Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[Mr Ares]

Rand couldn't weave a Gateway when he went to Caemlyn. He learnt. The girls can learn as well. Rahvin dropped a few lightning bolts on them, killed Mat, Asmo and Avi and then Rand put up a shield before he Travelled into the throneroom. Which part of that is beyond the girls? You attempt to present a difficult fight as an impossible one. Based on nothing. Also, it's hard to say Rahvin was "comofrtably controlling tha battle" given how little time there was between arrival and skipping straight into the throneroom. It's also hard to argue that others really played a huge part in holding up Rahvin's army - it was a running battle throughout the palace (and later T'a'r) between two channelers. No-one was likely to intervene, even if Rand didn't have help Rahvin's army would have struggled to come and support him, andonce they got to T'a'r any armies the other had was rendered moot. What swung the battle was Nynaeve hitting Rahvin from behind. That can happen just as easily with the three girls fighting Rahvin. He has some advantages, but he had those over Rand as well. He still lost. Rand won, the girls could have won as well.

 

Rahvin had the advantage of skill, experience, knowledge and quite possibly strength as well when he fought Rand. Rand won. This fight is not unwinnable. He learnt how to Travel in mid-battle. He figured out how to cut Lanfear's weaves with little information. The girls can learn to combat his weaves. It might be that only by taking him completely by surprise could they win. But that's what Rand needed to do to win. He did it. They can do it too.

 

You say Rand figured out or learned how to travel and cut Lanfear's weaves. But that's not true, he didn't have any thought process on how he needed to do it. He went from not knowing to knowing how to do it in an instant, simply because the knowledge came straight from LTT. In fact in a lot of Rand's battles, he mentions doing things instinctively as if he'd known how to do them all along. The girls can't do that. They won't just suddenly know how to do something. Aviendha once travelled by instinct, but she couldn't even remenber how she did it. It was purely out of panic that she managed to do it. LTT is probably what allows Rand to even survive as long as he does against the Forsaken. Even if he is incredibly talented (and being LTT reborn, he probably is), he is greatly lacking in training. He often fights on instinct, which works only because his instinct is partly LTT.

I fail to see why there is a difference. You've given an example of one of the girls doing something on instinct (Traveling). True, Avi forgot it afterwards, but then Rand didn't remember how to make the seeker lightning he used in the Stone in book 4. We also have the example of one of the girls figuring out how to tie off weaves (book 3, I believe), and then the others learning from that, then the first one learning from the others - so unlike with Rand alone there is less chance of the group of them forgetting because it only requires one of them to see what happened for them to be able to share it with the others. In other words, Rand has the greater limitation in terms of just figuring stuff out.

 

Rand took Rahvin by surprise, but Rahvin had time enough to recover. Travelling right into the throne room like Rand did, would lead to instant death for the girls. They might be able to defend against the lighting that he throws from far away (Aviendha's wasn't), but if he strikes at them directly then they have no chance of surviving, simply because they can not defend against his weaves (which is the advantage that Rahvin did not have over Rand), and they won't miraculously learn how in an instant. They wouldn't just need to take him by surprise, they would have to kill him before he has the chance to react. And I don't see how they can manage to get within striking distance of Rahvin, without him knowing.

The girls can defend against his weaves, by using shields. What they can't do is cut his weaves, because they don't know where his are (nor does he knows where theirs are - the difference is that he will have a better knowledge of where they are likely to be, so can make a more informed guess when he cuts). If they see Rahvin can cut their weaves, I hardly think it's beyond them to try and cut through his.

 

This would be the very first time the girls took on a male channeller head on. If they don't know how to fight one, then they won't be able to defeat him, short of killing him by suprise before he has time to react.

The first time Rand took on a male channeler head on, he didn't have the advantage of strength, nor surprise, knowledge of weaves, experience of fighting with the power, nor LTT's memories. He still won. Are you really suggesting that the girls, collectively, who are smart, strong, resourceful, and possessed of a plot shield, with the advantage of numbers, who are more experienced channelers than Rand was, with at least some experience of fighting the Chosen would be incapable of doing the same against someone weaker than Aginor or Ishamael? The deck is not stacked against them to nearly the same extent as it was in Rand's first fights, back in EotW. There is no reason why they should be regarded as utterly incapable of winning this fight.

 

You have to identify and find the leaders before you can kill them. Easy if it's Lord Smith, who is operating the rebellion from his home of Smithington Manor. Less easy if it's a peasant from a village who has gone into hiding and the only people who know who the leader is aren't inclined to give his name and location to complete strangers. And one big battle is unimportant. Big battles are what any sensible Andoran rebellion wants to avoid, until they have the upper hand. Hit and run strikes. Assassinations on Rand loyalists (including Asha'man). That sort of thing.

 

But would the commoners rebel, without the nobles to provide leadership? And even if they do, they won't be very organised. With the draught going on in LoC, they might decide that they don't give a damn who sits on the throne, at least for the time being.

I don't see why the commoners should be incapable of organising a rebellion. They might decide they don't care for the time being, of course. But when the drought ends, and Rand is still in power, they might decide to do something.

 

It's also not unprecedented for people to refuse such orders to shoot. What if some Asha'man decide to join the rebellion?

 

It's hard to judge how attached the Ashaman are to the countries they come from. Personally, I feel that the hellish training they recieve must pretty much beat that out of them. Being part of a group that is hated by everyone has to help as well. That said if there really was a risk of Ashaman refusing to follow orders, then I imagine they wouldn't be put on the job to begin with. And if any actually rebel, well, others have before as well. That's what the tree is for.

I rather doubt Rand would resort to mass executions in the first place.

The heads on the tree are from runaways, for the most part. A group of Asha'man going rogue and trying to stop you from massacring their countrymen is a different beast to one or two slipping away in the night because they can't hack it. Not putting those who are likely to rebel on rebel-crushing duties doesn't help when all your men are still based in the same place - if word gets back about what's going on, expect at least some dissent. And while mass executions are not Rand's style, generally, it does rather limit what the Asha'man can do to help crush a rebellion if you won't turn them loose on the rebels. Some information gathering, perhaps?

 

You didn't really address my point. What does the countryside have to do with it when you're picking off soldiers in the towns and cities? How can you run the foe down when the handful of you there are just got knifed? And when they disappear into the crowds? How are the Aiel to hide when they're a head taller than everyone else? They don't all need to rise. They just need to ignore Rand and he has no effective control.

 

I think it sort of depends on what Rand's objective is in seizing the throne for himself (or for another andoran noble). If he's trying to rule the nation, then yes he's going to have a hard time imposing himself on everyone. But if he's just trying to make sure there isn't a civil war between the nobles when Tarmon Gaidon comes along, then he doens't need to control the whole country, every little town and village out there. What does he care what everyone thinks of him? If the people ignore him, what does he care as long as they don't fight each other, or kill his men? As long as he controls Caemlyn, then there is no problem. Actually all he needs to control is the palace, since that's where the throne is. If the country is at peace, then he doesn't need to send out his soldiers.

Well, if come TG he has no effective control of the country, then there is precious little point in him being there. He doesn't have the country, so he cannot use those people as soldiers at TG.

 

 

You have to identify and find the leaders before you can kill them. Easy if it's Lord Smith, who is operating the rebellion from his home of Smithington Manor. Less easy if it's a peasant from a village who has gone into hiding and the only people who know who the leader is aren't inclined to give his name and location to complete strangers. And one big battle is unimportant. Big battles are what any sensible Andoran rebellion wants to avoid, until they have the upper hand. Hit and run strikes. Assassinations on Rand loyalists (including Asha'man). That sort of thing.

 

How difficult is to extract information from people when you have the OP at your disposal?

 

Hit and run strikes cannot be conducted on units who are more mobile than you..with travelling Rand's units will always be more mobile than anything any rebel can muster up.

Travelling into a crowd of people is a dangerous business. Attack patrols in the city, then fade back into the crowd. The ability to Travel helps little (and the Aiel would be rather more noticeable than most). Having the OP at your disposal is not an automatic guarantee of victory. Do the Asha'man know how to use Compulsion (outside of Warder bonds)? The mobility advantage Traveling gives can be be neutered if they do not know where to Travel to. And so one, and so forth. Yes, in a war I would appreciate the advantages Channelers could give me, but in the right circumstances those advantages can be minimised. You cannot simply state "Rand has channelers so he wins". That's just foolish. It helps. It means facing him across a field of battle becomes suicide. But you can't have channelers everywhere. You can't protect everyone of importance for every minute of every day. Getting around quickly doesn't help if the enemy is gone before you know they were there. How does channeling stop servants in the palace passing information to rebels? How does it stop your patrols getting cut down in ones or twos? How does it stop nobles refusing to pay taxes (or just constantly delaying, giving too little, etc.)?

 

 

Master Ablar explained it much better than I could have.

 

Mr Ares, I find it pretty confusing that you seem to equate the Supergirls' battle channeling skills with Rand's. I find it also a little bit suspect, because for me the difference is huge and obvious, for everyone to see- and certainly for such a careful reader as you are. Are you playing devil's advocate just for the fun of it?

The problem is not that there is no difference in their battle skills, it is that the difference is not insurmountable and that Rand has won battles against worse odds. I'm not saying this would be a walk in the park, I'm saying that it is not impossible, nor even so hard as some like to make out. Rand fought Ishy in T'a'r with no experience of the Dream World. he won. Egwene has experience of T'a'r, and back up, yet would not be able to win? Really? Rand fought Ishamael with no knowledge of the Power back in EotW, and he won. Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne and maybe even Aviendha as well, all channelers with knowledge of the OP, cannot fight Rahvin? Looked at objectively, there is no real reason why Rand should have won all his fights but the girls should be incapable of doing the same.

 

For me it is obvious and hardly worth any meaningful discussion that Rand is a much more skilled/efficient (taking into account ta'veren effects which aren't skills as such) battle channeler than any of the Supergirls. I'm not saying that any of the things he did was were beyond the Supergirls's abilities, but taken as a whole, in the time the battle took place and against Rahvin - the Supergirls' would have no chance. Four main factors why:

1. Rand had at the time much more battle experience (and also specifically against the Forsaken) than any of the girls.

2. LTT memories - additional huge pool of experiences, clicking in when needed.

3. Ta'veren.

4. Rand was much stronger in the Power.

Take away 1,2 and 4. Take away all his knowledge of the Power. Take away any assistance from other channelers. Then you have his first fight against Ishy. Well, all his fights against ishy, really - heonly had a strength advantage in the last fight.

 

The girls have none of these advantages. They also would have to deal with specific disadvantages Rand didn't:

1. Lack of experience/knowledge how to fight a male channeler and specifically, how to counter his weaves.

2. Inablity to sense Rahvin and therefore to take the fight to his hiding hole.

3. Inability to weave a gateway.

4. Lack of sufficient supporting force, forcing them to deal with other dangers beside Rahvin.

All of these were disadvantages he had in his first fight with Ishy as well. He didn't know how to Travel until he arrived in Caemlyn. So Rand can overcome the same disadvantages as the women agaist the greatest of the Chosen, but they are incapable of doing the same against Rahvin? Do you really think you're being objective in your judgement?

[Guest PiotrekS]

Rand couldn't weave a Gateway when he went to Caemlyn. He learnt. The girls can learn as well. Rahvin dropped a few lightning bolts on them, killed Mat, Asmo and Avi and then Rand put up a shield before he Travelled into the throneroom. Which part of that is beyond the girls? You attempt to present a difficult fight as an impossible one. Based on nothing. Also, it's hard to say Rahvin was "comofrtably controlling tha battle" given how little time there was between arrival and skipping straight into the throneroom. It's also hard to argue that others really played a huge part in holding up Rahvin's army - it was a running battle throughout the palace (and later T'a'r) between two channelers. No-one was likely to intervene, even if Rand didn't have help Rahvin's army would have struggled to come and support him, andonce they got to T'a'r any armies the other had was rendered moot. What swung the battle was Nynaeve hitting Rahvin from behind. That can happen just as easily with the three girls fighting Rahvin. He has some advantages, but he had those over Rand as well. He still lost. Rand won, the girls could have won as well.

 

Rahvin had the advantage of skill, experience, knowledge and quite possibly strength as well when he fought Rand. Rand won. This fight is not unwinnable. He learnt how to Travel in mid-battle. He figured out how to cut Lanfear's weaves with little information. The girls can learn to combat his weaves. It might be that only by taking him completely by surprise could they win. But that's what Rand needed to do to win. He did it. They can do it too.

 

You say Rand figured out or learned how to travel and cut Lanfear's weaves. But that's not true, he didn't have any thought process on how he needed to do it. He went from not knowing to knowing how to do it in an instant, simply because the knowledge came straight from LTT. In fact in a lot of Rand's battles, he mentions doing things instinctively as if he'd known how to do them all along. The girls can't do that. They won't just suddenly know how to do something. Aviendha once travelled by instinct, but she couldn't even remenber how she did it. It was purely out of panic that she managed to do it. LTT is probably what allows Rand to even survive as long as he does against the Forsaken. Even if he is incredibly talented (and being LTT reborn, he probably is), he is greatly lacking in training. He often fights on instinct, which works only because his instinct is partly LTT.

I fail to see why there is a difference. You've given an example of one of the girls doing something on instinct (Traveling). True, Avi forgot it afterwards, but then Rand didn't remember how to make the seeker lightning he used in the Stone in book 4. We also have the example of one of the girls figuring out how to tie off weaves (book 3, I believe), and then the others learning from that, then the first one learning from the others - so unlike with Rand alone there is less chance of the group of them forgetting because it only requires one of them to see what happened for them to be able to share it with the others. In other words, Rand has the greater limitation in terms of just figuring stuff out.

 

Rand took Rahvin by surprise, but Rahvin had time enough to recover. Travelling right into the throne room like Rand did, would lead to instant death for the girls. They might be able to defend against the lighting that he throws from far away (Aviendha's wasn't), but if he strikes at them directly then they have no chance of surviving, simply because they can not defend against his weaves (which is the advantage that Rahvin did not have over Rand), and they won't miraculously learn how in an instant. They wouldn't just need to take him by surprise, they would have to kill him before he has the chance to react. And I don't see how they can manage to get within striking distance of Rahvin, without him knowing.

The girls can defend against his weaves, by using shields. What they can't do is cut his weaves, because they don't know where his are (nor does he knows where theirs are - the difference is that he will have a better knowledge of where they are likely to be, so can make a more informed guess when he cuts). If they see Rahvin can cut their weaves, I hardly think it's beyond them to try and cut through his.

 

This would be the very first time the girls took on a male channeller head on. If they don't know how to fight one, then they won't be able to defeat him, short of killing him by suprise before he has time to react.

The first time Rand took on a male channeler head on, he didn't have the advantage of strength, nor surprise, knowledge of weaves, experience of fighting with the power, nor LTT's memories. He still won. Are you really suggesting that the girls, collectively, who are smart, strong, resourceful, and possessed of a plot shield, with the advantage of numbers, who are more experienced channelers than Rand was, with at least some experience of fighting the Chosen would be incapable of doing the same against someone weaker than Aginor or Ishamael? The deck is not stacked against them to nearly the same extent as it was in Rand's first fights, back in EotW. There is no reason why they should be regarded as utterly incapable of winning this fight.

 

You have to identify and find the leaders before you can kill them. Easy if it's Lord Smith, who is operating the rebellion from his home of Smithington Manor. Less easy if it's a peasant from a village who has gone into hiding and the only people who know who the leader is aren't inclined to give his name and location to complete strangers. And one big battle is unimportant. Big battles are what any sensible Andoran rebellion wants to avoid, until they have the upper hand. Hit and run strikes. Assassinations on Rand loyalists (including Asha'man). That sort of thing.

 

But would the commoners rebel, without the nobles to provide leadership? And even if they do, they won't be very organised. With the draught going on in LoC, they might decide that they don't give a damn who sits on the throne, at least for the time being.

I don't see why the commoners should be incapable of organising a rebellion. They might decide they don't care for the time being, of course. But when the drought ends, and Rand is still in power, they might decide to do something.

 

It's also not unprecedented for people to refuse such orders to shoot. What if some Asha'man decide to join the rebellion?

 

It's hard to judge how attached the Ashaman are to the countries they come from. Personally, I feel that the hellish training they recieve must pretty much beat that out of them. Being part of a group that is hated by everyone has to help as well. That said if there really was a risk of Ashaman refusing to follow orders, then I imagine they wouldn't be put on the job to begin with. And if any actually rebel, well, others have before as well. That's what the tree is for.

I rather doubt Rand would resort to mass executions in the first place.

The heads on the tree are from runaways, for the most part. A group of Asha'man going rogue and trying to stop you from massacring their countrymen is a different beast to one or two slipping away in the night because they can't hack it. Not putting those who are likely to rebel on rebel-crushing duties doesn't help when all your men are still based in the same place - if word gets back about what's going on, expect at least some dissent. And while mass executions are not Rand's style, generally, it does rather limit what the Asha'man can do to help crush a rebellion if you won't turn them loose on the rebels. Some information gathering, perhaps?

 

You didn't really address my point. What does the countryside have to do with it when you're picking off soldiers in the towns and cities? How can you run the foe down when the handful of you there are just got knifed? And when they disappear into the crowds? How are the Aiel to hide when they're a head taller than everyone else? They don't all need to rise. They just need to ignore Rand and he has no effective control.

 

I think it sort of depends on what Rand's objective is in seizing the throne for himself (or for another andoran noble). If he's trying to rule the nation, then yes he's going to have a hard time imposing himself on everyone. But if he's just trying to make sure there isn't a civil war between the nobles when Tarmon Gaidon comes along, then he doens't need to control the whole country, every little town and village out there. What does he care what everyone thinks of him? If the people ignore him, what does he care as long as they don't fight each other, or kill his men? As long as he controls Caemlyn, then there is no problem. Actually all he needs to control is the palace, since that's where the throne is. If the country is at peace, then he doesn't need to send out his soldiers.

Well, if come TG he has no effective control of the country, then there is precious little point in him being there. He doesn't have the country, so he cannot use those people as soldiers at TG.

 

 

You have to identify and find the leaders before you can kill them. Easy if it's Lord Smith, who is operating the rebellion from his home of Smithington Manor. Less easy if it's a peasant from a village who has gone into hiding and the only people who know who the leader is aren't inclined to give his name and location to complete strangers. And one big battle is unimportant. Big battles are what any sensible Andoran rebellion wants to avoid, until they have the upper hand. Hit and run strikes. Assassinations on Rand loyalists (including Asha'man). That sort of thing.

 

How difficult is to extract information from people when you have the OP at your disposal?

 

Hit and run strikes cannot be conducted on units who are more mobile than you..with travelling Rand's units will always be more mobile than anything any rebel can muster up.

Travelling into a crowd of people is a dangerous business. Attack patrols in the city, then fade back into the crowd. The ability to Travel helps little (and the Aiel would be rather more noticeable than most). Having the OP at your disposal is not an automatic guarantee of victory. Do the Asha'man know how to use Compulsion (outside of Warder bonds)? The mobility advantage Traveling gives can be be neutered if they do not know where to Travel to. And so one, and so forth. Yes, in a war I would appreciate the advantages Channelers could give me, but in the right circumstances those advantages can be minimised. You cannot simply state "Rand has channelers so he wins". That's just foolish. It helps. It means facing him across a field of battle becomes suicide. But you can't have channelers everywhere. You can't protect everyone of importance for every minute of every day. Getting around quickly doesn't help if the enemy is gone before you know they were there. How does channeling stop servants in the palace passing information to rebels? How does it stop your patrols getting cut down in ones or twos? How does it stop nobles refusing to pay taxes (or just constantly delaying, giving too little, etc.)?

 

 

Master Ablar explained it much better than I could have.

 

Mr Ares, I find it pretty confusing that you seem to equate the Supergirls' battle channeling skills with Rand's. I find it also a little bit suspect, because for me the difference is huge and obvious, for everyone to see- and certainly for such a careful reader as you are. Are you playing devil's advocate just for the fun of it?

The problem is not that there is no difference in their battle skills, it is that the difference is not insurmountable and that Rand has won battles against worse odds. I'm not saying this would be a walk in the park, I'm saying that it is not impossible, nor even so hard as some like to make out. Rand fought Ishy in T'a'r with no experience of the Dream World. he won. Egwene has experience of T'a'r, and back up, yet would not be able to win? Really? Rand fought Ishamael with no knowledge of the Power back in EotW, and he won. Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne and maybe even Aviendha as well, all channelers with knowledge of the OP, cannot fight Rahvin? Looked at objectively, there is no real reason why Rand should have won all his fights but the girls should be incapable of doing the same.

 

For me it is obvious and hardly worth any meaningful discussion that Rand is a much more skilled/efficient (taking into account ta'veren effects which aren't skills as such) battle channeler than any of the Supergirls. I'm not saying that any of the things he did was were beyond the Supergirls's abilities, but taken as a whole, in the time the battle took place and against Rahvin - the Supergirls' would have no chance. Four main factors why:

1. Rand had at the time much more battle experience (and also specifically against the Forsaken) than any of the girls.

2. LTT memories - additional huge pool of experiences, clicking in when needed.

3. Ta'veren.

4. Rand was much stronger in the Power.

Take away 1,2 and 4. Take away all his knowledge of the Power. Take away any assistance from other channelers. Then you have his first fight against Ishy. Well, all his fights against ishy, really - heonly had a strength advantage in the last fight.

 

The girls have none of these advantages. They also would have to deal with specific disadvantages Rand didn't:

1. Lack of experience/knowledge how to fight a male channeler and specifically, how to counter his weaves.

2. Inablity to sense Rahvin and therefore to take the fight to his hiding hole.

3. Inability to weave a gateway.

4. Lack of sufficient supporting force, forcing them to deal with other dangers beside Rahvin.

All of these were disadvantages he had in his first fight with Ishy as well. He didn't know how to Travel until he arrived in Caemlyn. So Rand can overcome the same disadvantages as the women agaist the greatest of the Chosen, but they are incapable of doing the same against Rahvin? Do you really think you're being objective in your judgement?

 

Your whole point rests on the first fight between Rand and Ishy, a fight which Rand logically should not have won. In all his encounters against Ishy his destiny/ta'veren/plot armour protection was especially significant and was a sole explanation for his victory. Of course, the Supergirls can also benefit from the plot armour -indeed they often have - and the author could write any outcome to the fight he liked. I just treat Rand's fights with Ishamael as pretty exceptional, where rational rules did not really apply. That's why they are hardly a good point of comparison. It was very unlikely Rand could have won against Ishy and it was similarly unlikely the Supergirls could have defeated Rahvin then and there.

 

Lastly, I'm not saying the Supergirls could not have defeated Rahvin under any circumstances whatsoever. I only think that in that particular point of the story, Rand was in a much, much better position to do it and that similar attempt by the Supergirils at the moment could have resulted in a failure or at least very heavy casualties. That's why the first emotion Elayne should have felt should have been gratitude imho and she shows any sign therof only in ToM.

 

As to your last point, yes, I think Rand can overcome obstacles no other character can. You know, it wasn't me who decided to write a story about a messiah, where destiny and prophecy play such a huge role. That's the way the story is written, he is special and therefore capable of special feats.

[ElusiveAthena]

By the way, I'm re-reading Lord of Chaos, and Ishamael is definitely Mazrim Taim.

[Suttree]

By the way, I'm re-reading Lord of Chaos, and Ishamael is definitely Mazrim Taim.

 

If that is the case I wonder why Ishamael instead of just travelling, would have allowed "savages" to harry him to the point of near death across the entire continent before arriving in Andor to meet Rand(risking everything for an amnesty he doesn't need). To as RJ put it "be rode hard and put away wet".

 

That is something I have never seen the few Moridin/Taim adherents out there be able to answer.

[Barid Bel Medar]

By the way, I'm re-reading Lord of Chaos, and Ishamael is definitely Mazrim Taim.

 

Ohhhhh, another success for Drekka Mort! You should talk to him about it, he is the main man for the Mazradin (as he calls it) crowd. Why, you could call him the Nae'Blis even.

[ElusiveAthena]

Heh, I think I worked it out on my own, but I'd be interested in talking to him...

[Barid Bel Medar]

Heh, I think I worked it out on my own, but I'd be interested in talking to him...

 

Well not sure where he is hiding at the moment, I suppose just send him a message, if its too random, you can tell him I suggested it or whatever. Here is a link to the great Mazridin debate, or at least the most in depth/current (post ToM).

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/55991-is-taim-moridin/page__hl__+taim+moridin%3F

 

Its a long one, but a lot of argument and nonsense in there as well, I am sure you can single out the main points on both sides.

[Mr Ares]

Your whole point rests on the first fight between Rand and Ishy, a fight which Rand logically should not have won. In all his encounters against Ishy his destiny/ta'veren/plot armour protection was especially significant and was a sole explanation for his victory. Of course, the Supergirls can also benefit from the plot armour -indeed they often have - and the author could write any outcome to the fight he liked. I just treat Rand's fights with Ishamael as pretty exceptional, where rational rules did not really apply. That's why they are hardly a good point of comparison. It was very unlikely Rand could have won against Ishy and it was similarly unlikely the Supergirls could have defeated Rahvin then and there.

 

Lastly, I'm not saying the Supergirls could not have defeated Rahvin under any circumstances whatsoever. I only think that in that particular point of the story, Rand was in a much, much better position to do it and that similar attempt by the Supergirls at the moment could have resulted in a failure or at least very heavy casualties. That's why the first emotion Elayne should have felt should have been gratitude imho and she shows any sign therof only in ToM.

Logically, Rand should not have won. He did anyway. In fact, the same is true of his fights against Aginor, all three against Ishy, Be'lal, Lanfear and Rahvin. The Supergirls would be at far less of a disadvantage than Rand was in many of his fights - that's the point I'm making. They have a lot more going for them than he did. The Supergirls defeating Rahvin was far, far less unlikely than some of Rand's fights. Yes, they could have failed. They could have taken heavy casualties. The same is true of Rand - he could have lost, he could have had all the people with him die. In fact, without Nynaeve's help that's exactly what would have happened. I don't think it really stretches suspension of disbelief beyond what the series normally demands to think that they could have done the job with no major losses. A measure of gratitude was deserved, no doubt - for Rand doing her a favour, if nothing else - but it was not something she could not have done herself.

 

As to your last point, yes, I think Rand can overcome obstacles no other character can. You know, it wasn't me who decided to write a story about a messiah, where destiny and prophecy play such a huge role. That's the way the story is written, he is special and therefore capable of special feats.

While he is capable of special feats, it should be noted that those relate to him being one with the land. Unless he plans to attack Rahvin with several tons of unexpectedly ripened apples I don't think it really applies. Other than that, he's a ta'veren and a channeler, but with no abilities beyond those which could be found in any ta'veren and channeler. In other words, while Rand can overcome some obstacles that no-one else could (such as the starvation in AD) Rahvin (and the Chosen in general) is not one of those obstacles.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Your whole point rests on the first fight between Rand and Ishy, a fight which Rand logically should not have won. In all his encounters against Ishy his destiny/ta'veren/plot armour protection was especially significant and was a sole explanation for his victory. Of course, the Supergirls can also benefit from the plot armour -indeed they often have - and the author could write any outcome to the fight he liked. I just treat Rand's fights with Ishamael as pretty exceptional, where rational rules did not really apply. That's why they are hardly a good point of comparison. It was very unlikely Rand could have won against Ishy and it was similarly unlikely the Supergirls could have defeated Rahvin then and there.

 

Lastly, I'm not saying the Supergirls could not have defeated Rahvin under any circumstances whatsoever. I only think that in that particular point of the story, Rand was in a much, much better position to do it and that similar attempt by the Supergirls at the moment could have resulted in a failure or at least very heavy casualties. That's why the first emotion Elayne should have felt should have been gratitude imho and she shows any sign therof only in ToM.

Logically, Rand should not have won. He did anyway. In fact, the same is true of his fights against Aginor, all three against Ishy, Be'lal, Lanfear and Rahvin. The Supergirls would be at far less of a disadvantage than Rand was in many of his fights - that's the point I'm making. They have a lot more going for them than he did. The Supergirls defeating Rahvin was far, far less unlikely than some of Rand's fights. Yes, they could have failed. They could have taken heavy casualties. The same is true of Rand - he could have lost, he could have had all the people with him die. In fact, without Nynaeve's help that's exactly what would have happened. I don't think it really stretches suspension of disbelief beyond what the series normally demands to think that they could have done the job with no major losses. A measure of gratitude was deserved, no doubt - for Rand doing her a favour, if nothing else - but it was not something she could not have done herself.

 

I see your points, but still don't think she could. She had trouble defeating Arymilla after all. I think Rand's fights are a kind of special case.

 

As to your last point, yes, I think Rand can overcome obstacles no other character can. You know, it wasn't me who decided to write a story about a messiah, where destiny and prophecy play such a huge role. That's the way the story is written, he is special and therefore capable of special feats.

While he is capable of special feats, it should be noted that those relate to him being one with the land. Unless he plans to attack Rahvin with several tons of unexpectedly ripened apples I don't think it really applies. Other than that, he's a ta'veren and a channeler, but with no abilities beyond those which could be found in any ta'veren and channeler. In other words, while Rand can overcome some obstacles that no-one else could (such as the starvation in AD) Rahvin (and the Chosen in general) is not one of those obstacles.

 

I think you're understanding it too narrowly.For example, his fight with Ishamael in the sky over Falme had nothing to do with Fisher King, but a lot to do with his metaphysical status as Light's champion.

 

What's more, being ta'veren is not a common thing. The fact that both Mat and Perrin shared this feature with him was an anomaly in itself. Three ta'veren together are quite exceptional, even one ta'veren is exceptional . Moreover, Rand is still the strongest of the three. As you've noted yourself, he needed a lot of his luck to survive the fights. The story has no mechanics to explain similar fighting luck for e.g. Elayne, though I admit it hasn't stopped RJ/BS from writing several scenes as though the Supergirls were in fact ta'veren.

[David Selig]

One really easy way for the Supergirls to kill Rahvin - disguise themselves as servants, get near him and use the surprise advantage to balefire him. Semirhage captured Rand this way.

 

BTW, Lanfear opened a Gateway right in the Royal Palace while Rahvin was there and he didn't sense her until she announced herself, so he wasn't prepared with traps and wards for that, at least at this point.

[Suttree]

I see your points, but still don't think she could. She had trouble defeating Arymilla after all.

 

Which of course has zero bearing on the debate at hand.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I see your points, but still don't think she could. She had trouble defeating Arymilla after all.

 

Which of course has zero bearing on the debate at hand.

 

It is what the text shows us of Elayne's military and fighting skills. Of course, we could invent millions of ways for her to show how deadly she could be, but what we see in the text is simply weak.

[Suttree]

I see your points, but still don't think she could. She had trouble defeating Arymilla after all.

 

Which of course has zero bearing on the debate at hand.

 

It is what the text shows us of Elayne's military and fighting skills. Of course, we could invent millions of ways for her to show how deadly she could be, but what we see in the text is simply weak.

 

and my point was having zero use of OP and being largely overmatched with paid mercenaries in defending a city is such a different situation than our hypothetical verse Rahvin as to have zero bearing on the debate at hand.

 

As a side not the one time the two actually did battle outside of a siege situation Arymilla got spanked. There are direct quotes in text that Elayne's military knowledge is quite considerable having learned from Gareth Byrne and Andoran Queens are expected to work with their military in times of war.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I see your points, but still don't think she could. She had trouble defeating Arymilla after all.

 

Which of course has zero bearing on the debate at hand.

 

It is what the text shows us of Elayne's military and fighting skills. Of course, we could invent millions of ways for her to show how deadly she could be, but what we see in the text is simply weak.

 

and my point was having zero use of OP and being largely overmatched with paid mercenaries in defending a city is such a different situation than our hypothetical verse Rahvin as to have zero bearing on the debate at hand.

 

As a side not the one time the two actually did battle outside of a siege situation Arymilla got spanked. There are direct quotes in text that Elayne's military knowledge is quite considerable having learned from Gareth Byrne and Andoran Queens are expected to work with their military in times of war.

 

Eh, yeah, you have your points, but I just don't see her defeating Rahvin. I just don't. It doesn't mean Elayne is incompetent - she is in fact one of my fauvorite characters - just I think that Rahvin was pretty good for a member of such a pathetic group as the Forsaken were shown to be.

 

I think we've beaten this horse long enough, so well, merry Christmas

[Suttree]

I think we've beaten this horse long enough, so well, merry Christmas

 

and to you PiotrekS! Happy Holidays.

[Elan Tedronai]

considering the total incompetence of the forsaken, i wouldnt be suprised if any of them wouldn't be able to stand up face to face with any one of the super girls.

 

The forsaken this age are just pale imitations of the ones of before. How could a bumbling idiotic half wit shepherder stand up to most powerful of all forsaken three times in such a short space of time? And beat him to boot?

[MasterAblar]

Logically, Rand should not have won. He did anyway. In fact, the same is true of his fights against Aginor, all three against Ishy, Be'lal, Lanfear and Rahvin. The Supergirls would be at far less of a disadvantage than Rand was in many of his fights - that's the point I'm making. They have a lot more going for them than he did. The Supergirls defeating Rahvin was far, far less unlikely than some of Rand's fights. Yes, they could have failed. They could have taken heavy casualties. The same is true of Rand - he could have lost, he could have had all the people with him die. In fact, without Nynaeve's help that's exactly what would have happened. I don't think it really stretches suspension of disbelief beyond what the series normally demands to think that they could have done the job with no major losses. A measure of gratitude was deserved, no doubt - for Rand doing her a favour, if nothing else - but it was not something she could not have done herself.

 

If the story wanted them to beat him, a way would probably be found. After all, like you said Rand should have lost the fights in the early books. He got lucky, there was always a detail that allowed him to win (Ishamael not wanting to kill him, Ishamael deciding to fight with a stick, Ishamael fighting him when he has Callandor, Moiraine, and again Moiraine). However, not only does he have taveren to justify that luck, or else the Forsaken's arrogance, he also didn't initiate those battles. The first time he attacks a Forsaken, instead of the other way around, is when he goes after Rahvin. That battle was taken into TAR where he obviously was at a disadvantage. If they had stayed in the real world perhaps he would have won on his own. Regardless the point is that he went into the battle knowing that he was capable of winning through his own abilities without depending on some miracle to bail him out. Would the supergirls initiate such a fight? The story could find a way to make them win against Rahvin, but could it find a way to make them think that they can beat him in the first place? The only way a fight between them could happen, is if they go after him. Would they really plan to go into a fight where they would need a stroke of luck to win in the first place?

 

I fail to see why there is a difference. You've given an example of one of the girls doing something on instinct (Traveling). True, Avi forgot it afterwards, but then Rand didn't remember how to make the seeker lightning he used in the Stone in book 4. We also have the example of one of the girls figuring out how to tie off weaves (book 3, I believe), and then the others learning from that, then the first one learning from the others - so unlike with Rand alone there is less chance of the group of them forgetting because it only requires one of them to see what happened for them to be able to share it with the others. In other words, Rand has the greater limitation in terms of just figuring stuff out.

 

There's relatively little the girls have done by instinct. Egwene tying off her weave, Aviendha travelling, Nyneave balefiring. In comparison, everything Rand did prior to learning from Asmodean, as well as many things after came directly from LTT. And apart from the seeker lighting, he's remembered everything. Incidentally, both the seeker lighting and Aviendha's travelling are rather similar. In both cases the channeller is not paying attention to what they're doing, and they're desperate to accomplish whatever it is will be accomplished through their channelling. In Rand's case, killing all the shadowspawn, in Aviendha's, running away from Rand.

 

The girls can defend against his weaves, by using shields. What they can't do is cut his weaves, because they don't know where his are (nor does he knows where theirs are - the difference is that he will have a better knowledge of where they are likely to be, so can make a more informed guess when he cuts). If they see Rahvin can cut their weaves, I hardly think it's beyond them to try and cut through his.

 

Shields of what? How do you shield against your head being blown up? After all you won't know until it's already happened, as there are no signs apart from the blowing up of the head. They don't know how to cut his weaves because they don't know how to cut, not because they don't know where they are (which they don't know either). I don't see why he would have a better knowledge of where they are, he just knows how to cut them, so presumably he'll be cutting around himself all the time. They'll see their weaves get cut, but they won't know how he did it. They don't know what weave to make, how to make it, or what it's made of. And they don't have ages to figure it out either, because Rahvin's attack will be coming right back at them. When Rand's figured things out (like cutting Lanfear's weaves, or the odd shield that keeps everything out against Osangar), he's done it in the middle of a fight.

 

The first time Rand took on a male channeler head on, he didn't have the advantage of strength, nor surprise, knowledge of weaves, experience of fighting with the power, nor LTT's memories. He still won. Are you really suggesting that the girls, collectively, who are smart, strong, resourceful, and possessed of a plot shield, with the advantage of numbers, who are more experienced channelers than Rand was, with at least some experience of fighting the Chosen would be incapable of doing the same against someone weaker than Aginor or Ishamael? The deck is not stacked against them to nearly the same extent as it was in Rand's first fights, back in EotW. There is no reason why they should be regarded as utterly incapable of winning this fight.

 

Rand did not go into his fights against Aginor or Ishamael as the attacker. He was always defending himself. He won because there were always details that allowed him to, details that were unlikely to happen, details that he could not expect to happen. Of course the girls could kill Rahvin if a fight happened. Anybody can kill anybody with sufficient luck. The plot shield is what would allow them to win. Problem is, they can hardly go into a fight thinking that they'll win because the author is not about to let them die. As far as they know, they can die at any second. And the difference between Rand's early fights and this one, is that here, they have to go to him. If they all had Mat's luck, then I might be able to accept them depending on that luck to allow them to win the fight. But they don't.

 

I don't see why the commoners should be incapable of organising a rebellion. They might decide they don't care for the time being, of course. But when the drought ends, and Rand is still in power, they might decide to do something.

 

If it was limited to one city, it wouldn't be a problem. But if you're talking about a nation wide rebellion, then it's going to need some measure of organisation and leadership. I don't know if commoners, who are unlikely to know much outside of their local village, would be capable of doing that effectively. Especially against someone with the ressources that Rand has.

 

The heads on the tree are from runaways, for the most part. A group of Asha'man going rogue and trying to stop you from massacring their countrymen is a different beast to one or two slipping away in the night because they can't hack it. Not putting those who are likely to rebel on rebel-crushing duties doesn't help when all your men are still based in the same place - if word gets back about what's going on, expect at least some dissent. And while mass executions are not Rand's style, generally, it does rather limit what the Asha'man can do to help crush a rebellion if you won't turn them loose on the rebels. Some information gathering, perhaps?

 

Runaways or rebels, they're all traitors in the BT it seems. The certainly would end up the same. Maybe something like that could happen, but I haven't seen anything from the Ashaman to make me think it could. Granted, we haven't seen much of them, but that's just how I feel.

 

Well, if come TG he has no effective control of the country, then there is precious little point in him being there. He doesn't have the country, so he cannot use those people as soldiers at TG.

 

Once TG comes around, the people won't have a choice but to fight. Otherwise they die. In fact the world dies. From that perspective, it seems pretty meaningless to worry about who's the ruler of your nation. At the very least it can wait until the world is no longer in danger of complete destruction.

 

The problem is not that there is no difference in their battle skills, it is that the difference is not insurmountable and that Rand has won battles against worse odds. I'm not saying this would be a walk in the park, I'm saying that it is not impossible, nor even so hard as some like to make out. Rand fought Ishy in T'a'r with no experience of the Dream World. he won. Egwene has experience of T'a'r, and back up, yet would not be able to win? Really? Rand fought Ishamael with no knowledge of the Power back in EotW, and he won. Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne and maybe even Aviendha as well, all channelers with knowledge of the OP, cannot fight Rahvin? Looked at objectively, there is no real reason why Rand should have won all his fights but the girls should be incapable of doing the same.

 

Rand got lucky, and he had LTT, that's what allowed him to win (or at least survive until someone helped him out). If Egwene fights Rahvin in TAR alone, I would bet on Rahvin, but if she she fought him with back up then they should win (though there would probably be casualties). The reason why Rand won all his fights is because he had a plot shield. The girls would probably have the same, but they wouldn't know, and neither did he. But he never attacked a Forsaken willingly until Asmodean. The battle has to happpen in the first place for the girls to benefit from a plot shield.

 

Take away 1,2 and 4. Take away all his knowledge of the Power. Take away any assistance from other channelers. Then you have his first fight against Ishy. Well, all his fights against ishy, really - heonly had a strength advantage in the last fight.

 

Which means that taveren is important and there were always details, details that no could have foreseen, that allowed him to win. And in every one he was only defending not attacking. I can't see Rand deciding to go into a fight with Ishamael in the first three books, unless he has no choice. It's the same for me in the case of the supergirls and Rahvin, at least until they learn how to fight a male channeller.

 

All of these were disadvantages he had in his first fight with Ishy as well. He didn't know how to Travel until he arrived in Caemlyn. So Rand can overcome the same disadvantages as the women agaist the greatest of the Chosen, but they are incapable of doing the same against Rahvin? Do you really think you're being objective in your judgement?

 

If the books needs them to win, then yes, they could, despite all their disadvantages. But that's nothing to do with their abilities, and when deciding whether or not they should attack Rahvin, it'll be based on their abilities that they will decide what to do, not based on the book wanting them to win. Which they wouldn't know.

[David Selig]

The story could find a way to make them win against Rahvin, but could it find a way to make them think that they can beat him in the first place? The only way a fight between them could happen, is if they go after him. Would they really plan to go into a fight where they would need a stroke of luck to win in the first place?

Of course they would. All of the Supergirls have a lot more bravery than common sense. When has any of the Supergirls (or any main character in this series for that matter) ever thought about anything important "this is too dangerous" and decided not to do it?

[ElusiveAthena]

Birgitte has. Supposedly. In her past life. Or so she said to Elayne. But personally, I doubt it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

How about Egwene now trying to stopping Rand from breaking the seals? That kinda counts?

[Kahsm]

I think they mean stopping themselves in afterthought, not trying to stop other people. Everyone's always trying to stop someone else from doing something. Particularly between genders.

[MasterAblar]

The story could find a way to make them win against Rahvin, but could it find a way to make them think that they can beat him in the first place? The only way a fight between them could happen, is if they go after him. Would they really plan to go into a fight where they would need a stroke of luck to win in the first place?

Of course they would. All of the Supergirls have a lot more bravery than common sense. When has any of the Supergirls (or any main character in this series for that matter) ever thought about anything important "this is too dangerous" and decided not to do it?

 

There's reckless bravery, and there's pure stupidity. You don't willingly go into a fight which you have very little chance of winning unless you absolutely must. It would be far smarter of her to ask for help from someone who could even the odds a little. Such as Rand.

[XXX]

The story could find a way to make them win against Rahvin, but could it find a way to make them think that they can beat him in the first place? The only way a fight between them could happen, is if they go after him. Would they really plan to go into a fight where they would need a stroke of luck to win in the first place?

Of course they would. All of the Supergirls have a lot more bravery than common sense. When has any of the Supergirls (or any main character in this series for that matter) ever thought about anything important "this is too dangerous" and decided not to do it?

 

There's reckless bravery, and there's pure stupidity. You don't willingly go into a fight which you have very little chance of winning unless you absolutely must. It would be far smarter of her to ask for help from someone who could even the odds a little. Such as Rand.

 

Ask a man for help..the great Aes Sedai!!

[David Selig]

The story could find a way to make them win against Rahvin, but could it find a way to make them think that they can beat him in the first place? The only way a fight between them could happen, is if they go after him. Would they really plan to go into a fight where they would need a stroke of luck to win in the first place?

Of course they would. All of the Supergirls have a lot more bravery than common sense. When has any of the Supergirls (or any main character in this series for that matter) ever thought about anything important "this is too dangerous" and decided not to do it?

 

There's reckless bravery, and there's pure stupidity. You don't willingly go into a fight which you have very little chance of winning unless you absolutely must. It would be far smarter of her to ask for help from someone who could even the odds a little. Such as Rand.

Of course that sounds logical and obvious, but in WoT woman asking a man for help is the very last resort, usually they prefer facing a Forsaken on their own instead. See Egwene's reaction when Nynaeve suggested asking Rand to help dealing with Mesaana for example.

 

I am losing track of what exactly we are arguing here. My point the Supergirls could've beaten Rahvin without Rand's help. Wasn't that how the whole argument started many pages ago? Whether they would've asked Rand for help with is a different issue.

[Morsker]

So my question to everyone: Which characters really do it for you... and which just kinda suck? Doesn't have to be main characters. Tylee is one of my absolute favs and she's appeared in 2 books!

Tuon. And I really like your analysis here, of characters that don't change when they should. It explains a lot of why some characters bother me, even when they're noble and capable. Tuon has to change, but it's happening far too slowly for me as a reader to sympathize with.