What was the point of Halima?

[avernite]

I think its too early to know whether or not halima put compulsion on egwene, it could be something more against rand than anything an with the very limited interaction between the two of them it could be possible yet

Exactly, she knew one of the only ways to save rand was not to swear on the oath rod, but she did it anyways. She went from supporting Rand to writing letters to turn all his holdings and followers against him drawing them to the FOM. There's more there, the "headaches" were a means of being able to speak with Eggy while her fingers undid the headaches. Any Forsaken that would NOT use compulsion on an A.S. in her/his control should have their henchman card torn up. We just have to RAFO.

 

In some ways, it would make perfect sense.

 

 

Consider: in ToM, Egwene acted like a bit of a doofus. Apparently didn't act against the shadow invasion, was all up in arms about the oaths and anti-Rand... exactly what Halima would want. Now consider TGS. Egwene is in a completely unpredicted situation, and shines.

 

Perhaps, then, Halima was compelling Egwene about things she predicted would be important. She just got caught off-balance by Egwene being in a completely different situation, Egwene showed what great leader she could be, but then ended up in a situation where all the compulsion was useful.

[jwood01]

I like the "compulsion bomb" idea, and I hope it happens.

 

However, I recall reading a very good defense of Halima's actions on another thread by Luckers.

[A. Pseudonym]

I always got the impression that she was sexually abusing Egwene in her dreams and then blocking the memories.... intending to remove that block later on and cause havoc.

But no, nothing seemed to come of it.

[Maleshub]

I always got the impression that she was sexually abusing Egwene in her dreams and then blocking the memories.... intending to remove that block later on and cause havoc.

But no, nothing seemed to come of it.

 

Wasn't Halima was also massaging Egwene's shoulders and muscles? If so, Balthamel's "desires" might have been remotely amused by having Egwene under his hands.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Theodril

[Siswai_Dar]

i always felt that Halima was a bomb that was about to explode. I think that everything she did was just to further divide the AS or was the starting of a plan that meant to do major damage later on. it actually made the rebelling AS saga much more interesting because I was always nervous that any second Halima is going to make her move and it felt like Egwene was in real danger. I think RJ just didn't have time to further develop this line of plot which is why it seemed Halima failed at her job.

 

anyway, i don't think that Egwene's anti- Rand position has anything to do with compulsion. I think she's just became too full of herself and she thinks she knows better than Rand

[nolirion]

She freed Mogy

[Agitel]

It's been awhile since my last read, and I may be wrong on the timeline, but is there any chance Halima "strengthened" Egwene as an Amyrlin and pushed her to actually declare war on Elaida? What could be better for the Shadow than trying to create a bloody civil war between Aes Sedai?

Edited July 6, 2012 by Agitel

[Saurabh]

8 years too late to clear up Halima’s rep, but she was more effective than many seem to give her credit

1.   She probably influenced Egwyne in speeding up the AS confrontation and brought them very close to open battle

2.   By killing Anaiya she ensured that Egwyne’s warning of Seanchan attack will go unheard

3.   Her usage of Saidin also probably seeded mistrust of Asha’man in the Rebel AS camp

Had the Egwyene not been captured by the Loyalists, which was due to a spur of the moment decision by Eggy, at least one of the following would have happened, any of them could have been a disaster for Light

1.  Rebels and Loyalists would have come to blows

2.  Seanchan attack on  WT would have captured several AS, destroying any possibility of alliance between Tuon & Rand

Edited June 30, 2020 by Saurabh

[Harldin]

2 hours ago, Saurabh said:

8 years too late to clear up Halima’s rep, but she was more effective than many seem to give her credit

1.   She probably influenced Egwyne in speeding up the AS confrontation and brought them very close to open battle

2.   By killing Anaiya she ensured that Egwyne’s warning of Seanchan attack will go unheard

3.   Her usage of Saidin also probably seeded mistrust of Asha’man in the Rebel AS camp

Had the Egwyene not been captured by the Loyalists, which was due to a spur of the moment decision by Eggy, at least one of the following would have happened, any of them could have been a disaster for Light

1.  Rebels and Loyalists would have come to blows

2.  Seanchan attack on  WT would have captured several AS, destroying any possibility of alliance between Tuon & Rand

2 dozen AS and about a dozen initiates were captured, including Elaida and 20/3 killed during the Seanchan attack. Rand didn’t do anything about it, not in the short term anyway. The Dragons peace may one day lead to their release but thats all he done. 
You could also say that if Egwene had not been captured then the rebels may have been able to take the WT by some other means and been better prepared for a Seanchan attack. 
I do agree that if the Egwene was not in the Tower during the Seanchan attack then the number of dead and captured AS would have been far greater.

Anyway you look at it the Seanchan attack was a short term disaster for the tower and led to the loss of more than 6 dozen AS and more than 20 initiates. The removal of an incompetent Amyrlin and her replacement by a far more competent one that is able to unite the tower does make up for it.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Harldin

[Saurabh]

It would have been a lot more worse if Egwene had not been there. The rebel camp took time to realize that TV was under attack and by the time they reacted many mite AS would have been captured/killed. So many more AS captured would have made peace between AS and Seanchan impossible even in TG. 
Also Mesaana and many more BA would have remained hidden giving one more Foresaken plus Dreadlords in the LB. 

Egwene’s impulsive decisions to contribute to  cuendillar blockage had far reaching effects ... but I guess that is the whole point of WoT series and RJ’s vision i.e. we never know how which thread/decision will fit into what outcome

[Sabio]

Halima main goals were to stop the WT from being united, prevent any alliance between the rebels and BT, and keep watch/manipulate Egwene so Egwene would depend on Halima.  Which is why all of Egwene's attendants that were know spies for different factions in the rebels "vanished".

[Leighla]

So I just started book 13. The forsaken and even the dark one seem to focus on such stupidly minimal stuff that I'm just like...wut? Why the hell would the dark one need people to engage petty convoluted things like all the squabbling? If his aim is to destroy the world, then just go around balefiring stuff up. Forsaken should have no qualms about using compulsion, so why don't they all do it? Also, it seems Shaidar Haran can appear anywhere and do anything. Why rely on the (apparently unreliable) forsaken to do stuff he can just do himself? There's really no reason anyone they want dead should still be alive.

[Thrasymachus]

The Dark One is not what it seems to be, and what it seeks is not the mere destruction of the Wheel.  The squabbling competitiveness of the Forsaken and Darkfriends generally follows from the true nature of the Dark One and how it is limited.  I'd say more, but am already skirting close to spoilers , so you'll have to RAFO.  Shaidar Haran is badly named, but in any event, his reach and power are not unlimited.  And Compulsion is a difficult weave that is especially limited.  Weaker versions that allow the victim to retain some autonomy and personality, such as Rhavin used against Morgase, can be fought off by the strong-willed.  Dreamers especially seem to have some additional protection against it.  Stronger forms, like Graendal prefers, are more easily discovered and leave the victim unable to do much more than what they have been specifically Compulsed to do; they become like zombies or robots.  Poor tools if one wants to corrupt a ruler or leader.

[mistborn82]

I think Halima, like many other things was a victim of books 7-11 since she is unmasked and dies in book 12. You have a near undetectable weapon but we get next to nothing and instead, pointless book sideplots to nowhere instead of cool Halima.

[Ascended]

Whether Halima was successful or not largely depends on the details of her mission. I mean, at that point in the story the rebels and loyalists are doing a fantastic job of ruining themselves and ignoring the much bigger problems in the world, so how much does the Dark One really need Halima to do? The rebels were already doing the Dark One's job for him. Halima might have been ordered to just keep an eye on things, throw a wrench into some plans where possible, and lay low waiting for the right moment to strike....a moment which never came, thanks to events nobody could have predicted. 

 

But we see contradictions in Egwene's actions that, as mentioned earlier in the thread, are likely the result of Halima manipulating Egwene with mild Compulsion. She also prevents Egwene's Dreaming, which if nothing else removes the chances of Egwene Dreaming something the Dark One doesn't want her to know about.

 

We have to consider the stuff that was done by the Aes Sedai Halima had under her thumb too. There's several times when the Black Ajah Halima is using try to pull the rebel Hall in a particular direction, or force them into a gridlock. Egwene was largely considered a puppet at that point in time, so she likely wasn't even Halima's main goal, and messing with her was just a bonus.

 

I agree she didn't really end up being all that useful and her entire subplot was a dead end, but I think it's unfair to say she didn't accomplish *anything* either. Her job seemed far more subtle than most of the Forsaken's. 

 

We might also consider just how dedicated Halima was to the cause. He died, was forced into a new body with a different gender, and then sent off to spy on a bunch of rebels, when the Forsaken already consider the Aes Sedai a bunch of idiot children playing at being adults. Halima, perhaps, had simply had enough and put in minimal effort. 

[AvidWOTfan]

The most important thing that aran'gar/Halima did was free Moghedien from the a'dam, which meant that the two accepted, Elayne and Nynaeve could no longer pump her for information on how great works in using the power in age of legends were accomplished.  This was a huge problem for the forces of the dark one, because all of a sudden, long lost, war critical talents were being "Re-discovered" by the forces of the white tower. 

 

This was more important to the dark forces, than preserving the Enigma code machine secrets to the German U-boat fleet!