warning.

 

In any close relationship, especially a mentor/student relationship that Rand and Asmodean have developed, you begin to inadvertantly trust the person. It is most likely that Moiraine worries about Rand getting too careless around Asmodean.

 

She simply reminds him that he should be careful because people don't change, and he's still dangerous.

 

She doesn't mention him for no reason, and she doesn't mention him off-handedly. She's very specific, but it's nothing more than a warning.

 

I'm sorry but Moiraine has no motive to kill Asmodean. And even if you believe she does, she had much better oppurtunity at ANY time while in the Aiel Waste. Regardless of your interpretation of the letter, it makes no sense for her to kill Asmo AFTER being trapped by the Finns.

[Jonn]

As to her letter to Rand, why mention Asmodean at all in the letter if she planned to kill him? And if she didn't plan it in advance, then how is the letter evidence of her intent?

 

Maybe as justification. The letter is designed with the purpose of giving Rand a bit of insight into what Moiraine was thinking. Rand was always wondering what was driving Moiraine, what were the reasons behind her actions, her ploys. She knew she had to go through the doorway with Lanfear if Rand were to have a chance. This is explained in the first part of the letter. The second part of the letter is her trying to guide Rand after she is gone in some way, as futile as that may be. She is limited in what she can do obviously and she really is not sure if she can have an effect on matters after going through the doorway. Whether she can or can't, it was obviously important for her to either warn Rand about Asmodean or to remind him that Asmodean is as bad as they come as justification before he is killed.

 

Notice that after Asmodean disappears, Rand makes next to no attempt to look for him or even bother too much with the fact that he's gone.

 

Also food for thought; Lews Therin started to really strongly influence Rand after Asmodean's exit. Some may see that as a literary device, I see it as Amsodean's exit was well timed, in fact, called for by the story. Lews Therin wants to kill everyone including Rand and himself. Imagine how much Rand would have to fight Lews Therin on a daily basis if one of his mortal enemies were hanging around every day, for an even longer period of time. This could lead to a number of bad situations including Lews Therin seizing control even more dramtically than he did at the country house in Tear.

 

The letter's mention of Asmodean, at the least, had helped Rand to cope with losing what he used to see as a valuable well of knowledge, with little trouble of mind.

 

It still stands that the mention in the letter showed that Asmodean was one of the prominent thoughts Moiraine had in her mind before she was to leave.

 

Now, another point I'd really like to see someone address.

 

Motive is a part of the speculation on Moiraine's willingness to kill Asmodean. Potential evidence against that motive is a part of this discussion. This prophecy, which applies to Asmodean and Rand, and was known by Moiraine, constitutes such an example.

 

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh/

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin/

The Reborn One[Rand, obviously], marked and bleeding[herons, dragons, never-healing wound]/

dances the sword[Aiel metaphor for battle, with Rand's weapon] in dreams and mist [Rhuidean held the Aiel's dreams in a shield of mist]/

chains the Shadowsworn[ASMODEAN] to his will/

from the city, lost and forsaken[Rhuidean]/

leads the spears[Aiel] to war once more/

breaks the spears and makes them see/

truth long hidden in the ancient dream[by telling them the secret history revealed in the pillars]."

 

(The Shadow Rising, Doorways, p.109-110)

 

I have included interpretation in brackets, to show how this applies to the situation with Rand and Asmodean. Moiraine has shown a propensity for taking the Prophecies of the Dragon very seriously. Why would she kill a man, even a Forsaken, that Rand had chained to his will ACCORDING TO THE PROPHECIES? Rand had proven to her that she misinterpreted that prophecy the first time. She would have had him going after Sammael. But she was wrong about that one, and she knew it. Why would she then deliberately act against a fulfilled prophecy, one she knew Rand had gotten right in spite of her? That kind of risk for little gain and much potential loss (she knew Rand had learned much from him as a teacher) is not smart, and Moiraine is smart.

 

It's an interesting point you make, but Asmodean wasn't necesarily chained. Not in the way it would be read by anyone who had casual knowledge of their relationship. Even Moiraine wouldn't be able to see how Asmodean would be aiding Rand, teaching him for no reason. Moiraine doesn't have the angles we do as the audience to these scenes. She knows that she's dealing with Lanfear and Jasin Natael. She doesn't exactly know what binds the man to Rand. For all of the interaction she sees between the two, Asmodean is about as free as anyone to move about and do what he will. He doesn't seem chained at all. He follows Rand's lead, but he doesn't seem a prisoner. Not to the casual eye or even someone who knows what he really is.

 

The other problem with prophecy is that it can be misinterpretted rather easily. The order and emphasis on events could be jumbled in translation. The meaning could be tuned to one set of events, when the message really is jumping around from one event in line to another out of place.

 

I'll give an example.

 

Right now, Rand actually has a Shadowsworn chained, though I'm not certain it is to his will. Yet, if someone were to go back to the prophecy, read that line, and look at the situation. They would see a fulfillment of prophecy in Semhirage prisoner to the Dragon Reborn.

If Jasin Natael turns out to be forsaken, they see Rand consorting with a demon in disguise, allowing the man to move freely with no chains that they can see. How does that fulfill prophecy?

 

From what we know of RJ, he doesn't set things up like this on accident. Details from 5 books earlier come back and reveal relevance to events 5-10 years after they've been to print.

 

Let's look at the first couple of lines in the prophecy:

 

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh/

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin/ "

 

Now...what does that mean? What relevance does that have to the events in Shadow Rising?

 

I can't really come up with anything solid. Let's look at the rest of the prophecy.

 

"The Reborn One, marked and bleeding

dances the sword in dreams and mist"

 

Sounds like Rand is the Reborn One. Marked and bleeding fits Rands profile. Now, dancing the sword in dreams and mist. That's vague. It could mean the mist of Rhuidean as RAW points, or it could just mean confusion or concealment, and it could refer to tel'aran'rhiod...It's hard to be sure.

 

chains the Shadowsworn to his will

 

Again, this could refer to Asmodean or Semirhage at this point.

 

from the city, lost and forsaken/

 

This is where it gets a little weird to me. See I'm still wondering what the first part of the prophecy means. "Power of the Shadow made human flesh." There is a vagueness here as well. Rhuidean is a lost city in the sense that it's a city no one really knows about. I wouldn't say it was forsaken though. The Aiel revere it as pretty much a holy site. Perhaps forsaken because no one would live there, but later it becomes inhabited...

 

leads the spears to war once more/

breaks the spears and makes them see/

truth long hidden in the ancient dream

 

This section is the part of the prophecy that is most obvious to me.

 

Which leads me back to my question of the fist line. Power of Shadow made human flesh...It's not Rand. It's the piece that really doesn't fit.

 

Now, if I were to hypothesize, I'd say that power of shadow made human flesh refers to Moridin. He uses the True Power, and after being killed, he will have wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin. Why? Because of the Reborn One who chains the shadowsouled to his will. In that case the city that was lost and forsaken could be Shadar Logoth with Rand dancing the sword in dream and mist. This is where Moridin makes his appearance to Rand. But what does that have to do with events in Shadow Rising?

 

Prophecy is funny like that isn't it? It's supposed to fit in a nice package, each stanza detailing one event happening after another in perfect order. Just as Moiraine may have misinterpretted the prophecy to mean that Rand must chain Sammael (I'm not really convinced of that), any reader may misinterpret these events to happen in chronological order or be applicable to each other as harmoniously as reading a linear story.

 

Look at people who have Fortellings and Dream. Do they dream events in order and with perfect understanding? No. They just randomly spout what they see, and the visions don't always coincide with one another. Look at Nicola's and Elaida's foretelling. They're often disjointed and little of it is understandable even to the one who foretold it. Egwene is often more confused by her visions than she is enlightened. Even Min is distressed by the way many misinterpret her true visions.

 

Now, we're looking at an ancient prophecy, and deciphering it in a linear manner as it relates to just the Shadow Rising chapter of the tale.

 

That's not always wise. It's also not always wise to look at a vague prophecy as a proof of any sort.

 

If you're looking at the prophecy discussed here as a proof that Moiraine wouldn't kill Asmodean, it's not a very strong point to make.

 

Moiraine could easily see that Rand would have chained Asmodean, and still kill him. Her killing Asmodean doesn't prevent the man from having been chained. Rand fulfilled the prophecy of chaining a shadowsworn.

 

Nothing in that prophecy says that no one is going to kill the shadowsworn after it happens.

 

Fact is, Rand needed Asmodean at the time and that was dangerous. Keeping a forsaken captive is dicey at best. The girls may have captured Moghedien, but they gained an enemy that could chose to strike from the shadows literally at any time. Nynaeve knows this all too well. We'll disregard the fact that Moghedien's failed attack resulted in Nynaeve's block being broken, and a fairly romantic reunion with Lan. FAte makes for strange bedfellows. lol

 

I digress...Forsaken as captives doesn't usually result in exactly what you may plan for. Moghedien managed to escape. Doubtless Semirhage in captivity is going to present some unique challenges. Asmodean had some definite pitfalls in holding. That was the main point I was trying to make.

 

It's just one of several reasons to kill Asmodean.

 

Moghedien was trying to kill the girls before they captured her. So its not like they made a new enemy when they took her. And so far, she's the only one to escape a leash.

 

Actually, Moghedien was trying to capture the girls and to control them. The girls returned the favor.

 

Your "doubtless" assumption about Semirhage is just that, pure assumption.

 

I said that she was going to prove a rather interesting person to have as a captive, with unique challenges. You doubt that? After RJ pointed out so vividly that she's escaped before through intimidation alone? If it makes you happy, I'll strike "doubtless" from my statement since you harbor doubt. I guess that was rather presumptuous of me.

 

And what pitfalls did Asmodean have? Exposure was not a serious danger, especially AFTER Lanfear, Kadere, and Isendre were all gone. And his POVs demonstrate clearly that he was not even considering betraying Rand. He was focused on "clinging to his tuft of grass." The fact is he was chained, dangerous only to the Forsaken as he enabled Rand to learn the rudiments of the Power. Rand could not even seize saidin every time he tried until Asmodean taught him. Considering his upcoming battles, Asmodean's teachings saved his butt. And, to demonstrate how this relates to the Moiraine argument, it goes to her motive, or lack thereof. He was chained, and she knew it as prophecy fulfilled.

 

Exactly, prophecy fulfilled. The man was chained, but where in the prophecy does it say that Moiraine Damodred is not to kill him? Oh yes, nowhere...

 

Jasin Natael is the same man he ever was. That's basically what Moiraine said to Rand. That's what she thought of him. It doesn't matter what Asmodean thought. If the murderer had reason to kill him, it doesn't matter what the victim's intent was. Moiriane thought of him as a problem enough to close her letter with a warning to Rand about him. That doesn't denote any confidence in trusting the man or his inner drives. Asmodean's intent is irrelevant.

 

Do you think the prophecy means something else? Or that Moiraine didnt understand it after it happened? Or that she just chose to disregard it? It has to be one of those three.

 

Now, you're the one being assuming. ;)

 

Moiraine doesn't need to refer to the prophecy to kill Asmodean. If Rand is to chain Asmodean, then so be it. Nothing in the prophecy says that no one is allowed to kill him. The proof of this is that the man is dead.

 

The prophecy doesn't protect Asmodean at all.

 

Moiraine's a smart woman, she would have picked that detail out rather easily.

[Cybertrolloc]

Not being able to act doesn't mean a no desire to act. She knew she couldn't do anything before hand because any variance to the Rhuidean visions could spell disaster.

I don't get this from our last view of Moiraine in Choices. She looks around: Rand on his knees laughing and crying while fighting Lanfear' date=' Lan down for the count (Warder/Aes Sedai should be able to do better than that, but RJ hadn't written much about people who are bonded yet) then the vision from Rhuidean, Lanfear next to the doorway. Don't remember if I brought this up the first 50 times you've argued this.

 

Notice that after Asmodean disappears, Rand makes next to no attempt to look for him or even bother too much with the fact that he's gone.

I don't have anything from the month between FoH and LoC. Perhaps you'll direct us to the low profile novel Jordan wrote that covered this time? And why is Rand still wondering about whether he'll have to face Asmo a year later if he doesn't care at all?

 

Also the prophesies were made 3000 years ago, the main one from tSR is about as plain and specific as they get ;)

[Jonn]

Tell me why she would mention Asmodean for no reason, last, in a fading letter, that is to be her pivotal communication with the Dragon Reborn before she leaves the world.

 

She mentions Asmodean for the same reason she warns him of the Aes Sedai. Warning.

 

As one of two warnings in her last letter, it's best to take these mere warnings seriously.

 

The warning about Aes Sedai was well founded as we saw in Lord of Chaos when Rand ignored Moiraine's warning about Alviarin and was captured.

 

In any close relationship, especially a mentor/student relationship that Rand and Asmodean have developed, you begin to inadvertantly trust the person. It is most likely that Moiraine worries about Rand getting too careless around Asmodean.

 

She simply reminds him that he should be careful because people don't change, and he's still dangerous.

She doesn't mention him for no reason, and she doesn't mention him off-handedly. She's very specific, but it's nothing more than a warning.

 

Isn't that a bit too obvious for advice? Of course he shouldn't trust Asmodean. I doubt he really ever trusted Asmodean at any time. On the surface it seems as obvious to not trusting Aes Sedai. In that case though, specific names that Moiraine included turn out to be clues as to how Rand should approach certain Aes Sedai; with a healthy does of skepticism for those who try to manipulate him overzealously.

 

Asmodean is her closing note. That's significant. I can't think she's just warning Rand to be obvious. That was never Moiraine's M.O. Cairhienin and Aes Sedai, and Moiraine we're talking about here. No, "obvious" is not the word that describes how that woman communicates.

 

There's meaning behind meaning, and meaning behind that. It's fair to scrutinize her letter to Rand as deeply as we can, as readers.

 

I'm sorry but Moiraine has no motive to kill Asmodean. And even if you believe she does, she had much better oppurtunity at ANY time while in the Aiel Waste. Regardless of your interpretation of the letter, it makes no sense for her to kill Asmo AFTER being trapped by the Finns.

 

Again :roll: killing Asmodean before the docks tips off Lanfear and would change what would have happened there.

 

It's not hard to grasp folks. I'll say it as many times as needed.

 

Lanfear is the target of most import, because she is the strongest threat to Rand. Everything is predicated by her exit through the doorway. Yes, even killing Asmodean is less important than killing Lanfear.

 

Asmodean is one of the strings Lanfear has tied to Rand. If you cut it before you're ready to go after Lanfear, she will change her approach to things and be on her guard. That is unacceptable.

 

Things must go off in a specific way if you want to eliminate Lanfear.

[havoc110]

This is just more overblown nonsense about Asmo's overall importance.

 

Tip Lanfear off how? Like she would feel it somehow? Like she would care what happens to him anyway? It's certainly not as if she was plying Asmo for info. Remember that it is plausible that they were going to kill Asmo in Illian the night before anyway. For all Lanfear's bragging about "watching Rand", she's sure inept at it. If that were the case she wouldn't be finding about Avi from Kadere now would she? And, regardless of what happens to Asmo, Lanfear is gonna find out about Avi and go berserk. Don't you think Asmo would have jumped at the chance to tell Lanfear, to be the one to set her into the mindless rage. Look at his POV "...Lanfear especially, for what she had done to him." So, a person could conclude that there was not a connection between Lanfear and Asmo.

 

 

Also much overrated is this "Asmo had to be at the docks" theory. There is nothing Asmo does, or says that has any import at all between the docks and getting killed. If he had some key role to play out, maybe I could see it, such as taking a Rahvin trap lightning bolt for Rand. Or something that he had to teach him. But there's nothing there, just more mere speculation that he had to be there cause he was in Moiraine's vision. Again, the text only mentions Lanfear and Rand as being in the vision.

[Guest cwestervelt]

By announcing the charade was up maybe? Unless the secret was out, no one around him would have a reason to kill him.

 

There is any number of viable reasons Moiraine would not have killed Asmodean earlier than she did. The most likely all stem from the visions she received in Rhuidean. We don't know everything she was shown, but we know she was shown every possible action she would take, and what the consequence of that action would be. This was confirmed by Aviendha with the adittional information that only an impression of right or wrong concerning a course of action remains for most things. Moiraine would have been shown every possible instance where she could kill Asmodean, and what the consequences would be. Nothing in that is groundless speculation or invention and all of it has supporting evidence scattered throughout the books. If she received a fealing of foreboding every time she considered killing him, she would refrain from taking action at that time. We don't need to know what the consequence would be, we just need to trust in Moiraine to heed the warning.

 

The books do not tell us everything about Moiraine's visions so we can't tell you what would have happen if she killed Asmodean at the wrong time. All we can do is speculate as to what possible consequences might prevent her from doing so. Moiraine herself might not even remember the consequences of an action but she would still have a guiding infuence from the impressions left behind by her visions. The books have told us that in undeniable terms. If you can't accept what is stated clearly in the books, then obviously I will not be able to make you grasp the more abstract possibilities that result from those facts. Jordan deliberately left a very large hole in the information he provided concerning Moiraine's visions while providing ample data to conclude she saw much more than was revealed. Attempting to fill in that hole requires speculation and an open mind.

[Guest cwestervelt]

havoc110: Also much overrated is this "Asmo had to be at the docks" theory. There is nothing Asmo does, or says that has any import at all between the docks and getting killed. If he had some key role to play out, maybe I could see it, such as taking a Rahvin trap lightning bolt for Rand. Or something that he had to teach him. But there's nothing there, just more mere speculation that he had to be there cause he was in Moiraine's vision. Again, the text only mentions Lanfear and Rand as being in the vision.

 

Only if you persist in being narrow minded. The text only directly mentions Rand and Lanfear and that is because she is explaining to Rand why things had to happen. We are told that Moiraine had the horses readied before she went to see Rand. Unless she knew who was actually going to be present at the docks, how did she do that? The simple answer is that she was shown in her vision. We weren't told everything she saw, just enough to know she saw more than revealed to us.

[Zacharias]

First up, let me just say that some of you get WAY too emotional about your theories, and your disagreement with other peoples theories. Its a book remember? Anything can happen in between the details we are directly informed of. And Jordan could write a formidable explanation for whatever character he has chosen to be Asmo's killer (and thus it would be fact because he IS the creator, lol).

 

Personally i never even considered Greandal until i saw her mentioned on this site, it seems such an absurd stretching of the imagination. My feelings tell me that Jordan would favor a direct order from the dark one to kill asmo, and for that reason the obvious choice for me has always been Shadar Haran or Moridin.

 

Forget if they werent in the books much at that point or whatever...they still existed and were still the direct hand of the dark one in the world. The dark one knows more than any of the forsaken, much more, and no doubt he'd be angry that one of his chosen few was making his enemy stronger everyday.

 

Considering how active Shadar Haran is in his carrying out of orders, he's the one im still leaning towards.

 

But hey, if Jordan told us tomorow that Bela killed asmo, then Bela DID kill asmo, lol, its fiction and he creates our truth.

 

cya

[havoc110]

Only if you persist in being narrow minded. The text only directly mentions Rand and Lanfear and that is because she is explaining to Rand why things had to happen. We are told that Moiraine had the horses readied before she went to see Rand. Unless she knew who was actually going to be present at the docks, how did she do that? The simple answer is that she was shown in her vision. We weren't told everything she saw, just enough to know she saw more than revealed to us.

 

I was referring to Moiraine's POV, not the letter, but since you are so kind to add it, there are 2 descriptions of the vision in the text, and they mention Rand and Lanfear. Not Rand, Lanfear, and a bard that Moriaine realizes is Asmo in disguise. There is a good description there, you should read it some time.

[Paradoxic]

"...

Considering how active Shadar Haran is in his carrying out of orders, he's the one im still leaning towards.

..." - Zacharias

 

RJ has said that the killer should be obvious at the moment of his death. SH was not introduced until the next book. Ergo, he is not a valid choice.

 

By the way, good to see the argument is progressing without much change (nice to see you again Havoc and CW). These arguments and theories have, with minor variations, been going on for at least 2 years as far as I have been involved in the message boards.

 

Keep up the good fight (go Graendal)

[edman]

Wow. The first time I read it, I thought that it was somehow Ishamael who killed Asmodean. Personally, it's never been a big deal to me, but I really enjoy reading the theories. Very interesting. One thing that I don't understand (sorry if this has been discussed before, but i can't read 100+ pages of post) is why would Asmodean be shocked at his attacker if they were a Forsaken. Wouldn't he be more casual about it like 'Oh, hey Graendal.' or 'What's up Sammael?'. Ok RJ wouldn't write junk like that, but you get my drift. Would they know he was cut off from the DO? I guess they could if they went to Shayoul Ghool(sp). It just seems that something in his voice tells me that it was the last person on Randland he was expecting.

[Cybertrolloc]

My feelings tell me that Jordan would favor a direct order from the dark one to kill asmo' date=' and for that reason the obvious choice for me has always been Shadar Haran or Moridin.[/quote']

It would be nice to have that option to consider. RJ has dribbled out some info over the years, the fact the DO didn't order the hit being an important one. There's a rather large handful of them, all over this bloated thread.

[Graendals favourite]

Hello, Paradoxic. Graendal is doing well :)

 

Edman, it was the shock of terror Asmo experienced. When he recognised the person, he involuntarily stopped, the blood drawing from his face. Well, he wasn't likely to expect anyone, he opened a random door, and the storm was supposed to have passed, but Asmo knew very well that any Forsaken would kill him if they could. They could after all recognise him, and he knew he would be defenseless if he should encounter them. Look how frightened he was in Cairhien about the prospect of Rand leaving him there alone. Mere surprise is insufficient to draw blood.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Robert Jordan explicitly said that the Dark One did not order Asmodean's execution.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=96

 

(It's the answer to question 10)

 

And he did say, more than once, that we had all the information we needed in the books up to and including The Fires of Heaven. Since neither Shadar Haran, nor Moridin had appeared at the point, it could be neither of them. Actually, to that point, we hadn't seen any of the Forsaken transmigrated, so we didn't really KNOW Ishamael was coming back. The first two transmigrated were Aginor and Balthamel, who appear for the first time, with Shaidar Haran, in the prolgue to Lord of Chaos as Osan'gar and Aran'gar, respectively.

[havoc110]

Here's something which may or may not be new:

 

From Wikipedia:

 

It is interesting to note that Asmodean, while being completely useless to the Shadow, was almost single-handedly responsible for the survival of Rand, the Champion of the Light. After turning to the Shadow and being remembered for an Age as one of the worst human beings ever known, Asmodean has indirectly saved the world.

 

 

Anyone want to comment on this? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[RobertAlexWillis]

edman

 

Yes, the Forsaken knew that Asmodean was with Rand and teaching them, because Lanfear told them. Asmodean knew that they knew, because Lanfear told him that she would tell them. Asmodean expected that and "Chosen" he met would kill him on sight. He said as much to Rand. So, seing one of the Forsaken (Graendal, I believe) would certainly elicit the response that we saw in the book. And the result, too.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Another angle on the Moiraine question ... from something that I just thought of.

 

There is evidence that Moiraine has been stilled. You see, her bond with Lan was broken. Only two things forcibly break that bond. Death, and stilling.

 

If she's dead, the question of her killing Asmodean is moot. Since we pretty much know she's not dead ... she must have been stilled.

 

We know she didn't simply release Lan, because that doesn't produce the "living-death" effect (per Robert Jordan, http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 question 13) Also, it is not an effect of simply being in the Eelfinn world, since that world is part of the Pattern, and anyway, nothing bad happened to Lan when she went through the one in Tear.

 

So she must have been stilled. That frequently happens when women channel unadvisedly around ter'angreal. And making it melt into slag is certainly inadvisable.

 

This explains a couple of things. One, why the Eelfinn would be able to hold Moiraine prisoner. Two, Lanfear's death. Either she died in the Power backlash that stilled Moiraine, or the Eelfinn killed her, as they easily could is she was unable to channel.

 

It also makes Moiraine unable to kill Asmodean ... weak as he was shielded, he would still be able to take Moiraine stilled. As formidable as Moiraine is (and not all of that came from the Power) she is not a great PHYSICAL threat in combat, of which fact she is well aware.

 

It's a good thing the Asha'man can heal stilling, cause Moiraine definitely is.

[havoc110]

RAW,

 

Another possibility is that there are to date undiscovered means of severing the Warder bond.

 

Moiraine had been thru the Tear doorway previously, right? With no severing of the bond to Lan? Not that that is a direct corrolation.

 

Didn't Moiraine not "engineer" a transfer of the bond somehow?

 

Damn these doorways, so many unknowns...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Didn't Moiraine not "engineer" a transfer of the bond somehow?

 

She altered the bond to pass when it was severed. Normal passing of the bond (as is probably going to happen as soon as Nynaeve gets her paws on Myrelle) does not cause the "internal death" effect. So it wasn;t an effect of passing the bond, or rather, the bond being passed is not an indication of Moiraine's current ability to channel.

 

Another possibility is that there are to date undiscovered means of severing the Warder bond.

 

Thats always possible, but we don't know about it before the Fires of Heaven, when all this evidence has to be present.

 

Moiraine had been thru the Tear doorway previously, right? With no severing of the bond to Lan? Not that that is a direct corrolation.

 

It IS a direct correllation, because the Aelfinn and Eelfinn exist in the same world. If entering Aelfinn-space didn't affect it, entering Eelfinn-space would not. Which is why I mentioned that in my post.

[havoc110]

My comment about it not necessary being a direct correlation was that I was unsure of how much evidence the text provides regarding how similar or dissimilar the doors effects are. I know they appear the same albeit with different markings.

 

Perhaps the bond is able to be maintained thru the doorway, similar to the Tear doorway, but once the second doorway was slagged, that may be why the Bond was broken.

 

So yes it is a correlation, but the destruction of the doorway is an event unique to Moiraine's case.

 

Stilling is of course, still a possibility.

[Jonn]

Another angle on the Moiraine question ... from something that I just thought of.

 

There is evidence that Moiraine has been stilled. You see, her bond with Lan was broken. Only two things forcibly break that bond. Death, and stilling.

 

If she's dead, the question of her killing Asmodean is moot. Since we pretty much know she's not dead ... she must have been stilled.

 

We know she didn't simply release Lan, because that doesn't produce the "living-death" effect (per Robert Jordan, http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 question 13) Also, it is not an effect of simply being in the Eelfinn world, since that world is part of the Pattern, and anyway, nothing bad happened to Lan when she went through the one in Tear.

 

So she must have been stilled. That frequently happens when women channel unadvisedly around ter'angreal. And making it melt into slag is certainly inadvisable.

 

This explains a couple of things. One, why the Eelfinn would be able to hold Moiraine prisoner. Two, Lanfear's death. Either she died in the Power backlash that stilled Moiraine, or the Eelfinn killed her, as they easily could is she was unable to channel.

 

It also makes Moiraine unable to kill Asmodean ... weak as he was shielded, he would still be able to take Moiraine stilled. As formidable as Moiraine is (and not all of that came from the Power) she is not a great PHYSICAL threat in combat, of which fact she is well aware.

 

It's a good thing the Asha'man can heal stilling, cause Moiraine definitely is.

 

It is a possibility that she was stilled. I'm not certain of that, nor can I be. She's almost definitely not dead. The simple answer is that we do not know her condition at this point other than that.

 

We also do not know that Lan's reaction was the living in death scenario. Even with the Warder bond, the man has a distinct fatalistic profile. His personal War with the shadow puts him in such a way that he's nearly suicidal even when bonded. It was his vow to stay with Moiraine and help her that kept him from marching off to the Blight and dying.

 

If Moiraine released the bond in some way, the only thing that would keep Lan from marching off to the Blight would be either Nynaeve or the passing of the bond to Myrelle.

 

Look at Lan's reaction after Moiraine disappears. Normally, a blinded rage overtakes a warder when the bond is broken by death. I'll make the assumption that severing would likely result in the same reaction. Lan simply switched his focus and set straight off to find whoever held his bond. No doubt he would be distraght over Moiraine's apparent death, but he didn't go berserk like most warders do.

 

Also, Moiraine would have to create the illusion that she was dead so that Rand would not try to go after her and waste time that way.

 

Under the circumstances, it's just as likely that Moriaine released Lan to Myrelle as it is that Moiraine was stilled.

 

We can't be sure until we receive more information.

 

Logically, we musn't assume that chanelling will give the advantage over the Eelfinn in any case. Why? Well , we have seen the in a way the Eelfinn are much more capable and powerful than the Aelfinn. They control their realm and possess abilities that are mysterious to say the least. To not be able to control a channeler would give too much bargaining power to such a person, and I really can't see that the Eelfinn would allow any sort of advantage to someone asking for their gifts. It's also not likely that they still every channeler who comes through the doorway, no matter if the doorway is itself destroyed.

 

If chanellers present them that much of a problem, then it would stand to say that a channeller could probably come and go into their realm as they pleased so long as they knew how to enter the world of the Finn.

 

I can't really see that working. My supposition is that the Eelfinn have tight control over their realm to the degree that they may be able to block off a channeller at will, or at least prevent them from leaving.

 

Cyndane's comment is pretty indicative of this control as she said she was held by the Eelfinn prior to her death. It just wouldn't make much sense if a channeler could back the Eelfinn off on their own turf. A channeler could simply take their wishes and then Travel out safely without giving anything in return. Again, evidence suggests that this isn't likely.

 

It's also evident to me that the doorways are more for a human's benefit in reaching the world of the Finn rather than the Finn being reliant on the doorways in any meaningful way.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Another overlooked point is that Lanfear only says she was held prior to her death (assuming the Finn's killed her). She is not the forgiving kind so had she been stilled, her little rant surely would have included that little tidbit of information.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It is a possibility that she was stilled. I'm not certain of that, nor can I be. She's almost definitely not dead. The simple answer is that we do not know her condition at this point other than that.

 

It is interesting that you admit that when dealing with a point that counters your theory, but make loads of bald assumptions when defending your theory. There is more evidence explicit in the books that she was stilled (no more Bond) than that she got her wishes (none).

 

We also do not know that Lan's reaction was the living in death scenario. Even with the Warder bond, the man has a distinct fatalistic profile. His personal War with the shadow puts him in such a way that he's nearly suicidal even when bonded. It was his vow to stay with Moiraine and help her that kept him from marching off to the Blight and dying.

 

If Moiraine released the bond in some way, the only thing that would keep Lan from marching off to the Blight would be either Nynaeve or the passing of the bond to Myrelle.

 

Look at Lan's reaction after Moiraine disappears. Normally, a blinded rage overtakes a warder when the bond is broken by death. I'll make the assumption that severing would likely result in the same reaction. Lan simply switched his focus and set straight off to find whoever held his bond. No doubt he would be distraght over Moiraine's apparent death, but he didn't go berserk like most warders do.

 

Myrelle, who has seen it twice before, certainly thinks it is. And Lan's reaction was not the normal one for a Warder precisely because Moiraine adjusted the bond to transfer when it was broken, and COMPELLED him to seek out Myrelle. He was unable to react as he certainly wished to. Reread Watchers, chapter 22 of The Great Hunt. I'll get into this more later, I have a birthday party to attend ... but man ... I honestly don't see any way around this one. Moiraine is stilled, which essentially rids her of the capability to kill Asmodean.