Rand's final death

[Southpaw89]

I originally posted this on theoryland but didn't hear much response so just curious to what people would think on here. This is not a theory that is gonna go into every small viewing and prophecy in the book but will hit individual points about why I think Rand will be dead at the conclusion of AMoL.

 

A popular theory in the fandom at the moment is that Rand will die during AMoL and be resurrected by the end to save the die and then go into hiding. A few reasons for this belief.

 

1. The Finns - "To live you must die." This is an indication that Rand will be killed so the world will have to come together and work together until Rand can be resurrected back into the world to save the day.

 

2. The Dragon fang in the Emond's Field vision/viewing (can't remember which - This hints to some that Rand will live at the end in hiding as a farmer back in EF and the fang on the door indicates his survival.

 

3. Aviendha's trip into Rhuhidean's rings - hints that Rand, The Dragon, left at the end of the Last Battle and the world struggled without him.

 

 

My argument is that Rand will die, be resurrected by Nyneave, seal the Dark One and then die in the process and disappear but that what he did will inspire the world to rebuild anew and have hope. To counter point number 1, to live you must die does not have to be as literal as some may take it. You could incorporate point 2 with 1 in that after the Last Battle, Rand will die but yet he will still live with his memory. Lews Therin's memory was tained with what he did to his family and what he did by breaking the world with his madness. With Rand's sacrifice at the end, his blood and sacrifice will be the worlds salvation as they look upon that to work together to rebuild. The Dragon fang on the door of Emond's Field will be the new symbol of hope and not hate. Rand's memory will be what keeps him alive. Remember, the Finns don't always speak literal. Sometimes what we might take as literal might mean something deeper. With this, Rand's sacrifice will inspire the world to regain hope and rebuild. Robert Jordan always talked about how with fantasy, there can always be light around the corner after every dark day. This will be the ending of AMoL with the darkness being pushed away and even though the world will teeter on the edge of a blade with the Seanchan, the world will be safe from the dark and can begin to rebuild and make compromises. Now to point 3. This will not be long because we know that her visit to the rings may not be the certain future. It's just a possibility. The Dragon abandoning the people could mean that his sacrifice left the world alone and having to deal with issues alone and quite possibly not making the world as good of a place as people hoped (such as the situation with the Seanchan). The viewing of 3 woman, Min, Aviendha and Elayne on the boat with Rand's body and the funeral pyre are all relevant and I believe happen at the end after his last death (or could be after first death) but will be used as a sign of hope and optimism using his sacrifice to inspire the world to work towards a better tomorrow

[Bob T Dwarf]

I dont think we need to get more complicated than the original Arthurian Myth of the King who will return at a time of extreme need.

 

Arthur's ( Rand's ) body on a boat, sailing off into the mist and fog with three attendant women, and no clear indication if he's alive or if he's dead.

[Disco]

The more interesting question is why does Rand need "help" to die?

[baalsmistress]

Helping someone to die could be as simple as comforting them as they do.

 

Or it could imply ending of suffering.

 

No real need to be overly complex

[Eht Slat Meit]

Keep in mind that Nicola's foretelling seems to put Rand post-Last Battle as he who is dead yet lives. That doesn't really -sound- like resurrection to me, but I wouldn't say the metaphor is impossible.

 

Personally, I'm starting to think that Rand and the two women who help him wield Callandor are going to suffer total burnout - one of those women being Alivia, the other being Cadsuane. Their viewings seem to have this wicked symmetry... Cadsuane will teach him something he will not like; Alivia will help him die. From the Great Hunt we know that Cadsuane has a great deal of experience helping men recover from stilling, and Alivia has acquired a tremendous amount of grace after her enslavement as a damane. Both are exceptionally powerful, and Nynae and Moiraine have other roles to fulfill. There's no question of a burnout being far more traumatic on Rand... if he loses both saidin and the true power, it might be doubly destructive, and it most certainly would be the end of the power that made him what he was. Fisher King to Zen-Dragon Rand, Zen-Dragon Rand to Broken Champion.

 

Cadsuane will teach him how to live without the power, Alivia will show him how to live without the Dragon.

 

That's my guess anyway.

 

On a more cheery note, this suggests to me that Moridin's going to burn out as well via their link.

[Wantanswers]

1. The Finns - "To live you must die." This is an indication that Rand will be killed so the world will have to come together and work together until Rand can be resurrected back into the world to save the day.

The words of the Aelfinn don't indicate at all that Rand will be killed. On the contrary.

John was killed....

Bill has died....

The result is the same for John and Bill, they are both dead, but the cause is different. Killing implies violence; dying doesn't. Bill could have died of old age, of an heart attack, of a disease.

Although Rand is mentally 450 years old, I don't believe he will die of old age, because physically he's around 20 years. A heart attack or some disease would be a anti-climax, so we have to look for another way how he can die.

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow."

(The Dragon Reborn, Nightmares Walking)

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

(The Great Hunt, Discord)

I think, that if the Dragon dies, he will die of bloodshed.

[Southpaw89]

yeah "To live you must die" does not necessarily mean he'll be killed but I highly doubt he's gonna get malaria or trip and fall off a cliff to die. It's highly likely he'd be killed haha

[Wantanswers]

yeah "To live you must die" does not necessarily mean he'll be killed but I highly doubt he's gonna get malaria or trip and fall off a cliff to die. It's highly likely he'd be killed haha

Did you only read the first part of my post? Or don't you remember the old wounds that couldn't be healed, caused by Ba'alzamon and Fain?

[GYLD]

Keep in mind that Nicola's foretelling seems to put Rand post-Last Battle as he who is dead yet lives. That doesn't really -sound- like resurrection to me, but I wouldn't say the metaphor is impossible.

 

Personally, I'm starting to think that Rand and the two women who help him wield Callandor are going to suffer total burnout - one of those women being Alivia, the other being Cadsuane. Their viewings seem to have this wicked symmetry... Cadsuane will teach him something he will not like; Alivia will help him die. From the Great Hunt we know that Cadsuane has a great deal of experience helping men recover from stilling, and Alivia has acquired a tremendous amount of grace after her enslavement as a damane. Both are exceptionally powerful, and Nynae and Moiraine have other roles to fulfill. There's no question of a burnout being far more traumatic on Rand... if he loses both saidin and the true power, it might be doubly destructive, and it most certainly would be the end of the power that made him what he was. Fisher King to Zen-Dragon Rand, Zen-Dragon Rand to Broken Champion.

 

Cadsuane will teach him how to live without the power, Alivia will show him how to live without the Dragon.

 

That's my guess anyway.

 

On a more cheery note, this suggests to me that Moridin's going to burn out as well via their link.

 

Cadsuane is supposed to teach something not only to Rand, but the Asha'man too. Unless the rest of the Asha'man end up burned out and she somehow manages to help them all recover, it doesn't quite fit.

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

Cadsuane is supposed to teach something not only to Rand, but the Asha'man too. Unless the rest of the Asha'man end up burned out and she somehow manages to help them all recover, it doesn't quite fit.

 

If Cadsuane were to burn out -and- survive the Last Battle, she's going to have nothing but time to act in her only remaining area of expertise - teaching men how to cope without the Power. I can't see the Asha'man liking that one bit... respecting it, maybe, but not liking it.

[cookiecrisp]

I think the "thing" that Cadsuane is supposed to teach Rand and the Ashaman was that message that they were human.

[OptimusPrime]

The more interesting question is why does Rand need "help" to die?

 

My theory on that is that he has to die with the Dark One in him, so as to weaken the Dark One to the point where he can be resealed. I think the Dark One can possess True Power users and that Rands sacrifice is to force that possession and then die while the Dark One (or part of him, like Shaidar) is in his body with him. Rand wouldnt be able to take his own life at the time as he'd be wrestling for control, so he needs someone to kill him while all thats going on. Hello Callandor.

[nool]

I think the "thing" that Cadsuane is supposed to teach Rand and the Ashaman was that message that they were human.

 

Ditto that. Her major task, which she's now fulfilled was to make sure that Rand didn't turn into Rand Vader.

[Southpaw89]

she's going to teach them to be equal to the Aes Sedai and work together with them after the LB

[MattHildenbrandt]

na, she's done with the lessons. she told Min that her purpose was to make him feel emotion, or the world that he saved wouldn't be worth living in.

[Ferdawoon]

1. The Finns - "To live you must die." This is an indication that Rand will be killed so the world will have to come together and work together until Rand can be resurrected back into the world to save the day.

He was the Dragon, he died. Now he is back and the Dragon Reborn. Died, and lived again. LTT in his head "died" but lives again as a part of Rand, not as a separate conciuosness. Maybe he will get killed, someone Balefire the one responsible and Rand is back alive.

 

2. The Dragon fang in the Emond's Field vision/viewing (can't remember which - This hints to some that Rand will live at the end in hiding as a farmer back in EF and the fang on the door indicates his survival.

Well, the treaty Elayne sealed with Perrin, the Two Rivers will be the Dragon's Land, basicly. The tooth could just be their new flag as being the dragon's land. No reason to think Rand will live on there.

 

3. Aviendha's trip into Rhuhidean's rings - hints that Rand, The Dragon, left at the end of the Last Battle and the world struggled without him.

That could mean anything. Could mean that he went into a parallell world, could mean that he died and they just did not know, could mean he followed the Ogier to wherever they move next, could mean he use himself, or his lifethread, as a way to seal the Dark One. It could mean anything.

[Guest callmedestiny]

I have been pondering what the Finns said and I believe that Rand has already died.

 

Ok, bear with me as I explain! If you compare the premise of the series to Hindu/Buddhist philosophy, the world is cyclical (the wheel) and from what Herid Fel believes (quoted from a WoT wiki page) "the Dark One's prison must be whole once more when the Wheel of Time turns and the Age of Legends comes again, when the Aes Sedai of that Age create the Bore in the first place." He indicates a circle with his pipe.

 

-Hindu philosophy is rooted in the belief of births and rebirths so is the Wheel and the pattern in WoT.

 

-Hindu philosophy touches on the belief that when the world is in too much chaos it will implode, collapsing in on itself only to rebuild and begin anew. The world was broken by chaos and began again. I know this is a little bit of a stretch here, but the age was ended and heralded a new age; a new turn of the wheel. The Third Age will end and be a Memory of Light.

 

If you take these similar elements and apply it to Rand and what the Finns said that “You must die to live again” in essence Rand DID die on Dragon Mount. A Buddhist and Hindu belief is that the Ego, the sense of self, must die in order to attain enlightenment, to become one with the creator. BUT you can only become part of the true essence of life only if your sense of self dies.

 

Rand went to Dragon Mount and had a deep discussion with himself and LTT and became enlightened as to what he needed to do and what he needed to be. He is no longer Rand al’Thor, he is now The Dragon, as the Dragon was, as he is, and must be. How many incarnations are there of The Dragon? Rand is now the embodiment of them all. The world needs their knowledge to know how to defeat the DO and the Forsaken.

 

The voice that was in Rand’s head and the knowledge only came in spurts when Rand was not himself, only when he was a part of the Void did he suddenly *know* forgotten weaves. Now The Dragon has full access to it all, because he is and has always been The Dragon.

 

Perhaps in the end there will be the death of The Dragon and Rand will come back as himself, but I don’t think he can. Rand will have fulfilled the prophecy and saved the WoT so that time can continue, but there will have to be major sacrifice. Will people honestly be satisfied if Rand DOESN’T die? Would RJ want to have everything wrapped up in a nice bow at the end? I don’t think he has ever said there will be complete closure.

[Entreri]

After Rand defeats Mr. Shai'tan, he will die. How you ask? Choking on a pretzel while ducking the oncoming shoes.

[Guest ScubaSteve]

Hello, first time poster long time lurker.

 

How would everone feel if Rand had a Frodo type ending. After sealing the bore he will be stilled and "tainted" emotionally somehow. So he'll leave with the Ogier when they open the book of translation and return to their world. This would explain why he isn't present in the future visions that Avi saw. idk, seems like a long stretch but worth throwing out there.

[Randommer]

Hello, first time poster long time lurker.

 

How would everone feel if Rand had a Frodo type ending. After sealing the bore he will be stilled and "tainted" emotionally somehow. So he'll leave with the Ogier when they open the book of translation and return to their world. This would explain why he isn't present in the future visions that Avi saw. idk, seems like a long stretch but worth throwing out there.

Welcome!

No that's actually a fairly common theory. I personally don't believe it 'cos I don't see Rand abandonning his responsibilities or his kids like that, but I suppose there could be some random reason why he really had to.

 

I've always thought it might happen that Rand would die and fight the LB as a hero of TAR, and then return to TAR with the heroes and stay dead. I mean does anyone else remember that RJ quote about him that Harriet poignantly used at RJ's funeral? Or did anyone else listen to that music BS said suited the end of AMoL? It really had a 'the hero is dead but we won' kinda feel. Reminded me of the music from when Buffy died. And...yeah I really am a nerd.

[Luckers]

na, she's done with the lessons. she told Min that her purpose was to make him feel emotion, or the world that he saved wouldn't be worth living in.

 

Cadsuane's never done with lessons. She may have taught him that one thing, but that won't stop her looking to teach him more.

[crobins321]

Ive looked through a few threads and this seems the best place to post this opinion. After Avienda's vision in ToM, and i do understand it may not come to pass as it was, there were a few things missing that struck me as relevant to Rands fate. Namely Rands women were not in the vision at all. Avienda's kids had never met him and she was no where around, Elaynes daughter was on the throne and there was no mention of Min at all so i assume she is mia. I know it isnt definite but it would seem to me this implies Rand and the others are dead, i would say just gone but I dont see them just ignoring their kids completely. If it were just Rand dead the women would be there. As channelers they would all have long lives so old age doesnt seem a likely explanation for their deaths, not to mention one of the Aiel knew Rand. So unless Aviendas vision is some kind of impossibility theyre all killed during or shortly after TG. I think. Maybe. Makes sense to me anyway